Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 694
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-06-10
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Christian symbols et al. (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: To: Confederate Faerie Wonderboy (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind)  74 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Nephadsereg (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Yes, '56 was a 'Szabadsagharc' (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
7 readers/contributors of the FORUM (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Yes, '56 was a 'Szabadsagharc' (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
9 Used Notebooks/Desktops To Send To Hungary (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Surname "Hodas" (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Requiem for Demszky... (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
15 Rules of discussion (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Yes, '56 was a 'Szabadsagharc' (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
20 Charlie's Kindergarten Apologia (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Yes, '56 was a 'Szabadsagharc' (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary, Stones and Glass Hou (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Christian symbols et al. (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: HASZNALT komputereket akkarok kuldeni (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind)  129 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Yes, '56 was a 'Szabadsagharc' (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)
27 Rejected posting to HUNGARY@GWUVM.GWU.EDU (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Yes, '56 was a 'Szabadsagharc' (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
30 Imre Nagy memorial consecrated (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
32 Re: Rules of discussion (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Christian symbols et al. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article <v01510101addf5c295c1b@[199.245.97.100]>, Sven Stjarnlof
> writes:

>A symbol that unites us as a nation better than the coat-of-arms with
>crown, is, perhaps, the star of Green Acres herself, Zsa Zsa Gabor.  I
vote
>that the forint should henceforth be emblazoned with the silhouette of
Zsa
>Zsa, and the centre of the Magyar flag be blessed with the sequin-wearing
>policeman-slapping wonder that is Hungary's greatest export.  :-)
>
>
>Sven Koppany
>Confederate Faerie Wonderboy for Hire
>
>

You really think she'll fit on either the flag or the coin?
Sam Stowe
+ - Re: To: Confederate Faerie Wonderboy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Dear Sven Koppany,
>
>as you were kind to let us know your ancestry, may I ask who is David Tomasko?

that's my roommate, David.
we have a shared internet account (he owns the computer, though)
a budgetary move on our part :)

would you like his family tree?


Sven Koppany
Confederate Faerie Wonderboy for Hire

-- Ruh-roh! --
-Astro the dog, after seeing Elroy in blue chiffon as "Elronda"
+ - Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

It was enlightening to read the reactions to the question "Who denounced
NPA?"
Suddenly, we see that people who told us they had "left" FORUM are still
lurking there.  (Before anyone takes offense, the term "lurking" means being
passive readers of a newsgroup, i.e. just reading and not writing.)  Some of
them even read things that were never written, e.g. Eva Balogh's observation
of NPA's "tearful" account of what had happened to him.


On FORUM in general, Eva Balogh wrote in HUNGARY#692:

>   ... The
>FORUM is full of cries of indignation against the United States, against the
>Jews, against the liberals, against all those alien elements, who are, in an
>"un-Hungarian" way, denounce others.

Eva, would you kindly supply some evidence?  And please, no two-year-old,
out-of-context stuff this time ;-)

Also in Hungary#692, A. Kornai writes:

> Mr. Neme1nyi and his kind are not worthy of debate, and I never
>engaged in any debate with him. When it was clear that FORUM was taken over
by
>similar scum, I left (together with some other people -- the story is all
>spelled out in the FORUM archives).  I have repeatedly urged others (E1va
>Balogh can witness this) to stay away.

I can't believe my eyes.  Since the majority of FORUM contributors also post
to Hungary -- and saying about the same things -- why are some people
attacking
FORUM in such a visceral manner?  Could it be that they found themselves on
the
losing side of some of the debates and now, having "escaped" to this list
they
take advantage of some of Hungary's readers not speaking Hungarian -- and
unable
to check the veracity of their charges - to denounce the entire FORUM from
here?
And now we see Andras Kornai, one of the stalwarts of liberal democratic
thinking
advocating censorship:

>I also repeatedly urged Jo1zsi Hollo1si to close down that rathole
>(which on free speech principles he always refused).

As to the often-deplored name-calling on FORUM, A.K. writes:

>I did call him a Nazi scumbag and I stand by this statement.   NPA is a
>virulent antisemite.

But he is rather thin-skinned himself:

>... I was more upset by
>Andra1s Pellionisz calling me Jewish than by anything ever produced by NPA

Why do you consider this an insult?  I know people who are proud of it.
I can't imagine myself being upset if someone called me Christian ;-)

Now back to NPA:  Here is what I know, based from what I have read on FORUM:
Two letters were received by his employers, accusing him of sending
pornographic and antisemitic material via the Internet using his corporate
or, rather, .gov account.  The official charges were his use of the account
for private correspondance.  But the denunciations were prompted by the
content of his mailings.  Those of us who have been around for a while know
that in office politics -- as everywhere else -- often there are unofficial
agendas behind official actions.  So NPA was not smart enough not to expose
himself to official, legitimate sanctions and his enemies took advantage.
Yes, he was wrong to write from his employer's account.  But then, he is not
alone in this.  I may be wrong, but almaden.ibm.com looks like a company
account, too.


Ferenc
+ - Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:28 AM 6/9/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak wrote:
" the majority of FORUM contributors also post
to Hungary"

That is not true, thanks God.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Nephadsereg (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:34 PM 6/5/96, Csaba Zoltani (ASHPC/CTD) wrote:
>A good reference, from the Western perspective, on the training,
>composition and doctrine of the Hungarian Army in the Warsaw Pact days
>is Chapter 5 of
>
>        Ivan Volgyes, The Political Reliability of the
>        Warsaw Pact Armies: the Southern Tier.
>        Duke Press Policy Studies
>        Durham, NC 1982
>
>In the light of this study, the explanation for the behavior of the Army
>during the Szabadsagharc of '56 becomes quite clear.
>
>CSABA K ZOLTANI


See also

A magyar Nephadsereg es az 1956-os forradalom. 1956 EVKONYV (1992):  157-170.

order from: Az 1956-os Intezet, 1074 Budapest, Dohany-u 74. II. em.  Hungary

Berki Mihaly. HADSEREG VEZETES NELKUL. Budapest: Magyar Media, 1989.

Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

+ - Re: Yes, '56 was a 'Szabadsagharc' (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:10 PM 6/7/96, Joe Szalai wrote:
>Peter I. Hidas wrote:
>
>>The events in Hungary in 1956 should be called a revolution because
>>1. the revolutionaries in Budapest forced the formation of a new type of
>>government which was no longer responsible to Moscow;
>
>Tito took Yugoslavia away from Moscow.  Was he, and his supporters,
>revolutionaries too?

My view is that this is important in combination with my other points. Tito
broke with Russia but not with communism.
>
>>2. the communist party lost its monopoly of power;
>
>Political parties lose power all the time, and for all kinds of reasons.
>

The question is how the change take place. In Hungary the change occurred
via violence, an uprising. In democratic countries we vote.


>>5. the workers began to change the economy from state socialism to
>>cooperative ownership;
>
>I'd be interested in knowing the differences between state socialism and
>cooperative ownership.

In  the first case the factory is owned by the state, in the second
instance the owners are the workers and managers of a given plant. There
are co-ops in Canada, Israel and many other Western countries. Their
existence does not change the political nature of the location.

You may want to look at

MAGYAR MUNKASTANACSOK 1956-BAN. Parizs: Magyar Fuzetek, 1986.

Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

+ - readers/contributors of the FORUM (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sun, 9 Jun 1996, S or G Farkas wrote:

> At 09:28 AM 6/9/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak wrote:
> " the majority of FORUM contributors also post
> to Hungary"
>
> That is not true, thanks God.
>
> Gabor D. Farkas
>

Ferenc,

I am another FORMER reader of FORUM.  It took me only a couple of weeks
to decide to cancel my subscription due to the contents of its postings.
I know many others who did the same.

How many names can you cite from the joint contributors' list?  Facts
would speak louder than a general statement.

Martha
+ - Re: Yes, '56 was a 'Szabadsagharc' (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I have followed with fascination the argument over the proper terminology
applicable to the events of 1956 in Hungary.  For a while I could not quite
comprehend the ferocity of some (Szucs, Kornai) over the word
"szabadsagharc".  At first I thought it was an honest debate.  Until now,
when I received the volume "1956 plakatjai es roplapjai" (Zrinyi Kiado,
1991).  This is a book of facsimiles of posters and flyers produced in
Hungary during the period October 22 - November 5, 1956.  There are numerous
references to the "forradalom es szabadsagharc" (revolution and freedom
fight) in the present tense. ( Of course, these references disappeared on Nov
4, the day of full-scale Soviet invasion.  On the proclamations by the Soviet
Army from Nov 4 on, the word is, naturally, "ellenforradalom" ,
counter-revolution.)

Now, for me, whatever the revolutionaries called their actions is good
enough.  Actually, the term "szabadsagharc" covers the action pretty well.
 It was a fight for freedom, a taking up of arms in defense of the revolution
(and not a "war of independence", as some have tried, incorrectly, to
translate the word; that would have been "fuggetlensegi haboru"
in Hungarian, which is the term used for the events in America during the
events beginning in 1776).

Anyway, I don't think anyone ought to be upset because some people don't like
the term "szabadsagharc". For example, it would be folly to expect communists
or their sympathizers to do so.  There is another group, the one-time liberal
communists as well as non-communists who, in exchange for certain privileges,
agreed to serve, or at least not to oppose, the Kadar-type "soft
dictatorship".  A thin layer of society thus managed to live quite well, even
travel abroad and send their children to be educated in the West.
 Unfortunately, until 1989 only such loyal types and their offspring were
allowed to come to the West, and today they comprise the majority of young
educated Hungarians  abroad.  Now that spoiled generation is serving as
apologists for the defunct regime, if not openly, then by trying to discredit
those who fought against the communist oppression.  Their dishonesty is the
lasting legacy of the corrupting influence of the Kadar years.   We might as
well give up on this group and hope that now that no one in Hungary needs a
party secretary's approval to be admitted to college and to travel abroad,
another generation will come that will not have theideological baggage of
some of the current crop and is willing to see things as they really were.

Ferenc
+ - Used Notebooks/Desktops To Send To Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I need some one to help me sell used systems in HUNGARY
i speak hungarian and can help set them up via email
anyone ?



http://www.complast.com  OR  http://www.autoroute.net/~complex
E-Mail    OR    
+ - Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai wrote to Eva Balogh :
>I don't read the Hungarian language FORUM but you once mentioned
>that most of the contributors to it live in the United States.

This is quite far from the truth (she lied as I would say it over-
there, in Forum). At least half of the  writers of the Forum are
writing from Hungary. Large part of the other moiety are temporary
abroad, on scholarships or studying something. (i am going to be a
little bit more precise: there are two regulars from the states in
Forum, and Eva managed to fall out both of them. I consider it as
somewhat an american thingy.)

It seems to me, that the biggest difference between the two lists is
that the most writers of this list are settled down abroad and are
living there a full life in their new home country (I don't want to
touch political differences because I think they are secondary).
That's why here English is spoken and Hungarian overthere. Also, we
stick to the the Hungarian rules in discussions, while the Anglosaxon
way of arguments are favoured here.

Mostly, I would say, because sometimes few writers here are used to ma-
nage to low themselves to surprisingly deep level. They are cuccko's
eggs in both groups, nevertheless prefer to stay here, and we are hap-
py with this overthere. And we are extremely joyful, that the Kornai-
like bastards of communist nomenclatura prefer exclusively this group.

Tamas
+ - Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:28 AM 6/9/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak wrote:

>Yes, he was wrong to write from his employer's account.  But then, he is not
>alone in this.  I may be wrong, but almaden.ibm.com looks like a company
>account, too.

Don't let your conspiracy theories get the best of you, Ferenc.
@library.uwaterloo.ca also looks like a company account.  And it is!
However, the University of Waterloo, besides being my employer, is also my
internet server.   Others might have similar arragements.  And there's
nothing wrong with that unless you want everyone to subscribe to expensive
commercial servers.

I don't know NPA and I don't know what happened to him.  But tell me this,
Ferenc.  Do you know of anyone who was fired from their job for making
non-offensive posts?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Surname "Hodas" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  says...
>
>Could someone give me an idea of how common the surname "Hodas" is in
Hungary
>please?  Particularly Budapest?  Thank you for any answers...Pamela
It is very uncommon.  However, it is possible, that there was a spelling
mistake in the name, which should may be "Hidas".  Hidas is not very
common either, but would make more sense.  Regards, Agnes
+ - Re: Requiem for Demszky... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>
>At 01:59 PM 6/4/96 -0400, JZs wrote:
>
>>so, let's say if Rabin's son married with Mengele's grand-daughter it
would
>>not be odd, just about fine and the peoples in Israel should or would
not be
>>surprised or confused. Also if Mr.Dole's son and Mr.Himmler's
grand-daughter
>>have the same affair that would be all right, nobody would care with it
in the
>>US, nobody would try to use it against Dole and generally it would not
affect
>>his career as politician or presidental candidate. Hmmm, interesting!
>
>I lost three of my four grandparents (the fourth one was lucky to die of
a
>heart-attack earlier), an uncle and an aunt  in Auschwitz, my mother
went
>through a death-march from Auschwitz to a Czech village. However,
(although
>I don't know her, maybe she doesn't even exist) I would not hold
Mengele's
>granddaughter responsible for her grandfather's deeds. It seems that the
>population of Budapest agrees with this principle since they elected
Demszky
>mayor, despite his marriage.
>
>Furthermore, to compare Revai with Mengele and Himmler is "ko:lto"i
>tu'lza's" (finoman mondva).[poetic exageration (to be nice)].
>
>Gabor D. Farkas

Well said, Gabor!  For 2,000 years we were held accountable because our
ancestors allegedly killed Jesus of Nazaret.  Senki sem felelos apai
buneert!

Regards, Agnes
+ - Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:34 PM 6/9/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>Do you know of anyone who was fired from their job for making
>non-offensive posts?

Most companies that have policies on using the company e-mail (in the US) do
have strict rules about the use of the e-mail for personal purposes. It is
common that it is described as cause for dismissal. Corporations do not like
to be exposed to consequences of their employees' private mail.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Rules of discussion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Kocsis Tam's wrote:
"we
stick to the the Hungarian rules in discussions[in the Forum], while the
Anglosaxon
way of arguments are favoured here [in the Hungary]".

Could someone please explain the difference between the two rules?

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tamas Kocsis wrote, quoting Joe Szalai:


>>I don't read the Hungarian language FORUM but you [meaning Eva Balogh]
once mentioned
>>that most of the contributors to it live in the United States.
>
>This is quite far from the truth (she lied as I would say it over-
>there, in Forum).

        Joe Szalai didn't remember right. There are a few very vocal
Hungarians, living in the United States, still many of the ontributors come
from all over and quite a few from Hungary. As for Tama's Kocsis's sentence
above: indeed, this is how they would say it on the FORUM! That's why it is
such a pleasant discussion forum it is! The "Hungarian rules of discussion"
seem to consist of personal attacks, calling your opponent a liar, accusing
him/her of denounciations. Just to be generally ugly. The Anglo-Saxon rules
are obviously not to their liking. Far too polite!

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:35 AM 6/9/96 +0100, Kocsis Tam=E1s wrote:

>Mostly, I would say, because sometimes few writers here are used to ma-
>nage to low themselves to surprisingly deep level. They are cuccko's
>eggs in both groups, nevertheless prefer to stay here, and we are hap-
>py with this overthere. And we are extremely joyful, that the Kornai-
>like bastards of communist nomenclatura prefer exclusively this group.

I'm glad too!  While I usually don't agree with his economic philosophy, he
has always been a fair and reasoned contributor to this list.  Besides, on
some social issues, he and I are not too far apart.  Boy, if the
contributors to the FORUM don't like Andras, they'd hate me.  Too bad I
can't engage them.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Yes, '56 was a 'Szabadsagharc' (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:52 AM 6/9/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak wrote:

>Anyway, I don't think anyone ought to be upset because some people don't
>like the term "szabadsagharc". For example, it would be folly to expect
>communists or their sympathizers to do so.  There is another group, the
>one-time liberal communists as well as non-communists who, in exchange for
>certain privileges, agreed to serve, or at least not to oppose, the
>Kadar-type "soft dictatorship".  A thin layer of society thus managed to
>live quite well, even travel abroad and send their children to be educated
>in the West.  Unfortunately, until 1989 only such loyal types and their
>offspring were allowed to come to the West, and today they comprise the
>majority of young educated Hungarians  abroad.  Now that spoiled generation
>is serving as apologists for the defunct regime, if not openly, then by
>trying to discredit those who fought against the communist oppression.
>Their dishonesty is the lasting legacy of the corrupting influence of the
>Kadar years.   We might as well give up on this group and hope that now
that >no one in Hungary needs a party secretary's approval to be admitted to
>college and to travel abroad, another generation will come that will not
>have the ideological baggage of some of the current crop and is willing to
>see things as they really were.

In case you haven't noticed, Ferenc, the Cold War is over.  Yet, you are
still fighting it.  Why?  Do you have an extreme right wing axe to grind?
Thousands of Hungarians left Hungary in the fall of 1956.  I've never heard
anyone of them call the events of October/November 1956 anything other than
the Hungarian Revolution.  Were we also the loyal, spoiled, privileged
apologist type?  Many of us received a western education but I don't think
that Kadar had anything to do with it.  So, not being Kadar lackeys, why do
you think that we call it the Hungarian Revolution?  I guess the idea of
cultural convention doesn't mean anything to you.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:35 AM 6/9/96 +0100, you wrote:
>Joe Szalai wrote to Eva Balogh :
>>I don't read the Hungarian language FORUM but you once mentioned
>>that most of the contributors to it live in the United States.
>
>This is quite far from the truth (she lied as I would say it over-
>there, in Forum). At least half of the  writers of the Forum are
>writing from Hungary.

Good heavens dear Group!  ... could Tamas Kocsis be another alias of our
beloved Dr. Szucs coming to life? His words do sound familiar!!
>
>Large part of the other moiety are temporary
>abroad, on scholarships or studying something. (i am going to be a
>little bit more precise: there are two regulars from the states in
>Forum, and Eva managed to fall out both of them. I consider it as
>somewhat an american thingy.)
>
Could you "Tamas" or anyone out there explain "somewhat an american thingy"???

>Also, we
>stick to the the Hungarian rules in discussions, while the Anglosaxon
>way of arguments are favoured here.

Firstly; I have been a Hungarian for as long as I can remember!  No one has
*ever* taught me the "Hungarian rules in discussions"  -  Perhaps you can.
Secondly: "Anglosaxon way of arguments" - How about defining that too?
>
>Mostly, I would say, because sometimes few writers here are used to ma-
>nage to low themselves to surprisingly deep level. They are cuccko's
>eggs in both groups, nevertheless prefer to stay here, and we are hap-
>py with this overthere. And we are extremely joyful, that the Kornai-
>like bastards of communist nomenclatura prefer exclusively this group.

OH I see!  You don't like Kornai!  And, so, anyone else that might enjoy his
posts are automatically categorized as "bastards of communist nomenclature"?
Is this an example of the "hungarian rules in discussions"?


Aniko

>
>
+ - Charlie's Kindergarten Apologia (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mr C Varmossy wrote on 7 July:

>Tom,  you may wish to go back to school for a double PhD and this time
>do research on the treatment of Jewish refugees from Europe who
>desparately tried to get into the US but were turned away by the US
>Government.

In turn, Mr Vamossy, you may wish to upgrade your skills and return to
kindergarten for a course in common courtesy and elementary logic. What are
you struggling to say? That the moral stupor of the USA during the
Holocaust (with which, for your information, I'm familiar and suitably
unimpressed) somehow condones the moral stupor of the Christian Churches in
Hungary? If so, why not come straight out and say it instead of retreating
into high dudgeon?

>...at the same time its
>worth remembering that people living in glass houses are really better
>off avoiding throwing stones.

Good one Charlie. Why don't you take your own gratuitous advice?

Kramer
+ - Re: Yes, '56 was a 'Szabadsagharc' (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article <v01530501addf31afbd87@[198.168.48.45]>,
 says...
>
>>>The events in Hungary in 1956 should be called a revolution because
>>>1. the revolutionaries in Budapest forced the formation of a new type of
>>>government which was no longer responsible to Moscow;
>>
>>Tito took Yugoslavia away from Moscow.  Was he, and his supporters,
>>revolutionaries too?
>
>My view is that this is important in combination with my other points. Tito
>broke with Russia but not with communism.

Was it not true that Imre Nagy also did not break with communism (albeit
maintaining the link with his own interpretation of communism rather than
the Moscow brand)?

Regards,

George
+ - Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary, Stones and Glass Hou (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Charlie Vamossy wrote:

>You see Tom, I agree with you that man's inhumanity to man
>unfortunately knows no limits or boundaries. But at the same time its
>worth remembering that people living in glass houses are really better
>off avoiding throwing stones.

        And here is the posting of Tom:

>The attitude of the
>Hungarian Christian Churches to the so-called "Jewish Question" during the
>years 1938-45 could most charitably be described as one of moral stupor.
>For the information of listmembers, my PhD was awarded for research on the
>Holocaust in Hungary.

        I am not an apologist for the Horthy regime and I don't claim that
either the Hungarian government or the Hungarian people behaved in an
impeccable fashion between 1939 and 1945 but one ought to keep the proper
perspective. While most of East Europe's Jews had been either perished in
concentration camps or became living skeletons, Hungary's Jews were still
shielded from extermination. Sure, economically and professional they
suffered terribly but most of them (with very few exceptions) were still in
Hungary in relative, although precarious, safety. And this was the case
until the summer of 1944. I think it would be terribly wrong to forget this.

        Moreover, many, many Polish Jews escaped from Poland in 1939 through
Hungary. I myself met several of them. Priests and ministers did try to help
by issuing phoney baptismal certificates. Sure, they were not as heroic as
one could have been. But no one in Europe was.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Christian symbols et al. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:47 AM 6/8/96 -0500, Sven wrote:
>> The Hungarian
>>coat of arms developed through medieval times when such symbols were a way
>>of life.
>> I still look upon the Hungarian coat of
>>arms with its double cross (with or without crowns) as the symbol of our
>>1,100-year statehood.
>
>Thank you for your enlightening comments, Eva.
>
        Well, Sven, unfortunately for you, coats of arms are on the
traditional side. One just doesn't sit down and dream up a new coat of arms.
When you do such a thing you end of with the Rakosi atrocity which neither
Martha nor I can even recall! One can't just say: well, we are a modern
country today and therefore we will dream up a new coat of arms! Whether you
like or not, this is the coat of arms of Hungary, double cross in the right
field and a crooked cross on top of the crown.

        Modern antisemitism, of course, doesn't have anything to do with the
fact that Hungary has a coat of arms with a cross in it. Why on earth do you
insist on coupling this two? It makes no sense.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: HASZNALT komputereket akkarok kuldeni (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:27 PM 6/8/96 -0400, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>>magyar orszagba
>> ellemel mukodik fajta gep
>>386 486 es pentium
>>menyen a lapra  http://www.complast.com/hotdealo.htm
>>
>>http://www.complast.com  OR  http://www.autoroute.net/~complex
>>E-Mail    OR    
>
>Aki nem tud ragzani, ne beszeljen magyaras! :-)
>(vagy tanuljon meg)

        Janos, Janos! Don't be so intolerant! Be happy that someone is
trying to learn that awfully difficult language of ours. Look, in the United
States people don't ridicule foreigners because their English is not always
impeccable! In fact, they are very polite and rarely even correct you. I
used to be annoyed about this in Canada, when I was learning English.
Everybody told me that I was doing just fine and no one ever corrected my
mistakes. I remember so vividly that I put the definite article before the
word "God" several times, and no one corrected me (that's how it goes in
Hungarian) until a Swiss friend said: "Eva, it is not "the God." I never
made that mistake again, believe me! But, please, don't ridicule the person.
It is not only unkind but it reflects badly on Hungarians who ought to be
pleased that some people are actually trying the learn the language.

        Eva Balogh


        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Ferenc Novak's mind works in interesting ways:

>Suddenly, we see that people who told us they had "left" FORUM are still
>lurking there.  (Before anyone takes offense, the term "lurking" means being
>passive readers of a newsgroup, i.e. just reading and not writing.)

        There are five thousand readers of HIX lists. I don't contribute to
the Forum but it doesn't mean that I don't read it. Sure, I do. I am darn
curious what the contributors of Forum can come up with. And indeed, they
did come up with this ridiculous story of NPA's denunciation.

>Some of
>them even read things that were never written, e.g. Eva Balogh's observation
>of NPA's "tearful" account of what had happened to him.

        Well, I interpreted it as a tearful account. He was playing the role
of deeply wronged individual.

>>   ... The
>>FORUM is full of cries of indignation against the United States, against the
>>Jews, against the liberals, against all those alien elements, who are, in an
>>"un-Hungarian" way, denounce others.
>
>Eva, would you kindly supply some evidence?  And please, no two-year-old,
>out-of-context stuff this time ;-)

        Well, let's start with "the two-year-old, out-of-context stuff." I
would appreciate if you were a bit more logical. Let's recall exactly what
happened. I mentioned that NPA wrote a piece on the Forum in which he
discussed blood libel stories. You answered indignantly, practically
accusing me of lying. What you said was that you have been a reader of the
Forum for a very long time but you have never encountered such an article.
You doubted that such an article existed. When I produced the article, you
consider it "two-year-old, out-of-context stuff." You mean if it was written
two years ago it is obsolete? Why is it out of context? So, please, at least
use a bit of logic! As far as supplying new evidence, I am not supplying it.
The last time I supplied it it didn't satisfy you. You must be reading the
Forum very selectively, if you can't find letters of indignation in which
people accuse the United States and those individuals (and "we know, of
course," who they are). I consider some of the letters outright threatening
against those people whom they consider the culprits.


>Also in Hungary#692, A. Kornai writes:
>
>> Mr. Neme1nyi and his kind are not worthy of debate, and I never
>>engaged in any debate with him. When it was clear that FORUM was taken over
>by
>>similar scum, I left (together with some other people -- the story is all
>>spelled out in the FORUM archives).  I have repeatedly urged others (E1va
>>Balogh can witness this) to stay away.
>
>I can't believe my eyes.  Since the majority of FORUM contributors also post
>to Hungary -- and saying about the same things -- why are some people
>attacking
>FORUM in such a visceral manner?

        As Gabor Farkas rightly pointed out the majority of Forum
contributors don't post to Hungary. Thank God. We don't hear "Rambo Arpi"'s
rantings and ravings; we normally don't from "Olorin," from "Pyro,"  Zoltan
Noe, NPA, Siraly, IMTorok, and one could go on and on, just to mention to
most offensive contributors.

>Could it be that they found themselves on
>the
>losing side of some of the debates and now, having "escaped" to this list
>they
>take advantage of some of Hungary's readers not speaking Hungarian -- and
>unable
>to check the veracity of their charges - to denounce the entire FORUM from
>here?

        I don't consider myself on the loosing side. Simply put, it is not
worth trying to argue with these people. It doesn't really matter whether
you quote positive proof from historical documents, such proof means nothing
to them. They believe in their own version of history and nothing will
change their minds. This is no debate!

>And now we see Andras Kornai, one of the stalwarts of liberal democratic
>thinking
>advocating censorship:
>
>>I also repeatedly urged Jo1zsi Hollo1si to close down that rathole
>>(which on free speech principles he always refused).

        To tell you the truth, I myself wrote to Jozsef Hollosi. I objected
to the base language being used, the personal attacks, the ugly tone and so
on. He shoves all this under the rug, claiming that this is freedom of
speech. But this is not freedom of speech--this is libel, racism, antisemitism.


>As to the often-deplored name-calling on FORUM, A.K. writes:
>
>>I did call him a Nazi scumbag and I stand by this statement.   NPA is a
>>virulent antisemite.

        As I said. Yes, NPA is an antisemite and he is not alone on the
Forum. Without naming names, there are several others.


>But he is rather thin-skinned himself:
>
>>... I was more upset by
>>Andra1s Pellionisz calling me Jewish than by anything ever produced by NPA

        Because Andras Kornai is not Jewish.

>Why do you consider this an insult?  I know people who are proud of it.
>I can't imagine myself being upset if someone called me Christian ;-)

        I am sure he would feel proud if he were Jewish but he isn't.

>Now back to NPA:  Here is what I know, based from what I have read on FORUM:
>Two letters were received by his employers, accusing him of sending
>pornographic and antisemitic material via the Internet using his corporate
>or, rather, .gov account.  The official charges were his use of the account
>for private correspondance.  But the denunciations were prompted by the
>content of his mailings.

        Why are you so sure that those letters were actually received? When
someone asked NPA for more proof, he answered that he had no proof. He
received this information verbally but not in writing. So, we have only
NPA's word for this. But the fact is that people don't always tell the truth.

        NPA's sudden trip--away from the computer--sounds suspicious to me.
Just when his admirers offer to write a letter to his employers on his
behalf, he disappears. I wonder why!

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Yes, '56 was a 'Szabadsagharc' (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:52 AM 6/9/96 -0400, Ferenc Novak wrote:

>Now, for me, whatever the revolutionaries called their actions is good
>enough.  Actually, the term "szabadsagharc" covers the action pretty well.
> It was a fight for freedom, a taking up of arms in defense of the revolution
>(and not a "war of independence", as some have tried, incorrectly, to
>translate the word; that would have been "fuggetlensegi haboru"
>in Hungarian, which is the term used for the events in America during the
>events beginning in 1776).

        You are wrong. The Magyar Nyelv Ertelmezo Szotara says the
following: "Szabadsagharc = Elnyomott nepek szabadsagaert, fuggetlensegeert
vivott harca. A magyar nep ilyen harca 1848-49-ben.


>There is another group, the one-time liberal
>communists as well as non-communists who, in exchange for certain privileges,
>agreed to serve, or at least not to oppose, the Kadar-type "soft
>dictatorship".

        Who were the liberal communists? The two words can't really appear
together. Do you mean "reform communists"?

>A thin layer of society thus managed to live quite well, even
>travel abroad and send their children to be educated in the West.
> Unfortunately, until 1989 only such loyal types and their offspring were
>allowed to come to the West, and today they comprise the majority of young
>educated Hungarians  abroad.

        This is not so either. According to official statistics, 6,000
Hungarian students are studying abroad currently. Don't tell me that all of
these come from "liberal communist" families?


>Now that spoiled generation is serving as
>apologists for the defunct regime, if not openly, then by trying to discredit
>those who fought against the communist oppression.

        Again, I strongly disagree with you. They are not apologists for the
defunct regime. They are simply trying to explain that the Kadar regime was
the most tolerable regime in Eastern Europe. And I don't think that anyone
can argue about this. Moreover, the majority of the ordinary Hungarians
today feel quite nostalgic for the Kadar regime, while those spoiled
children of the privileged elite don't.

        As far as discrediting those who fought against communist oppression
in 1956 nobody ever tried to discredit me for my role in 1956 from the
"liberal communist" side; just the opposite it was such people as Tama's
Kocsis, a young man who is supposedly a good nationalist Hungarian. He also
tried to discredit the whole revolution. We "revolutionaries" make him sick,
he said! Please, do read some of the postings from your own side.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Rejected posting to HUNGARY@GWUVM.GWU.EDU (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Well,I hate to disturb your happy and delightfull weekend,
but as you honoured me with mentioning my name,I have
to answer your accusations.You were right to to call me stupid,
when I called the traitor to step forward.I should have known
better,rats,like these,staying in anomity.You should know it,
my good man.I'm quiet annoyed,that you are so well informed
about the "rathole",witch you hate so much,that you urged Joe
Hollosi to close down numerous times.Well,who the bloody
hell do you think you are old chap?Do you think,that the "Internet"
should compromise only the "politically correct" types?Whoever
doesn't share your opinion,is a nazi,antisemite,fascist who has
to be shoot out,annihilated?Are we living on the same planet?
Or you are "more equall than the others"?Strange world,isn't it?
You called NPA a "nazi scumbag",of witch you are quiet proud of,
but when Dr.Pellionnis called you a "jew",you were offended.
Since when is a offence to call a "jew" a "jew"?Don't tell me that
you are a closet-antisemite yourself.As  concerning the recent
"judas-reporting".If that were happening to you,I would have been
offended as much,as it happened to NPA.I'm not to shure,that you
have the potential to understand this.So let me put this on the simple
way.First of all,if you are anxious to find some real antisemite-material,
 look somewhere else. NPA never wrote anti-Israel,or hate-mongering
letters,as you claim .Neither anti-american letters.What I'm suggesting
here mate,that you are distorting the truth,together with your "lady-pro-
fessor".What I mean that you are lieing,if you understand my expression.
Second:you don't own the "Internet".There is so far a free expression of
opinions,liked or not.Your "nazis" or "fascist" are all dead,or very old,we
are the "after war"generation who doesn't care what happened before the
war,but very concerned what happened after.And for your record: to be a
anti-semite (whatever this means) is illegal in the U.S of A. To be a anti-
-hungarian (as you and your kind) is "who the f..... cares?"
And for the "martire" stereotypes: nobody accused Mr.Farkas as a potential
traitor,or a member of the "securitate".There was a mention of the name,as
potential reporter of Mr.Elek,but read the latest "Forum",I shot down all of
them.
You see,Rambo Arpi is walking tall,not like some of you.As to mention Mr.Elek,
I feel sorry for him.For years he fought my views,and,as he arrived home,he
realised,that were all reality.Pity, isn'it?Anyway,it's enough for today,have a
joyeous hatefull weekend.What I mean is your  latest "fruit of hard labour" wil
l
be bitter.Very bitter.What I mean is your deed is served the opposite.
The Rambo Arpi.
+ - Re: Yes, '56 was a 'Szabadsagharc' (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:10 PM 6/9/96 GMT, George Szaszvari wrote:

>Was it not true that Imre Nagy also did not break with communism (albeit
>maintaining the link with his own interpretation of communism rather than
>the Moscow brand)?


Yes he did. However, during his short period of governing the country I
think he did allow other parties to exist and I am sure that had he been
given a chance, free election would have taken place. These events did not
happen under Tito.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sun, 9 Jun 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:

> contributors to the FORUM don't like Andras, they'd hate me.  Too bad I
> can't engage them.
>
> Joe Szalai

Joe,

There is nothing to hold you back from brushing up your Hungarian,
provided you are so motivated.  Get going!  There are books and records;
tapes and CDs at your disposal.  You are right there in the library: look
them up.  Your community has many Hungarians: find them.

If you need specifics, put a query to this group.  Lots of help would come
your way.

You are very fortunate that you don't have to start from scratch like
some others, - like Johanne, for example.  It should not take you too long
before you'd feel comfortable enough to at least READ it reasonably well.

It can never hurt you to speak the language of your parents.   Make that
your next project.

Good luck.
Martha
+ - Imre Nagy memorial consecrated (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

According to news just out of Budapest, the statue/memorial of Nagy has been
unveiled and consecrated today on Martyrs' Square. (Vertanu ter; V ker.)

Several thousands participated in the event, in spite of a heatwave.

Martha
+ - Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

If anyone is wondering what the real difference is between "the
rules of Hungarian debate," and the rules of Algo-Saxon debate, one ought to
read Tama's Kocsis's own piece, especially the following:

>And we are extremely joyful, that the Kornai-
>like bastards of communist nomenclatura prefer exclusively this group.


        Anyone who has been on this list long enough knows darn well that
Andras Kornai is not a communist bastard. This is a personal attack on
Andras and his family. Janos Kornai, the famous Hungarian economist, wasn't
a Communist bastard either. I met him several times: the first time sometime
in the second half of the 1960s. He was no communist. Janos Kornai ever
since 1954 has been a consistent critic of the Rakosi and Kadar regimes. He
had the guts to publish (by Hungarian law illegally) a book abroad, which
appeared in English in 1957. It was a frontal attack on the socialist
economy. He coined the word "economy of scarcity." So much for Andras's father.

        As far as Andras is concerned he is a true democrat. I have never
heard him utter a word which would have had a ring of "communism" to it.
Sure, he doesn't like nazis, antisemites, racists, and occasionaly he
expresses himself more forcefully than I would. But that doesn't make him a
"bastard of communist nomenclatura."

        So, this is how the anti-liberal elements in Hungary argue. That's
how they attack people. Well, someone could say: but Andras Kornai called
NPA a nazi. But NPA is a nazi! I spotted him as soon as I began reading the
HIX publications more than two and a half years ago. The discussion centered
around the Bolshevik revolution and I said something to the effect that most
likely the Bolshevik revolution would have taken place without the outbreak
of World War I. NPA answered: the outbreak of the Bolshevik revolution was
decided when a Jewish banker loaned a few million dollars to Japan in 1904!
I immediately knew that I was talking to a man who ardently believes in
international Jewish conspiracies.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Rules of discussion (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, S or G Farkas
> writes:

>Could someone please explain the difference between the two rules?
>
>Gabor D. Farkas

American rules preclude the use of metal eye-gougers or chewing off an
opponent's ears.
Sam Stowe

Ceci n'est pas un sig

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