Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX SCM 486
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-10-12
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Nottingham - Van ott valaki? (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Police Raids Against Roma (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Nottingham - Van ott valaki? (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: áéüö (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Ungar Imre: Ki tud rola? (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
6 hungary (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Police Raids Against Roma (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Police Raids Against Roma (mind)  78 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Police Raids Against Roma (mind)  376 sor     (cikkei)
10 Csokol Meg A Segem... (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Police Raids Against Roma (mind)  140 sor     (cikkei)
12 Nottingham - Van ott valaki? (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Szia új barátom! (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: áéüö (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Nottingham - Van ott valaki? (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: ? QUESTION ? (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Loans, loans, and more loans ... (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: áéüö (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Szia új barátom! (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: áéüö (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
21 Translation help needed (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Help me - could you translate this ? (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
23 Megye (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Nottingham - Van ott valaki? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Azt hiszem a sherif meg ott van.

PJ
+ - Re: Police Raids Against Roma (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
 says...
>> > You make the claim that the targetting exceeds the higher crime rate. 
>> > Present the evidence. A naked claim without evidence to back it up is 
>> > worthless. It does not good against racists and it provides an opening 

Wally replies:
>> You make the claim that the Gypsy community has a higher crime rate.
>> Present the evidence. 

dbrutus replies:
>I'm not going to start blindly researching facts to fit your fancy, 
>Set a reasonable standard for evidence and I will try to get it for you if 
>it exists. My nose tells me that the higher crime rate exists 

So Wally presents some more evidence:
Here Brutus, smell this...
(It's a bit over the top on the political correctness, but aside from that 
petty concern, the points presented indicate the racial curruption of the 
judicial system, not just the police.
+ - Re: Nottingham - Van ott valaki? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, A.L.Redey > wrote:
 wrote:
>> 
>> Azt hiszem a sherif meg ott van.
>Tegnap en is ott voltam, de csak egy PC allitott meg, nem a Sheriff

Nem Robin Hood volt az illeto?

PJ
+ - Re: áéüö (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

T. Kocsis  > wrote:
>
>A kérdésedet illetően ("Lehet magyar betüket használni ebben
>a newsgroup-ban?") hogyne lehetne, és minél többen használjuk
>annál nagyobb az esélye, annak,  hogy Pannon Joe lecseréli vég-
>re a nagypapájától örökölt VT-100 terminálját.

Veeerrry interesting, but not veerrry funny, Tamas!
I wrote I use VT-100 terminal emulation, not that I have an old VT-100
terminal.  Believe it or not, I am subscribing to a private Internet
provider that gives me simply a Unix shell account with no graphic user
interface.  Just a DOS-like prompt.  To dial into this account, I have
to use the VT-100 emulation, or something similar.  Once logged in, I
can use any of the character oriented mailers, such as elm, or Usenet
handlers, such as rn or trn.  I can also use lynx for text access to
Web sites.

Now I already figured out how to create a TCP/IP connection with this
shell account by running the SLiRP program on the host and that way to
get all the benefits of GUI tools thanks to Win95 or OS/2 WARP, but I
find that the extra resource requirements of such GUI setup is not worth
it when all I want is reading and answering my e-mail or Usenet groups.
Not to mention that I can still read better the text in character mode
setup than the grainy characters under GUI.  So unless I want to listen
to RealAudio or browse the Web, I rather use the old fashined dial-in
to my Unix shell account with the character based VT-100 emulation.
Of course at work, I've got a real nice X/Motif setup, but I would not
want to post from there to create a field day for such guys as those
who ratted on NPA.  I hope you understand.

Regards,
Joe
+ - Re: Ungar Imre: Ki tud rola? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  
says...
>
>...mi finis jam kaj transdonis al la eldonejo mian POLLINGVAN LIBRON, en
>kiu mi i.a. mencias pri Imre Ungar, la fama hungara pianisto. Polaj
>enciklopedioj nur informas pri lia naski^g-jaro. Sed kiam li mortis? A~u
>eble li ankora~u hazarde vivas, kion mi ne kredas. Kiu el vi - hungaroj
>povus min helpi?
>
>Kore salutas vin
>
>ANDREO PETTYN

>
I don't think he is still alive.  I remember, as a child, to be at one of 
his recitals.  He was not only famous because he was a first class 
concert pianist, but also because he was completely blind.  I am sorry, I 
don't understand your language, but this is all I could contribute. to 
the subject.  Agnes
+ - hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I'm Sonia Bazso.  Are you the same J. Toth who is the daugher of Ferenc 
Toth?  I'm a teacher in L.A.and taking an Internet class and of course 
was playing on the internet. So, Hi!
+ - Re: Police Raids Against Roma (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
 says...
>
>In article >, 
>(Istvan Szucs) wrote:
>
>> I am not sure about this. IF there is an overalll problem
>> with police brutality - quite independently of this issue -
>> then that obviously needs to be addressed, but reduction of
>> brutality, unwarranted searches, raids is always beneficial,
>> and an investigation seems to be sufficiently well founded.
>
>In either case, generalized brutality or racism, an investigation of 
>the accusation is warranted. The key is to come at it without a priori 
>convicting the police based only on the accusation. 

Likewise, the police, judiciary and Romanians should come at it without a 
priori convicting an entire community of having a higher crime rate based 
only on the nose of Lutas and street gossip.

>That would make the 
>investigators human rights violators themselves. The best way to teach 
>respect for human rights in law enforcement is just to start respecting 
>them and demonstrate that it is very possible to be effective in your 
>job at catching criminals without having to resort to methods that violate 
>human rights. 

The best way to teach respect ... is just to start. Oh if it were only so 
simple and easy. Did you just complete a course in platitudes and pudding? 
The problem is to unteach the prejudices inside the hearts and minds of 
many, then perhaps a start...

>I sort of wish that there were some romanian police (not SRI, beat cops) 
>on the net to give their input into the matter. It would certainly be 
>educational. 

I sort of wish that there were some Romani police (Yes Virginia there really 
is a Santa Claus) or even Romani civilians to present their case -- that 
would truly be educational.
+ - Re: Police Raids Against Roma (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
 says...
>In article >,
 (Wally Keeler) wrote:
>> A naked claim without evidence to back it up is
>> worthless. What study was made by an independent researcher(s) that 
>> proved
>> that Gypsies were responsible for such a high rate of crime deserving of
>> such continuous targetting? Not perception of a higher crime rate, but
>> actual crime. Arrest statistics prove nothing, except that one community
>> is targetted more than another, and if this is the case, then conviction
>> rates may well be skewed, because Romanian criminals are not pursued.
>> After all Romanians had gotten away with a lot of arson and murder -- no
>> arrests, convictions, virtually no investigations. Hmmmmmm!
>
>I'm not going to start blindly researching facts to fit your fancy, 
>
>Set a reasonable standard for evidence and I will try to get it for you if 
>it exists. 

For those whose erudition craves more than the olfactorial finesse of
Lutas' nose, and his reliance on the nameless man-in-the-street a.k.a.
gossip, I hereby present a smattering of bibliography pertaining to the
subject of Anti-Roma racism within Romania by, among others, the forces of
law and order. 

I would have included the various studies and reports by assorted UN
organs (conducted by astute and proven jurists) but I had posted those
earlier this year. 

For Mr Lutas, who had once exhibited his ignorance about Roma slavery in
Romania, it takes considerableeffort to restrain myself from insulting his
lack of knowledge on this subject, while at the same time, vigorously and
rigorously demanding of others that they should do their work in such as
manner as to forclose on "wriggle-room." In this regard, Mark Cristian has
a very correct attitude, and I will defer to the accuracy of his obscene
rantings.

Selected Bibliography

Poulton, H. The Blakans: Minorities and States In Conflict,
     London, Minority Rights Publications, 1991.

Fraser A. The Gypsies, Oxford: Blackwell, 1992, revised
     edition, 1995. [extensive documentation of European
     persecutions].

Cartner, H., Destroying Ethnic Identity: The Persecution of
     Gypsies in Romania, New York: Human Rights Watch Helsinki,
     1991.

Cartner, H., Romania Lynch Law: Violence Against Roma in
     Romania, New York: Human Rights Watch Helsinki, 1994

Beck, S. "Racism and the Formation of a Romani Ethnic Leader."
     In Perilous States, Conversations on Culture, Politics and
     Nation. edited by G. E. Marcus, Chicago: University of
     Chicago Press, 1993, pp.165-91, [a portrait of Nicolae
     Gheorghe by a fellow sociologist]

Gheorghe, N. "The social Construction of Romani Identity,"
     paper given at ESRC Romani Studies Seminar, University of
     Greenwich, London, March 1993.

Gheorghe, N. "Roma-Gypsy Ethnicity in Eastern Europe." Social
     Research, 58:4 (Winter 1991), 829-44.

Gheorghe, N. "Romanies in the CSCE Process: A Case study for
     the Rights of National Minorities with Dispersed
     Settlement Patterns." A report on the debates at the CSCE
     Human Dimension Seminar, Warsaw, 1993. (Romani CRISS: Rom
     Centre for Social Prevention and Studies, P. O. Box 22-68,
     70.100, Bucharest)

Watts, L. "Countering Anti-Roma Violence in Eastern Europe: The
     Snagov Conference and Related Efforts," May 1993, Project
     on Ethnic Relations, 1 Palmer Sqr, Suite 435, Princeton,
     New Jersey, 08542-3718.
+ - Re: Police Raids Against Roma (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
 says...
>> > You make the claim that the targetting exceeds the higher crime rate. 
>> > Present the evidence. A naked claim without evidence to back it up is 
>> > worthless. It does not good against racists and it provides an opening 

Wally replies: 
>> You make the claim that the Gypsy community has a higher crime rate.
>> Present the evidence. 

dbrutus excuses himself:
>I'm not going to start blindly researching facts to fit your fancy, 
>Set a reasonable standard for evidence and I will try to get it for you if 
>it exists. My nose tells me that the higher crime rate exists ...

Wally Keeler presents some more evidence:
Here Brutus, smell this:

* * * * * * * * *  CRISS NEWS - NO. 3  * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * *     APRIL 1996      * * * * * * * *

CRISS NEWS- a presentation of recent CRISS documents, activities and other
information concerning Rroma. Rromani CRISS - Rrom Center for Social
Intervention and Studies, is a NGO located in Bucharest, Romania. (See
CRISS NEWS - NR. 1 for more details).
> ----------------------------------------------------
                     Contents -  NO. 3
> ----------------------------------------------------
II.  CRISS document: Nicoleta Bitu, Jennifer Tanaka, "The Construction of a
Correct Language for the police and organs of justice when addressing Rroma
persons - A component in the prevention of violence", August 1995

Note: the authors of this work would appreciate comments, suggestions or
information concerning the following document. Thanks. Nicoleta Bitu,
Jennifer Tanaka

II. THE CONSTRUCTION OF A CORRECT LANGUAGE FOR THE POLICE AND ORGANS OF
JUSTICE WHEN ADDRESSING RROMA PERSONS -  A Component in the Prevention of
Violence

"All citizens are equal in front of the law"
        - The Romanian Constitution- Art. 16

I.Introduction:

Some activities of Rromani CRISS and the Federation of Rroma have concerned
the prevention of violence in localities where violent group conflicts have
occurred. From these experiences and the analysis of other mediation
activities with local authorities, especially the police and local
judiciaries, elements regarding the use of discriminatory language,
discourse when address members of the Rroma minority in Romania, were
identified.

During the course of seminars aimed at intra-community mediation and
conflict resolution, in which high-level members of the police and local
administration participated, the issue of the language used was discussed
between the associations and institutions represented.

The essential element is that the language used by many authorities is both
partial and subjective, though in principle they are to treat all citizens
equally.  What is disturbing is that the authorities often do not try to
combat the existing stereotypes of the Rroma, but rather reinforce them.

The role of the police and judicial bodies, in a state-of-law, is
particularly important for the application of internal laws, but also for
the implementation of international norms and standards, in the sense that
Romania respect the rights of each citizen.

Analyzing some documents and statements of the respective institutions, we
observe four general categories or types of treatment toward members of the
Rroma minority in Romania.  These include:

- The specification of the Rromani ("Tigani") ethnic identity of the
citizens, in acts and reports written by members of the police and
judiciary;
- The identification as a "Rom/Tigan" or "group of Rrom/Tigani" vis-a-vis
the quality as citizen(s) or the professions of the other parts implicated;
- Partial commentaries of some authorities which consider the motivation
for violent aggression against Rroma is due to the "anti-social behavior" of
the Rroma;
- Re-enforcing stereotypes without statistical support or relevant data.

II. The specification of the "Tigani" (Rromani) ethnic identity of the
citizens, in acts and reports written by members of the police and
judiciary:

In the case of an incident, the names of the parties implicated, from the
juridical point of view, are: the defendant (accused) and the complainant.
In the majority of indictments made in cases of collective violence, the
specification of ethnic identity is only made in reference to the "group of
Rroma" or more frequently the use of the designation "Tigani". Similarly,
this has also been observed in cases involving individual citizens
belonging to the Rromani minority.

A large majority of the experts (including local authorities) present in
the CRISS seminars on the prevention of violence responded with opposition
to our criticisms on the selective mention of ethnicity, maintaining the
relevance of the ethnic designation in the case. We agree in part, but
there still remain the following questions:
- why mention only the ethnic identity of the Rroma and not the others
involved, they being simply citizens, participants or villagers (Rroma are
not considered citizens?)?
- how would the facts be related when a group conflict is between citizens
of the same ethnic group? (i.e. group of aggressors/aggressed or
perpetraitors/victims, in place of ethnic designations); Also, until now
much of the written press coverage has described such incidents by saying
"two groups of Tigani", Is it relevant, on what basis?
- does the use of the designation "Tigani", considered to have a pejorative
and prejudiced connotation, contribute, indirectly, to the tendency to
excuse/overlook the anti-Rroma manifestations?

Examples:

1. File: 270/P/1991 OGREZENI

" ...app. 1000-1500 persons, at the instigation of the above mentioned
(Andrei Ilie, Andrei Constantin and Vasile Stefan), had pursued the Tigan
Tudor Emilian who ran from the place of the incident, suspecting that he is
hiding in the home of the Tigan Ion Ioana..."

(from, Indictment, 21 October 1993, of the Public Ministry, Giurgiu Court)

2. RACSA: Penal File no.  1416/P/1994

"The events from Racsa village, comuna Orasul Nou, County Satu Mare, had
been preceeded, in the day of 27 May 1994, by the killing during a robbery
of the sheep herder Craciun Toma, 66 years old ... by the Roma Varga Marin
Adrian, 21 years, and Mezei Marin, 19 years.

"...a part of the participants had left the domicile of the Rom Varga Ioan"

(from the "Note with regard to the state of research in the case of
conflicts in Racsa and Hadareni" - Ministry of Interior, General
Inspectorate of the Police, 1994)

3. File: 5100/P/1985 - Bucharest

"...Fieraru Nicolae...Romanian citizen (Tigan)..."

(from the "Indictment; Prosecuting body of Romania - local prosecutor body
sector 1, Bucharest")

4. File: 1658/P/1992 - Valenii Lapusului

"... the destruction of the Tigani houses represents an infraction against
the personal property, based on prejudiced attitudes, mentioned in art.
217, par. 1, Penal Code, together with art. 78

(Indictment Valenii Lapusului)

5. File: 390/P/1994 - Case of Mr. Parvu Nicolae, Brasov County - charged
with begging in Poland (from a report provided by The Association of
Lawyers for the Defense of Human Rights (APADO), Brasov, Romania)

The opening words of the Prosecutor's Complaint sent to the County Court,
of the Special Commission of the Magistrate Brasov:

"The accused Pirvu Nicolae is a Tigan..."

The APADO report mentions that usually a Complaint does not include, "the
accused is a 'Romanian', 'Hungarian', 'Jew' or 'Armenian'".  APADO also
considers the fact that this is in the first line of the act has an evident
aim of shedding an "unfavorable light" on the accused; to put him, from the
beginning, in a "situation of inferiority," from the moment in which the
process will take debate.

III.  The identification as a "group of Rom/Tigani" or "Rom/Tigan"
vis-a-vis the quality as a citizen or the profession of the other part
implicated:

We have observed the practice of making distinctions regarding the parties
implicated; references to  profession or "citizenship" on the one hand and
the ethnicity "Rom/Tigan" on the other. This has been identified in cases
concerning groups and individuals.

Examples:

6. File: 270/P/1991 OGREZENI

"...following the incident between the teacher Andrei Constantin and the
Tigan Tudor Emilian"

("Indictment, 21 October 1993, of the Public Ministry, Giurgiu Court)

7. File: 4/287/1991 Mihail Kogalniceanu

"...the citizens Francu Dumitru and Ungureanu Constantin,... had been hit
by stones and other hard objects by more Roma"

("Indictment Mihail Kogalniceanu, County Prosecutor's office Constanta")

8. Case: Cuza Voda (Conflict in July 10, 1990)

"...following an incident...between Radu Simion, tractorist and a nomadic
Rom..."

"Note referring to the past activities of police for the prevention and
combating of inter-ethnic conflicts", Ministry of Interior, General
Inspector of the Police)

IV. Partial commentaries of some authorities which consider the motivation
for violent aggression against Rroma is due to the "anti-social behavior"
of the Rroma:

It is a concern that the language describing cases of ethnic conflicts may
support some beliefs that the Rroma are indirectly guilty for the burning
of their own houses.  In the documents produced by some institutions in
charge of the investigations of these cases, public opinion is reinforced
through the confirmation of the stereotypes concerning "anti-social Tigani
behavior".

One of the repercussions of this could be the discriminatory application of
justice. If members of the legal bodies are subjective and believe the
stereotypes of the Rroma, they may not arrest those that committed the
crimes because they are "different" from the Rroma or actual "victims" of
the "Rroma (Tigani) behavior/problem".

One question that still needs to be clarified is whether the ethnic
designation is determined by the investigators (on the basis of
dark-skinned appearance) or whether it is self-declared by the Rrom.

Some of the participants' comments concerning their "ability to identify
Rroma" lead us to believe that it is less a matter of Rroma
self-identification.

Examples:

9. File: 1416/P/1994 RACSA

"The very grave action that the two Roma had done sparked agitation, on an
emotional basis, of a part of the local citizens which, ... after they
consumed alcohol ... decided to kick the Rroma out of the village and burn
their houses"

("Note with regard to the state of research in the case of conflicts in
Racsa and Hadareni" - Ministry of Interior, General Inspectorate of the
Police, 1994)

10. File: 270/P/1991 OGREZENI

"...found under the influence of the acts committed by the Roma,...against
some youths in the village, and the tense situation between the Romanians
and Tigani from Ogrezeni, who continuously infringe the norms of social
life, stealing from the villagers, causing injury, insult, accosting
persons etc...led to this conflict which created an atmosphere of revenge
against the other"

("Indictment, 21 October 1993, of the Public Ministry, Giurgiu Court)

11. File: 605/P/1992 GAISENI (Giurgiu County)

"...for a long time there has existed a tense atmosphere between the
Romanian and Tigani villagers, determined by the attitude of the Tigani
(breaking and entering, stealing, etc.)

"[The aggressors] ... had been offended by the behavior of the Tigani"

(Indictment 08.06.93, Local Prosecutor's Office, Bolintin Vale, County
Giurgiu, Gaiseni)

12. File: 4/287/1991 Mihail Kogalniceanu

"From the analysis of the acts from the file it is shown that, to the date
of the facts, the suspects had been under the influence of some powerful
disturbances or emotions provoked by the actions of the victims, which led
the suspects to gather with a wish to seek revenge"

("Indictment Mihail Kogalniceanu, County Prosecutor's office Constanta")

13. Case: Casinul Nou, Plaiesii de Jos (Conflict August 12, 1990)

* until this point, the Romanian nationality of the aggressors in other
cases was not specified, but here when Hungarian nationals are involved
mention of the offenders' nationality is made:

"...after the frustrations accumulated through time by the citizens who
suffered from multiple anti-social acts committed by Tigani, around 400
persons, of Hungarian nationality, destroyed 26 homes of the Roma."

"Note referring to the past activities of police for the prevention and
combating of inter-ethnic conflicts", Ministry of Interior, General
Inspector of the Police - Colonel Rusu Stoian)

In the above note of the General Inspector of the Police, the opinion is
expressed that "the analysis, conducted with regard to the conflicts
between the majority population, of which, in some cases, show also the
Hungarian and the Rroma ethnic groups, has lead to the conclusion that, not
one has an inter-ethnic cause, [rather] being generated by the behaviour
and attitude of the Rroma, which had created a climate of tension through
the overlooking and infringement of the laws and regulations of living
together peacefully." (underlining in original text)

V. Re-enforcing stereotypes without statistical support or relevant data:

Certain remarks of the police, exhibiting common stereoptypes of the Rroma,
may provoke a reticence for trust and respect on the part of the Rroma
population. When a policeman acts with prejudiced attitudes and remarks
toward the Rroma, even treating the children as delinquents, a negative
reaction may result. This may also have an early influence on negative
attitudes of Rroma children toward the police and society.

Negative generalizations of the "Tigani"(Roma), reinforce stereotypes, in
that they do not speak of individual citizens, but imply the entire ethnic
group (collective guilt).

Examples:

14. File: 4/287/1991 Mihail Kogalniceanu

"The majority of young Roma are known as delinquents, in the sense that
they have committed penal acts, especially stealing and beatings..."

("Indictment Mihail Kogalniceanu, County Prosecutor office Constanta")

15. Statements from the Report by the Ministry of Interior General
Inspectorate of Police

"...ascertained an increase of psychic sicknesses among the Tigani,
especially psychosis, sociopathies, etilism and oligophren, and the
abrogation of the restrictive measures in relation with abortions, contrary
to the expectation, among this ethnic group, [results in] the high
birth-rate level, the families continuing to have 5-7 children"

"It is ascertained, likewise, the creation of tensioned states that follow
the illegal use of agricultural land by Tigani, situations happening in all
Counties [of Romania]".

Likewise, the Tigani have abusively occupied locations of the state
property, in which they destroy them and don't pay the block utilities".

"Note referring to the past activities of police for the prevention and
combating of inter-ethnic conflicts", Ministry of Interior, General
Inspector of the Police- Colonel Rusu Stoian)

16. Statement of the Chief of Police Inspectorate, the Tulcea County (in
the context of meetings organized by Aven Amentza Foundation, in
cooperation with the Ministry of Culture.  Report by Maria Ionescu)

"In 1980, the Roma were comprised of three categories:  former
nomads(Ursari); type of career "miners" (vatrarii din cariera); and
Roma-Turks. . . .The Roma commit infractions both here and outside
Romania."

"Roma children commit small robberies (thefts) in school and cause
emotional disturbances of the other children (timoreaza)"

17. Statement of the Chief of Police Inspectorate, Galati County (in
context of meetings organized by Aven Amentza Foundation, in cooperation
with the Ministry of Culture)

"The Police take all steps to augment their numbers and control the Tigani"

VI. Recommendations:
The solutions which may serve to reduce these stereotypes expressed in the
language and activities of some state organ members, could be introduced
through:
- special courses in which the policemen and prosecutors are trained to use
a non-discriminatory language;
- the continuation of the police participation (which has already shown
some flexibility) in expert/high-level discussions concerning the
statistics referring to the Rroma (i.e. those made by the Project on Ethnic
Relations); and a special committee of specialists from different public
and private organizations to conduct a study on the current methodologies
of drawing up police statistics, etc.
- seminars on the language used by police and the judiciary (study reports,
documents,etc);
- support of a study on police press releases, judicial cases involving
Rroma persons and groups, and eventually forming a policy standard on
appropriate language/references (especially in public communications), to
be introduced to all levels of the police and judiciary in Romania;

For comments, suggestions or questions you may contact us at the following:
Rromani CRISS - Rrom Center for Social Intervention and Studies
c.p. 22-68, Bucharest, Romania 70100
tel. & fax:  + (4 01) 211 78 68
e-mail:  
+ - Csokol Meg A Segem... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

En nem akkarak enni a bodos szar!
+ - Re: Police Raids Against Roma (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

T.M.Lutas ) writes:
> In article >,
>  (Wally Keeler) wrote:
> 
>> In > Oct 1\96
>>  (T.M.Lutas) wrote:
>> |In article >,  
>> |(Istvan Szucs) wrote: 
> 
>> The fact that an arrested Romanian would get punched in the face just like a
n
>> arrested Gypsy ignores the significant symmetry that 2 two arrested Romanian
s
>> get punched in the face just like the 20 arrested Gypsies, ergo, there is no
>> racism involved.
> 
> I did not say that there is no racism involved. I happen to agree with 
> your point that just because romanians and gypsies are equally badly 
> treated does not clear the police of racism. But neither does it convict 
> them either. I was pointing out a defect in the report that I hoped (and 
> still hope) someone with better information would correct. When making the 
> charge of racism, it is best to have an airtight case. If you leave wiggle 
> room, you are just creating material for real romanian racists to increase 
> their influence by hyping on the defects in the evidence. That is a situation
 
> that I do not wish to see. 
> 
>> It is not a matter of exhibiting that Gypsy criminals are treated more badly
>> than Romanian criminals. I have no doubt that both are treated like shit. Th
e
>> salient point is that the Gypsy "community" is being targeted and beseiged b
y
>> the law enforcement officials. 
> 
> Are they targeted beyond the justifiable targeting due to their higher crime 
> rate? I hope that you agree that high crime communities should be targeted. 
> Such targeting should be proportional to the increased crime rates. The 
> part of the report that has been reproduced here does not make any sort of 
> realistic allowance for these facts of life, giving more grist for real 
> racists. It is so easy for them to whisper "look at those gypsies, they 
> pretend like they don't commit more crimes. The whole report is a pack 
> of lies!" 
> 
>> I have posted instances where a "community" of
>> ethnic Romanians or Magyars have committed arson, burning down entire Gypsy
>> villages or neighbourhoods, a case which resulted in death (murder) yet ther
e
>> has never been an instance where a Romanian has been subjected to being a
>> suspect, let alone arrested, or furthermore convicted, in spite of the fact
>> that the crimes occurred in front of officials. This is not a temporary
>> aberration, but seems to be a systemic feature of law enforcement.
> 
> I hope you remember my position that crime must be punished and if such 
> punishments were to be handed out by the law, the mobs would disappear. 
> As far as I know, the current crackdown *has* made mob justice disappear. 
> I hope that it stays like that. Now comes the challenge of fine tuning the 
> police so they not only do their job but they respect people's rights while 
> doing it. 
> 
>> Furthermore, one might want to take a look at the overwhelming makeup of the
>> law enforcers -- are they overwhelmingly Romanian. 
> 
> If there is racism in police hiring practices it should be stomped out. 
> But entry standards should not be relaxed merely to have an "ethnically 
> correct" police department. That is an insult to the public who deserve 
> the best protection they can get and to those minority police who would 
> have gotten in on pure merit but have to walk around with the stain of 
> being assumed to have gotten in because of a quota system. 
> 
>> |The gypsies *do* have a higher crime rate, they *would* be hit harder by  
>> |a general police disregard for human rights. But if they would attack it
>> as  
>> |a general disregard instead of a special problem of their ethnicity, they
>>  
>> |may find themselves with a wider (and winning) coalition to stop it.  
> 
>> There is some merit in the suggestion of "a general police disregard for hum
an
>> rights", which is true, however, there does exist a disproportionate disrega
rd
>> for the rights of the Gypsy community that appears far in excess to the
>> disproportionate "higher crime rate." What the Gypsy rights organs might
>> attempt is to build coalitions with Romanian rights organs to address the
>> problems. If there is a disproportionate violation of Gypsy rights, then the
re
>> is an interest for the Romanian community to protect itself from tragic
>> backlash. It is in the interest of all sides that disproportionate abuse
>> whither.
> 
> Actually it is in the interest of all sides that all abuse wither. 
> Legitimate law enforcement, even targetted law enforcement is not abusive 
> when done right. 
> 
> You make the claim that the targetting exceeds the higher crime rate. 
> Present the evidence. A naked claim without evidence to back it up is 
> worthless. It does not good against racists and it provides an opening 

You make the claim that the Gypsy community has a higher crime rate.
Present the evidence. A naked claim without evidence to back it up is
worthless. What study was made by an independent researcher(s) that proved
that Gypsies were responsible for such a high rate of crime deserving of
such continuous targetting? Not perception of a higher crime rate, but
actual crime. Arrest statistics prove nothing, except that one community
is targetted more than another, and if this is the case, then conviction
rates may well be skewed, because Romanian criminals are not pursued.
After all Romanians had gotten away with a lot of arson and murder -- no
arrests, convictions, virtually no investigations. Hmmmmmm!

>> There may well be dynamics within the overall society of Romania that is
>> contributing as a causitive factor to this "higher crime rate." A Gypsy may
>> well have to steal food to feed his family. A strong Gypsy male may well ste
al
>> a manhole cover for resale as scrap metal in order to feed his family. The m
an
>> driving his car to work and who drives over the open manhole and dies in the
>> accident, results in his family not being able to feed itself. The
>> consequences for all concerned is tragic. 
> 
> Part of those dynamics are inside gypsy culture itself. Why are there so 
> few gypsy intellectuals, doctors, college graduates even? Is it racism? 
> Or is it a lower value placed on formal education than romanians have? With 
> lower education levels comes lower pay, lower opportunities for jobs, and a 
> general separation from the elite of society. Are these things the fault of 
> anybody but the gypsies themselves? As christians, romanians are obligated 
> to keep an open hand reached out to help our less fortunate brothers. If 
> the hand is not taken whose fault is it? 
> 
> Clearly, the situation needs to be examined and any racism, any change in 
> behavior by law enforcement due to the ethnicity of the criminal is to be 
> condemned and simply not tolerated. But gypsies and other minorities should 
> take care and not set themselves up for a backlash by overreaching. 
> 
> DB
> 
> -- 
> The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
> Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
> Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
> These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such
.
+ - Nottingham - Van ott valaki? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Bratsagos Udvozletem!

Kivancsi vagyok hogy van-e vagy el-e valaki Nottinghamban?
Azert szeretnek talakozni Nottinghami magyarokkal, mert most kaptam
egy allast ajanlatot onnan, s egy ket helybeli korulmenyrol szeretnek
erdeklodni, na meg egy ismeretsegi kort is szeretnek kialakitani.

Boldog lennek ha valaszt kapnek valakitol! Udv. Szabo Attila

E-mail: 
+ - Re: Szia új barátom! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  > wrote:
| Istvan Szucs > wrote:
| >
| >What's your point?
| 
| Never mind. The guy I addressed has got the point.
| 
| Joe

I'm still curious what it was...
Istvan
+ - Re: áéüö (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
(Josef Sumegi) wrote:
> 
> Lehet magyar betüket használni ebben a newsgroup-ban? Hogy néznek ezek
> ki nálad?
> 
Well, they work fine on my computer.

Perhaps many systems will not allow the accented letters?
It is a pity as it is so much easier to read!





--
+ - Re: Nottingham - Van ott valaki? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> >> Azt hiszem a sherif meg ott van.
> >Tegnap en is ott voltam, de csak egy PC allitott meg, nem a Sheriff
> 
> Nem Robin Hood volt az illeto?
Inkabb Little John-nak latszott... :-)
kAos
+ - Re: ? QUESTION ? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article > Peter k Chong > w
rites:
>Can I just say "emlékszel-e még" to mean "Do you still remember me"

Same as in English: "Do you remember?" vs. "Do you remember me?"
The former leaves more possibilities, it might mean: do you remember the
good time we had together, etc
-- 
-- Olivier Clary   mailto:   http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1326/
Me'te'o-France/CNRM/Groupe Mode'lisation pour Assimiln. et Pre'vision, Toulouse
Aussi loin qu'est l'orient de l'occident, Il met loin de moi mes fautes --Ps103
Se nem kicsi, se nem nagy, / E'ppen hozza'm valo' vagy!  (Lakodalmas -Te'ka e.)
+ - Re: Loans, loans, and more loans ... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >  () writes:
>If you believe that loans will actually be used for the targeted
>purposes, be my guest.

If they are taken by independant, private companies why not?
The case of loans taken _before the fall of the Berlin wall_, when
State control was still general, is quite different. The present debt
indeed comes from loans which the West would have been wiser not to give...
(It is the West's interest to have richer neighbours instead of what
is found now)

>Besides, money is fluid; earmarking it to some purpose only allows funds
>previously earmarked for it to be freed up and go somewhere else.

You mean, the saved money that the company would have used for investment,
and which is now unnecessary, will go to less admittable purposes?
With recent corruption stories this would be possible, but had they had
the money or the possibility to save it in the first place? Rather not,
according to what is heard of the economical situation of most sectors.

Regards:
-- 
-- Olivier Clary   mailto:   http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1326/
Me'te'o-France/CNRM/Groupe Mode'lisation pour Assimiln. et Pre'vision, Toulouse
Aussi loin qu'est l'orient de l'occident, Il met loin de moi mes fautes --Ps103
Se nem kicsi, se nem nagy, / E'ppen hozza'm valo' vagy!  (Lakodalmas -Te'ka e.)
+ - Re: áéüö (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >  () writes:
>Viszont azt sem kell feltetelezni, hogy mindenki GUI-t hasznal

Azt se tudom, micsoda... én is rendszerint vt100 tipúsú ablakban vagyok
(xterm) mégse nehéz a dolog (a nehéz esetekben az ún "accents FAQ" mindent
megmagyaráz!). Igaz, ha (ritkán) minitel-terminálon vagyok, azon nincs ékezet
(szégyen! ha már ez van a legtöbb háztartásban, legalább a francia nyelvre
kitervezték volna)

>nincsenek rajta kulon billentyuk a specialis ekezetes magyar betukre.

Több FAQ ad erre megoldást, jelenleg francia AZERTY billentyűtáblám van
és csupán a következőkre van külön billentyű: é č ç ŕ ů  -  az ö ô (két-pont
és "kalap") úgy van, hogy külön (^/:) billentyű meg az o betű (például).
Tehát á í ó ú ő + nagybetűk saját Alt típusú ügyeskedéseim a FAQ alapján...

>Foleg, ha az ember ket ujjas po~co~go", mint yours truly.

Mint ahogy én. Így legalább van időm gondolkozni, kevesebb a hiba magyarul!

Üdv:
-- 
-- Olivier Clary   mailto:   http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1326/
Me'te'o-France/CNRM/Groupe Mode'lisation pour Assimiln. et Pre'vision, Toulouse
Aussi loin qu'est l'orient de l'occident, Il met loin de moi mes fautes --Ps103
Se nem kicsi, se nem nagy, / E'ppen hozza'm valo' vagy!  (Lakodalmas -Te'ka e.)
+ - Re: Szia új barátom! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

OK, lets do something productive. I correct the Hungarian text you
produced until now:

>Hogy Vagy !

Hogy vagy ?

>A legény HongKongni vagyok. 

Hongkongi legény vagyok.

>Tanulok nyelved, de nem beszélek jól magyarul !

The secont part of the sentence is perfect. You may start it 
two different ways:

Tanulom a nyelvet,   -- I am learning the language,
Tanulom a nyelved, --- I am learning your language,

You only say 'tanulok' when you don't say after what you learn.
Tanulok valamit -- I am learning something
Tanulok az iskolaban -- I am earning in the school

When you explicitely declare *what* you learn, you must use an
other conjugation (this is a tricky thing in Hungarian):

Tanulom a nyelvet,   -- I am learning the language

>Hol lakik ?  Maga magyar ?

I don't correct it because it is entirely correct grammaticaly.
However the 'maga'  in this question sounds a little bit rough
or rude (Joe might deserve it, I don't know what was your in-
tent). It is  more polite if you use the 'ön':  ön magyar ?
önök magyarok ? ---  are you Hungarian(s)?  especially if you
learn Hungarian for business purpose.

Tamas
+ - Re: áéüö (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >  () writes:
>To dial into this account, I have to use the VT-100 emulation,

This is where it can be told to use an accented font, the details depend
on your local system (PC, Mac etc) and on the emulation program.
-- 
-- Olivier Clary   mailto:   http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1326/
Me'te'o-France/CNRM/Groupe Mode'lisation pour Assimiln. et Pre'vision, Toulouse
Aussi loin qu'est l'orient de l'occident, Il met loin de moi mes fautes --Ps103
Se nem kicsi, se nem nagy, / E'ppen hozza'm valo' vagy!  (Lakodalmas -Te'ka e.)
+ - Translation help needed (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello,

I have found a document and would Love if someone would please help to
translate the meaning of the headings for me.
Would appreciate and and all help very much.


Keresztsegi anyakonyv a 

Sorszam

Napja a
szuletesnek  kerseztelesnek

A keresztelendo 
neve

neme
fi  no

torvenyes
torvenytelen

ev
nevuk es polgari allasuk a szuleknek

lakhely, hazszam

nevuk es polgari allasuk a keresztszuloknek

kereszteio szemely neve

szrevetelek


Thank you very much
Sincerely,
Diane

-- 
Diane Weightman


:-)
+ - Re: Help me - could you translate this ? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Cristiano Volpi wrote:
> 
> Can anybody hel me ? I have to translathe this:
> 
> " nevetse'ges + felha'bori'to' + ifeszto'', hogy ennyire hia'nyzol  "
> 
> " nagyon hia'nyzik a grany(it's a cake) , a lasagne(it's a kind of pasta)
> meg azert te is.
>   negyon. e's mindenhogyan.
> 
> Thanks a lot


Here it goes Cristiano!

"It's laughable (unbelievable), shocking, and frightening (ijesztô) how
much I miss you."

"I miss the grany, the lasagna, and of course, you in every way"

Mamma Mia!!!!!!!!!
Translation:  "Oh Baby!!!!!!!!"

Well, I guess you fed her well.

HipCat
-- 
Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/
+ - Megye (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello,
              Might anyone be able to tell me if Megye is a town and if
so where it is?  I assume it is a town and have seen reference to it in
a few documents.  Thanks in advance.  Any and all help would be greatly
appreciated!!

Sincerely
Diane
-- 
Diane Weightman


:-)

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