Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 911
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-02-10
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Hungarian Heritage Review (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: The Rekai Family (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Oh, No -- NATO! (mind)  130 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Slovaks Held Back by Hungarians? (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Crossposting (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
6 FW: Re: Oh, No -- NATO! (mind)  77 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: stowestyle (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
8 The state of democracy and public opinion (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
9 Phone Co Surcharge (fwd) (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: The[appaling] state of democracy and public opinion (mind)  76 sor     (cikkei)
11 FW: The state of democracy and public opinion (mind)  62 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Oh, No -- NATO! (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: The[appaling] state of democracy and public opinion (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Phone Co Surcharge (fwd) (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: The Rekai Family (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: The Rekai Family (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Slovaks Held Back by Hungarians? (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Oh, No -- NATO! (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: FW: The state of democracy and public opinion (mind)  73 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Oh, No -- NATO! (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: FW: The state of democracy and public opinion (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: stowestyle (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Oh, No -- NATO! (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Hungarian Heritage Review (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sun, 9 Feb 1997 17:58:33 -0400 "Andrew J. Rozsa" > wrote:

>I was also a regular reader of Hungarian Heritage Review (HHR) and
>supported the Rakoczi Foundation, its parent organization, as best as I
>could. Unfortunately, Paul Pulitzer, the Editor-Publisher killed it,
>hinting at some rather nefarious elements wanting its demise. I never
>learned about the true story behind HHR's death, but sure would like to
>hear from anyone who may have the insight track on this.

>There has not been a publication like HHR since 1991. I sure miss it.

Me too! I have been asking people about the HHR ever since it was killed. I
asked Joseph Hamvas who is the current President and one of founder of the
Canadian Rakoczi Foundation. He gave me an evasive answer, which implied
deep disappointment, circumstances beyond his control. I raised the issue
on this list a couple years ago. Somebody who lived in New Jersey, where
the magazine was published, promised to investigate but never heard from
him about the results.

There are at least a million people in North America who has a Hungarian
heritage, and there is not one organization whose primary interest is to
work with this primarily English speaking population. The Churches and the
Mutual Benefit societies, like the William Penn Association in Pittsburgh
or the Kossuth Mutual Benefit Society in Ontario, used to provide this
role, but no longer have the influence they once had.

I am sorry to see old Hungarian Churches, Clubs closing down and nothing
taking their place. Once I thought that may be the Regional Councils of the
World Federation of Hungarians (MVSZ) might take up this role of nurturing
and supporting the interest of the 2nd and 3rd generation Hungarians in their
heritage. I found out that this will not be the case. All organizations get
involved with Hungarian politics, issues which are very divisive and
no-productive.

>I guess with the advent of Internet, we are not likely to see another
>magazine like it. There is something about a hard-copy magazine that will
>never be replaced by the electronic medium.....

>Oh, well....

I am a little more optimistic. May be a few years from now, when Internet
will penetrate a broader spectrum of the society, than a "Hungarian
Heritage List" may give us all the information what Paul Pulitzer did for a
few years in his magazine.

Barna Bozoki
+ - Re: The Rekai Family (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:26 PM 2/9/97 GMT, Agnes Heringer wrote:

>In article >,
 says...
>>
>>On Sat, 8 Feb 1997, Joe Szalai wrote:
>>>
>>> I wasn't aware that there was a Hungarian language radio programme in
>>> Toronto.  Other readers of this list may not know either.  Could you
>please
>>> give us the station name, and time, that it's on?
>>>
>>AM530 CIAO, Sundays 9-10 AM. Tel (416 635-6843)
>
>And they are collecting now for starting a Hungarian TV station.
>
>Agnes

You don't really mean that, do you?  Don't you mean 'programme'?  A TV
station is very expensive.  Not even the Chinese community has it's own TV
station.  I believe they have their own radio station now, but not TV.
Maybe next century.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Oh, No -- NATO! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi, Eva!

In article >, "Eva S.
Balogh" > writes:

> As it turned out the
>vice-president of the unreformed communist party in Hungary (Munkaspart)
>joined the FORUM about a month ago and the Munkaspart is the strongest
>opponent of NATO. (Mind you, the party secretary, a certain Gyula
Thurmer,
>also supports Milosevic and gave hearty endorsement--a bit
prematurely--to
>the leaders of the communist coup attempt in Russia!!)

I'm not surprised. Surely anyone with even a scrap of intelligence or
talent fled the Munkaspart long ago. Sounds like "Night of the Living
Dead" in the Politburo meetings these days.

> According to the latest opinion polls, a fair number
>of people are still undecided and the rest is about 50-50.

I wonder how much of a cue Hungarians are taking from Austrian public
opinion on this matter. I've thought several times since 1989 that
Hungarians were trying much too hard to reform their political and social
system on the Austrian model. I think that's a huge mistake. The Allies
didn't do a sufficiently thorough job of de-Nazifying Austria after the
war and that deficiency is really starting to haunt Austrian politics.
Surely Hungary can find some better models for its public institutions
elsewhere in Western Europe or North America.

>
>        The ideological underpinnings of this question go back to the
>populist (narodnik) movement of the 1930s. These writers and "village
>researchers" were greatly influenced by a certain Wilhelm Ro:pke who
wrote a
>book called The Third Road. Ro:pke's book was translated into Hungarian
and
>made quite an impact. Apparently, to really understand what Ro:pke is
>talking about is not that easy but he certainly was very anti-capitalist.
>His ideas in a somewhat vulgarized form can be translated as seeking a
>"third road" between capitalism and socialism/communism. The Hungarian
>populists loved this idea and unfortunately they made quite an impact on
the
>national psyche.

I'm familiar with Ro:pke and his thesis, which appeals to exactly two
classes of people -- former communists who have enough sense to know that
Marxism-Leninism won't be coming back, but who are unwilling to shed the
fundamental misreading of history and social science which doomed
communism, and the right-wing national populists who have always been the
bane of public life in Latin America and Eastern Europe. Frank Novak,
Zoltan Szekely, Istvan Lippai and their ilk remind me of nothing as much
as rabid Peronistas. (and there's no other kind of supporter of Peron,
trust me)

>Today there are quite a few people who somehow think that
>Hungary should avoid the pitfalls of western capitalism. As I said to one
of
>the proponents of this crazy idea on the FORUM: "Hungary has never really
>had a full-fledged, western-type capitalism and you are already thinking
>about how to improve on it. Why don't you give a chance for a well
regulated
>market economy first?"

Once again, we stub our toes on the almost delusional nature of Hungarian
nationalist politics. Only an American libertarian would be so foolishly
optimistic as to think that we can strike "well-regulated" from your very
good definition of western-style capitalism and still expect the system to
function rationally and effectively. Only a Hungarian nationalist would be
so foolishly optimistic as to think he could re-invent the wheel less than
a decade after being introduced to it.

>
>        I have a real aversion to the populist ideology in the first
place
>and I find any kind of anti-NATO propaganda dangerous for Hungary.
Someone
>whose field is Hungarian foreign policy between the two world wars and
>general European diplomatic history during the same period, I am
horrified
>at the thought that Eastern Europe could become no man's land again. As I
>tried to explain Russia is in bad shape now but sooner or later she will
>recover. And given the internal political scene there we have no idea
what
>kind of regime will emerge in, let's say, five years in Russia.

I don't think Russia will be back anytime soon. In fact, I'm starting to
think Russia waited too long to de-communize and, by hesitating, may have
plunged deep into the ranks of third-world disorder and poverty without
hope for broad recovery anytime in the foreseeable future. Whether or not
the bear shows back up again on the eastern border, I'd still prefer to
see Hungary and the rest of eastern Europe drawn into a web of defense and
trade commitments with western Europe and the U.S. The only problem is
Hungary, the Czech Republic and Poland need to be admitted to the EU
pretty quickly if their economic recoveries are to be sustained. Given the
degree of outright petty greediness on the part of the French and the
Germans, I don't see this happening. For Hungary, sitting on the edge of
the common market pretty much puts it back in the place it had in the
Habsburg economy prior to 1867 -- close enough to the table to smell the
goodies, but not allowed to dine. It would delight me to see the U.S.
bring Hungary, the Czech Republic, Poland and the Baltics into a
NAFTA-like arrangement with us, Canada and Mexico. The Western Europeans
would be beside themselves with outrage and fear. And it would serve 'em
right.

> By the way, some people who participated in the discussion couldn't
>understand how it was possible that practically all the 1956-ers are for
>NATO today when they championed for neutrality in 1956. Again, times
change,
>people change. Then the best Hungary could achieve was neutrality a la
>Austria. Also, the influence of populists was as strong then as it is
now,
>if not stronger. Since then the situation has changed and my own thinking
>has changed on the subject. Today I would find it a tragedy if the
majority
>of the Hungarian people, misled and uninformed, would vote against NATO.

Sounds like it's going to happen, though. I worry about what a Hungary
outside of NATO might be tempted to do in readjusting its borders in order
to "straighten out" Trianon. I expect Jorg Haydar and his neo-Nazis to
eventually gain control of the Austrian government and that's going to be
a powerful temptation to the Hungarian far-right. NATO and EU membership
would go a long ways toward preventing that scenario.
Sam



"Nasal phlegm. Some guys may think it's
funny, Mr. Noir, but it's not."
-- The bartender in Guy Noir's office building
+ - Re: Slovaks Held Back by Hungarians? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Doug Holmes asks:

How about Highlands (to translate Felvidek) like in Scotland?

Actually, I saw an article once (my memory let me down so badly on the
details of Peter Bornemissza's century and religion that I hesitate to
say more, but I think ;-) that it was in Slavonic and East European
Review, or some other journal from UK, written by Paul Vysny, that _did_
compare Slovakia to Scotland in many ways...

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

+ - Re: Crossposting (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gabor D. Farkas comments on my note about list invasions and other types
of Net combat:

>> I agree with Hugh's point: there is no territory to be conquered on the
>> Internet, no battles to be won, and no fort to hold.  The Net is a
>> memoryless channel, where any issue thought to be well and truly settled
>> can and will be reopened by the first clueless newbie to show up tomorrow.
>
> This phrase made me think about the memory of the Net. As a matter of fact
> it does have memory, much larger than any human's. The problem is that it
> resembles that of rain man's.  With some intelligence (artificial) in the
> future it maybe possible to recall arguments of the past to respond to
> repeated issues in the present or future.

Indeed, most of what appears on the Net is archived somewhere.  My
point was not that the Net has no memory, but that it lacks a feedback
mechanism through which past discussions could inform or influence
current ones.  Which is why nothing is ever settled on the Net.  No
hare-brained idea is ever completely discredited.  At predictable
intervals a new kook-of-the-month is bound to show up from Central Casting,
foaming at the mouth about Commies and Freemasons, propounding theories
about the Sanskrit-Hungarian Connection, or whatever.  FAQs were invented
to reduce some of the circularity in Net discussions, but they rarely
help the truly clueless.  And they keep coming.  As Schiller said:
"Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain".

-----
Gabor Fencsik

+ - FW: Re: Oh, No -- NATO! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam Stowe & befoe Eva Balogh wrote :

>>>I wonder how much of a cue Hungarians are taking from Austrian public
opinion on this matter. I've thought several times since 1989 that
Hungarians were trying much too hard to reform their political and social
system on the Austrian model. I think that's a huge mistake. The Allies
didn't do a sufficiently thorough job of de-Nazifying Austria after the
war and that deficiency is really starting to haunt Austrian politics.
Surely Hungary can find some better models for its public institutions
elsewhere in Western Europe or North America.<<<

Interesting. This never occurred to me ( Hungary following Austrian
models ). And 92-94 I was pretty much around there, around the centers
of thinking. There was a lot of other almost random ( this was part of
the problem : an almost complete lack of systematic and of holistic app-
roach ) influences and definitely a lot of American and British ( govern-
ment or government financed ) consultancy. Part of the problem was the
incompatibility between the anglo-saxon and the continantal European
legal systems.

<<<             I'd still prefer to
see Hungary and the rest of eastern Europe drawn into a web of defense and
trade commitments with western Europe and the U.S. The only problem is
Hungary, the Czech Republic and Poland need to be admitted to the EU
pretty quickly if their economic recoveries are to be sustained. Given the
degree of outright petty greediness on the part of the French and the
Germans, I don't see this happening.>>>>

Germans and French are self-sacrifyingly generous saints COMPARED ( don4t
misunderstand me, in Germany I keep saying that Mr. Genscher and Dr. Kohl
first attributed the opening of the Hungarian border - wrongly - to Gyula
Horn and than next they managed to get him the European "Karls-Preis" as
token of our gratitude mainly because the Prize is donated with approx.
DM5000 only ) to the OUTRIGHT PETTY GREEDINESS on the part of Austria and,
especially Burgenland.

<<< For Hungary, sitting on the edge of
the common market pretty much puts it back in the place it had in the
Habsburg economy prior to 1867 -- close enough to the table to smell the
goodies, but not allowed to dine. It would delight me to see the U.S.
bring Hungary, the Czech Republic, Poland and the Baltics into a
NAFTA-like arrangement with us, Canada and Mexico. The Western Europeans
would be beside themselves with outrage and fear. And it would serve 'em
right.>>>>

You bloody American.:-) The trouble is, I fully agree with you. What I am af-
raid of is that Washington - again - is not gonna follow you...:-(

<<<> By the way, some people who participated in the discussion couldn't
>understand how it was possible that practically all the 1956-ers are for
>NATO today when they championed for neutrality in 1956. Again, times
change,
>people change. Then the best Hungary could achieve was neutrality a la
>Austria. Also, the influence of populists was as strong then as it is
now,
>if not stronger. Since then the situation has changed and my own thinking
>has changed on the subject. Today I would find it a tragedy if the
majority
>of the Hungarian people, misled and uninformed, would vote against NATO.>>>

<<<Sounds like it's going to happen, though. I worry about what a Hungary
outside of NATO might be tempted to do in readjusting its borders in order
to "straighten out" Trianon. I expect Jorg Haydar and his neo-Nazis to
eventually gain control of the Austrian government and that's going to be
a powerful temptation to the Hungarian far-right. NATO and EU membership
would go a long ways toward preventing that scenario.
Sam>>>

Have a look at the balance - or misbalance - of military power in the
area. I am not worried about such temptations. I am much more worried
about aggressive - partilly expressively expansive - national ideolo-
gies North, East and South of barely protected borders. The hazy dis-
cussions of "Intelligentzia" ( I share Eva4s views on populists, even
if I am not sure whether populism is the only explication an evil ) are
no doubt counterproductive but not a danger but for the country.

Miklos Hoffmann
+ - Re: stowestyle (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Charles
Mikecz Vamossy > writes:

>Subject:       Re: stowestyle
>From:  Charles Mikecz Vamossy >
>Date:  Sat, 8 Feb 1997 12:45:15 -0600
>
>I truly hate to stick my head into the middle of the barrage of hateful
>words flying about the list (oops, there goes another...), but is there
any
>way Sam and Ferenc could reset their computers' system date back to a day
or
>so before this war broke out?
>
>I, for one, miss their interesting contributions, thought provoking
>arguments.  The current excalation of insults is going nowhere...
>
>best regards,
>
>Charlie Vamossy
>
>

Sorry, Charlie, but once the moment's gone...well, you understand. You
haven't missed much from Frank's side, though. He's essentially repeated
the same post three or four times in a row.
Sam Stowe

"Nasal phlegm. Some guys may think it's
funny, Mr. Noir, but it's not."
-- The bartender in Guy Noir's office building
+ - The state of democracy and public opinion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In one of my writings I said something to the effect that my
suspicion was that the Hungarian people are somewhat confused about
democracy. Or rather, they cannot distinguish between the a regime which is
based on the rule of law (democracy) and a one-party system (a totalitarian
state, especially in a mild form like the Kadar regime was).
        Here are the results of a recent public opinion poll which support
my contention about the confusion about all this in Hungarian minds. The
opinion poll conducted by Marketing Centrum wanted to receive answers on
living standards, the state of the economy, the state of democracy and
freedom of the press during the following governments: Kadar, Nemeth,
Antall, Boross, and Horn.

        Not surprisingly the overwhelming majority of those question
considered their own living standards the best during the Kadar regime (67
percent). The Horn government received only 2 percent of the votes. Again,
not surprisingly when it came to the state of the economy, 55 percent of the
people felt that it was best during the Kadar regime. The Horn government
received only 3 percent. But then came the bombshell. As far as the state of
democracy is concerned those questioned split in the following way: Kadar,
23; Nemeth, 9; the same, 4; doesn't know, 24; Antall, 19; and Horn, 19.
These figures, at best, show confusion and ignorance. A plurality of the
people can't even decide between the pre-1990 and the post-1990 governments.
Twnety-three percent of those who claimed to know something about democracy
felt that the Kadar regime was the most democratic. Why the poor Nemeth
government which certainly was a great deal more democratic than its
predecessor received only 9 percent it is hard to tell. And then as a
further proof about the confusion about democracy here are the answers to
the last question about freedom of the press: Kadar, 9; Nemeth, 9; same, 4;
doesn't know, 24; Antall, 19; Horn, 35 percent!!! So, it seems that when the
question centers around something more tangible, like freedom of the press,
most people have a better grasp of the real state of affairs as opposed to a
question on "the state of democracy." I found only the last two figures
surprising: during the Antall government there was a very active and very
oppositional press while shortly after the inauguration of the Horn
government the Hungarian press slipped from the category of free to
"somewhat free" in a New-York-based press watch group.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Phone Co Surcharge (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello Friends,

   I have received the message below from a friend. I must admit
that this is  the first time  I hear about this,  or I have just
simply missed it. In any case, this may interest some of you.
                                                            Amos

---------- Forwarded message -----------------------------------
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 16:52:25 -0500 (EST)
From: 
Subject: Phone Co Surcharge

   I am writing you this to inform you of a very important matter
   currently under review by the FCC. Your local telephone company has
   filed a proposal with the FCC to impose per minute charges for your
   internet service. They contend that your usage has or will hinder the
   operation of the telephone network.

   It is my belief that internet usage will diminish if users were
   required to pay additional per minute charges. The FCC has created an
   email box for your comments, responses must be received by February
   13, 1997.

   Send your comments to  and tell them what you think.
   Every phone company is in on this one, and they are trying to sneak
   it in just under the wire for litigation. Let everyone you know hear
   this one. Get the e-mail address to everyone you can think of.

   

    ****Please forward this email to all your friends on the internet so
        all our voices may be heard!
+ - Re: The[appaling] state of democracy and public opinion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:41 PM 2/10/97 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
>        In one of my writings I said something to the effect that my
>suspicion was that the Hungarian people are somewhat confused about
>democracy. Or rather, they cannot distinguish between the a regime which is
>based on the rule of law (democracy) and a one-party system (a totalitarian
>state, especially in a mild form like the Kadar regime was).
>        Here are the results of a recent public opinion poll which support
>my contention about the confusion about all this in Hungarian minds
>>snip<<
>        Not surprisingly the overwhelming majority of those question
>considered their own living standards the best during the Kadar regime (67
>percent). The Horn government received only 2 percent of the votes. Again,
>not surprisingly when it came to the state of the economy, 55 percent of the
>people felt that it was best during the Kadar regime. The Horn government
>received only 3 percent. But then came the bombshell. As far as the state of
>democracy is concerned those questioned split in the following way: Kadar,
>23; Nemeth, 9; the same, 4; doesn't know, 24; Antall, 19; and Horn, 19.
>These figures, at best, show confusion and ignorance. A plurality of the
>people can't even decide between the pre-1990 and the post-1990 governments.
>Twnety-three percent of those who claimed to know something about democracy
>felt that the Kadar regime was the most democratic. Why the poor Nemeth
>government which certainly was a great deal more democratic than its
>predecessor received only 9 percent it is hard to tell. And then as a
>further proof about the confusion about democracy here are the answers to
>the last question about freedom of the press: Kadar, 9; Nemeth, 9; same, 4;
>doesn't know, 24; Antall, 19; Horn, 35 percent!!!
>>snip<<
>        Eva Balogh
>

If these numbers are correct -- and I have no reason to doubt them -- they
can mean only one thing:  people [still] do not know the definition of
democracy and are confusing it with perceived "living conditions", just like
they misunderstand what a free market economy is.

To call a regime democratic that consistently -- and with purpose -- offered
only mock elections with only one party running, is simply unbelievable.
This was the regime that, breaking its international guarantees, arrested
and secretly tried its domestic political opposition and then secretly
executed them, dumping their bodies in unmarked graves!!!  Is this democracy
in action?  If  23% of Hungarians feel that murdering your opposition is the
proper democratic method for selecting a nations' leadership, than there is
something seriously wrong....

Even in the more mellow years of Kadarism, what democracy existed?  Where
were the candidates for parliament, municipal councils, etc, who debated the
issues, fought free and open battles in the press, radio, tv?  The fact that
on rare occasion a brave soul, usually secretly, "reinterpreted socialism by
studying Comrade Lenin's works even harder", and dared to introduce a bit of
common sense into the otherwise bizarre state religion -- that's was not
democracy, just a faint hint of it.

Democracy became an emerging promise under Nemeth and hit Hungary full force
with Antall and, yes, under Horn.  Did democracy bring about other, possibly
more important changes in living standard, quality of life, etc?  Possibly
not.  Certainly most people perceive that it did not.

Democracy is no more and no less than the method countries use to govern
themselves  by electing -- rather than appointing, inheriting, forcing, etc.
-- its representatives and thus its top government.  The current Hungarian
parliament and thus the government is composed according to the wish of the
Hungarian people, just like its predecessor was.  Each composition
represents  a point of view at a certain point in time of the voters.  The
next election may do the same, even if with different results.

Have these governments -- and future ones -- brought about an increase of
living standards, job security, better health care, etc?   Apparently not...
But democracy at least guarantees that people will have a choice to select
leaders who may just have the answers or at least some of them.

Kadar as Hungary's leading democrat, indeed....   I am sick to my stomach
when I read things like this.



Vamossy Karcsi
+ - FW: The state of democracy and public opinion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh wrote:

<<<        In one of my writings I said something to the effect that my
suspicion was that the Hungarian people are somewhat confused about
democracy. Or rather, they cannot distinguish between the a regime which is
based on the rule of law (democracy) and a one-party system (a totalitarian
state, especially in a mild form like the Kadar regime was).
        Here are the results of a recent public opinion poll which support
my contention about the confusion about all this in Hungarian minds. The
opinion poll conducted by Marketing Centrum wanted to receive answers on
living standards, the state of the economy, the state of democracy and
freedom of the press during the following governments: Kadar, Nemeth,
Antall, Boross, and Horn.

        Not surprisingly the overwhelming majority of those question
considered their own living standards the best during the Kadar regime (67
percent). The Horn government received only 2 percent of the votes. Again,
not surprisingly when it came to the state of the economy, 55 percent of the
people felt that it was best during the Kadar regime. The Horn government
received only 3 percent. But then came the bombshell. As far as the state of
democracy is concerned those questioned split in the following way: Kadar,
23; Nemeth, 9; the same, 4; doesn't know, 24; Antall, 19; and Horn, 19.
These figures, at best, show confusion and ignorance. A plurality of the
people can't even decide between the pre-1990 and the post-1990 governments.
Twnety-three percent of those who claimed to know something about democracy
felt that the Kadar regime was the most democratic. Why the poor Nemeth
government which certainly was a great deal more democratic than its
predecessor received only 9 percent it is hard to tell. And then as a
further proof about the confusion about democracy here are the answers to
the last question about freedom of the press: Kadar, 9; Nemeth, 9; same, 4;
doesn't know, 24; Antall, 19; Horn, 35 percent!!! So, it seems that when the
question centers around something more tangible, like freedom of the press,
most people have a better grasp of the real state of affairs as opposed to a
question on "the state of democracy." I found only the last two figures
surprising: during the Antall government there was a very active and very
oppositional press while shortly after the inauguration of the Horn
government the Hungarian press slipped from the category of free to
"somewhat free" in a New-York-based press watch group.
        Eva Balogh>>>>>>>>>

Hello Eva,
( To start with, I am very much impressed not only by the quality
of your contributions but by the sheer volume of them. )
Just a couple of remarks.
1) rule of law ( jogallamisag ) need NOT be democratic. As long as
   a dictator ( a) cannot be removed  b) he is the legistlator )
   is abiding by his laws, there is rule of law. E.g. an enlighted
   absolute monarch.
   A freely elected parliament ( e.g. Hungary ) is uti figura docet
   no garantee for the rule of law, for jogallam.
2) the 19 vs 35 percent is not a surprise if you take into account
   that the majority of the media and the people within were and are
   anti-conservative. The government of Antall made the mistake to accept
   a confrontation course ( e.g. the long - lost - battle for the cont-
   rol of the electronic media ) generating the impression of an  anti-
   freedom-of-press attitude. With Horn, the press had their government.
   The press was and is handling this government unusually benevolently
   by analyses, by the way they were interviewing, by the way they are
   reporting and by omissions. It is only since Tocsik, that there is a
   cautious distance coming up.

Miklos Hoffmann
+ - Re: Oh, No -- NATO! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.Balogh wrote:

>different parts of the world is also staggering. The more I read
>contributions of especially younger people (in their late twenties, early
>thirties) the more I realize that the socialist propaganda made serious
>inroads in Hungary. (Mind you, if you tell them that they will deny it to
>their last breaths: they were never influenced by their surroundings!)

I am pretty sure that I am on your list of those younger people (:-)). And
here comes the surprise! I don't deny that influance. So, what? In a certain
way I have a much more objective thinking than my American or West Europian
fellows, but of course it has its backwardness, too.

>planning to do about it(;)) When you tell some of these people that Hungary
>right now must build a workable market economy and, yes, the Hungarians must
>learn from other, western nations, in this endeavor because they are the
>ones who have experience,

and also you wrote in a previous post:

>Today there are quite a few people who somehow think that
>Hungary should avoid the pitfalls of western capitalism. As I said to one
of
>the proponents of this crazy idea on the FORUM: "Hungary has never really
>had a full-fledged, western-type capitalism and you are already thinking
>about how to improve on it. Why don't you give a chance for a well
regulated
>market economy first?"

Well, there are a few problem with this 'give a chance for a well regulated
market economy' idea. First, there aren't two 'well regulated market eco-
nomy' that are the same. Probably we (hungarians/east Europians) cannot just
copy. We HAVE TO make minor or not that minor improvisations. The second,
to give a chance is not enough, the 'well regulated market economy' does not
come itself. The transition period can (and I think is) crucial, the outcome
may depend on it (i.e latin-american doomed economy, or a west-europian '
well regulated ....'). And unfortunately nobody has ever done a successful
transition from a socialist monster economy to a market one. Again we HAVE
TO improvise. In this situation the confusion is not surprising.


J.Zs
+ - Re: The[appaling] state of democracy and public opinion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Karcsi Vamossy:

>Kadar as Hungary's leading democrat, indeed....   I am sick to my stomach
>when I read things like this.

        So, am I. Why do you think I copied out the figures from today's
internet news service (BLA)? But also I am not surprised. Based on personal
experience in Hungary and my three years of internet contact with Hungarian
contributors to the different discussion groups all this doesn't come as a
surprise to me. In fact, with a certain amount of sadness I feel justified
in my gut feelings. And then, add to this a huge dose of anti-Americanism
while most of those who utter these anti-American sentiments know next to
nothing about the United States. Those who are better educated politically
and especially those who visited this country have an entirely different
attitude. Quite positive.
        In any case, although Hungarians hate to admit that they had been
brainwashed (influenced, if you wish) by the propaganda of the Kadar regime
unfortunately these figures show that the Kadar regime was quite successful
in their propaganda efforts. Even those who are sure that they were always
in opposition to existing socialism find it very difficult to comprehend the
tenets of demoracy.
        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Phone Co Surcharge (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Amos, I am afraid I heard about that the local telephone companies
are unhappy about us. They claim that they had to install many, many new
lines because of internet connections and that the users should pay for
these lines by paying for the service at a certain rate per minute. However,
I don't think that they will succeed to convince the FCC. Let's hope not!

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: The Rekai Family (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>
>At 11:26 PM 2/9/97 GMT, Agnes Heringer wrote:
>
>>In article >,
 says...
>>>
>>>On Sat, 8 Feb 1997, Joe Szalai wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I wasn't aware that there was a Hungarian language radio programme
in
>>>> Toronto.  Other readers of this list may not know either.  Could you
>>please
>>>> give us the station name, and time, that it's on?
>>>>
>>>AM530 CIAO, Sundays 9-10 AM. Tel (416 635-6843)
>>
>>And they are collecting now for starting a Hungarian TV station.
>>
>>Agnes
>
>You don't really mean that, do you?  Don't you mean 'programme'?  A TV
>station is very expensive.  Not even the Chinese community has it's own
TV
>station.  I believe they have their own radio station now, but not TV.
>Maybe next century.
>
>Joe Szalai

Sorry, Joe, you are right - forgive my "pongyola" English, but I am sure
people understood what I meant.

Agnes
+ - Re: The Rekai Family (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi, Joe and Agnes!

At 20:17 10/02/97 GMT, you wrote:
>
>>>And they are collecting now for starting a Hungarian TV station.
>>>
>>>Agnes
>>
>>You don't really mean that, do you?  Don't you mean 'programme'?  A TV
>>station is very expensive.  Not even the Chinese community has it's own
>TV
>>station.  I believe they have their own radio station now, but not TV.
>>Maybe next century.
>>
>>Joe Szalai
>
>Sorry, Joe, you are right - forgive my "pongyola" English, but I am sure
>people understood what I meant.
>
>Agnes

Now that you got that straightened out, could you ask the people behind this
drive to try to have the program put on CHCH in Hamilton? That is the only
Ontario TV station that we get down here in Nova Scotia, and I believe they
do broadcast quite of bit of ethnic programming, like Indian and Portuguese
programs on Saturday or Sunday morning.

Thanks!

Johanne/Janka


>
>
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: Slovaks Held Back by Hungarians? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Actually, from my observations it is the sz=E9kely from transylvanya =
(erd=E9ly) that justify comparison particularly with the highland scots.
Their habit of answering literally the question asked is particularly =
distinctive.

Regards
D=E9nes



----------
From:  Hugh Agnew[SMTP:]
Sent:  Monday, 10 February 1997 14:38
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: Slovaks Held Back by Hungarians?

Doug Holmes asks:

How about Highlands (to translate Felvidek) like in Scotland?



Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

+ - Re: Oh, No -- NATO! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This is just one consideration but I think worth putting and that is =
that since the time of M=E1ty=E1s, Hungary has been pressing to become =
part of Europe, at that time as a counter to the Ottoman threat. =
M=E1ty=E1s spent a lot of effort and blood to get himself elected as one =
of the Electors of The Holy Roman Empire only to find himself barred =
from being elected Emperor himself and thereby drawing on the armed =
might of Europe for defence.
I just wonder whether history is repeating itself.
Maybe someone more versed in Hungarian and European history might like =
to comment.
Regards
D=E9nes=20



----------
From:  =
[SMTP:]
Sent:  Monday, 10 February 1997 21:53
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  FW: Re: Oh, No -- NATO!

Sam Stowe & befoe Eva Balogh wrote :

<snip> ( I share Eva4s views on populists, even
if I am not sure whether populism is the only explication an evil ) are
no doubt counterproductive but not a danger but for the country.

Miklos Hoffmann
+ - Re: FW: The state of democracy and public opinion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:12 PM 2/10/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

>Hello Eva,
>( To start with, I am very much impressed not only by the quality
>of your contributions but by the sheer volume of them. )
>Just a couple of remarks.

        Well, first of all, thank you. And second, as explanation of the
volume I will start with the following story. The other day I had a
telephone conversation with a fellow-breeder friend originally from Ireland.
She is an AOL subscriber and she, like so many others, is rather upset with
AOL. As she was complaining to me about AOL's service she said: "And, you
know what. It especially annoys me that in every five minutes a voice says:
`Are you sure you want to stay on? You have been idle!' I am never, never
idle. My mind works all the time!"

        Well, she is something like me. My mind works all the time and I
can't quite cover 10 percent of the topics I find fascinating every morning.
But, of course, I am also rather lucky. I am the co-owner of a business and
I work out of the house. So, I don't have to get dressed; I don't have to
get into the car; I don't have to drive anywhere. I wake up at a reasonable
hour and walk downstairs, turn on the computer and get my daily mail. An
hour or so later, by the time I have to take the dogs out, most of my mail
is read and answered. I have breakfast and I go on with whatever I have to
do during the morning. And I write fast (that's why occasionally I make
stupid mistakes like leaving "the" in when in the meanwhile I changed it to
"a." I usually leave my desk around 8:30 at night.

>1) rule of law ( jogallamisag ) need NOT be democratic. As long as
>   a dictator ( a) cannot be removed  b) he is the legistlator )
>   is abiding by his laws, there is rule of law. E.g. an enlighted
>   absolute monarch.
>   A freely elected parliament ( e.g. Hungary ) is uti figura docet
>   no garantee for the rule of law, for jogallam.

        That maybe so but in today's Hungary "jogallam" normally contrasted
to the state of affairs during the Kadar regime. That's why I picked the
word, instead of "democracy" which seems--on the basis of the opinion
polls--a rather nebulous concept for Hungarians.

>2) the 19 vs 35 percent is not a surprise if you take into account
>   that the majority of the media and the people within were and are
>   anti-conservative. The government of Antall made the mistake to accept
>   a confrontation course ( e.g. the long - lost - battle for the cont-
>   rol of the electronic media ) generating the impression of an  anti-
>   freedom-of-press attitude. With Horn, the press had their government.
>   The press was and is handling this government unusually benevolently
>   by analyses, by the way they were interviewing, by the way they are
>   reporting and by omissions. It is only since Tocsik, that there is a
>   cautious distance coming up.

        Sure, I agree with you. That's why the organization in New York (I
forgot its name, someone can help me out here perhaps) found that the press
was not as free as before. This whole business of the media and its attitude
toward the government is rather amusing. Those who sympathize with this
government think that the media is extremely harsh on the Horn government.
The same people, of course, took every word of the journalists as gospel
truths when the same people criticized the Antall/Boross government. The
media behaved terribly in the first few months after the socialists won the
elections. Some of the articles were outright stomach turning. The only way
to describe the tone was "gooey." In fact, I wrote a personal letter to one
of the liberal weeklies (he happened to be classmate of mine at ELTE) and
warned him that if they don't watch out soon they will be labeled as a
government organ! But the honeymoon is over by now.
        But again, the impression that there is more freedom of the press
today is somewhat misleading because the journalists until very recently
didn't really push hard enough to hold the Horn government accountable. It
was almost like self-censorship in the good old Kadar days. Sure, the
Antall/Boross government tried to curb the media but it really didn't
succeed. They should have known that fighting the press is not a clever
move. Whether it is here or there only the government can lose in the long run.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Oh, No -- NATO! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:09 PM 2/10/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>E.Balogh wrote:
>
>>different parts of the world is also staggering. The more I read
>>contributions of especially younger people (in their late twenties, early
>>thirties) the more I realize that the socialist propaganda made serious
>>inroads in Hungary. (Mind you, if you tell them that they will deny it to
>>their last breaths: they were never influenced by their surroundings!)
>
>I am pretty sure that I am on your list of those younger people (:-)) And
>here comes the surprise! I don't deny that influance. So, what? In a certain
>way I have a much more objective thinking than my American or West Europian
>fellows, but of course it has its backwardness, too.

        All right, let's stop right here. I am fascinated. May I ask you to
do something for us: please describe in some detail in what way you think
you have been influenced by your surroundings during the Kadar regime. I
mean, schooling, politics, outlook on the world in general, the United
States, Western Europe, history, politics. Whatever you think is important.

>Well, there are a few problem with this 'give a chance for a well regulated
>market economy' idea. First, there aren't two 'well regulated market eco-
>nomy' that are the same.

        Yes, there are local variations. But the "improvements" people
promote in Hungary are not just a little tinkering. Their suggestions are
going against the very essence of the market economy.

>Probably we (hungarians/east Europians) cannot just
>copy. We HAVE TO make minor or not that minor improvisations.

        Well, minor is OK. Not too minor is not OK. Because, please tell me
what warrants such major changes. Is Hungary that terribly different from
other European nations? Is the Hungarian people that different from the
inhabitants of other nations? I doubt it. And the differences will be even
less marked once Hungary gets into the European Union.

>And unfortunately nobody has ever done a successful
>transition from a socialist monster economy to a market one. Again we HAVE
>TO improvise.

        Yes, this is true. It is OK to improve about the way of going from
socialist monster economy to a market one. But by dragging your feet, not
making the necessary changes rapidly, by trying to undermine the market
economy instead of building it, you ain't going to succeed. And that's
what's going on in Hungary for the most part on the government level. Both
the right--unfortunately including the FIDESZ--and the left (MSZP) have
great reservations about a true market economy. And when it comes to the
people, they are totally confused by now. Both Poland and the Czech Republic
a much more determined and a much clearer vision what they want. The
Hungarian government and the Hungarian people are not so sure.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: FW: The state of democracy and public opinion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Hello Eva,
>( To start with, I am very much impressed not only by the quality
>of your contributions but by the sheer volume of them. )
>
>Miklos Hoffmann

I must say that I agree. While I myself spend a great deal of time doing
business and email on the Internet, I can't imagine the time it takes Eva to
write all the things she does and still "have a life". <g>

Doug Holmes
   ================================================================
Doug da Rocha Holmes            | Doug Holmes - Director
------------------------------- | Hungarian/American Friendship Society
Specialist in Azorean Genealogy | Website: www.dholmes.com/hafs.html
Website: www.dholmes.com        | (Specializing in Hungarian & Slovak genealogy
)
   ================================================================
+ - Re: stowestyle (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

More endearing sentiments from redneck territory:

 on Sun Feb  9 08:38:27 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #910:

> ...you're much, much dumber than I am and you know it.

[Does he really think it's possible?  And if it were, how would I know it?
;-)]

> ...your incapacity for original thought...
> ...openly moronic and mediocre and isn't afraid for anyone else to notice.
> Sam Stowe

Poor Sam!  He is doing his best trying to provoke me, this time because I
mistakenly sent out two versions of a post airing some of the products of his
intellectually superior mind.

Let's look at the bright side, though.  He has at least cleaned up his
language a bit.  His insults, though still personal, are approaching a level
that may pass for polite conversation in his (red)neck of the woods.

In line with my principle of being kind to lower life forms, as well as in
deference to Charlie's entreaties for an end to hostilities, I hereby promise
not to call Stowe any names (he paints an eloquently unappealing picture of
himself in his posts anyway).  What's more, I will permit him to have the
last word, which is probably very important to him.  Maybe that will ease his
sense of inferiority.

Ferenc

P.S.  My apologies to the innocent bystanders.  This whole thing started
after a disagreement on a historical fact.  Sam simply could not forgive my
correcting his notion of Jelacic, whom he thought to be a victorious Serb
general in 1848.
+ - Re: Oh, No -- NATO! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 on Feb  8 18:44:27 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #909:

>... Russia is in bad shape now but sooner or later she will
>recover. And given the internal political scene there we have no idea what
>kind of regime will emerge in, let's say, five years in Russia.
>
>        By the way, some people who participated in the discussion couldn't
>understand how it was possible that practically all the 1956-ers are for
>NATO today when they championed for neutrality in 1956. Again, times change,
>people change. Then the best Hungary could achieve was neutrality a la
>Austria.

Agreed.  While in 1956 a lot of people would have liked Hungary to join in a
Western alliance for protection against Soviet domination, it would have been
impolitic to state it outright.  It would have given the Soviets an excuse
for intervention (not that they needed one) and would have alienated those
who, while opposed to Soviet domination of the country, were also against
joining the other side that had been portrayed by the communists as "western
imperialists bent on starting another world war".  Neutrality was something
everyone could live with.

Ferenc

AGYKONTROLL ALLAT AUTO AZSIA BUDAPEST CODER DOSZ FELVIDEK FILM FILOZOFIA FORUM GURU HANG HIPHOP HIRDETES HIRMONDO HIXDVD HUDOM HUNGARY JATEK KEP KONYHA KONYV KORNYESZ KUKKER KULTURA LINUX MAGELLAN MAHAL MOBIL MOKA MOZAIK NARANCS NARANCS1 NY NYELV OTTHON OTTHONKA PARA RANDI REJTVENY SCM SPORT SZABAD SZALON TANC TIPP TUDOMANY UK UTAZAS UTLEVEL VITA WEBMESTER WINDOWS