> Felado :  [United States]
> : In short, I'd much rather have faceless unelected bureaucrats in
> : Brussels deciding certain matters than the duly elected representatives
> : of the people, especially if they are like Milosevic or Meciar.
> Ahem.
Well, I admit it was intended to be provocative... As a matter of fact,
those "faceless unelected bureaucrats" in Brussels are for the most
part no more faceless than their unelected counterparts like permanent
undersecretaries and other boffins in England, and a large number of them
(the whole European Parliament) actually gets elected in regular elections.

> Take what's happening in Hungary these days as an example.  By and
> large, the Hungarian public is politically uneducated.  Note that I am
> not talking about the English-speaking, black turtleneck-wearing,
> Jean-Paul Sartre-reading, chain-smoking intellectual clientele of
> Budapest's better cafes;  I am talking about Jozsi bacsi and Juliska neni
> in Mateszalka (no offense intended to those readers of this group who
> have a sentimental attachment to Mateszalka).  So, since the public is
> politically uneducated, it elects leaders like Gyula Horn.
I think your faith in the democratic process (a faith I actually share) must
be seriously undermined by your low opinion of the electorate. I see no reason
to believe that Horn was elected because the Hungarian public was/is
uneducated. To be sure, few people in what you describe as the black
turtleneck crowd actually voted for Horn -- such people tend to support SZDSZ
or Fidesz (and so would I, except Fidesz made some seriously bad moves
recently and I no longer feel like supporting them) but the turtleneck vote
doesn't amount to that much. Surely nobody talked about the lack of political
sophistication displayed by Jo1zsi ba1csi and Juli ne1ni when Antall was
elected (and he didn't get in by the turtleneck vote either).

> Hats off to the likes of Margaret Thatcher for not relinquishing control in
> important matters to faceless, unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.  If I
> were a British citizen at the time when Britain becomes fully integrated
> into some pan-European political system with the aforementioned bureaucrats
> in Brussels running the show, I might find myself beginning to see China as
> a viable alternative.  At least the women there are better looking.
All right, so a bit of provocative phrasing is not beneath you. I'll let it
pass, leaving the defense of English roses to the more poetically inclined.
Like E1va Balogh, I admire Margaret Thatcher for many things, but her stance
vis-a-vis the EU is not one of them. The perfect counterpart seems to be Joe
Szalai, who apparently adores the nationalistic bit, but is likely to hate
everything else Thatcher stands for.

As a matter of fact, Horn is strongly pro-EU, and so is the moderate right
(Fidesz, KDNP, and what is now MDNP). The only opposition comes from the
far left (Munka1spa1rt) and the far right. What remains of MDF, the "kuruc"
wing, is rather hostile to Western Europe and the US, but at least they are
aware there is no alternative to pursuing a policy of European integration.
Csurka and company are not bothered by the reality, they prefer to live in a
dream world (their dream, others' nightmare) where National Sovereignity
solves all the problems. These are the people who always want to teach the
IMF a lesson, who demand that the Allied Powers reconsider WWII, and so on.

Andra1s Kornai

How many more people must be slaughtered on the altar of inane
multiculturism before the zealous proponents of this silliness will see
that their robot like worship is misguided.
The "Stepford Wives" of multiculturism nod sagely at each other and pat
each other on the back. Meanwhile, the world has shown over and over again
that language is the strongest bond between people or can be the biggest
barrier.Culture being the second.
The foolish rantings of the zombie followers of multiculturism confuse
themselves by not understanding the difference between multiethnic and
multiculture societies.
They love to spout feel good, sound good little bits of puke like,
"Diversity is our strength". Meanwhile, they ignore the fact that people
are dying all over the planet whenever cultures are forced to live
together. Diversity is strength only in a limited biological sense.
Multiethnic societies, on the other hand, grow strong by learning from and
taking from each other. They manage to assimilate and create a new culture
that is unique.
God save us from the stupid little islands of cultures that would make the
USA a killing field like Bosnia. Can you imagine a USA made up of hundreds
of cultures, importing their unique brand of hatreds and ethnic cleansings
and Jihads?
Can you imagine no national borders, a la John Lennon? Can you imagine
atrocities on a grander scale than that brought about by the concomittant
anarchy?
What a great idea! Let's try to recreate Somalia and Haiti and Bosnia in
the US.
Phhhhtttt.....Get real, please.
The USA has a culture of its own. It is based on laws grounded in
tolerance for others and respect for individual rights.  I kind of like
that kind of "monoculture".

To the Participant:I am not aware how many of you are following the "Forum".
I know that Eva Balogh is and try to defend against there mostly antisemite
writing.
I would have one suggestion;please do not get into discussions with those
"people".
They do not deserve it and with your repy,just give them an other forum for
there hatred.Let them do it,anyone who has a little brain can understand
what they trying to do.(Sorry I did not mean Eva).
I realise that it is sometimes painfull to be quiet,but it would srve as a
better cause,than to give them chances to get there distorted views.
As far as I am concerned I am open to discussion on this matter and others.
Probaly you have not see my name latly,but that does not mean I don't follow
your discussion.Sometimes I find it a bit too scholarly,so I don't get involved
.
Andy Kozma.

>Felado :  [United States]
>Temakor: Re: Sony, Philips ( 66 sor )
>Idopont: Tue Apr  9 04:07:25 EDT 1996 HUNGARY #634
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ->Felado :
 [United States]
>Temakor: Re: Sony, Philips ( 66 sor )
>Idopont: Tue Apr  9 04:07:25 EDT 1996 HUNGARY #634
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>First, the economic matters.
>> Felado :  [United States]
>> As for the Philips purchase, only time will tell.  Let's hope they didn't
>> just buy the competition in order to eliminate it.
>Ferenc, where do you stand on the matter of Tungsram? Clearly, GE bought it
>to eliminate the competition, and they did. Yet they ended up investing
>large amounts of money, and turned Tungsram into one of their best plants.
>Hungary now has a highly competitive plant in place of one slowly dying, a
>plant that provides jobs (for fewer people, to be sure, but it's better to
>have some jobs than none), hard currency earnings, a local tax base etc.
>Take Ikarus, another crown jewel of pre-89 Hungarian industry, it is still
>slowly dying (actually, its dying at an accelerating rate). What would you
>rather have, a globally competitive bus company investing in it or not? If
>Philips says they will turn Euroton into one of their three main European
>production sites, what's so terrible about that?

Andra's,

Obviously, I didn't express myself clearly enough.  (I sensed that when I
sent in my post, but was too lazy/busy to revise the text.)  What I meant
to say was:  Let's hope this will not be one of those cases where the foreign
company buys out a Hungarian competitor only to close it down and thereby
acquire its market.  Of course such action makes sense from a purely economic
standpoint (viewed from the acquirer's side), but is not beneficial for
Hungary (increased unemployment, negative impact on the trade balance, etc.)

Sony's investment, on the other hand, seems unequivocally beneficial.  By
building a new manufacturing plant, it will result in an increase of jobs --
in construction as well as manufacturing -- and may also add to the net
volume of exports.  Seems like the best kind of foreign investment.
That is all I meant.

Regards,

Ferenc

As for Tungsram, I am not sure it was all that good a deal.  The best
solution
would have been for a non-competitor to buy it and develop it to its full
potential,
somewhere where it was before nationalization.  It could have continued to be

an independent competitor, with its own research and development contingent.
(It had one of the best research facilities in Hungary before the war, and
even
after, when it employed such scientists as Zoltan Bay, who was the first to
bounce radio signals off the Moon in, I think, 1946.)  It may now be one of
GE's
best manufacturing plans, but no more than that.  According to my private
information, no research of any significance is done there now.  There are
signs
pointing to the same practices in the pharmaceutical industry as well.

Yes, I understand, there was no local capital available to keep some
companies
independent, and they had to be sold to the foreign competition.  But the
outcome
is, in many cases, far from ideal.

The subject of a lack of scientific research job opportunities in Hungary as
an
indirect consequence of the elimination of R&D shops, and the resulting brain
drain could be the subject of a different discussion.

>
>First, the economic matters.
>> Felado :  [United States]
>> As for the Philips purchase, only time will tell.  Let's hope they didn't
>> just buy the competition in order to eliminate it.
>Ferenc, where do you stand on the matter of Tungsram? Clearly, GE bought it
>to eliminate the competition, and they did. Yet they ended up investing
>large amounts of money, and turned Tungsram into one of their best plants.
>Hungary now has a highly competitive plant in place of one slowly dying, a
>plant that provides jobs (for fewer people, to be sure, but it's better to
>have some jobs than none), hard currency earnings, a local tax base etc.
>Take Ikarus, another crown jewel of pre-89 Hungarian industry, it is still
>slowly dying (actually, its dying at an accelerating rate). What would you
>rather have, a globally competitive bus company investing in it or not? If
>Philips says they will turn Euroton into one of their three main European
>production sites, what's so terrible about that?

Andra's,

Obviously, I didn't express myself clearly enough.  (I sensed that when I
sent in my post, but was too lazy/busy to revise the text.)  What I meant
to say was:  Let's hope this will not be one of those cases where the foreign
company buys out a Hungarian competitor only to close it down and thereby
acquire its market.  Of course such action makes sense from a purely economic
standpoint (viewed from the acquirer's side), but is not beneficial for
Hungary (increased unemployment, negative impact on the trade balance, etc.)

Sony's investment, on the other hand, seems unequivocally beneficial.  By
building a new manufacturing plant, it will result in an increase of jobs --
in construction as well as manufacturing -- and may also add to the net
volume of exports.  Seems like the best kind of foreign investment.
That was all I meant.

Regards,

Ferenc

As for Tungsram, I am not sure it was all that good a deal.  The best
solution
would have been for a non-competitor to buy it and develop it to its full
potential,
somewhere where it was before nationalization.  It could have continued to be

an independent competitor, with its own research and development contingent.
(It had one of the best research facilities in Hungary before the war, and
even
after, when it employed such scientists as Zoltan Bay, who was the first to
bounce radio signals off the Moon in, I think, 1946.)  It may now be one of
GE's
best manufacturing plans, but no more than that.  According to my private
information, no research of any significance is done there now.  There are
signs
pointing to the same practices in the pharmaceutical industry as well.

Yes, I understand, there was no local capital available to keep some
companies
independent, and they had to be sold to the foreign competition.  But the
outcome
is, in many cases, far from ideal.

The subject of a lack of scientific research job opportunities in Hungary as
an
indirect consequence of the elimination of R&D shops, and the resulting brain
drain could be the subject of a different discussion.

Joe Szalai, first quoting me:

>>You, as a Canadian, should know better. The French-Canadians are not
>>a minority in Quebec.
>
>Thank you for this.  Of course the francophones are a majority in Quebec!
>They've always been the majority there!  However, and this may come as a
>surprise to you, they're an ever decreasing minority in Canada.

        Few things surprise me and this fact doesn't either. I just happened
to look up birthrates, fertility rates, and death rates worldwide for a
project and therefore I know the Canadian statistics quite well. Canadian
fertility rate (overall) is actually lower than the Hungarian (1.8).
Canada's 1.7. Birth rate per 1,000 inhabitants is slightly higher (Hungary:
12; Canada: 13). In any case, French Canadians constituted (1991 figures)
27% as opposed to 28.7% in 1985. But, I bet that the shrinking
French-Canadian percentage of the Canadian whole does come from lower
birthrates. Rather, the English-speaking population is growing because of
immigration. I bet that few immigrants want to settle in Quebec and
eventually belong to a French-speaking minority in the sea of
English-speaking North America. I wouldn't and I doubt that too many
immigrants, be they of European or non-European stock, would. Not if they
had any sense.

>The Quebecois are trampling on the
>rights of the anglophones and the allophones.  At the same time, they see
>the majority anglophone population in Canada as a linguistic and cultural
>threat to them.

        Well, there are some natural phenomena in this world. Assimilation
of a minority to the majority is one of these phenomena. If a trend can be
reversed only by trampling on other people's rights, I am afraid, there is
something wrong with the whole idea.

>In every province except Quebec it is ASSUMED that immigrants' children will
>go to English language schools.  In fact there is often no choice as there
>is no French language school in most communities.  When we arrived in
>Ontario from Hungary we had no choice.  But we never felt that something was
>taken away from us.  Quebec francophones are trying to do what the other
>provinces have always been doing.

        This is, to my mind, an absolutely ridiculous point of view. Why
should any community, let's say, in Saskatchewan, have a slew of
French-language schools. For whom? The nonexistent French Canadians? But I
bet, that if some strange quirk of fate 25,000 French Canadians decided to
settle in one of the cities of Saskatchewan, there would be French schools
established if there was such a demand. In mixed towns, like Ottawa, for
example, there were even thirty years ago plenty of opportunities to send
your child to a French school. Or to a French university (Universite
d'Ottawa), for that matter.

>You acquiesce too easily to something [monoculture] that may yet lead to
fascism with a
>human face.

        I am afraid you and I use the word "monoculture" very differently.
My monoculture has absolutely nothing to do with fascism.

>I agree, there has been much
>bloodshed throughout history.  Human against human.  Sounds like monoculture
>problems to me.

        Oh, yes. Like the German-French hatred for centuries. Or the
French-English hatred also for centuries. Are these monocultures?

ESB:
>>The opposite of your monoculture is often nothing else but hatred of the
>>"other."

>Oh please!  Have a look at the environmental damage that monoculture farming
>has created. Now, obviously, I can't say that what has happened to the
>environment will also happen to us.

        Again, I am somewhat buffled at your use of the word "monoculture."
What on earth does it have to do with farming or the environment?

>But socially, I prefer a community of
>communities as opposed to your monoculture proto-fascist, legally superior
>society.  And you call me utopian?

        No, I wouldn't call you utopian. I would call you confused.

JSz:

>I only support a peoples right to self determination.

        Self-determination! What a worn-out phrase. It wasn't even new at
the time Woodrow Wilson became president of the United States. As a concept,
if I recall properly, it had something to do with the American civil war.
Then this concept was warmed up by Woodrow Wilson and applied to the
territorial settlement after World War I. And what I mess!

        As far as your views on this topic is concerned they bear a
suspicious resemblance to the ideas of some of those guys on the Forum. If
you decided to join them for a friendly little chat on nationalism and
self-determination and if they found out about your other political ideas
they would eat you "sz"ro:sto:l-bo"ro:sto:l," as we say it in the Hungarian
version of Red Little Riding Hood, especially when we get to the point of
the encounter of grandmother and the wolf.

        Eva Balogh

The Catholic Church lost its political influence in Quebec decades ago. This
 fact is having a demographic impact. French-Canadian families have very few
 children. Many young couples do not get married. The situation is similar to
 that of Hungary.

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

I just reread my posting and I found an error:

"But, I bet that the shrinking French-Canadian percentage of the Canadian
whole does come from lower birthrates."

        I said. Instead it should read:

"But, I bet that the shrinking French-Canadian percentage of the Canadian
whole does NOT come from lower birthrates."

        Meanwhile, I just read Peter Hidas's posting on the low French
Canadian birthrate as opposed to the incredibly high birthrates as late as
the 1960s. However, I still maintain that the shrinking French-Canadian
population share is not due to lower birthrates than those of the non-French
population, but that the rapidly smaller percentage of the whole is largely
due to immigration to non-French parts of Canada.

        Eva Balogh

" 'valamiben' nem ismerek trefat" simply and strictly means something I take
very seriously, that is something that I don't joke with.  Therefore, the best
translation, in my opinion, is that somebody has already posted: I don't joke
about humour. Or perhaps: I don't mess with humour.

Am I about right?

Minden jot,

Zoltan Manyoki

How apropos of our discussion! At this very moment I heard on National
Public Radio that there is a severe shortage of kosher foods in Quebec this
year. It turned out that some of the imported kosher foods didn't have
French labels. Therefore, they couldn't be distributed to stores.
        Eva Balogh

Greetings from Boston. I would like to know if anyone on this group can
suggest resources, web pages or books with information about native,
"pagan", pre-Christian religions of Hungary.
--
Michael Strmiska  >
1302 Commonwealth  Ave. #32
Boston MA 02134 USA
(617) 232-2459

As usual, the two "reactionaries"--at least according to Joe Szalai--Andras
Kornai and Eva Balogh agree on practically everything. Andras's analysis of
the political scene in Hungary is really excellent. It is not the
intellectuals who voted in Horn and his socialist party--in fact, if
anything the opposite. The MSZP voters tended to be older and less educated.

>As a matter of fact, Horn is strongly pro-EU, and so is the moderate right
>(Fidesz, KDNP, and what is now MDNP). The only opposition comes from the
>far left (Munka1spa1rt) and the far right.

        Here I would like to get a little clarification from Andras. Does he
include the smallholders in the "far right," because I think that Torgyan
and his party are also against the European Union.

        Eva Balogh

At 12:05 PM 4/10/96, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>I just reread my posting and I found an error:
>
>"But, I bet that the shrinking French-Canadian percentage of the Canadian
>whole does come from lower birthrates."
>
>        I said. Instead it should read:
>
>"But, I bet that the shrinking French-Canadian percentage of the Canadian
>whole does NOT come from lower birthrates."
>
>        Meanwhile, I just read Peter Hidas's posting on the low French
>Canadian birthrate as opposed to the incredibly high birthrates as late as
>the 1960s. However, I still maintain that the shrinking French-Canadian
>population share is not due to lower birthrates than those of the non-French
>population, but that the rapidly smaller percentage of the whole is largely
>due to immigration to non-French parts of Canada.
>
>        Eva Balogh

French-Canadians do not leave Quebec. Anglophones and  Allophones
(Hungarians, Greeks, etc) are leaving the province by the hundreds of
thousands. Their schools shrank to less than half they had been in the
1960s. Emigration intensified since last October (referendum). The economy
is in decline. Nationalism tainted with racism has its price.

Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

At 12:01 PM 4/10/96, malestrm wrote:
>Greetings from Boston. I would like to know if anyone on this group can
>suggest resources, web pages or books with information about native,
>"pagan", pre-Christian religions of Hungary.
>--
>Michael Strmiska  >
>1302 Commonwealth  Ave. #32
>Boston MA 02134 USA
>(617) 232-2459

Try the following works:

=46odor, Istv=E1n. In Search of a New Homeland; The Prehistory of the Hungar=
ian
People and the Conquest. Budapest: Corvina, 1975.

Macartney, C. A.  The Medieval Hungarian Historians  A Critical and
Analytical. Cambridge, Eng. : University Press, 1953.


Macartney, C. A.  The Magyars in the Ninth Century.  Cambridge, U.K.: The
University Press, 1930.

Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

Michael Strmiska asks about native, pagan, pre-Christian religions of
Hungary.  I don't know about Web pages, but there are lots of books.  If
Michael reads magyar, a neat, newly-published scholaraly study called *A
magyarsag tudomany kezikonyve* [Handbook of Hungarian Studies] has a sec-
tion entitled "Hitvilag" [Religion], in which the pre-Christian religion of
the founding Hungarians is discussed.
        As is the case with all our Finno-Ugrian relatives, this religion was
essentially what is called shamanism, involving spiritual specialists called
shamans, who interceded with the spirit world through trances and the like.
This form of religion is still practiced among many Finno-Ugrian peoples
living in Siberia, as for example, the Khanty-Mansi, the Cheremiss, the Ud-
murt, etc.  An exhibition at the Ethographical Museum in Budapest last year
had marvelous photos of "pagan" ceremonies among the contemporary Udmurt
and Cheremiss.
        *Natural History Magazine* had an article not too long ago about
shamanism among some Siberian group, with wonderful photos.  This should
give a pretty good picture of what the religious of the original Hungarians
was like.

Udv.,
Be'la

At 12:45 PM 4/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
>The Catholic Church lost its political influence in Quebec decades ago. This
> fact is having a demographic impact. French-Canadian families have very few
> children. Many young couples do not get married. The situation is similar to
> that of Hungary.
>
>Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
>
Peter:  I have to strongly disagree with your statement as above.  The
demography of Quebec has absolutely no relation to the the lack of political
control by the Catholic Church...it only shows that Quebecois are defying
*some* of the church's laws; specifically to do with marriages and birth
control.  The rest, meaning political control and influence on the
provincial government at large; remain frightfully  intact; indeed the
Catholic Church has more power than most would want to even acknowledge.

Regards,
Aniko Dunford

I wrote:

>Other than crude sexist jokes and jokes with sexual innuendoes, Hungarians
>find few things funny.

A couple of writers have taken exception to my comment above.  Considering
that the subject heading was "Hungarian Humour" it is rather ironic that
these same readers did not catch my joke.  Perhaps it was too subtle for
some.  Do I have to explain the punch line?  My original post said that I
didn't get the stretch marks around my mouth from laughing.  Now, what on
earth could that mean?  Think, Aniko, think!  Do you get it now?  That's better
!

Joe Szalai

At 11:06 AM 4/10/96 -0400, Andy Kozma wrote:

>I realise that it is sometimes painfull to be quiet,but it would srve as a
>better cause,than to give them chances to get there distorted views.

Andy,

I respect your opinion but I have to disagree with it.  Anti-semites,
homophobes, racists, misogynists, and all who hate other people MUST be
challenged.  They can never be allowed to think that they've won the debate.
They must hear, over and over again, that they are wrong.  Silence is not
the answer.

Joe Szalai

At 11:28 PM 4/9/96 -0400, Martha Bihari wrote:

>On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
>> surprise to you, they're an ever decreasing (francophone) minority in
>Canada.
>
>With an overwhelming Catholic population I find that hard to believe,
>unless their Asian counterparts are multiplying like rabbits.

I'm glad to see that you're capable of denigrating two groups of people in
one sentence.  So, which do you fear most?  The Quebec papists or the yellow
hordes?

Joe Szalai

At 02:13 PM 4/10/96 -0700, you wrote:
>How apropos of our discussion! At this very moment I heard on National
>Public Radio that there is a severe shortage of kosher foods in Quebec this
>year. It turned out that some of the imported kosher foods didn't have
>French labels. Therefore, they couldn't be distributed to stores.
>        Eva Balogh
Hi Eva:

Your posting just served to erase an entire article, which I copied from the
newspaper for you all.  Thanks for being on the ball just the same.  In
addition to your posting Eva: Office de la langue francaise, (Quebec's
language watchdog)  received 10 complaints regarding kosher products with
English only labels.. which lead to the yanking of the products by
storeowners - at a time when, the Parti Quebecois is seemingly attempting a
reconciliation with ethnic groups. (language watchdog officials were not
available for comment).  In that light a thought... don't you (and the rest
of you readers) find it a little odd, that while Canada as a whole is a
bilingual country, (and we're all still paying for that luxury, handsomely
by the way) Quebec can, does, and has, enjoyed the luxury of being a
Uniligual French Province?...  Any wonder why for example British Columbia
would have some objection to this?
(or for that matter - any of the other provinces of Canada).
Regards,
Aniko Dunford

>>I realise that it is sometimes painfull to be quiet,but it would srve as a
>>better cause,than to give them chances to get there distorted views.
>
>Andy,
>
>I respect your opinion but I have to disagree with it.  Anti-semites,
>homophobes, racists, misogynists, and all who hate other people MUST be
>challenged.  They can never be allowed to think that they've won the debate.
>They must hear, over and over again, that they are wrong.  Silence is not
>the answer.
>
>Joe Szalai

Go ahead, Sir Lancelot! Be a crusader and defend the right of the poors and
weaks. I would like to see your Don Quiote fight against the windmills!

Janos

A footnote to the Hidas-Balogh exchange:

ESB:

>>        Meanwhile, I just read Peter Hidas's posting on the low French
>>Canadian birthrate as opposed to the incredibly high birthrates as late as
>>the 1960s. However, I still maintain that the shrinking French-Canadian
>>population share is not due to lower birthrates than those of the non-French
>>population, but that the rapidly smaller percentage of the whole is largely
>>due to immigration to non-French parts of Canada.

PIH:

>French-Canadians do not leave Quebec.


        Maybe I wasn't quite clear. What I meant was that immigration into
Canada is largely going to non-French parts of the country and therefore it
is largely responsible for the shrinking size of French-Canadians in the
population of Canada as a whole.

        Otherwise, yes, I agree:

>The economy
>is in decline. Nationalism tainted with racism has its price.

        Eva Balogh

At 07:12 PM 4/10/96 -0400, Peter I. Hidas wrote:

>French-Canadians do not leave Quebec. Anglophones and  Allophones
>(Hungarians, Greeks, etc) are leaving the province by the hundreds of
>thousands. Their schools shrank to less than half they had been in the
>1960s. Emigration intensified since last October (referendum). The economy
>is in decline. Nationalism tainted with racism has its price.

Exactly!  And so it should!

Unfortunately, when I say that I believe that people have a right to
self-determination it's interpreted, erroneously, as support for nationalism
and, or, racism.

Joe Szalai

At 10:23 AM 4/10/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        Self-determination! What a worn-out phrase. It wasn't even new at
>the time Woodrow Wilson became president of the United States.

So, should I look for a more modern, more contemporary, more colour
coordinated idea?  Who would have thought that the value of an idea is
determined by its age?  And by an historian yet!  Will ideas like 'peace'
become worn-out someday?

>        As far as your views on this topic is concerned they bear a
>suspicious resemblance to the ideas of some of those guys on the Forum.

If you're trying to provoke me, you won't succeed.

>If you decided to join them for a friendly little chat on nationalism and
>self-determination and if they found out about your other political ideas
>they would eat you "sz"ro:sto:l-bo"ro:sto:l," as we say it in the Hungarian
>version of Red Little Riding Hood, especially when we get to the point of
>the encounter of grandmother and the wolf.

If they "found out" about my other political ideas and they ate me, 'skin,
hair and all', they'd get an awful case of indigestion.  Wouldn't they?
Then again, maybe I should brush up on my Hungarian and treat those guys to
a little appetizer.

Joe Szalai

Dear Friends,

(Quickly, before it is the 11th !!!)

Today is the 149th birth anniversary of Joseph Pulitzer, born in Mako, Hungary.
The noted newspaperman settled in America.  I have clipped some
information for those of you, who are interested.  (Sorry for any possible
duplications, they came from two different sources.)

Martha

Pulitzer, Joseph  {pul'-it-sur}
A powerful editor and publisher in St. Louis, Mo., and in New York City, Joseph
Pulitzer, b. Mako, Hungary, Apr. 10, 1847, d. Oct. 29, 1911, helped establish
the foundations for the modern American newspaper. At his death he left funds
to establish a school of journalism at Columbia University (opened in 1912)
and to endow the Pulitzer Prizes for achievements in American journalism and
letters, and later in music.
Pulitzer received a classical education in Budapest, Hungary. He emigrated to
the United States when he was 17 years of age and served briefly in the Union
Army during the Civil War. He then went to St. Louis, where he started (1868)
his journalistic career with the Westliche Post, a German-language newspaper.
Pulitzer soon acquired a reputation that helped him win a seat in the Missouri
legislature in 1869. He also became active in national politics, first with
the Liberal Republican movement and then with the Democratic party.
Following the Civil War, rapid growth in population, communications technology,
industrialization, and advertising opened the way for mass circulation of
newspapers. Recognizing the opportunity, Pulitzer bought and merged (1878) the
Dispatch and the Post in St. Louis. Under his direction, the evening Post-
Dispatch combined an aggressive, crusading editorial page with thorough news
coverage, augmented by sensationalism to boost circulation.
Established as a leader in the field, Pulitzer purchased the New York World in
1883 and repeated the Post-Dispatch formula--adding such new touches as sports,
comics, women's fashions, and illustrations. Fierce competition from William
Randolph Hearst, owner of the New York Journal, led to the sensationalistic
coverage of the Spanish-American War that came to be known as yellow journalism
.
Ill health ended Pulitzer's career, but he had by then established the
techniques for journalism of the future.
                                        Donald H. Johnston

Bibliography: Granberg, W. J., The World of Joseph Pulitzer (1965); Juergens,
George, Joseph Pulitzer and the New York World (1966); Rammelkamp, Julian S.,
Pulitzer's Post-Dispatch 1878-1883 (1967); Swanberg, W. A., Pulitzer (1967).


Joseph Pulitzer (1847-1911), an American journalist and newspaper magnate,
became the sole owner of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch in 1878 and established a
national reputation through vigorous editorials and sensationalistic reporting.
Pulitzer's will funded one of the first American schools of journalism and
established the prestigious prizes that bear his name.  (The Bettmann Archive)

Pulitzer Prize
Awarded each spring in the United States for excellence in journalism, letters,
and music, the Pulitzer Prizes are prestigious and highly coveted as symbols
of success in the designated fields. First awarded in 1917, they were
established by Joseph Pulitzer, who left in his will $2 million to Columbia
University to establish a school of journalism, specifying that $500,000 should
be used to maintain annual prizes for the advancement of journalism and letters
.
The awards are bestowed by Columbia's trustees and are administered by the
Graduate School of Journalism.
Pulitzer had indicated four journalism awards and four for letters (novel, play
,
history, and biography). Over the years, however, the advisory board has added
new categories and revised some of the wording; for example, awards are now
given for "distinguished," rather than the "best" work in a particular category
.

The journalism prizes are awarded for material that appears in U.S. newspapers
during the previous calendar year. Each prize is $1,000, except for public
service, which is a gold medal. The categories are meritorious public service
(by a newspaper), general news reporting, special local (investigative)
reporting, national reporting, international reporting, editorial writing,
explanatory journalism, specialized reporting, editorial cartooning, spot news
photography, feature photography, commentary, criticism, and feature writing.

Six awards in letters and one in music, each $1,000, are given. The prizes are
for works published by American authors during the calendar year. Those for
drama and music are for the period from Apr. 21 to Mar. 31, the accepted
opening and closing dates for the theater and music seasons in the United
States.

American themes are preferred. The categories in letters are fiction, poetry,
drama, history, biography or autobiography, and general nonfiction.
Nominations can be made by anyone, but they must be accompanied by exhibits of
the work to be considered. Preliminary judging is done by juries appointed by
the university for each category. The juries submit from 3 to 6 recommendations
to an advisory board made up of 17 members--the president of the university;
Joseph Pulitzer, Jr., the donor's grandson and chairman of the board; up to
three nonjournalists; and the rest members of the newspaper community. The
board, which may reject any of the juries' choices or substitute its own
nominations, recommends the award winners to the Columbia University trustees.
                                                Donald H. Johnston

Bibliography:  Fischer, H.D., and E.J., eds., The Pulitzer Prize Archive (1987)
;
Hohenberg, John, ed., The Pulitzer Prize Story, 2 vols.  (1959, 1980);  Stuckey
,
William James, The Pulitzer Prize Novels (1966)

Pulitzer Prizes, series of 21 awards for outstanding achievements in drama,
letters, music, and journalism. They were established by the will of Joseph
Pulitzer, publisher of the New York World. They have been awarded annually sinc
e
1917 by Columbia University on recommendation of The Pulitzer Prize Board.
A newspaper-photography award was made for the first time in 1942, and an award
for a musical composition for the first time in 1943. Between 1970 and 1979,
prizes for commentary, criticism, and feature writing were added; categories
for news reporting have been added and revised several times. The value of the
prizes for journalism and the arts is $3000 (originally $500); for meritorious
public service, a gold medal is awarded instead.

Thanks, Peter (and Eva) for straightening me out.  I had no idea!

Martha

On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Peter I. Hidas wrote:

> The Catholic Church lost its political influence in Quebec decades ago. This
>  fact is having a demographic impact. French-Canadian families have very few
>  children. Many young couples do not get married. The situation is similar to
>  that of Hungary.
>
> Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Zoltan_Manyoki_HL_SP_PE_DES wrote:

> " 'valamiben' nem ismerek trefat" simply and strictly means something I take
> very seriously, that is something that I don't joke with.  Therefore, the bes
t
> translation, in my opinion, is that somebody has already posted: I don't joke
> about humour. Or perhaps: I don't mess with humour.
>
> Am I about right?
>

Yes, you are.

Thanks, Zoltan.

Martha

Joe,

I will not even attempt an answer to your type of accusations.  You
picked the wrong person for this kind of exchange.  I don't have time for
much more important matters; please don't waste my time.  Or yours.

If you are essaying to establish racial tendencies in me, you have no
concept of the person that I am.  For your information, I have always
defended the underdog.  And that should settle it.

As in the past, I will give you my solemn promise: these are my last words
on the subject.  Please take time out and grow up.

Martha

On Wed, 10 Apr 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:

> At 11:28 PM 4/9/96 -0400, Martha Bihari wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 9 Apr 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
> >
> >> surprise to you, they're an ever decreasing (francophone) minority in
> >Canada.
> >
> >With an overwhelming Catholic population I find that hard to believe,
> >unless their Asian counterparts are multiplying like rabbits.
>
> I'm glad to see that you're capable of denigrating two groups of people in
> one sentence.  So, which do you fear most?  The Quebec papists or the yellow
> hordes?
>
> Joe Szalai
>

Dear Mr. Hida!

    Do you think there are nations who adopted their  name? There are
two ways of how to call  a nation: there is  an "inner" name,  for
instance: manysi, and an other: vogul. If you have a look at the
names of  the finnugorian nations, you will see, they call themselwes
with a word, which means : speaking man. Almost all of them. How can
somebody identify himself, if he hasn't a word for it? We are  called
onogurs in the sense of deriving of our foreign names. It would be
very sad, if our name had been an adopted word.

Dear Mr. Hidas!

    I realized I had written your name in  a  wrong way.  I'm sorry.