Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 1003
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-05-20
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Suggestions Re: Cancer and ... (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: King Frederick of Denmark (mind)  74 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: King Frederick of Denmark (mind)  67 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: visit to Hungary (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: visit to Hungary AND the Czech Republic (mind)  71 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: King Frederick of Denmark (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Suggestions Re: Cancer and ... (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Suggestions Re: Cancer and ... (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
18 HL-Action: write Albright (mind)  106 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Suggestions Re: Cancer and ... (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Suggestions Re: Cancer and ... (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Suggestions Re: Cancer and ... (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Suggestions Re: Cancer and ... (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Suggestions Re: Cancer and ... (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
31 Trouble in Prague (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Suggestions Re: Cancer and ... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi, Joe!

At 09:26 PM 5/19/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote, in response to Eva Balogh:
<snip snip>
>>        Obviously, you haven't heard of the fiasco of the American ban on
>>alcohol. ESB
>
>Obviously, I have.  However, it's a lot easier to ban tobacco than alcohol.
> The problem is a lack of political will.  Besides, the tobacco lobby is
>very powerful and it has the wherewithal to buy political decisions in its
>favour.
>
>Joe Szalai

Why would it be easier to ban tobacco than alcohol? Seems to me such an
idea would suffer from the same flaws as Prohibition - namely that it would
be another instance of a well-meaning paternalistic government trying to
save the citizens from themselves.

You can't tell me that tobacco is legal and popular because of the tobacco
lobby. People have been puffing and snorting (snuff, that is) for hundreds
of years before there was a tobacco lobby - and, remember, the
surgeon-general's report only came out thirty years ago. Such a move would
be widely perceived as oppressive, and I think that's part of the reason
for the lack of political will, along with the fact that a sizable
percentage of the population smoke.

Johanne/Janka

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: King Frederick of Denmark (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Return-Path: 
>Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 08:46:03 -0700
>From: "Johanne L. Tournier" >
>Reply-To: 
>Organization: Johanne L. Tournier, Barrister & Solicitor
>To: 
>Subject: Re: King Frederick of Denmark
>
>Dag Trygsland Hoelseth wrote:
>>
>> In article >,  says...
>> >
>> >Johanne L. Tournier wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi, There!
>> >>
>> >> A long time ago (last year some time) on the Hungary List, a discussion
>> >> arose about the treatment of the Jews in Europe during World War II. I
>> >> mentioned that I remembered that many of the Danish Jews were smuggled
>> >> out of Denmark into Sweden. Also that King Frederick of Denmark had made
>> >> a practice of continuing his daily ride during the German occupation of
>> >> Denmark, and that he had worn the yellow Star of David on his coat. I
>> >> have heard this story all of my life, and I know other people of
>> >> Scandinavian ancestry who also believe it to be true. But, one of the
>> >> members of the List said that it is not true, and I promised that I
>> >> would try to find the answer. Can anyone out there help me out? And,
>> >> preferably, provide a reference to a published source that might be
>> >> available to me by inter-library loan here in Eastern Canada.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for any help you can give.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> >Sorry, it was an apocryphal story, originated from the strong stand of
>> >King Christian X, who maintained an alliance with the Jewish community
>> >during the German occupation.
>>
>> Yes, the anecdote was linked to King Christian X, who died in 1947, not
>> the later King Frederik IX (d. 1972). The story about the yellow Star of
David
>> has been denounced by HM Queen Margrethe II. A good story, but it never
>> happened.
>>
>> Dag T. Hoelseth
>
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>      Johanne L. Tournier
>      Barrister & Solicitor
>      Site 3, Comp. 4, R.R. #2
>      Shelburne, Nova Scotia
>      Canada       B0T 1W0
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  e-mail - 
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Phone - office - (902) 875-4753
>           - home - (902) 875-4365
>           - fax -     (902) 875-3783
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Johanne L. Tournier
      Barrister & Solicitor
      Site 3, Comp. 4, R.R. #2
      Shelburne, Nova Scotia
      Canada       B0T 1W0
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  e-mail - 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Phone - office - (902) 875-4753
           - home - (902) 875-4365
           - fax -     (902) 875-3783
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
+ - Re: King Frederick of Denmark (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi, Everybody!

I don't know if anybody but me remembers that we had a discussion last year
some time in which I asserted that the King of Denmark during the war (I
thought it was Frederick, but it appears that it was Christian - all the
Danish kings are either named Frederick or Christian) had worn the yellow
Star of David as a sign of protest agains the German occupation. Peter
Hidas said I was wrong. I promised that I would try to discover the answer.
Well, I finally got around to inquiring on soc.culture.nordic. I know of
course that one has to be careful of the information one obtains from the
internet (:-)), but the two responses I got indicate that there is a
consensus on this. So, I must offer my humble apology to Prof. Hidas - he
was right and I was wrong (much as I hate to admit it!).

TTFN,

Johanne/Janka

************************************
>Subject: Re: King Frederick of Denmark
>
>Dag Trygsland Hoelseth wrote:
>>
>> In article >,  says...
>> >
>> >Johanne L. Tournier wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hi, There!
>> >>
>> >> A long time ago (last year some time) on the Hungary List, a discussion
>> >> arose about the treatment of the Jews in Europe during World War II. I
>> >> mentioned that I remembered that many of the Danish Jews were smuggled
>> >> out of Denmark into Sweden. Also that King Frederick of Denmark had made
>> >> a practice of continuing his daily ride during the German occupation of
>> >> Denmark, and that he had worn the yellow Star of David on his coat. I
>> >> have heard this story all of my life, and I know other people of
>> >> Scandinavian ancestry who also believe it to be true. But, one of the
>> >> members of the List said that it is not true, and I promised that I
>> >> would try to find the answer. Can anyone out there help me out? And,
>> >> preferably, provide a reference to a published source that might be
>> >> available to me by inter-library loan here in Eastern Canada.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for any help you can give.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> >Sorry, it was an apocryphal story, originated from the strong stand of
>> >King Christian X, who maintained an alliance with the Jewish community
>> >during the German occupation.
>>
>> Yes, the anecdote was linked to King Christian X, who died in 1947, not
>> the later King Frederik IX (d. 1972). The story about the yellow Star of
David
>> has been denounced by HM Queen Margrethe II. A good story, but it never
>> happened.
>>
>> Dag T. Hoelseth
>
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>      Johanne L. Tournier
>      Barrister & Solicitor
>      Site 3, Comp. 4, R.R. #2
>      Shelburne, Nova Scotia
>      Canada       B0T 1W0
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  e-mail - 
+ - Re: visit to Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

aheringer wrote:
>
> In article >, 
> says...
> >
> >aheringer wrote:
> >>
> >> I have just heard this morning in the Hungarian broadcast that
> tourists
> >> are charged incredible prices in hotels and restaurants in Hungary.
> Eg.
> >> a Danish party of 4 was charged 1,000,000 (one million) forints for a
> >> meal - about $1,400.  The racketeering is such that the US embassy
> issued
> >> a list of restaurants and stores where it is safe to it and shop.
> >>
> >> Agnes
> >Isn4t that rather 5800-5900 bucks? BTW, Good morning Hungarian
> >Broadcast! The topic was handled in the press some days ago and has been
> >discussed fo days on a Hungaian language list.
> >Miklos
>
> Which one?  Because I haven't seen it.  And maybe it was discussed in the
> German press, but it definitely wasn't in the Canadian.  We only have one
> hour a week of Hungarian broadcast here, in Toronto, on Sunday mornings.
>
> Agnes
It was discussed in the Hungarian press ( on the Net, as well )
and on the HVG-Forum
Miklos
+ - Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Janos Zsargo wrote:

> The problem is that relatively few people wants to know what is
> happening there or elsewhere. What the peoples need is the shocking
> news. I guess a headline like 'Zaire could finally balance her budget'
> would not really satisfy the chief editor of the NYtimes (or any other
> paper), but one with '40,000 hutu refugees are still missing' would be
> appriciated. The taxpayer get his/her daily horror and in return
> swallow those stupid advertisements that come with it. It's
> a perfect system I do not have to adjust it.

There is only one solution! Get rid of the people and choose better
ones. The first part is the job of progressive revolutions. They only
forget about the revolutionaries as well and about the second half of
the task
;-)
MKH
+ - Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gabor Fencsik wrote:
>
> I stand corrected.  I do remember some statistics about the 1994 election
> (sorry, no references) that showed the Munkaspart leading the field in
> the average age of its voters.

You mean low age, I presume?
Miklos
>
> I can only speculate what attracts a young person to join the Munkaspart,
> of all things.

Could it be just lack of info, judgment, experience?

We can safely assume he would not be driven by raw ambition.
> There have always been true believers in the old Party too, although they
> were the exception that proved the rule.  I suppose joining the Munkaspart
> may also have a sort of reverse chic about it, like the American fashion
> for baggy clothes or the junkie look affected by fashion models.  Such a
> reverse chic undoubtably exists in Budapest.  There are bars and discos
> decorated in 50s themes, complete with red flags, Lenin busts, and the
> idiotic little silk flags awarded to the heroes of socialist labor who
> overfulfilled the plan.  I guess it is a form of camp, like going to see
> the Rocky Horror Show on Saturday night...

MKH
+ - Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 09:36 PM 5/19/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
>
> >Maybe. But thusfar the size of your sample is 2. In words : two.
>
>         No, because the vice-president gave me figures of the under 30
> membership. Unfortunately, I forgot the number but it was quite high. In
> fact, he told me that they are trying to get rid of the old guard. ESB
But he didn4t succeed recruiting you, did he?;-)
MKH
+ - Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 02:57 PM 5/19/97 -0400, Johanne/Janka wrote:
>
> >At 10:24 AM 5/19/97 -0400, Good Ol' Joe wrote, in response to Gabor Fencsik:
>
> <snip>
> >>However, I hope you won't object if I dismiss the Munkaspart as
> >>irrelevant, regardless of their label.
> >
> >Some people think that sentiment would properly apply to any of the
> >parties who have historically considered themselves *social democratic*,
> >Joe!
>
> Yes, and they would be wrong.
>
> <snip>
> >>As with the Christian religion, the worst advertisement for Socialism is
> >>its adherents.
> >>        -- George Orwell
> >
> > I'll tell Alexa you said that!
>
> Go ahead.  Alexa McDonough, leader of the New Democratic Party (NDP) gets
> my vote on June 2.  She's my man, you know!
>
> Joe Szalai
Male chauvinist...
+ - Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 12:20 AM 5/20/97 -0700, Gabor Fencsik wrote:
>
> >There have always been true believers in the old Party too, although they
> >were the exception that proved the rule.  I suppose joining the Munkaspart
> >may also have a sort of reverse chic about it, like the American fashion
> >for baggy clothes or the junkie look affected by fashion models.  Such a
> >reverse chic undoubtably exists in Budapest.  There are bars and discos
> >decorated in 50s themes, complete with red flags, Lenin busts, and the
> >idiotic little silk flags awarded to the heroes of socialist labor who
> >overfulfilled the plan.  I guess it is a form of camp, like going to see
> >the Rocky Horror Show on Saturday night...
>
> A form of camp, you say?  Now you're getting real close to my attraction to
> politics.  As for the "heroes of socialist labor", don't forget that
> corporatism offers us the "Employee of the Week".  They may not get little
> silk flags but we do get to look at their idiotic mug shots that are
> plastered on the walls.  And they're all infected with the "continuous
> improvement virus", which, to me, is the corporatist equivalent of
> "permanent revolution".  Also, in Hungary, old women had jobs sitting
> outside toilets.  Today, in the West, we have store "greeters".  Who is/was
> more useless?
>
> Joe Szalai
Poor bitter old man...;-)
( Peace be with ye! )
MKH
+ - Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
> Kedves MKH,
>
> you wrote:
>
> >Janos Zsargo wrote:
> >
> >> The problem is that relatively few people wants to know what is
> >> happening there or elsewhere. What the peoples need is the shocking
> >> news. I guess a headline like 'Zaire could finally balance her budget'
> >> would not really satisfy the chief editor of the NYtimes (or any other
> >> paper), but one with '40,000 hutu refugees are still missing' would be
> >> appriciated. The taxpayer get his/her daily horror and in return
> >> swallow those stupid advertisements that come with it. It's
> >> a perfect system I do not have to adjust it.
> >
> >There is only one solution! Get rid of the people and choose better
> >ones. The first part is the job of progressive revolutions. They only
> >forget about the revolutionaries as well and about the second half of
> >the task
> >;-)
> >MKH
>
> I do not want to solve anything. I just want to call the child on the real
> name (neven nevezni a gyereket), or on what I think the real name is.
>
> J.Zs

Kedves J-Zs.
You are right, off course. Bur I didn4t say either you wanted to solve
anything. ( Progressive revolution doesn4t appear to be you bag to start
with. ) So call a spade - or what we believe is a spade - a spade.
Regards
Miklss
+ - Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 12:48 PM 5/20/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
> >E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> >>         No, because the vice-president gave me figures of the under 30
> >> membership. Unfortunately, I forgot the number but it was quite high. In
> >> fact, he told me that they are trying to get rid of the old guard. ESB
> >But he didn4t succeed recruiting you, did he?;-)
>
>         Not quite! In fact, I called them traitors because of their
> opposition to NATO. The president of the Munkaspart greeted the leaders of
> the abortive communist coup in Russia a bit prematurely! They supported
> Milesovic against the demonstrators in Belgrade. Our young vice-president's
> favorite them was: *direct democracy* which they will introduce. Several of
> us pointed out that hearing the word "democracy" from their mouths rang
> somewhat hollow. ESB
There is barely a chance to gap the semantic differences...
MKH
+ - Re: visit to Hungary AND the Czech Republic (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Previous on the ripoffs in Hungary:

> >I have just heard this morning in the Hungarian broadcast that tourists
> >are charged incredible prices in hotels and restaurants in Hungary.  Eg.
> >a Danish party of 4 was charged 1,000,000 (one million) forints for a
> >meal - about $1,400.
>
> One million forints is closer to $5500 US. It is being taken seriously, the
> people, who had franchised the restaurant's name (Dreher brewery) are
> cancelling the deal. It has been discussed in parlament, etc. Fact is that
> minor overcharges had been going on for some time- as in other major cities
> (save in Japan, where charges are high to begin with). Andy.

Yes, ripoffs are not isolated in Hungary.  Neither are they limited to
tourists: anyone who gets into a taxi in the City in Budapest that is not
marked with the decal of the large companies will be very legally ripped off,
as taxi rides are not subject to price control.

Still, there is no official support, tacit or otherwise, for this practice in
Hungary.  This is unlike in the Czech Republic where, according to persistent
reports, there is a dual price system in operation with no apparent reaction
from the authorities.  Prices tend to be posted in Czech only and unless
foreigners can make sense of Czech signs they are charged much more.  This is
not limited to the Czech Republic: in Slovakia I have encountered restaruant
menus whose prices for the same meal depended on the language they were printed
in.  Like, the German menu showed 2-3 times the price of the Slovak one.
I haven't found such discrimination in Hungary where multilingual menus are
the norm, and ripoffs are individuals' actions rather than systematic.

Further on the Czech Republic,  E.S. Balogh wrote:
>         I just heard via Hungary that the Czech republic is in serious
> economic trouble at the moment. The Czech crown is crumbling, there is a
> government crisis, and western capital is fleeing from the Czech republic.
> So, say the Hungarian critics, Klaus's "painless transition" from
> "socialism" to "capitalism" is a failure.
>         A lot of Hungarian economists predicted a sad end to the Czech
> miracle. After all, the Czechs didn't really make fundamental changes in the
> economic structure: the former state companies were simply renamed and
> everything else remained the same. Sooner or later, the critics said, the
> reconing will be unavoidable. According to the latest news, the reconing
> arrived.
>         The New York Times--although I like the paper very much--has not
> reported a thing on the Czech republic lately, so we, in this country, are
> not really aware of what's going on at the moment in Prague.

Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
>The European press has covered the developments. The import deposit
>introduced by Prague - and afterwords by Bratislava - was fiercely
>criticized by the EU as a breach of the Association Agreements.
>It appears the the popularity of Klaus just collapsed.

The Economist covered the bank failures in the Czech Republic last September,
attributing them in the end to the failure of the regulatory regime that allows
uncontrolled incompetence and fraud.  Late January this year they analysed
the political machinations and had a paragraph about the worsening economic
situation: increasing trade deficit, slowing economy, pension payments
amounting to 27% of the budget. An economic summary of emerging markets in
January wrote of the increasing current-account deficit due to weak export
markets and a domestic consumption boom.

Statements from Czech government representatives sound very similar to those
of the Antall-Boross governments in Hungary: the currency is not going to be
devalued, the trade inbalance is nothing to be worried about and is going
to be solved by other means anyway, the economy is fine.  The fact remains
that domestic consumption is not sufficient to sustain growth in a small
country nowadays, and it is only a competitive export sector that can do that.
This is the conclusion of the last decade's experience in Australia, and the
same is evident in Hungary that after the harsh austerity and crawling-peg
devaluation is now the most competitive Central-European economy.

George Antony
+ - Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

G.Fencsik wrote:

>So how do you propose we find out about the "suffering of others"
>in Zaire, let's say, except by sending out correspondents to act as
>our eyes and ears?  Preferably experienced, self-sufficient, worldly
>people who speak languages, have local contacts, and know how to see
>through the B.S. put out by the mouthpieces of the local strongmen.
>Do you have a better method for finding out what is happening there?
>Can you share it with us?

The problem is that relatively few people wants to know what is
happening there or elsewhere. What the peoples need is the shocking
news. I guess a headline like 'Zaire could finally balance her budget'
would not really satisfy the chief editor of the NYtimes (or any other
paper), but one with '40,000 hutu refugees are still missing' would be
appriciated. The taxpayer get his/her daily horror and in return
swallow those stupid advertisements that come with it. It's
a perfect system I do not have to adjust it.
However I do not have to like this and I do not have to lie to myself
that all this is about informing me.

J.Zs

P.S: Just take a look at the cover of USAtoday (May 19, 1997). You
can see two nice pictures about an execution. The first shows the
victim escorted by some Zairian rebels and on the second he is just
being shot in his back and is collapsing to the ground. Nice job though
by the photographer.
+ - Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Kedves MKH,

you wrote:

>Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
>> The problem is that relatively few people wants to know what is
>> happening there or elsewhere. What the peoples need is the shocking
>> news. I guess a headline like 'Zaire could finally balance her budget'
>> would not really satisfy the chief editor of the NYtimes (or any other
>> paper), but one with '40,000 hutu refugees are still missing' would be
>> appriciated. The taxpayer get his/her daily horror and in return
>> swallow those stupid advertisements that come with it. It's
>> a perfect system I do not have to adjust it.
>
>There is only one solution! Get rid of the people and choose better
>ones. The first part is the job of progressive revolutions. They only
>forget about the revolutionaries as well and about the second half of
>the task
>;-)
>MKH

I do not want to solve anything. I just want to call the child on the real
name (neven nevezni a gyereket), or on what I think the real name is.

J.Zs
+ - Re: King Frederick of Denmark (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Johanne Tournier wrote:

>Hi, Everybody!
>
>I don't know if anybody but me remembers that we had a discussion last year
>some time in which I asserted that the King of Denmark during the war (I
>thought it was Frederick, but it appears that it was Christian - all the
>Danish kings are either named Frederick or Christian) had worn the yellow
>Star of David as a sign of protest agains the German occupation. Peter
>Hidas said I was wrong. I promised that I would try to discover the answer.
>Well, I finally got around to inquiring on soc.culture.nordic. I know of
>course that one has to be careful of the information one obtains from the
>internet (:-)), but the two responses I got indicate that there is a
>consensus on this. So, I must offer my humble apology to Prof. Hidas - he
>was right and I was wrong (much as I hate to admit it!).
>
>TTFN,
>
>Johanne/Janka

Whoa! A real gentlewoman! I respected you a lot, Johanne, even before this
message, but you suceed to increase it. I guess you have shown a good example
of proper behaviour for all of us. Congratulation!

J.Zs
+ - Re: Suggestions Re: Cancer and ... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On May 20,  9:21am, Joe Szalai wrote:
> Subject: Re: Suggestions Re: Cancer and ...
>
>
> <snip>
>
>
> Well, for starters, not too many people suffer from second hand alcohol
> vapors.  The same can not be said of second hand tobacco smoke.  Also,
> alcohol can be made from all sorts of things - just ask any prison inmate.
> The same is not true for tobacco.  It can only be grown in certain soils
> and weather conditions.  And although some people are alcoholic, alcohol is
> not addicive like tobacco.

>
>
> Joe Szalai
>-- End of excerpt from Joe Szalai

Joe, would you please cite your references that alcohol is not additive like
tobacco? The people at the Alcohol Studies Center at Rutgers University would
love to know I'm sure. Alcohol is a dangerous drug, just like tobacco and just
as addictive. And it destroys far more families than tobacco ever did!

You're way out in left field on this issue, Joe!  :)

Bob Hosh
Library of Science and Medicine
Rutgers University.
+ - Re: Suggestions Re: Cancer and ... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On May 20,  5:06pm, Joe Szalai wrote:
> Subject: Re: Suggestions Re: Cancer and ...
> At 10:47 AM 5/20/97 -0400, Bob Hosh wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >Joe, would you please cite your references that alcohol is not additive
like
> >tobacco?

<snip>

> >You're way out in left field on this issue, Joe!  :)
>
> Hey, Bob, being out in left field is the least of my worries.
>
> It's not my intention to minimize the negative effects of alcohol.
Believe
> me, I have first hand experience of the damage it can cause.  The reason
I
> said what I said is because I drink alcohol and I used to be a heavy
> smoker.  I could/can forego alcohol but I always needed a fag in my
mouth.
> >From my own personal experience I know what I was addicted to.  It was
> tobacco, not alcohol.  Most of my acquantinces and friends told me that
> their experience with alcohol and tobacco was the same.  I realize that
the
> situation for alcoholics is different.  They're addicted to alcohol.
> However, most people who drink are not addicted and are not alcoholic,
but
> most people who smoke are addicted to the nicotine.
>
> Do you smoke cigarettes?
>
> Joe Szalai
>-- End of excerpt from Joe Szalai

Except for the few times I tried cigarettes as a pre-teen, I've never
smoked, Joe.

But your original statment made it sound like being alcoholic was
preferable to being assicted to nicotine!   :)
+ - HL-Action: write Albright (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:     normal

Background:
  Hungary's position in the Danube lawsuit at the International Court
of Justice in The Hague is very promising. However, even if the court
rules in favour for the environment it is possible that the Slovak
government does not accept the verdict.
  It is important that influential politicians of USA support our
position, since in this case Slovakia probably does not dare to reject
the decision of the court.

What to do:
  Please help to persuade Secretary of State Madeleine Albright to
make a statement in favor of the Danube. Feel free to use the attached
form letter.
   IT IS IMPORTANT THAT ALBRIGHT FINDS THOUSANDS OF LETTERS IN HER
MAILBOX.
  PLEASE ACT!! Please SEND EVEN SNAIL MAILS. These are more effective.
FURTHERMORE SEND COPIES OF YOUR LETTER TO:
    Executive Assistant, Maura Harty
    Special Assistant, Carlene Ackerman
    Senior Advisor, Robert O. Boorstin (Room 7246)
    Assistant Secretary for Oceans, & International Environmental and
Scientific Affairs Bureau, Eileen B. Claussen (Room 7831)

address:
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520

e-mail address of Madeleine Albright:


*************************************************************

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
United States Department of State
Washington, DC 20520
( E-Mail:  )

RE: First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary,

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment. I
do hope that your leadership will contribute to progress and stability
in Central Europe.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with international environmental
standards in general and with the Danube lawsuit in particular, which
is in progress at the International Court of Justice in the Hague.
This new tone would be consistent with the US policy of expanding
Western structures to Eastern and Central Europe. It would also engage
the US more actively in helping resolve emerging inter-country
conflicts in the Region (i) by urging your West European partners to
assist more pro-actively, and (ii) by calling on both parties (Hungary
and Slovakia) to accept the Compromise Plan prepared by the
environmental NGOs and thereby cooperate in the quest for a solution
that can set an example for the future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and based on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental, and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements that have been drawn up by non-representative
governments under a regional policy framework which was imposed by
Moscow.

This, the first international environmental lawsuit in human
history, also involves the United States, because it was the Paris
Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and Hungary,
and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the guarantors
of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The Treaty also
stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to change their
border, unless the Great Powers first approve of the change. Yet in
1977, under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to
move the Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial
canal on Slovak territory. By so doing, they did not ask  nor did they
receive, the approval of the Great Powers. Therefore, the Moscow
initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID, and the Danube
must be returned into its riverbed.

Madame Secretary. There is little question, that in the fall, the
International Court of Justice will order Slovakia to return the
Danube into its natural riverbed and will also order the restoration
of the Szigetkoz wetlands. But, as you know, the ICJ has no powers to
enforce its rulings. Therefore, it will be up to the international
community to force Slovakia to obey the ruling. Since this is the
first international environmental lawsuit before the ICJ, the outcome
will establish an important precedent. It must be understood that
there is a price to be paid for being admitted into the European
Community or into NATO. That price must include respect for
international law. A statement by you, would guarantee that the
parties understand this. Please make that statement.

Respectfully yours,

<Your name, address, title>
+ - Re: Suggestions Re: Cancer and ... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe,

   The problems seems to be that you really believe in the nonsense
below. You have found  another simplistic cure  for the complicated
troubles of the world.  And it doesn't bother  you at all that your
remedies are for a perfect world - the non-existent one.  Who is on
his moralistic high horse now?
   I have believed for some time that you are only pulling our legs
but you are starting to believe  in this convoluted stuff of yours.
Stop the indignation.  You know you are,  as Bob has said,  way out
on left field. And if you don't,it is really time to start worrying
about you.
           Amos
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> Well, for starters, not too many people suffer from second hand alcohol
> vapors.  The same can not be said of second hand tobacco smoke.  Also,
> alcohol can be made from all sorts of things - just ask any prison inmate.
> The same is not true for tobacco.  It can only be grown in certain soils
> and weather conditions.  And although some people are alcoholic, alcohol is
> not addicive like tobacco.
>
> The banning of tobacco by a "well-meaning paternalistic government" need
> not be a draconic act.  A government, if it had the political will, could
> set out plans to ban tobacco over a period of time.  That way everyone
> would know that it will be banned by a certain date and users could make
> plans to quit.  People can live without tobacco, you know.
>
> Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Suggestions Re: Cancer and ... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:20 AM 5/19/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:

>At 10:32 AM 5/19/97 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
>>A government serious about the perils of smoking would bad the sale and
>>consumption of tobacco.  When we talk about poisons, half measures are not
>>enough.
>
>        Obviously, you haven't heard of the fiasco of the American ban on
>alcohol. ESB

Obviously, I have.  However, it's a lot easier to ban tobacco than alcohol.
 The problem is a lack of political will.  Besides, the tobacco lobby is
very powerful and it has the wherewithal to buy political decisions in its
favour.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:57 PM 5/19/97 -0400, Johanne/Janka wrote:

>At 10:24 AM 5/19/97 -0400, Good Ol' Joe wrote, in response to Gabor Fencsik:

<snip>
>>However, I hope you won't object if I dismiss the Munkaspart as
>>irrelevant, regardless of their label.
>
>Some people think that sentiment would properly apply to any of the
>parties who have historically considered themselves *social democratic*,
>Joe!

Yes, and they would be wrong.

<snip>
>>As with the Christian religion, the worst advertisement for Socialism is
>>its adherents.
>>        -- George Orwell
>
> I'll tell Alexa you said that!

Go ahead.  Alexa McDonough, leader of the New Democratic Party (NDP) gets
my vote on June 2.  She's my man, you know!

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:20 AM 5/20/97 -0700, Gabor Fencsik wrote:

>There have always been true believers in the old Party too, although they
>were the exception that proved the rule.  I suppose joining the Munkaspart
>may also have a sort of reverse chic about it, like the American fashion
>for baggy clothes or the junkie look affected by fashion models.  Such a
>reverse chic undoubtably exists in Budapest.  There are bars and discos
>decorated in 50s themes, complete with red flags, Lenin busts, and the
>idiotic little silk flags awarded to the heroes of socialist labor who
>overfulfilled the plan.  I guess it is a form of camp, like going to see
>the Rocky Horror Show on Saturday night...

A form of camp, you say?  Now you're getting real close to my attraction to
politics.  As for the "heroes of socialist labor", don't forget that
corporatism offers us the "Employee of the Week".  They may not get little
silk flags but we do get to look at their idiotic mug shots that are
plastered on the walls.  And they're all infected with the "continuous
improvement virus", which, to me, is the corporatist equivalent of
"permanent revolution".  Also, in Hungary, old women had jobs sitting
outside toilets.  Today, in the West, we have store "greeters".  Who is/was
more useless?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Suggestions Re: Cancer and ... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:11 AM 5/20/97 -0400, Johanne/Janka wrote:

<snip>
>Why would it be easier to ban tobacco than alcohol? Seems to me such an
>idea would suffer from the same flaws as Prohibition - namely that it would
>be another instance of a well-meaning paternalistic government trying to
>save the citizens from themselves.

Well, for starters, not too many people suffer from second hand alcohol
vapors.  The same can not be said of second hand tobacco smoke.  Also,
alcohol can be made from all sorts of things - just ask any prison inmate.
The same is not true for tobacco.  It can only be grown in certain soils
and weather conditions.  And although some people are alcoholic, alcohol is
not addicive like tobacco.

The banning of tobacco by a "well-meaning paternalistic government" need
not be a draconic act.  A government, if it had the political will, could
set out plans to ban tobacco over a period of time.  That way everyone
would know that it will be banned by a certain date and users could make
plans to quit.  People can live without tobacco, you know.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Suggestions Re: Cancer and ... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:47 AM 5/20/97 -0400, Bob Hosh wrote:

<snip>
>Joe, would you please cite your references that alcohol is not additive like
>tobacco? The people at the Alcohol Studies Center at Rutgers University would
>love to know I'm sure. Alcohol is a dangerous drug, just like tobacco and
just
>as addictive. And it destroys far more families than tobacco ever did!
>
>You're way out in left field on this issue, Joe!  :)

Hey, Bob, being out in left field is the least of my worries.

It's not my intention to minimize the negative effects of alcohol.  Believe
me, I have first hand experience of the damage it can cause.  The reason I
said what I said is because I drink alcohol and I used to be a heavy
smoker.  I could/can forego alcohol but I always needed a fag in my mouth.
From my own personal experience I know what I was addicted to.  It was
tobacco, not alcohol.  Most of my acquantinces and friends told me that
their experience with alcohol and tobacco was the same.  I realize that the
situation for alcoholics is different.  They're addicted to alcohol.
However, most people who drink are not addicted and are not alcoholic, but
most people who smoke are addicted to the nicotine.

Do you smoke cigarettes?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Suggestions Re: Cancer and ... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:50 PM 5/20/97 -0400, Amos J. Danube wrote:

>Joe,
>
>   The problems seems to be that you really believe in the nonsense
>below. You have found  another simplistic cure  for the complicated
>troubles of the world.  And it doesn't bother  you at all that your
>remedies are for a perfect world - the non-existent one.  Who is on
>his moralistic high horse now?
>   I have believed for some time that you are only pulling our legs
>but you are starting to believe  in this convoluted stuff of yours.
>Stop the indignation.  You know you are,  as Bob has said,  way out
>on left field. And if you don't,it is really time to start worrying
>about you.
>           Amos

Amos,

Don't worry about me.  Life's too short for that sort of thing.  But let me
ask you a question that may shed some light on your objectivity.  Are you a
cigarette smoker?  And what do I do that causes you indignation?  Would you
be happier if I was silenced?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:36 PM 5/19/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

>Maybe. But thusfar the size of your sample is 2. In words : two.

        No, because the vice-president gave me figures of the under 30
membership. Unfortunately, I forgot the number but it was quite high. In
fact, he told me that they are trying to get rid of the old guard. ESB
+ - Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:20 AM 5/20/97 -0700, Gabor Fencsik wrote:

>I can only speculate what attracts a young person to join the Munkaspart,
>of all things.  We can safely assume he would not be driven by raw ambition.

        This particular 32-year-old vice-president was a "true believer"
through and through. He was very polite and made a rather good impression on
the Forum: especially among the rightwingers. We, terrible "liberals," were
not moved and had a few harsh words to say about the sins of their fathers.
He and the rightwingers were exchanging ideas on David Karten's book about
those evil multinational companies and the ruin they will bring to the
world. It was a very interesting. I asked him--privately--how can they use
practically the same words as the far right. Yes, he said, they sound the
same but they mean every word of it while the far right doesn't!
        ESB
+ - Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:48 PM 5/20/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
>E.S. Balogh wrote:

>>         No, because the vice-president gave me figures of the under 30
>> membership. Unfortunately, I forgot the number but it was quite high. In
>> fact, he told me that they are trying to get rid of the old guard. ESB
>But he didn4t succeed recruiting you, did he?;-)

        Not quite! In fact, I called them traitors because of their
opposition to NATO. The president of the Munkaspart greeted the leaders of
the abortive communist coup in Russia a bit prematurely! They supported
Milesovic against the demonstrators in Belgrade. Our young vice-president's
favorite them was: *direct democracy* which they will introduce. Several of
us pointed out that hearing the word "democracy" from their mouths rang
somewhat hollow. ESB
+ - Re: Vaclav Havel in the New York Times (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Janos Zsargo, free-associating about the New York Times, writes:

> Just take a look at the cover of USAtoday (May 19, 1997). You
> can see two nice pictures about an execution.

No, thanks.  I'll stick with the Times.  When I want to check into
USA Today, I'll just drop you a note, OK?

(We *were* talking about the New York Times, weren't we?  Think hard.
It's the black-and-white one with the funny looking gothic letters at
the top.  Ask the friendly man at the newspaper stand.  He'll help you.)

-----
Gabor Fencsik

 The Net is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive,
 difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of
 mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.

           -- Dave Barry
+ - Re: Who's Left in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva S. Balogh writes:

> I think Gabor Fencsik overemphasized the age factor in the Munkaspart.
> My Munkaspart contact (one of the vice presidents of the party)
> is 32 and he claims that the majority of the party belongs to the younger
> generation. I received another letter from a Munkaspart member and he was
> also young. Thus, it seems to me that the membership is getting younger.

I stand corrected.  I do remember some statistics about the 1994 election
(sorry, no references) that showed the Munkaspart leading the field in
the average age of its voters.

I can only speculate what attracts a young person to join the Munkaspart,
of all things.  We can safely assume he would not be driven by raw ambition.
There have always been true believers in the old Party too, although they
were the exception that proved the rule.  I suppose joining the Munkaspart
may also have a sort of reverse chic about it, like the American fashion
for baggy clothes or the junkie look affected by fashion models.  Such a
reverse chic undoubtably exists in Budapest.  There are bars and discos
decorated in 50s themes, complete with red flags, Lenin busts, and the
idiotic little silk flags awarded to the heroes of socialist labor who
overfulfilled the plan.  I guess it is a form of camp, like going to see
the Rocky Horror Show on Saturday night...

-----
Gabor Fencsik
+ - Trouble in Prague (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva S. Balogh writes about rumors of a run on the Czech crown:

>       The New York Times--although I like the paper very much--has not
> reported a thing on the Czech republic lately, so we, in this country,
> are not really aware of what's going on at the moment in Prague.

At the risk of sounding devotional again, I beg to disagree.  I could
swear I read about it in the Times within the last 3 days.  (Eva, do
you make it through the business section?)  I distinctly recall some
Czech central bank type sounding nonchalant about it, saying that
all is normal, a run on the crown is nothing to worry about.  "That's
what currency reserves are for", he said, breathtakingly.  Sounds like
famous last words to me...

-----
Gabor Fencsik

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