||Re: kadar-forgiveness (mind)
|| 13 sor
||Honor the memory (November 8-24, 1956) (mind)
|| 228 sor
||Petrovics-Ofner on 1956 (mind)
|| 75 sor
||Kadar's popularity (mind)
|| 39 sor
||To Eva Balogh Joe Pannon&Peter Hidas (mind)
|| 25 sor
||F.A. Volgyesi (mind)
|| 20 sor
||Dayton Conference Project (mind)
|| 56 sor
||FREE $$$ MAKING SOFTWARE !!! (mind)
|| 46 sor
||HUNGARY Robertnek es a tobbinek : Gero/Ger vita (mind)
|| 5 sor
||Kadar - Forgiveness (mind)
|| 38 sor
||Re: Kadar - Forgiveness (mind)
|| 99 sor
||Re: Request for copy of Honor the Memory (mind)
|| 25 sor
||Re: Kadar - Forgiveness (mind)
|| 12 sor
||Re: Kadar - Forgiveness (mind)
|| 34 sor
|| 111 sor
||Re: Suicide (mind)
|| 63 sor
||Christian Rescuers of Hun (mind)
|| 41 sor
|+ - ||Re: kadar-forgiveness (mind)
>One thing that has always puzzled me, now that we are on the subject of
>56, is why did most Hungarians forgive Kadar, the so called turn
>coat? obviously his puha dicatatorship and economic successes improved
>his image, but was he was for the most part-emigres excepted-forgiven.
>Or were most Hungarians just so apathetic-or tired-that
>the past no longer mattered.
I cannot explain better than with Stockholm Syndrom overtaking the
|+ - ||Honor the memory (November 8-24, 1956) (mind)
NOTE: This is the last segment of a memoir of the Hungarian Revolution, which
consisted of 15 such daily segments. In these pages, I tried to pay tribute
to the memories of two of the martyrs of 1956: Istvan Angyal and Janos
Danner. If you would like me to send you the complete text (325,000 bits, or
55,000 words) please let me know. I will also be happy to place this material
into any archive, which might ask for it.
My apologies for the spelling errors in some Hungarian words. This is due
to the presently still limited alphabet on the Internet. The fact that I want
to correctly use all the Hungarian accent marks in the hard printed copies,
this causes problems with the E-Mailed text. So the accented vowels are
deleted on and some are converted by . I hope that in
spite of that, you find the manuscript legible.
I would also like to ask, that if you find any factual errors
(names, dates, places, etc.), please let me know at , or if
you write about such errors on any of the open forums, please send me a
personal copy of your corrections.
Best regards: Be'la Lipta'k
The poem, which I selected to introduce this last section can not be
translated. It is by Sandor Marai and it captures the inhospitable world of
"Emle'keid sze'tesnek, mint rigi szo"vetek,
O"ssze tudod me'g rakni a Margit Szigetet?
Mert ez maradt. Zsugorian me'g sza'mbaveheted
A Miko' utca gesztenyefa'it, mind a hetet,
E's Jeno" nem adta vissza a Shelley-ko"tetet..
Az ohio'i ba'nya'ban megbicsaklik kezed.
A csa'ka'ny koppan e's lehull nevedro"l az e'kezet."
As I am dressing, I notice that my arm-band has disappeared. This is my
mother's style. On the other hand, it might be better this way, because I
would not have taken it off on my own, and wearing it, would be an invitation
It is a long walk back to Budapest. When I reach the city, I can tell
form the blasts, that Pista Angyal did not get his cease-fire from the
Russians. The cannon fire and explosions are unceasing. The whole IXth
District is covered in smoke. Pista Angyal and his boys are putting up quite
I let my feet do the thinking, which gets me to gate #2 of the
Technical University. Only when I get there, do I realize, that my home-base
is gone. Russian soldiers and Pufajkas are standing in the gate. Russian
tanks are everywhere. In spite of that, I can't help to get even closer and
finally I see a familiar face. It is Zsiga Nagy, one of the MEFESZ leaders of
the Agro-Technical University. He is approaching the gate from the opposite
direction, his expression is the same as mine. When he gets closer, I shake
my head and point to the other side of the street. He understands and follows
So, what is happening? - I ask him. The Pufajkas paid us a visit,
and I took off through the back door. - he replies. Well, that is my story
too. So what do we do? Well, whatever it is, let's do it together. - he
replies. After that we did a lot of walking. At each street corner, we would
stop and check for Russian patrols, before proceeding. Zsiga heard, that the
Russians are deporting those young people, whom they catch on the streets, to
the Ukraine. As night falls, we see a burned-out bus on Karinthy Street, and
decide to make it our bed room. I empty a couple of garbage cans to provide
some soft cover for the floor. My beautiful corduroy jacket acquires an other
layer of dirt and an other night passes.
After 39 years, the events of these days are no longer distinct in my
mind. They merge together into a couple of weeks of hopeless hiding,
depressed wandering and avoiding all the places where the Pufajkas might
expect us to go. In the early mornings, a Russian truck passes down Karinthy
Street, bringing bread to their troops. It has to make a sharp turn onto
Budafoki Street, therefore it slows down there. I am a good runner, most
mornings, even in boots, I can catch it, and on the days, when I do, we have
something to eat.
As the days pass, we make contact with the remaining centers of
resistance. Now the MEFESZ activity is directed from the Pest side of the
Danube, from the building of the old Piarist gymnasium. So we spend a few
days there, printing and distributing leaflets, which call for a general
strike and which demand the withdrawal of the Soviet troops. What we post in
the morning, the pufajkas rip off by the afternoon. Gyurka Gvmvri is one of
the leaders here, he wrote several of the handbills. (30 years later I ran
into him at Cambridge University, where he is a professor of Polish
We also ran into Igor Smk. His father is back as the foreign minister
of the puppet regime and often acts as it's UN representative also. Igor is
still doing his Russian lan guage, shortwave broadcasts. He is explaining to
the troops, that they are not at the Suez Canal, they are not fighting
Israelis or nazis, but are oppressing Hungarians.
On the 9th of November, we held a MEFESZ meeting in the student
dormitory in the Castle. Zsiga and I, we were appointed to maintain contact
with the Revolutionary Workers Council of Budapest. When the director of the
dormitory, a fellow named Kutassi, heard, that we are living in a burned out
bus, he forged some documents and for a week of so, we had our own beds in
On the 14th of November, I participated in the meeting at United Izzs,
which elected Sandor Racz as the president of all the Revolutionary Workers
Councils of Budapest. Sandor was a deeply religious, 23 years old peasant
boy. A born leader. He was patriotic, brave and as all real statesman do, he
understood, that his job was not to follow public opinion, but to lead it. He
stationed armed guards around the factory, ordered a nation- wider general
strike and started negotiations with the real seat of power in Hungary, the
Russian military headquarters. He had a sense of history about him. What
impressed me most, was his inner strength. He always knew what is right, and
if something was, nothing else mattered. This was the last time I saw him.
(Later, similarly to General Maliter, he too was arrested during a
trick-meeting and later was sentenced to life imprisonment.)
The last meeting of the MEFESZ leadership, which I participated is,
was held on the 17th of November, on Viranyos Street, in an AVH cottage
temporarily abandoned by its owners. We learned that on the previous day,
several hundred arrests were made on the Pest side. One of those arrested was
my friend, Pista Angyal. Bila Janks, the MEFESZ leader of the Medical
University suggested, that we could do more for Hungary, by escaping to the
West. He asked for and received authorization to represent the ME FESZ in
exile. (Later he became the first international president of the Union of
Free Hungarian Students, and I of it's American section.)
About half the delegates, including myself, voted to stay and to
continue our efforts against the Russians, the rest felt, that resistance was
hopeless and MEFESZ activity should be terminated and we should disband. We
debated this late into the night and it was well after midnight when we,
Zsiga and I, left the meeting. Next day we learned, that those who stayed in
the cottage for the night, were all arrested by the pufajkas. So, by the 18th
of November, the majority of the MEFESZ leadership was either in jail or on
it's way to Austria.
While I was hiding in the student dormitory on Andras Hess Square, the
majority of the legitimate government of Hungary, headed by Imre Nagy, have
accepted asylum at and stayed in the Yugoslav Embassy of Budapest. On the
21st of November, Janos Kadar, the head of the Russian installed puppet
regime, guaranteed in writing to the Yugoslav Government, that no sanctions
will be applied against Imre Nagy and his ministers and that they are free to
On the 22nd of November at 6:30 PM, a bus was sent by Ferenc M|nnich,
an other Hungarian traitor, to take them from the Embassy to their homes.
When the group boarded, Soviet military personnel surrounded the bus, forced
the Yugoslavs to leave and took the government and their families, including
15 women and 17 children to Romania. (During the long interrogation and show
trials, they all maintained their innocence and bravely accused the Soviets
of aggression against a neutral nation. Giza Losonczy was murdered in jail,
Jszsef Szilagyi was hanged in April of 1958, while Imre Nagy, Pal Maliter and
Miklss Gimes followed him to the gallows on the 16th of June, 1958. The
others were eventually released in 1963.
Imre Nagy, the martyr prime minister thus joined his predecessors,
Lajos Batthyany, the prime minister, who paid with his life, for the
Hungarian fight for freedom in 1848 and Pal Teleki, the prime minister, who
committed suicide, when the Germans forced Hungary to give passage to their
troops in 1941.
It was late in the night of the 22nd, when Aptyi finally found me. He
has been looking for me for a week. He started looking when Radio Free Europe
reported that Hungarian refugees are arriving in Austria. The radio gave the
names of some of our cousins, who have already arrived, while the fighting
was still going on in Budapest. Aptyi visited our relatives in the capital
and out in the country, he visited the university a number of times and
finally decided to check here.
He was very worried. He told me, that since I left, the pufajkas paid
them two more visits and have also tried to find me at the university. They
do not know, that you are the Vcsi , the person whom the people around
Colonel Marian have already identified. It also seems, that they are
preparing some kind of a show trial for the Marian group. There is no
question that they are on your trail, you must escape.
I must have given him a scared and shocked look, because he turned
away, but repeated it once more: You must escape! I never contradicted my
Father in my life, it never occurred to me, that I ever could, but now I
said: I can not do that Aptyi, please do not make me do that! His eyes
filled with tears as he said: I will not survive it, if they capture you.
You and Piter must escape. But I don't want to live as an alien. I can not!
I just can not! - I continued pleading. He looked at me for a long time, he
was slowly shaking his head, tears were flowing on his sunburned face, as
finally, with much effort, he said: I will tell Piter too and let you know.
The 23rd of November was a dreadful day. I knew that I will obey my
Father's orders, yet I was hoping that he would change his mind. I spent the
day wondering on the narrow, medieval streets of Castle Hill. Here, every
stone is a history book, every window is a witness to the survival struggle
of this orphan island of Hungarians, besieged among the Germanic and the
When I get back to the dormitory a message is waiting for me. It is in
Aptyi's handwriting: Piter and I, we will be waiting for you tomorrow at 9
AM, at the Kelenfvld Railroad Station. My breath fails, my heart stops. What
do I do now? I can not think straight. Agnes might help! She might give me
It took me an hour to get there. She is still not home, nobody is. What
do I do? It is late in the afternoon. I must think. I need peace and quiet.
So I walk into a church. As I wonder around inside, a priest steps out of a
confessional and asks: Do you want to talk?
I grab the opportunity and he points me into the confessional. But we
don't communicate. He is an older man, he wants me to confess, but I don't
want his forgiveness, I want his advice. He is a talkative person and what I
am in need of is a listener.
He thinks that I want to confess. But I don't want to talk about my
sins. He thinks, that I am silent, because my sins are too great. So he tries
to console me: You know son, if one is defending one's homeland and kills in
the process, that person is a soldier and the Church does not condemn
soldiers. Freedom fighters are also defending their families against
aggressors, and as such, they have no choice. The old man keeps talking, I
don't say anything. He eventually absolves and blesses me. I leave without
saying anything about my problem.
I did not sleep all night, and next morning I was on time at the
Kelenfvld Railroad Station. The sight is reminiscent of the railroad stations
during the war. Parting families, crying mothers, grave and morose fathers.
Piter is ready, only Aptyi came with him: It would have been too much for
your Mother. - he says. The good-by is undescribable. After that, for miles
we hang out of the window, straining our eyes to see that tiny white spot, my
father's waving white handkerchief, which has long disappeared. (In our
family Bible, the only entries are births, weddings and funerals, with one
exception, which reads: My two little boys, Piterke and Vcsike, after
fighting to the end, in the heroic freedom- fight of 1956, on the 24th of
November, were compelled to escape the Russian reign of terror and fled to
The train-ride to Svar was uneventful. Most of the passengers were
heading to Austria. Some still carried their guns. On the train, no pufajkas
or Russians dared to show their faces. They felt safer behind the inch-thick
steel plates of their tanks. I don't recall, if the train went only as far as
Svar, or if we got off there for some other reason. In any case, we did.
The pufajkas have not yet arrived here. Only a few Russian tanks stood
on the main square. Their hatchways were closed, they had no contact with the
As the crow flies, we started walking toward the border. No border
guards, no Russians, nothing. We walked for about 10 miles, when on the
hillside behind us, we saw dark figures running toward us. There must have
been a hundred of them. It was early evening, more-less in the area, where we
expected to find the mine-fields. So we started to run towards Austria. As we
are running, I look back and see, that they are gaining on us. It was at this
point, that we both heard the sheep bells.
A shepherd boy was running in front, followed by his herd. When he
stopped, so did his herd and we were surrounded by a sheep herd. He was very
nice. He told us, that during the last weeks he gave a lot of directions to
people who wanted to go to Austria and these people usually left their
Hungarian Forints with him: You can't pay with Forints in Austria. - he
explained. On the other hand, I can use them just fine.
So I reached into the outside pocket of my corduroy jacket, and gave
him the 20 Forint bill, which I could not spend for a month. That glorious,
that undescribable month.
On the other side of the border, the hay-stacks smelled of peace. The
haycock felt invitingly soft as we settled into it for the night. I slept
hoping that I would never wake up.
|+ - ||Petrovics-Ofner on 1956 (mind)
I do feel sorry for Mr. Petrovics-Ofner because I am sure that he didn't mean
to smear the memory of 1956. Yes, he did say at the beginning of the piece
that called it "`the purest truth'--an outcry for freedom." And yes, most
likely, he was misunderstood. But when so many people misunderstand a piece
of writing it usually means that there is something wrong with the underlying
thoughts. And I still maintain that there is something wrong with Mr.
>My intent is to be "truly" fictional --my aim is to help you to see,
>to hear, above all else, to FEEL.
But you were not writing fiction. You were writing an essay. You tried to
analyze a historical event but somehow the analysis went very wrong--too many
people misunderstood your message.
>My experiences are just as valid as yours.
Of course, but it would be a mistake to make great pronouncements about the
the nature of the revolution on the basis of our personal experiences only.
Let's assume that the only thing I saw then was "our guys" in the dead of
night killing a Russian patrol in cold blood as he was patrolling the Muzeum
korut (that was true, by the way) and from that one case I would generalize.
Similarly, you can have your memories as a six-year-old child of 1956, but
what would these two occurrences tell us about the true nature of the
revolution? Such events were, by all other accounts, the exceptions to the
rule. Your essay's problem is that you attach to that one, most likely very
rare event, undue importance.
And there was one more thing among your hypothetical questions which startled
>After romanticism and mythology wane, will it be seen as a counter
Well, in my opinion, that can happen only if we have a reincarnation of
Stalin or his ilk in Russia who begins to build a mighty Soviet army and who
decides to invade Eastern Europe again. In this case, they can announce again
that October 1956 was a counterrevolution.
Here again, you made a mistake by even posing such question seriously because
that would indicate that you might find this interpretation one of the many
acceptable ones. Well, in my opinion, that is not an acceptable
interpretation even if 17% of Hungary's population of today thinks so.
>As for confusion, as a new WWW user, I admit I am confused. I do not
>protocal, especially among a host of historians.
Don't overestimate either the number or the importance of historians. There
are only two or three around this list and it is only Peter Hidas who can
actually speak to the issue as a historian. I was simply a participant and I
read a few books, both in English and Hungarian, about it. And, of course, I
am interested in its history. Every time I see an article dealing with those
events I read it and usually I learn something new. I am also planning to
offer my reminiscences to the 1956 Institute because I think they can help to
reconstruct the circumstances around *Oktober 23," an underground paper which
were were published in Budapest until mid-December 1956.
And one more thing, although you are new to the Internet, don't confuse the
Hungarian-language Forum with the English-language Hungary. They have very
different active participants although their readership may overlap.
>By the way, did you get my rather lengthy personal post on survival
>guilt. I am afraid it may
No, I didn't.
|+ - ||Kadar's popularity (mind)
Dini mentions in connection with Kadar's later image that
>obviously his puha dicatatorship and economic successes improved
>his image, but was he was for the most part-emigres excepted-forgiven.
>Or were most Hungarians just so apathetic-or tired-that
>the past no longer mattered.
For me--being a former refugee of 1956--this is a sore topic. I, for one,
can't possibly "forgive" Janos Kadar, and I have serious difficulties with
Gyula Horn's past as well. I find it somewhat shameful that the current prime
minister of Hungary can't take his rightful place in the commemoration of the
revolution because it would be tasteless for him to praise the revolution
against which he fought.
The reasons for Kadar's popularity are numerous. He, unlike his predecessors,
was a modest man whose lifestyle--with the exception of some hunting here and
there with Soviet leaders--was quite ordinary for an almighty first secretary
of the party. He was also around for a very long time and eventually became a
fixture in people's everyday life. Living standards were going up and up
until the 1980s and people were left alone as long as they were not outright
opposing the regime. And even those who did, didnt' have to fear for their
lives. And last but not least people's memory is extremely short. Europeans
in general, but even American historians, often comment on the fact that
Americans are so unhistorical in their attitudes toward the past. It is a
common place that Europeans, especially East Europeans, are much more
conscious of history. Yet, public opinion polls say something different. One
particularly stuck in my mind: in 1989 people were asked what period of the
Kadar-regime was best, 1957-1965, 1965-1970, 1970-1975, etc. etc. Which one
did you think got the highest marks: 1957-1965! The years of terror which
followed the revolution!
Kadar's popularity was high even at the time of his death. Hundred thousands
of people followed his coffin to the cemetery. I would say today his
popularity is even higher because those Kadar years, economically speaking at
least, are looking better and better. Yes, yes, today there is democracy but
I don't think that the existence of democracy compensate in people's mind for
the economic decline and the uncertainties of life.
|+ - ||To Eva Balogh Joe Pannon&Peter Hidas (mind)
Fianaley I am able to awnser the above people and others.
My reason for being bussy was our canadian referendum.One of our provinces
Quebec politician and the majori tie of frencs speeking people wanted to
separate from Canada.But at the same time they wanted to keep there canadian
citisenship,passport and the canadian dollar.As you probaley know the No
side hade a narrow victory.So I was bussy to keep this country together.
Anyway:I want to apologise to Eva Balogh.I had no intention to hurt your
I might used offending language in my excitement.I did not mention that my
brothers mother in law was killed in 56.I left Hungary after the soviet
Again I apologise Eva,and I am sorry.
Joe:what can I write to you what will not shock you?That was not my
intention anyway,I just informed you about my and my famileys situation.The
only other thing I can tell you once you are discriminated againts and
deported then this happens in a different aera you are very concerned and
the slightest rumor brings out action.Bloodey nose or not you continue
beleiving in decent human being even if you have to serach far and wide.
Peter:I was wrong supposing you are a student at the university.I have just
one question to you.You have written about the Avo guy.I was just wondering
how the peole found out he was Jewish?
To all others I wish we wouldn't look for how many "Jewish intellectuals"are
in a specific party.
This is all I have to say at this time.
|+ - ||F.A. Volgyesi (mind)
can anybody here provide me with any information
regarding formerly practising Hungarian hypnotherapist
Dr. Ferenc Andras Volgyesi (deceased, I think)?
I know that there exists a book by him
("Hypnosis of man and animals"), but I would
be grateful for any other info on, by or
concerning the man. Thank you!
Royal Inst. of Technology (RIOT), Stockholm, Sweden
"I believe I found the missing link between animal and civilized man.
It is us." -Konrad Lorenz
|+ - ||Dayton Conference Project (mind)
on this eve of tha Dayton Conference, the first letter asking for the
broadening of it's scope to cover all of Central Europe, has appeared in the
American press. It would be very helpful if in the next few days, a large
number of American newspapaers published such letters, which would focus
American attention on the overall problems of Central Europe. If you agree
with it's intent, please send letters of the attached nature, to your local
paper. If your local paper has an E-Mail address, please let me have it.
Best regards: Bela Liptak
Letters to the Editor
RE: Dayton Peace Conference
To The Editor,
Slobodan Milosevic, the cause of the Bosnian tragedy is unlikely to be it's
solution. The deal that he is after, is to get the blessing of the
international community to keep Kosovo and Vojvodina, in exchange for Bosnia.
But instead of satisfying the desires of a ruthless dictator, we should see
and act on the larger picture.
The collapse of the Soviet Empire was an earthquake, which damaged the
building of Central Europe. To make this building stable and self-supporting,
temporary reenforce ment of one floor (Bosnia for one year) is not enough. If
that is all that is done Western Europe will shortly be flooded with
despairing refugees and the whole region will be destabilized. Cracks are
already appearing on the floor of Kosovo, where Albanians are oppressed and
collapse is imminent on the floor of Vojvodina, where Serb refugees are
cleansing Croats and Hungarians.
Therefore, the scope of the Dayton Conference, should not be limited
to Bosnia and the participants should include all heads of state of Central
History has shown, that whenever a power vacuum evolved in the
Carpathian Basin, the Balkans became unstable. History has also shown that no
outsiders, not even the UN, the EC or NATO can permanently fill such a
vacuum, because they have no vital interests in the region. The only people
who have a vital interest in the stability of that region, are the people who
live there. Therefore, what is needed is the establishment of an economically
self-sufficient, politically stable, militarily neutral and geographically
large enough federation, which can fill the present power vacuum. Such a
Danubian Confederation can be crystallized around the nucleus of Austria,
Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, Slovakia and Ruthenia, and later can be expanded
to also include Poland, The Baltic States, Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria, Czech
Republic and even Italy.
The building of such a federation requires both the support of the
international community and an atmosphere of reconciliation. Armies can not
create an atmosphere of reconciliation, only justice can. Justice can only be
provided through the guarantee of autonomy to all ethnic groups. Just as the
autonomy of Tyrol has eliminated the tensions between Austria and Italy, the
granting of cultural autonomy to all indigenous minorities of the region will
do the same for Central Europe. Once ethnic tensions have dissipated, the
atmosphere for federation will be ripe.
President Wilson originally proposed such a federation. It would be
fitting if, 75 years later, it would be American leadership, which catalyzed
its formation. History does not solve problems accidentally, a better future
can only be achieved, if we have a vision of it today. It is such a vision
that is needed at the Dayton Conference.
|+ - ||FREE $$$ MAKING SOFTWARE !!! (mind)
The NEWEST and most INNOVATIVE SERVER on the Internet.
The FIRST & ONLY full Internet Access Provider that gives you the
opportunity to make BIG $$$ simply by being a subscriber.
YOU KNOW: How incredibly large servers like Prodigy and AOL have
become and how much bigger they continue to grow everyday.
JUST IMAGINE: If you had been given the opportunity to be
in on the ground floor of one of those servies. You would now
have tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of users signed
under you. Which simply means YOU would now be VERY, VERY WEALTHY!!!
And you get 5- HOURS OR 3-DAYS **FREE** TO TRY IT OUT at NO COST TO
It Has Everything that the BIG 3 have and MUCH MORE,
Plus full 28,800 Access. And The Best Graphics On The Net.
If you're going to use a provider, use one that MAKES YOU MONEY
And gives you 5-FREE ONLINE HOURS EVERY MONTH.
And if you're already in business on the net this is the easiest way to add
your income, by simply enclosing a free Demo Disc in every deliver you make to
Or Call 1-334-973-9721
For ABSOLUTELY FREE GRAPHICS & SOUND DEMO-DISC Send Your Mailing Address.
No Cost. No Obligation. No Bull.
Your address will not be used for any other purpose.
If you're going to fall.....fall reaching
|+ - ||HUNGARY Robertnek es a tobbinek : Gero/Ger vita (mind)
I have received the explanation :
>Sajnos a hosszu magyar maganhangzokat elhagyja az AOL, igy lett Gero"
>Erno"-bol Ger Ern. Elnezest: Liptak Bela
This is the origin of the misunderstanding.
Erno may have turned around in his grave.
|+ - ||Kadar - Forgiveness (mind)
>One thing that has always puzzled me, now that we are on the subject
>of 56, is why did most Hungarians forgive Kadar, the so called
I think this originates from a very clever propaganda that was used by
the communists since the early seventies. When gulash communism
started the communist felt the necessity of legitimizing Kadar and his
government. When the first discussions about what had happened in 56
were allowed, a few recurring themes were injected by the communist.
One acknowledged that Kadar was responsible for calling the Russians
back, however, it related that a Russian invasion was inevitable
anyway. Kadar by calling the Russians back, obtained favorable terms
from them for the country. That is the reason that we were allowed to
live a better life than the other Eastern Block countries. This story
tried to show him as a wise political figure.
Another story was that he is not a bad figure, he does everything for
the Hungarians, however, his hands were tied by the Russians and by the
other Hungarian party leaders who were more leftist than him.
All stories aimed the goal of making him an acceptable leader and
suggest that he is a kind of good uncle figure. The image was also
boasted by some who could speak and criticize the regime freely. For
example, the well known humorists who were allowed to somewhat
criticize everybody in their pieces, however, Kadar was always handled
gently. Some stated that their freedom of speech: was directly
authorized by Kadar despite the opposition of the other party leaders.
I know it sounds stupid, and these stories are full of lies but these
were part of the propaganda that were spread around especially among
the youth. I know, I was among them. Many who had no other reliable
sources believed or at least started to believe these stories and all
this resulted a favorable image to Kadar. You could see the reflection
of that at around his funeral.
|+ - ||Re: Kadar - Forgiveness (mind)
>Eva Balogh asked originally:
> >One thing that has always puzzled me, now that we are on the subject
> >of 56, is why did most Hungarians forgive Kadar, the so called
Gabor Morocz wrote:
> I think this originates from a very clever propaganda that was used by
> the communists since the early seventies. When gulash communism
> started the communist felt the necessity of legitimizing Kadar and his
> government. When the first discussions about what had happened in 56
> were allowed, a few recurring themes were injected by the communist.
Either I have amnesia or you do. My recollection is that up to 1982 (when
I left Hungary) there was no public discussion of 1956. It was declared
a counter-revolution, full stop. No further justification was deemed
necessary or discussion was entered into. What happened behind closed doors
is another matter but that does not qualify as 'propaganda that was used
by the communists'.
> One acknowledged that Kadar was responsible for calling the Russians
> back, however, it related that a Russian invasion was inevitable
This is truism, not propaganda. Russian invasion WAS inevitable.
> Kadar by calling the Russians back, obtained favorable terms
> from them for the country. That is the reason that we were allowed to
> live a better life than the other Eastern Block countries. This story
> tried to show him as a wise political figure.
If life in Hungary was better than in other Eastern-Bloc countries that
must imply some competence on part of the leadership.
> Another story was that he is not a bad figure, he does everything for
> the Hungarians, however, his hands were tied by the Russians and by the
> other Hungarian party leaders who were more leftist than him.
It is common knowledge how much the Soviets interfered in the affairs of
their satellite countries: another truism for you. Neither is it a secret
that there were factions within the MSzMP, some or them quite a lot more
orthodox than Kadar.
> All stories aimed the goal of making him an acceptable leader and
> suggest that he is a kind of good uncle figure. The image was also
> boasted by some who could speak and criticize the regime freely. For
> example, the well known humorists who were allowed to somewhat
> criticize everybody in their pieces, however, Kadar was always handled
> gently. Some stated that their freedom of speech: was directly
> authorized by Kadar despite the opposition of the other party leaders.
That is pretty plausible too.
> I know it sounds stupid, and these stories are full of lies but these
As the Hungarian saying goes, you are now falling off the other side of
the horse. There is no need to 'compensate' for perhaps having accepted
the party line some years ago by going overboard in repudiating everything
that happened then.
It has been pretty obvious to ordinary Hungarians that we had a better
deal in living standards and personal freedoms (the right to travel and
grumble) than other communist countries' citizens. While lower in the
standard of living than Czechoslovakia or East Germany, much freer from
government interference in personal lives. While short of the personal
freedoms of anarchic Poland, living standards were higher than there.
GIven the powers of the party chief, this was due to Kadar's policies.
It was a salutory lesson what Gustav Husak made of a similar hand of
cards after 1968.
> were part of the propaganda that were spread around especially among
> the youth. I know, I was among them.
No communist propaganda media spread anything like that around me, unless
you count the satirical radio programme 'Radiokabare' which does not quite
fit the bill.
> Many who had no other reliable
> sources believed or at least started to believe these stories and all
> this resulted a favorable image to Kadar.
I get mad every time I read this red herring of some people not having other
reliable sources of information. Everybody I knew knew of Radio Free Europe
and owned a radio receiver that was suitable to listen to it. People had
been travelling to West as well as East since the early 1960s and were not
separated from the rest of the populace upon return. There were plenty of
alternative sources of information even without reading samizdat.
This was the biggest propaganda vehicle for the Kadar regime: people new
that we WERE better off than our fellow prisoners of the Soviet satellites.
The choice was like that: if someone did not agree with the crushing of
the 1956 uprising could either maintain the rage over Kadar's role up to 1959
and not acknowledge his later policies, or separate the two faces of the man
and grudgingly acknowledge that Mr Hyde turned Dr Jekyll.
Of course, there were people who genuinely believed that Kadar played a
positive role all the way from 1956: it should not come as a surprise that the
public opinion was divided.
|+ - ||Re: Request for copy of Honor the Memory (mind)
Dear Professor Liptak,
My wife and I would be honored to recieve the full text of your
memoirs of the revolution. We missed the first six segments.
Please send it to
If for some reason it does not transfer, please let us know and
we can make other arrangements. I would be glad to pay any
necessary costs that you may incur.
Out telephone is 804-930-3815 Fax 804-930-0811
I have made previous requests, but am unsure if you have
received them. If you have, ignore the duplicates.
Thank you for a lesson in history and humanity. My only
previous knowledge of your experience was US based newscasts I
heard as a fourteen year-old.ne.
|+ - ||Re: Kadar - Forgiveness (mind)
Russian invasion WAS inevitable.
In history few things are "inevitable. Moscow had several options in
October 1956. On October 30, in fact, they decided to recognize the Nagy
government. A major statement was issued the following day. China followed
suit. Decision to invade had been taken probably on the following day.
Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
|+ - ||Re: Kadar - Forgiveness (mind)
>George Antony wrote:
>> Russian invasion WAS inevitable [in 1956].
Peter Hidas wrote:
> In history few things are "inevitable. Moscow had several options in
> October 1956. On October 30, in fact, they decided to recognize the Nagy
> government. A major statement was issued the following day. China followed
> suit. Decision to invade had been taken probably on the following day.
> Decision reversed.
Non sequitur. Just because the hawks in the Soviet leadership were slow
to wake up and there was some temporary confusion in the reaction, with
hindsight it is clear that the invasion WAS inevitable.
The proof to that is Czechoslovakia in 1968: even in a situation where
international tension was much lower, with no other international crisis to
distract the Western powers, in a country where the "socialist"
system was much less threatened and where there was no bloodshed, the
Soviet Union has invaded. The only thing that made invasion in Cz more
likely than in Hungary was the former's more strategic geographical position,
all the other factors made invasion less likely. Sure, there was some initial
hesitation, more than in 1956, but the outcome was the same.
And there was Poland, in 1981. It was obvious that the countries of the
Warsaw Pact were being prepared for an invasion (the same propaganda campaign
was being waged as the one preceding the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia),
and only the fact that Jaruzelsky managed on his own prevented it.
QED: up to the early 1980s, the Soviet Union was not ready to entertain
any other option than pulling wayward satellites firmly back into the fold,
even though it had other options. With a track record like that, I can only
conclude that the invasion in Hungary was inevitable.
|+ - ||Testverek (mind)
Isn't that a beautiful word. One of the most beautiful words in the
world, I think. Testver.
Sort of like the word, "Yes," in English. Yes, my mountain flower.
Ponder a little how love Then fled,
Paced cragged peaks,
Hid amid floes of stars afar their birth...
Loves form then fled the robs of Earth.
....For my dear Hungarian friends, as I now understand them in
You see, the Then is always alive. A menace in our nature that shows
itself in our midst.
Love Then fled...for me, as I am able best to reconstruct not only the
roots, but also the soil
from which family tree springs, during as far back as 1909.
Love fled for many during the Holocaust, and now, by the pain I have
expressed courageously and naked in this Forum, I see that for many
especially young adults back then, the marker to their life was 1956.
But we were victims then, and can not today wear the victim's band,
any longer. Hungary can not afford to loose you for your pain. She
hurts far more then you,
at a time when justice was little served, political power could easily
into economic gain for the few, and the yoke fell heavier on the
. Indeed, some have already compared 1995 to Rakosi's era,
a tin pan reality wherein my love of Rakosi was bought
by a bland square of baker's chocolate at Christmas. Couldn't those
pictures on walls,
buildings, oils, smile, oh, but so good. And Stalin's benevolence
showered upon me
from schoolroom walls, from plackards, poles --everywhere the smiling
warm face followed me. For a long time, I could never understand
why his statue had to have been pulled down. And the day after, my
and I played hide and seek in Stalin's empty boots.
Hungary, the motherland, waits for you, as Zima Junction awaited
Go. You can return to me. Now go.
You can return. Those infirmed by Diaspora's hurt on Kimmerean distant
Hungary needs you. Return. I was unable to find love in my life until
My life was a mess. I could not sink roots, lips sewn shut, unable to
in Kimmeria. I now have a wife, a son. Live poorly, true, frugally,
but also in great wealth of a company of rarified intellectuals
that can be found only in pockets in the States. My cobbler, on
nails shoes to the music of Brahms. The nursery is one of the best in
--studied by many nations, and already described by American
as the "ideal." If one can adjust to a twenty cent meal, it is very
easy to be
During my life in Hungary, I have become convinced the Hungarians are
of Andersonian grotesque --grotesque only as the crabapple is gnarled.
Beauty and flavor abundant in the ripening fruit. But tragically
flawed as well
--the sweetness at heart, twisted off center. I think I saw this in
Forum's reactions to my essay. It is as though, driven by our romatic
from the myriads of truths in life, our yowl and our rohog, alcohol,
compassion, grace, suicide and hope, we tend to cling to one,
and largely one truth, or only a few related truths, and do so tight
Loosing the latitude of choice, as Anderson says, "We become slaves
to our own truth. It rules over us."
Don't clutch your pain, testver. You are valued and valuable.
>From across heaving borders and across heaving seas, you belong.
Let go, and return. Return to the land of your soul. Revive our
The lofty, the rich, the skilled, the lonely, the crippled, the old,
the young, you, our sustenance..Return... Hungary needs the caring
The sustenance of body and blood. At-one-ment.
--- MOMS 3.0
|+ - ||Re: Suicide (mind)
W> C> K.Siddall ) wrote:
W> C> : I understand that Hungary has the highest
W> C> suicide rate in the world.
W> C> : Could somebody briefly explain why this
W> C> is the case?
W> is not really adequate. But I will point
W> to some leads, if I can.
W> Genetics is probably a key factor, as it is
W> in most Major Affective
W> Disorders. Our cousins the Finns
W> are high in this regard also.
W> The Learned Helplessness Model is also useful.
W> From Rakosi's tin-pan
W> reality, to Kadar's velvet prison, the Hungarian
W> society was
W> systematically disempowered. The man adept
W> to be a violinist was
W> as a dental technician, let us say. Or the
W> math whiz, may
W> have ended up as an administrator, rather
W> than being allowed to flower
W> as a teacher.
W> Culturally, a people who are more akin to
W> the Italians and "southern"
W> Europeans, than to the German mentality that
W> is Prussian, have to
W> behave as Prussians even in everyday life.
W> This is particularly true
W> schooling and the work place. I believe such
W> a Prussian "masque" adds
W> enormous stress
W> to daily life. This draws on the Object Relations
W> Model of the "false
W> Just some tips. If I can help more specifically,
W> let me know.
W> -------------------- End of quoted message
W> --- MOMS 3.0
-------------------- End of quoted message --------------------
--- MOMS 3.0
|+ - ||Christian Rescuers of Hun (mind)
To Eva Balogh,
I accept your critique concluding that I had no intention to besmirch
As you say, many people misunderstood my intent, especially editors
who will not let me apologize to readership. I had no intent to have a
benign, main idea of the title Brown Shoes, reflect either a bombast
of "Setting the Record Straight," or of "Demystifying The Revolution."
One experience, out of a short period of a single day, hardly makes
I must, however, disagree that the grendarme did no killing.
Szalasi's Forced March to Hegyeshalom was purely Hungarian in making.
I could vividly describe to you the details of what went on, but this
is not the place, nor time. It turns my stomach far more than what I
witnessed in 1956.
My error was in an enthusiasm for Braham's clarification of a part of
my family's experiences, yearning for the
same for my young life in 1956. Mitchner, if one talks with young
readers, is unfortunately seen as the first and too often, final
"historical" word on 1956. This sells all of us short.
I am perhaps blessed in my relative peace with the Holocaust, as my
parents, Christian Rescuers, brought light from our Millenial
darkness. To me, the Holocaust is Millenial in proportion. Nothing
like that ever happened before in Hungary, where 600,000 of our kin
were systematically lost in six short months. I am working with
Hungarian Christian Rescuers and their offspring because they, too,
see a unique role for themselves in Hungarian society as it opens. We
can all be proud that they provide hope for our children, that, yes,
many Hungarians risked all to save innocent lives.
--- MOMS 3.0