In article >, "Peter A.
Nemenyi" > writes:

>Mr. Stowe wrote:
>
>>Flim-Flam Man and now a man who promotes extreme right-wing,
>>conspiratorial views of 20th Century history! My money is on Nemenyi
>>turning out to be their leader. He's the only one of them besides Benke,
>>perhaps, who could find his rear end with both hands.
>>Sam Stowe
>
>Whatever happened with your earlier opinion? :-)
>
>

This is great! I sent that to you back, let's see, about last September or
October, wasn't it? Since then, I've had the opportunity to watch you in
action on this list. Your behavior and political beliefs are consistent
with the Silly Valley crowd. While you are welcome to the latter, even if
I find the blatant anti-Semitism outrageous, you are fair game for the
former. And you are no dispassionate historian, as this latest post
reveals. You didn't even try to note that I sent it to you quite some time
ago. Nice try, Mr. Nemenyi, but you still don't get that cigar.
Sam Stowe

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

> It should be obvious that having a smoking section in a restaurant
>is like having a urinating section in a swimming pool.
>
>Joe Szalai

Very apt, if unappetizing, analogy.
Sam Stowe

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett

In article >, S or G Farkas
> writes:

>I just spoke with my son, who lives in Greenville, NC and they have no
>electricity.
>
>Gabor D. Farkas
>
>

It was a little rougher here than anyone had really expected. We had high
winds gusting upwards of 50-60 miles per hour, heavy rains, flash flooding
and tornadoes. One of the tornadoes struck the N.C. State Fairgrounds
about a half mile or so from my home and ripped the roof off of the Gov.
Jim Hunt Horse Complex.There were about 1,400 people inside at the time,
along with 400 horses, but no one was hurt. The tornado then struck a
neighborhood just west of mine, dropped big trees all over the place
without striking any houses. It was hard driving home from work yesterday
because the roads around my neighborhood were blocked by fallen trees and
power lines.

Gabor, Greenville is about an hour and a half drive east of here and they
probably took the brunt of the storm. The eye passed just west of there
late last night. This morning's News & Observer said that travel around
the Greenville area became impossible after about 7 p.m. because of
flooding and downed trees. I hope your son doesn't live near the Tar
River, although at this time of year the river usually isn't anywhere near
flood stage.
Sam Stowe

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett

In article >, Henri Joseph
Toulouse-Szalai > writes:

> Well, in any case, it's not art compared to those beautiful
>paint-by-number masterpieces that adorn the walls of your house.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>

Darn it, Joe, those little dogs playing poker never cease to give me a
chuckle when I come through the front door. At least I can afford walls.
At least you can afford the bandwith to quote tiresomely pretentious
has-beens like Sontag. To each according to their needs, from each
according to their gullibility.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- Keep those Hungarian recipes flowing and nobody gets hurt.

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett

Indeed it is. Now Zoli Szekely throws in his weight with:

>And also see the clear suggestion that X made about Y: Y
>"believes in international Jewish conspiracies", therefore
>Y is a nazi! Is it really that clear, that anybody that
>"believes in international Jewish conspiracies" must be a
>nazi, a potential mass murderer? I don't think so. And I
>also doubt that non-standard views about the history
>imply  "belief in international Jewish conspiracies". That's
>just simple bullshit.

Q.e.d., after all Mr. Szekely is a ).

Next step: a posting about Z.O. G. (Zionist Occupying Government).

Gabor D. Farkas

At 03:38 AM 7/14/96 -0400, Sam Stowe  wrote:

>Gabor, Greenville is about an hour and a half drive east of here and they
>probably took the brunt of the storm. The eye passed just west of there
>late last night. This morning's News & Observer said that travel around
>the Greenville area became impossible after about 7 p.m. because of
>flooding and downed trees. I hope your son doesn't live near the Tar
>River, although at this time of year the river usually isn't anywhere near
>flood stage.

There is no problem there (at least with my son's condo), the electricity
was restored by 4AM Saturday morning and people are recovering.

Hungarian content: there was a severe storm in Hungary this summer, it
damaged a large portion of some crops.

Gabor D. Farkas

In my former posting (Sat, 13 Jul 1996 16:32:35 +0200), I wrote:

>As a matter of fact, "spenot", "krumpli" and "nokedli" are loan-words
>from German and they belong to common parlance. Nevertheless, compare Hung.
>"nokedli" with Austrian-German "Nockel", German "Nudel", Engl. "noodles" as
>well as  Spanish "noclos" (it has a tilde on the n, pr. nyoklos) and
>you'll realize  that's all the same Italian pasta, i.e. "gnocchi".

On  Sat, 13 Jul 1996, Ms. Norma Rudinsky > wrote:

> And GALUSKA is a Hungarian borrowing from Slovak HALUSKY (= plural
> since no one ever eats just one).  The S has a soft mark, making it
> SH the same as the Hungarian S.  Whether the Slovak word is related
> to Italian gnocchi seems unlikely etymologically, but the thing
> itself is very similar to the German noodle types obviously.  (I'm
> assuming it isn't a Slovak borrowing from Hungarian because of the
> Slavic ending KA.)

It seems my posting was misread: I did not relate Ital. gnocchi to Hung.
galuska, far be it from me!

But let me stress the fact it would be difficult indeed to consider
galuska as a borrowing from Slovak halushka, since the Slovak
trailing h- does  never turn into g- in Hungarian.  Compare for
example the family name Hunyadi  < Slovak hunya 'a raw
masculine clothing; durva haziszottesbol keszitett ferfiruhadarab ',
where /h/ remains /h/.

According to the Historical-Etymological Dictionary of the Hungarian
Language (i.e.  A Magyar Nyelv Tortenelmi-Etimologiai Szotara,
briefly TESz, vol. I page 1021) the word "galuska" originates from
Polish, namely from the dial. word "galuszka" (mainly used in its
plural form, i.e. "galuszki"). Yet there are also the Czech and
Slovak forms "haluska" (pl. "halusky", pron. halushki);  Ucranian,
Bielorussian and Russian galushka, etc.

The famous Slavist Istvan Kniezsa, in his book "A magyar nyelv szlav
jovevenyszavai" (Bpest 1972 - 2nd ed., vol. I page 180) wrote:

>[Hung. galuska] from Polish Galuszka (regularly Pl. galuszki) =
>"Mehlkloss" (i.e.: "dumplings")...  Originally the word meant "Kugelchen,
>Koepfchen" (that is: "small ball, little head") as -- e.g. -- in
>"galuszka maku"  (i.e. "poppy head, poppy gall", Hung. "makfej").
>The Slavic words are related to Latin galla "gall-nut" and/or to [Old] Italian
 galla
>"gall-nut, growth, abscess, blister" possibly through German "Galle"
>of same meaning.

According to the TESz, the first borrowing of the word galuska took
possibly place in the Higher Tisza (Tibiscus) region. Later it spread
all over Hungary, although being still considered as a "vernacular
word"  belonging to the dialects of North-Eastern Hungary. It appears
for the  first time in a document from Sarospatak dated 1683.

As Zoli Fekete > sagaciously noted, in the name of
some particular dishes related to regional culinary traditions there
is a partial lack of interchangeability between "nokedli" and "galuska", like
for instance in grizgaluska and in majgaluska. This is probably due
to the fact these culinary specialities are tied to a Hungarian region more
than another.

(BTW: the word "griz" -- i.e. "groats, grits, semolina" -- is also a
German loanword, the correct Hungarian word for it is "dara, buzadara").

It should also be noted that we may create compound words with "galuska",
probably as a consequence of the fact this word has a more
"Hungarian" ring. In the case of nokedli instead, we'd have to say "grizes
nokedli" and "majas nokedli".  I may be wrong, but IMHO this may be
explained by the fact that "nokedli" sounds "foreign" to an Hungarian
ear, thus making any compound word sound strange.

In the Csango dialect the word "galuska" -- according to Szinnyei
Jozsef's Magyar TajSzotar (MTSz, Budapest 1893-1901) --  has the
meaning of "cabbage stuffing", while the Dictionary of the Csango
Dialect  (Yrio Wichmanns Woerterbuch des ungarischen Moldauer
Nordcsango- und des Hetfaluer Csangodialektes nebst grammatikalischen
Aufzeichnungen und Texten aus dem Nordcsangodialekt. Helsinki, 1936)
considers it as a synonym of "toltott kaposzta".  The origin of
these meanings has to be sought in the Romanian word galusca =
"toltott kaposzta", i.e. "stuffed cabbage", whence Moldavian geluska
of same meaning.

Although the Hungarian words galuska and nokedli are not directly
related to the Italian language, they both go back to Latin words and
perhaps to the specialities of the Latin (> Italian) cuisine.
Hypothetically speaking, the "galuska" or "nokedli" could be the
original and most ancient recipe of the Italian pasta as it was
taught to the Germans -- illo tempore -- by Julius Caesar's legions
(together with other Roman specialities as for instance "puliszka" or
 "mamaliga", a
sort of porridge which was originally made with ground millet, while today
it is made with ground maize).

Up to now we were told that Italian pasta was brought in Italy from
China by Marco Polo (1254-1323). Yet, if we bring our assumption to
an extreme, pasta could be an Italian (Roman?) invention indeed,
while the Chinese contribution would be limited to the shape of the spaghetti.

^^^^^^
Paolo Agostini >
  Finis totius et partis est removere viventes in hac
  vita de statu miseriae et perducere ad statum felicitatis
      (Dante, Epist. XIII,39)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>Q.  What happened to the Pope when he went to Mount Olive?
>A.  Popeye beat the crap out of him.

First la Tournier and now you. What is it with the trend toward religious
jokes in this forum all of a sudden?
Sam "There's a priest, a rabbi and a minister all together on this
airplane..." Stowe

"When you find the one you might become,
Remember part of me is you..."
 -- "Simple Song", Lyle Lovett

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, Paolo Agostini > wrote:
> (BTW: the word "griz" -- i.e. "groats, grits, semolina" -- is also a
> German loanword, the correct Hungarian word for it is "dara, buzadara").

 But while I could be convinced to say "tejbegriz/grizpapi" for
'tejbepapi', the "dara" version would be cruel and unusal pronunciation
;-( - I'd rather be hummy[*] than correct in these cases ;-)... Some good
humorist (Karinthy?) wrote a great little essay about the peculiarities
such as spelling 'burgonya' for 'krumpli'; I wish I had that tome with me
here - but Paolo is doing a remarkable job in lieu of having such!

[*] I know that's not a correct word, either :-)

> (together with other Roman specialities as for instance "puliszka"
 Having come from Szabolcs-Szatmar on my mind it lives as a 'tirpak'
specialty (although I'm aware of the Romanian origin). Incidentally, I
believe puliszka (the maizen kind) is the most delicious meal known to
mankind, despite - or perhaps because - of it's plebejus reputation!

 With the more important questions out of the way, on to a more serious
note: is the Hungarian Hunyad placename (that has a perhaps derivative
Romanian equivalent, which is where the famous Hunyadis came from) of
Slovak origin indeed?

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 14:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Zoli Fekete
> wrote:

>  With the more important questions out of the way, on to a more serious
> note: is the Hungarian Hunyad placename (that has a perhaps derivative
> Romanian equivalent, which is where the famous Hunyadis came from) of
> Slovak origin indeed?

Yes, it is. Peruse the best toponomastic lexicon ever published in
Hungary, i.e. Kiss, L.: Foldrajzi Nevek Etimologiai Szotara (briefly:
FNESz, Akademiai Kiado, Budapest 1988) and you'll find the following:

> Hunya: helyseg Bekes megyeben ...
> Hunyad: ld. Banffyhunyad, Vajdahunyad...
> Hunyad-orom: 350 m magas domb a budai Janos-hegytol
kelet-delkeletre
> Hunyadvara l. Vajdahunyad
> Hunyad varmegye l. Vajdahunyad

> The Hunya~Hu'nya is of Slovakian origin, it originates from Slovak.
> huna (with hachek, pr. hunya) "raw clothing" (pply. "darocbol vagy gyapjas
> birkaborrol keszult felsoruha; pokroc")

Best regards

Paolo
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Paolo Agostini >

>
> Indeed it is. Now Zoli Szekely throws in his weight with:
>
> >And also see the clear suggestion that X made about Y: Y
> >"believes in international Jewish conspiracies", therefore
> >Y is a nazi! Is it really that clear, that anybody that
> >"believes in international Jewish conspiracies" must be a
> >nazi, a potential mass murderer? I don't think so. And I
> >also doubt that non-standard views about the history
> >imply  "belief in international Jewish conspiracies". That's
> >just simple bullshit.
>
> Q.e.d., after all Mr. Szekely is a ).
>
> Next step: a posting about Z.O. G. (Zionist Occupying Government).
>
> Gabor D. Farkas
>

Well, it semms to me Doctor Farkas joined the camp
of the late Mr. Marcuse. That's right with me. But
don't forget, that Mr. Marcuse is going to be a
piece of the detracted history of "the ugly last
century" in a couple of years.

So be it,                                 Sz. Zoli

> >And also see the clear suggestion that X made about Y: Y
> >"believes in international Jewish conspiracies", therefore
> >Y is a nazi! Is it really that clear, that anybody that
> >"believes in international Jewish conspiracies" must be a
> >nazi, a potential mass murderer? I don't think so. And I
> >also doubt that non-standard views about the history
> >imply  "belief in international Jewish conspiracies". That's
> >just simple bullshit.

To make a point let me change one single word in this
passage, "conspiracies" (which word, let's face it, has a
rather unclear meaning) to "solidarity":

== Y "believes in international Jewish solidarity", therefore
== Y is a nazi! Is it really that clear, that anybody that
== "believes in international Jewish solidarity" must be a
== nazi, a potential mass murderer?
==
== That's just simple bullshit.

Do you believe me now?

Take care,                                        Sz. Zoli

P.S. Anyway, I really would like to believe in "international
Hungarian solidarity". Does anything like this exist?

At 04:49 PM 7/14/96 +0000, Paolo Agostini  wrote:

> The origin of
>these meanings has to be sought in the Romanian word galusca =
>"toltott kaposzta", i.e. "stuffed cabbage", whence Moldavian geluska
>of same meaning.

If you ask any Romanian, there is no Moldavian language. It is an invention
of the Soviet Union, after the annexation of Bessarabia and renaming it to
Moldavia (also changing the alphabet to cyrillic - hence the two different
spellings).

Gabor D. Farkas

An interesting thread began with Joe Szalai's question
concerning Gundel Restaurant. Because he also mentioned
George Lang, the restaurant's new owner and the renowned
author of the monumental "Hungarian Cuisine," I got into
the act because for years I have been aware of what I
still think is a measurement error in his recipe for
"galuska." Then questions of names began to surface.
E.g., "galuska" vs. "nokedli." Johanne L. Tournier and I
even exchanged personal e-mail about this as well. I
remember telling her that nokedli is just another name
for galuska (tha latter of which I have always suspected
to have been of Slavic origin and the former of which
I have always believed to have been derived from the
Italian "gnocchi" - thanks Paolo Agostini -), but I also
remember mentioning that curious things happen to the
names of some foods in Hungarian cookbooks. Even though
I am a native speaker (originally), I still find myself
almost resenting this insistence on "elegance" every once
in a blue moon, as we sometimes say in English. Just once
I would love to see "paprikas krumpli" called that instead
of "burgonya paprikas."

Things get curiouser and curiouser (to borrow from "Alice
in Wonderland") when one reflects on the fact that a thing
is called paprikas not because paprika is added to it, but
because sour cream is added at the last moment. There are,
of course, exceptions to this rule, e.g., paprikas krumpli,
not to mention burgonya paprikas . . . But even native
speakers can run into frustrations . . . I remember wanting
to find a recipe for "fasirt" or "fasirozott" for years,
it seems. None of the many Hungarian cookbooks I have
appear to include that wondrous ground meat patty I ate
with such delight as a child. No sir. Finally, out of
desparation, I wrote an aunt in Hungary. She promptly
informed me that in Hungarian cookbooks it's usually called
"vagdalt hus." Vagdalt hus? What will they think of next!
I remember coming home from school and asking my grandmother
innumerable times "What's for dinner?" Never ever did she
say "Vagdalt hus . . ." But that was a long time ago.

All kiddig aside, I know that no language is totally logical
(otherwise in English, for example, we wouldn't drive on
the parkway and park on the driveway . . .), but Hungarian
cookbooks, with their fetish for elegance, sometimes take
the cake . . . no pun intended? Could it be that many of
our *other* disagreements stem from but semantics? Perhaps,
but that should be the topic of another thread . . .

Steven C. Scheer

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sat, 13 Jul 1996, Steven C. Scheer wrote:
> Things get curiouser and curiouser (to borrow from "Alice
> in Wonderland") when one reflects on the fact that a thing
> is called paprikas not because paprika is added to it, but
> because sour cream is added at the last moment.

 NO, NO, NO! I've always considered the tejfo2l spoiling the real paprikas
to be an abomination ;-( (true, many restaurants do it - but what do they
know)...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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At 05:00 AM 7/14/96 -0400, Sam Stowe wrote:

>At least you can afford the bandwith to quote tiresomely pretentious
>has-beens like Sontag.

You should count your blessings, Sam.  Piss me off and I'll start quoting
Andrea Dworkin.  I'm sure you'd get a kick out of her.

Joe Szalai

At 07:54 AM 7/14/96 -0400, Slyboots Sam wrote:

>In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:
>
>>Q.  What happened to the Pope when he went to Mount Olive?
>>A.  Popeye beat the crap out of him.
>
>First la Tournier and now you. What is it with the trend toward religious
>jokes in this forum all of a sudden?
>Sam "There's a priest, a rabbi and a minister all together on this
>airplane..." Stowe

I'm a serious man, Sam.  I don't have time for jokes, religious or
otherwise.   And please, don't blame me for Popeye's machismo.

Joe Szalai

A wise man hears one word and understands two.
                               Yiddish Proverb

At 06:26 AM 7/14/96 -0700, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

>Indeed it is. Now Zoli Szekely throws in his weight with:
<snip>
>Next step: a posting about Z.O. G. (Zionist Occupying Government).

Thanks a lot for including someone who is probably anti-semitic in a list
that I'm supposed to be a member of.  I would have thought that you'd be a
bit more sensitive about these issues.

Joe Szalai

At 02:02 PM 7/14/96 -0400,Joe Szalai wrote:

>Thanks a lot for including someone who is probably anti-semitic in a list
>that I'm supposed to be a member of.  I would have thought that you'd be a
>bit more sensitive about these issues.

I hope you are joking. I don't joke with this topic.

The thread was about new additions to the list, list we all belong to. I
hope you don't identify with some of the new list posters.

Gabor d. Farkas

Joe Szalai writes:

> Thanks a lot for including someone who is probably anti-semitic in a list
> that I'm supposed to be a member of.  I would have thought that you'd be a
> bit more sensitive about these issues.

Goodness me, Joe! Are you calling me names? If you are
talking about me, I would like to assure you, I am
probably not an anti-semitic. Probably I am a human
being, anyway, so I'm outta here, you guess why.

Take care:                                 Sz. Zoli

Hi, Steven and Everyone!

At 23:11 13/07/96 GMT, Steven Scheer wrote:
>An interesting thread began with Joe Szalai's question
>concerning Gundel Restaurant. Because he also mentioned
>George Lang, the restaurant's new owner and the renowned
>author of the monumental "Hungarian Cuisine," I got into
>the act because for years I have been aware of what I
>still think is a measurement error in his recipe for
>"galuska." Then questions of names began to surface.
>E.g., "galuska" vs. "nokedli."

<snip snip>

>Things get curiouser and curiouser (to borrow from "Alice
>in Wonderland") when one reflects on the fact that a thing
>is called paprikas not because paprika is added to it, but
>because sour cream is added at the last moment. There are,
>of course, exceptions to this rule, e.g., paprikas krumpli,
>not to mention burgonya paprikas . . . But even native
>speakers can run into frustrations . . . I remember wanting
>to find a recipe for "fasirt" or "fasirozott" for years,

I don't suppose you could forward the recipe for *fasirt* or *fasirozott* or
*vagdalt hus*? I couldn't find that in my recipe books either, although my
copy of *The Art of Hungarian Cooking* by Paula Pogany Bennett and Velma
Clark contains a recipe for chopped chicken breast, called *vagdalt
csirkemell*, which I suspect is probably a related critter.

(By the way, Zoli, I wouldn't mind a copy of the recipe for *puliszka* as
well. What is it? Is it similar to mamaliga?)

>it seems. None of the many Hungarian cookbooks I have
>appear to include that wondrous ground meat patty I ate
>with such delight as a child. No sir. Finally, out of
>desparation, I wrote an aunt in Hungary. She promptly
>informed me that in Hungarian cookbooks it's usually called
>"vagdalt hus." Vagdalt hus? What will they think of next!
>I remember coming home from school and asking my grandmother
>innumerable times "What's for dinner?" Never ever did she
>say "Vagdalt hus . . ." But that was a long time ago.

Steven, your story reminds me of one of my own. Since my family wasn't
Hungarian, the only Hungarian snack or dessert which I encountered as a
youngster were *kifli*, which were made with different flavored fillings by
a company in Bethlehem, Penna., which put them out in boxes which had the
Hungarian coat of arms on the package. My favorite was the apricot kifli.
Well, I had a friend in Cleveland, Ohio, a second-generation
Hungarian-American. His parents, of course, had emigrated from the old
country. I remember telling him about these wonderful kifli, but he
indicated that he didn't have any idea what I was talking about. I was quite
proud of myself that I knew something Hungarian that he wasn't familiar
with. The next year, when I went out to see him again, I took a box of
kifli, which I proudly presented to him. He looked at them and said, "Oh,
these are kifli! My mother calls them *cookies*!" Boy, was my balloon punctured
!

<snip again>

>Steven C. Scheer
>
>
Glad everyone survived the hurricane! It was just a windy rainstorm by the
time we got it last night here in Nova Scotia. We didn't even lose electric
power.

Tisztelettel,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:
> (By the way, Zoli, I wouldn't mind a copy of the recipe for *puliszka* as
> well. What is it? Is it similar to mamaliga?)
 I can't tell, for I don't know the latter (although Paolo said they are
the same, didn't he?). Basically, it's just 'kukoricadara' (corn meal, aka
maize grit for you non-Americans) cooked well. It's the "cooking well"
part I'm having a bit of a trouble doing myself - it requires some special
skill at swirling, it appears ;-( (so I've made a solemn vow to only marry
someone who can do that right :-)). Then you 'szaggat' (cut ?) to your
taste and add sour creme and cottage cheese, perhaps with fried bacon,
plus side dishes like 'diszno1toros' or somesuch (although I ususally skip
the latter additions)...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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Dear fellow-listmembers,

Gabor Farkas rightly comments that most Romanians would probably deny
the existence of a "Moldovan" language, but...

Just to complicate some of the other things he mentions in his post:

The use of the Cyrillic alphabet to write Romanian was not introduced
for the first time by the Soviet authorities with their "Moldavian SSR"
but grew naturally out of the fact that the Romanians were Orthodox
Christians, and many of their priests and hierarchs were Slav or used
the Slavonic Liturgical language (is it no longer correct to call it "Old
Church Slavonic"?  I'm a bit hazy on this).  So for a long time the Romanian
language, when it was written, was written in Cyrillic, indeed, I believe
that during 1848 the official usage in the then Moldavia (as opposed to
Wallachia) was still Cyrillic so the revolutionary tricoleur (a la France)
had the inscription "Dreptare" on it in both alphabets.  The switch over
to Latin letters was finalized as part of the latinity emphasized by the
national movement originating among the Uniates of Transylvania.

The first (?) annexation of Bessarabia by Russia happened during Napoleon's
era, and Romania only got it back thanks to the collapse of Russia during
WWI.  Whether it had been ruled by Russians before then ever is more than
I can say without digging in books that are in the office, but certainly
it was also part of the Ottoman dominated borderlands between Muscovy and
the Ottoman empire for centuries.

I don't know whether the Romanians who want to will succeed in convincing
the Moldovans that they are "really" Romanians, but it could be interesting.
After all, Czechs never convinced Slovaks that they were "Czechoslovaks,"
did they?

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

Re Sam Stowe's characterizing Joe Szalai's analogy of smoking in a
restaurant to urinating in a swimming pool as an "apt if unappetizing
analogy"--

Honestly, if you could see what malignant lungs look like, you'd find a
little urine in your pool water quite appetizing by comparison.

Burian

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, Burian wrote:
> Re Sam Stowe's characterizing Joe Szalai's analogy of smoking in a
> restaurant to urinating in a swimming pool as an "apt if unappetizing
> analogy"--
>
> Honestly, if you could see what malignant lungs look like, you'd find a
> little urine in your pool water quite appetizing by comparison.

 Not to mention that drinking from the swimming pool looks a lot less
essential than breathing ;-(!

 In reply to someone implying that civilization may only come to Hungary
when non-smoking sections are available, I should note that they were not
that hard to find most any places second-class and above. I find it
unlikely that during the few years I haven't visited such establishments
back home the situation would've gotten so much worse. In fact traditionally
most restaurants had better compartmentalized smoking/non-smoking halves
than what I can see around my host city here (where the idea of
non-smoking restaurants is often attacked as Stalinist-Orwellian ploy,
incidentally ;-()!
 On the other hand, one of the paramount achievements of the western
customer civilization seems to be increasing cigarette sales on the
liberated territories (to offset the declining consumption on home
grounds). And this comes together with well-financed assaults by
"smoker's right" champions like Philip-Morris...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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At 04:19 PM 7/14/96 -0300, Johanne wrote:

>I don't suppose you could forward the recipe for *fasirt* or *fasirozott* or
>*vagdalt hus*? I couldn't find that in my recipe books either, although my
>copy of *The Art of Hungarian Cooking* by Paula Pogany Bennett and Velma
>Clark contains a recipe for chopped chicken breast, called *vagdalt
>csirkemell*, which I suspect is probably a related critter.

My fasirt recipe (from memory-amounts as desired by taste):

Mix ground meat (pork, usually) with white bread (previously soaked in
water), whole egg, chopped onions, paprike, salt and pepper (some add other
spices). Make patties and fry them in lard (or oil) until dark brown. You
can also make a big piece out of it and bake it in the oven. In this case
many people put a  whole hard egg (or several) in the middle, that's the
surprise (when you find it).

>(By the way, Zoli, I wouldn't mind a copy of the recipe for *puliszka* as
>well. What is it? Is it similar to mamaliga?)

Ma~ma~liga~ is the Romanian word for puliszka. In many Romanian villages it
is cooked very hard, then cut with a string into slices, like bread.

>Steven, your story reminds me of one of my own. Since my family wasn't
>Hungarian, the only Hungarian snack or dessert which I encountered as a
>youngster were *kifli*, which were made with different flavored fillings by
>a company in Bethlehem, Penna., which put them out in boxes which had the
>Hungarian coat of arms on the package. My favorite was the apricot kifli.
>Well, I had a friend in Cleveland, Ohio, a second-generation
>Hungarian-American. His parents, of course, had emigrated from the old
>country. I remember telling him about these wonderful kifli, but he
>indicated that he didn't have any idea what I was talking about. I was quite
>proud of myself that I knew something Hungarian that he wasn't familiar
>with. The next year, when I went out to see him again, I took a box of
>kifli, which I proudly presented to him. He looked at them and said, "Oh,
>these are kifli! My mother calls them *cookies*!" Boy, was my balloon
punctured!

In Kolozsvar kifli meant half moon shaped white rolls, delicious with
butter-milk (my lunch and dinner, when I was a student).

Gabor D. Farkas

At 04:32 PM 7/14/96 EDT, Hugh Agnew wrote:

>
>Gabor Farkas rightly comments that most Romanians would probably deny
>the existence of a "Moldovan" language, but...

[snip]

It all sounds right, based on what I remember.

>I don't know whether the Romanians who want to will succeed in convincing
>the Moldovans that they are "really" Romanians, but it could be interesting.
>After all, Czechs never convinced Slovaks that they were "Czechoslovaks,"
>did they?

I believe it is a different story. Czechs and Slovaks always considered
themselves to be different. Moldavians (who speak Romanian) always
considered themselves to be Romanians. However, there is a large number of
Russians in the same area and they prefer to be called Moldavians. I think
their main protector is General Lebed, now Yeltsin's right-hand man. He is
the one who de-facto divided Moldavia into two parts (on the two banks of
the Dniester river), Russian speaking on the East bank and Romanian speaking
on the West bank.

Gabor D. Farkas

On Sat Jul 13 12:52:51 EDT 1996 in HUNGARY #727, Norma Rudinsky asked:

>What do Hungarians call bryndza?  In Germany it's Liptauer cheese, from
>the Liptov region which commercialized it.

Juhtu'ro' (sheep cheese) or lipto'i tu'ro'  (Cheese from Lipto', a county in
the former Hungarian Kingdom, now part of Slovakia).  The latter name is the
same as in German.  Its use may have spread to Austria during the centuries
of common history.

Ferenc

At 04:20 PM 7/14/96 -0400, Zoli Fekete wrote:

>On Sat, 13 Jul 1996, Steven C. Scheer wrote:
>> Things get curiouser and curiouser (to borrow from "Alice
>> in Wonderland") when one reflects on the fact that a thing
>> is called paprikas not because paprika is added to it, but
>> because sour cream is added at the last moment.
>
> NO, NO, NO! I've always considered the tejfo2l spoiling the real paprikas
>to be an abomination ;-( (true, many restaurants do it - but what do they
>know)...

Zoli,

If there is such a thing as a 'House Un-Hungarian Activities Committee', I'm
sure they'd have your number.  Not putting sour cream in paprikas is heretical!

And, by the way, you don't have 'real paprikas' until you add the sour
cream.  All you've really got is po:rko:lt.  Of course, there's nothing
wrong with po:rko:lt, just don't call it paprikas.

Joe Szalai

At 11:11 PM 7/13/96 GMT, Steven C. Scheer wrote:

>Things get curiouser and curiouser (to borrow from "Alice
>in Wonderland") when one reflects on the fact that a thing
>is called paprikas not because paprika is added to it, but
>because sour cream is added at the last moment. There are,
>of course, exceptions to this rule, e.g., paprikas krumpli,
>not to mention burgonya paprikas . . .

I guess you haven't seen Elek Magyar's recipe for New Potatoes with Paprika
and Sour Cream (U'j burgonya'bo'l, tejfo:llel) in "The Gourmet's Cook Book".
It sure looks like a paprikas dish to me!

Joe Szalai

Just to  throw a  wrench into  the discussion.  Galuska and
    nokedli are two different things where I come from.  In Bacska
    (southern central Hungary)galuska is used in soups (like griz-
    galuska and majasgaluska). Nokedli, on the other hand, is used
    as a sidedish (with porkolt, gulyas, etc.).  Most other boiled
    noodles are  called "te'szta",  differentiated by  the name of
    their shape.
       I have never ever heard "vagdalthus" substituted for fasir-
    ozott. "Vagdalthus" simply means "cut meat". period.  But this
    designation may be used in other parts of the country.
       One more thing. There is no such  thing as substituting for
    "zsir" (lard).  I don't  give a hoot,  but it is  just not the
    same - the food without "zsir" is only imitation Hungarian. If
    all your concern is about the preservatives, make your own.
                                                              Amos

I'm puzzled by an answer to my comment on the word (not the
food) galuska and its borrowing into Hungarian.

I wrote:

> And GALUSKA is a Hungarian borrowing from Slovak HALUSKY (= plural
> since no one ever eats just one).  The S has a soft mark, making it
> SH the same as the Hungarian S.  Whether the Slovak word is related
> to Italian gnocchi seems unlikely etymologically, but the thing
> itself is very similar to the German noodle types obviously.  (I'm
> assuming it isn't a Slovak borrowing from Hungarian because of the
> Slavic ending KA.)


Paolo Agostino wrote:

>But let me stress the fact it would be difficult indeed to consider
>galuska as a borrowing from Slovak halushka, since the Slovak
>trailing h- does  never turn into g- in Hungarian.  Compare for
>example the family name Hunyadi  < Slovak hunya 'a raw
>masculine clothing; durva haziszottesbol keszitett ferfiruhadarab ',
>where /h/ remains /h/.

>According to the Historical-Etymological Dictionary of the Hungarian
>Language (i.e.  A Magyar Nyelv Tortenelmi-Etimologiai Szotara,
>briefly TESz, vol. I page 1021) the word "galuska" originates from
>Polish, namely from the dial. word "galuszka" (mainly used in its
>plural form, i.e. "galuszki"). Yet there are also the Czech and
>Slovak forms "haluska" (pl. "halusky", pron. halushki);  Ucranian,
>Bielorussian and Russian galushka, etc.

>The famous Slavist Istvan Kniezsa, in his book "A magyar nyelv szlav
>jovevenyszavai" (Bpest 1972 - 2nd ed., vol. I page 180) wrote:

>>[Hung. galuska] from Polish Galuszka (regularly Pl. galuszki) =
>>"Mehlkloss" (i.e.: "dumplings")...  Originally the word meant "Kugelchen,
>>Koepfchen" (that is: "small ball, little head") as -- e.g. -- in
>>"galuszka maku"  (i.e. "poppy head, poppy gall", Hung. "makfej").
>>The Slavic words are related to Latin galla "gall-nut" and/or to [Old]
Italian
 galla
>>"gall-nut, growth, abscess, blister" possibly through German "Galle"
>>of same meaning.

>According to the TESz, the first borrowing of the word galuska took
>possibly place in the Higher Tisza (Tibiscus) region. Later it spread
>all over Hungary, although being still considered as a "vernacular
>word"  belonging to the dialects of North-Eastern Hungary. It appears
>for the  first time in a document from Sarospatak dated 1683.


Though I don't claim to know the transference rules of Hungarian (or
Slovak), numerous changes from Slovak H to Hungarian G come to mind, eg.
the town/castle Vysehrad or Visegrad (like galuska originally a Slavic
word).  Do you mind explaining further?  The Hunyadi example was
a surprise and interesting, but what does "raw clothing" mean?  Anyway,
proper names are more likely
to be kept in the original than are household words that become fully
domesticated (which appears to be true with galuska since it can
form compound words and it seems more "elegant" than other names etc.)

Secondly, with such a common and obvious food as dumplings, which
must have been made more or less everywhere, does it seem to you likely
that a Polish name would spread through even northern/Upper Hungary from
across a border soooner than a name used by a local population within the
kingdom?  Yes, of course, the Spis cities were leased to Polish kings
for centuries, and Louis the Great was king of Poland as well as Hungary in
the 14th century, and there were other political and geographical
connections, of course.  I think borrowings usually have a social
basis as well as linguistic, which is hard to see with galuska. What does
the first documentation of the word say, something like a description of
a food boiled in Poland and called galuszki?  That would be convincing,
of course.  Or for example a description of a new food plant called potatoes
growing in Poland and cooked etc.  So that brings up the question of
where and when were potatoes introduced into central Europe?  (Sorry to
just ask questions, but we're in a heatwave and I'm not willing to leave
the house for the library.)

P.S.  Separate question of fact:  I missed the recipes, but does galuska
have to be made of potatoes, not just flour and eggs?  True halusky are a
potato dough.



Norma Rudinsky

Elizabeth Fischer didn't appreciate my note, defending her language
skills. Apparently, it was undeserved.

        As for finding her "out" and my failings as a person, I am not sure
what she means. She advertized her homepage in several of her articles, and
eventually I decided to look it up. I thought that people who make webpages
for themselves do it because they want other people to know about them.
Sorry, if I was wrong.

        Eva Balogh

Short piece from a Romanian satirical weekly (Academia Catavencu):

Like Boris Yeltsin, Gheroghe Funar is one of those politicians who succeed
in winning elections even when their health is not in the best state. The
fact that he moves around in a state vehicle, white in color with red
crosses on it is well known, but this fact did not stop him from observing
the deficiencies of the mass transit in Kolozsvar (Cluj). A subway will be
inaugurated the latest by the year 2000. We don't doubt that this subway,
designed, built and exploited by the City Hall will facilitate tours to the
Roman sites at the center of the city and the center of the Earth. And due
to the fact that financing sources, expected to be through local subscribers
to bonds, will come up short, Funar will compromise: he will build a smaller
subway for Romanians only. Hungarians, so that they don't feel marginalized,
will get a few special stations at the outskirts of the city, with fences,
guards, and definitely a chapel.

Gabor D. Farkas

Dear Fellow-listmembers,

The term liptovsky syr was also widespread in Czech stores selling
"lahudky" or delicatessen foods--prepared salads, specialty cheeses, and
so on.  Though I noticed over the last few years that instead of calling
the sheep-cheese/paprika/capers/other spices mixture that used to be
liptovsky syr by that name, the stores are now selling something they
call "budapest'" (with a hachek on the "s" to make the pronunciation come
out right).

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew