Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 847
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-11-15
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: the nasty Orban (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: To everybody (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Aradi vertanuk (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: What is demagoguery? (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
7 Info on Michalovce(Nagy Mihal) wanted (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: What is demagoguery? (mind)  50 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: To everybody (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Social Concerns (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: To everybody (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: To everybody (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: the nasty Orban (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: poem - please pass it on (mind)  78 sor     (cikkei)
16 Intellectual elite and the government (mind)  85 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: To everybody (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
18 Did you hear about the Tocsik affair? (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: To everybody (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: the nasty Orban (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind)  86 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Did you hear about the Tocsik affair? (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: the nasty Orban (1) (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: the nasty Orban (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: the nasty Orban (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In discussing Mr Orban's October 23 pronunciamento, I do think Magdolna
Zimanyi protests too much.  The argument centers on the subtext of the
following sentence (quoted from BLA, which is itself quoting Magyar Nemzet
-- we are tacitly assuming all these multi-level quotes are correct):

> A mai fiatalsagot elsosorban az 1994-ben megalakult kormanykoalicio
> razta fel, amelyet a kadari hatalomnak a megtorlasok ideje alatt
> mutatott ideologiaja kapcsolt egybe.

If one tries to deconstruct this sentence, it does assert, inter alia,
that (a) the MSZP, as it exists today, is based on the ideology of
the Kadar regime in its early repressive period between 1956-63
(b) the SZDSZ, as it exists today, is also based on the ideology of
that very same period of the Kadar regime (c) this is the paramount
fact that holds the coalition together.

Since this is the only snippet of Orban's speech that has come down to us
over the wire, I have no idea whether Orban has tried to substantiate
any of these three points.  As far as I can see, (b) and (c) are rather
dubbious assertions, given the fact that the leadership of the SZDSZ
can be divided roughly into three groups: those who were in prison for
most of the 1956-63 period (Goncz, Mecs, Vasarhelyi, Eorsi), those who
were still wearing short pants (Peto, Kuncze, Rajk), and those who have
not been born yet.  I don't know if I would call Orban's statement
"nasty", but I think it is safe to call it mendacious, malicious, and
dishonest.  But then Orban is a politician, so he is only doing what
politicians do for a living.  As far as negative campaigning goes, this
is not yet in the class of the Willie Horton Maneuver, but Hungary is
rapidly catching up...

-----
Gabor Fencsik

+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi, Listmembers!

At 22:18 12/11/96 -0500, you wrote:
>At 02:44 AM 11/12/96 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
>>Dear listmembers,
>>
>>if you have(had) time and intention to read my and S.Stowe's posting about
>>War Criminals, please answer my questions.
>>
>>i, Do you think I am making as nasty personal attacks as Sam does? Are
>>these personal attacks nasty at all, or my English left me behind again?
>>
>>Some pearls from me and Sam:
>
>Pearls?  Pearls??  Fool's gold is how I would describe it.  And asking
>listmembers to chose between you and Sam is a bit much.  There's too many
>negatives to deal with.

A case of the iron pyrite calling the nugget fool's gold, if I ever saw one!
>
><snip>
>>ii, What do you think about Sam's idea about sending the war criminals
>>to third world countries as UN stuff? Am I the only one who feels this
>>idea is odd, considering the possible attitude and the age of these people.
>
>Sam's idea is a bit odd but not as odd as your concern for the well-being of
>convicted war criminals.

But that is not Janos's attitude at all, Joe! As far as I can see, Janos is
saying that convicted war criminals should be dealt with in the traditional
way, not by putting them to doing *community service* in somebody else's
country. He said that the contribution would be questionable at best and
might result in them becoming allies of local warlords. This doesn't sound
like *concern* for *their* well-being, Joe.

I enjoy Janos's posts, because to me he sounds like a patriotic Hungarian
who is not extremist or anti-semite, and I do not see why his posts generate
so much hostility on the part of Joe and Sam. Lighten up, guys! :-))
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: Aradi vertanuk (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 29 Oct 1996 02:04:30 -0500, Janos Zsargo
> wrote:

>L.Elteto wrote:
>
>>Right. While we are at it, let's not forget another skilful trick of 19th
>>cent.  Hungarian historians: making heroes of the generals executed at
>>Arad.  After all, they had been Habsburg officers before, and it was
>>perfectly understandable that the Hof would have them hanged for treason.
>
>As far as I know, Cardinal Richelieu told: The treason is only a question
>of time. I would add and a question of who you are. Ie there and that time
>they was traitors for the Hof, 30 -50 years later they became heroes. Today
>and for me (and for most of the Hungarians) they are heroes. And they were
>heroes for the contemporary hungarians and for their own conciousness as
>they (the generals) did not regret what they did (as far as I know).

>J.Zs
I agree that these military leaders were considered traitors. Their
execution is also acceptable per se. What has ranckled and continues
to do so is that they were executed as criminals by hanging and NOT as
soldiers by firing squad to which many believe they were entitled to
as military officers.
+ - Re: What is demagoguery? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:43 PM 11/13/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>I'm perplexed.  I haven't read anything by Barna Bozoki in Hungarian on
>FORUM, and I don't remember any of his previous posts to this list, but what
>he has written in the last couple of weeks doesn't sound like right-wing
>radical stuff to me.  It doesn't even sound right wing.  Surely, not
>everything is lost in translation.  Can you unperplex me?

        I'm not going to disect Mr. Bozoki's political beliefs but believe
me that I am not wrong.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:42 PM 11/13/96 -0500, Barna Bozoki wrote:
>On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>
>>        All right, let's try it again. What you were saying was as follows:
>>"Since you, Eva Balogh, considered Klara Feher's writing on the plight of
>>Hungarian pensioners demagogic, you must also consider Gyula Illyes's `Egy
>>mondat a zsarnoksag ellen' also demagogic." That is what you were saying, my
>>fellow.
>
>No I did not say that. What I implied: Your overreaction to Klara Feher's
>article is ridiculous and it is based on your prejudiced biased view of me
>and in a lesser extent on your dislike of Klara Feher. I expected that you
>will see this if you think that most of our cherished literary works use
>dramatic strong language. If you would come across this article by reading
>it in a newspaper like me, I doubt that you would have reacted so
>strongly.  You got angry because you made up your mind that I posted this
>as a propaganda against the government . You are wrong, I posted it
>because I was shocked by the content of it and wanted to know how serious
>is the problem the article described.

        There is one thing I really dislike: someone not taking
responsibility for his own words. No, if the above were an accurate
description of what you wanted to say then it wasn't it necessary to bring
in Gyula Illyes's "Egy mondat a zsarnoksagrol," was it?

>I apologize to the other readers of the list for forcing you to read this
>ugly stuff. I hope you read my posts with a more open mind and saw, that I
>never made any reference to Eva Balogh's character or political views.

        Please, don't apologize for me. I can take care of my own affairs
and I will apologize if I feel that an apology is due. If anyone should
apologize it is you for acccusing me of considering Illyes' great
anti-totalitarian poem demagogic.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:38 PM 11/13/96 -0400, Peter Hidas wrote:
>When a piece of music or poem or novel is created it begins an independent
>life, independent of its creator. This is the only way we can enjoy the
>music of Wagner, without agreeing with his Nazism or the philosophical
>writings of Lukacs without worrying about his behaviour as a war commissar
>in 1919. Klara Feher's best works can also be enjoyed without taking into
>consideration  her character or political behaviour today.

        I'm afraid you misunderstood the gist of this discussion. It has
nothing to do with Klara Feher as a writer of books for teenagers and
co-author (with her husband) of travelogues. We are talking about Klara
Feher as a journalist. We are talking about Klara Feher's politics during
the Rakosi and Kadar regimes and her politics in 1996. And that has nothing
to do with her worth as a writer. And let's not get too carried away: she
wasn't much of a writer. Put it that way: school children will not have to
learn about her in Hungarian classes a few years down the road. She is no
Bertold Brecht--whose politics I thoroughly dislike but at the same time
admit that he was a very important writer.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Info on Michalovce(Nagy Mihal) wanted (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I am interested in information on Michalovce and the surrounding area.
Would like to know more about history, get detailed maps,  photos, names
of families, correspondance, places to stay and eat, etc..  If there is
anyone that can help, I would greatly appreciate it.

My family (on mother's side) originated there and immigrated to the U.S.
in 1928, settling ion New York.

I plan a visit in May.

Sincerely - Joe
+ - Re: What is demagoguery? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:24 PM 11/13/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>If it is true that "Hungarians are prone to exaggeration" and that "the
>situation is a great deal less tragic than some people... depict", then
>would it be fair to say that the situation in Hungary wasn't all that bad
>before 1989?
>
>I'm afraid that Eva Balogh is getting close to the belief that criticism of
>political/economic systems that she disagrees with is valid, and criticism
>of political/economic systems that she approves of is misplaced.

        I'm afraid that Joe Szalai is so desperately trying to argue with me
that he is putting words into my mouth. I have never said that the Hungarian
situation was that bad before 1989, especially if one compared it to East
Germany, Czechoslovakia, Romania, or the Soviet Union. Do you remember?
Gulyas communism? Especially in the 1970s the population's economic progress
was remarkable, unfortunately not because of expansion of the economy but
because of those enormous foreign loans which at the moment are paralyzing
Hungarian recovery. I am just reading a newly published economic history of
Hungary between 1914 and 1989 and according to the statistics, real wages in
constant forints have arisen almost four fold between 1950 and 1987. Living
standards had risen especially briskly between 1966 and 1975, but by the
1980s the living standards stopped their rise and the population became
disenchanted with the regime.
        Even the political situation wasn't that bad, as long as you didn't
mind the one-party system and it seems that most people didn't mind it. The
latter half of the Kadar regime was labeled a "soft dictatorship." As long
as you didn't stand on the main square and shouted your opposition to the
regime nobody bothered you. People wanted a political change not because of
their burning desire for freedom but because they wanted to live better. And
they are disappointed today because most people live worse than before. They
are also upset with some of the features of the market economy; for example,
lack of sinecures. (In Hungarian called "le'tbizonytalansa'g." We are
accustomed to the fact that our job might not exist in the future and we
will have to find other employment. This whole notion was practically
unknown in Hungary and people find it very upsetting.

        So, I have never said that the later Kadar regime was that bad as
long as you didn't mind the lack of democracy and that you had to be careful
what you said in public. I, for one, wouldn't have been able to live
there--given, of course, my experiences from age of twenty in Canada and the
United States--because I would have felt sufficated and couldn't have
written really honest history. Again, I don't want to be accused of
dismissing all historical writings during those years. Most historians did
excellent work still very much usable today. They didn't have to lie
outright; they simply had to be careful how they phrased things. And certain
things couldn't be said. But I am very much of a free-thinking person who
hates to be harnessed by an ideology. In addition, I am very outspoken.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Johanne:
>
> I enjoy Janos's posts, because to me he sounds like a patriotic Hungarian
> who is not extremist or anti-semite, and I do not see why his posts generate
> so much hostility on the part of Joe and Sam. Lighten up, guys! :-))
> >
> >Joe Szalai
> >
> >
> Johanne L. Tournier
> e-mail - 
>
The answer is so easy, Johanna, that you may be surprised
to learn it: Joe and Sam has a special mission here on
this list as far as Hungary and its "general impression"
(as Eva Balogh uses this expression) in the minds of the
people of the United States is concerned.
                                                Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: Social Concerns (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> >In capitalism your free choice is linearly related to the size of
> >your bankaccount.
>
> This is why this system works. Everyone tries to increase this size to
 maximum.
>


That's why it doesn't work. A large section of the population
hasn't got the same opportunity for this successful "increasing",
than another (those who already have above average  lot.)



> >
> >I detect inconsistency. In capitalism you are lucky to do what you
> >are forced to do?
>
> Who is forcing anyone? Last time I checked people lined up at factories
> advertising job openings.
>
> Gabor D. Farkas

What other choice they have? They are free to be
unemployed and poor, they are not free to choose jobs,
choose house, choose education.


+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Ferenc Novak
> writes:

>Janos,
>
>As you should know by know, Sam's debating style is, hmm, somewhat
>unconventional.  I confess to being rather intrigued by his brilliant,
though
>confrontational technique.  Unfortunately, he tends to use his facility
with
>the language to abuse, rather than persuade his debating partners.

Translation: "I've crossed swords with the guy before and always come away
with some nasty paper cuts."

> While
>occasionally amusing, his mode of carrying on a debate is often rude,
>sarcastic and downright uncouth.  My advice: if you don't like his style,
>just ignore him and he'll go away.

Translation: "Dear God, just keep him away from me. I already have enough
trouble with Eva Balogh."
Sam Stowe

>
>Ferenc
>
>Ferenc




"You can sum up the entire history of the
Confederacy in one sentence -- 'Good
defense; couldn't win on the road'..."
-- Joe Queenan
+ - Re: (Illyes, Meray, Dery), HUNGARY.0843..961110 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 14 Nov 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

>        There is one thing I really dislike: someone not taking
>responsibility for his own words. No, if the above were an accurate
>description of what you wanted to say then it wasn't it necessary to bring
>in Gyula Illyes's "Egy mondat a zsarnoksagrol," was it?

So we agree on something. I also dislike if someone is not taking
responsibility for his/her own words, and I agree that it was not
NECESSARY to bring in the Illyes poem. But I fail to see what is so
offensive about it.  Here it is again:

A quote from my previous post about Illyes:
BB> I guess he would be a critic
BB> of the MSZMP-SZDSZ coalition if he were alive today, and would write
BB> "demagoguery" like the "Egy mondat" (One sentence).
[BTW, it should have been MSZP not MSZMP]

By placing the word demagoguery in quote, and in light of the previous
discussion I assumed, that it would be clear that I consider it just as
inappropriate to describe this great poem against the Rakosi dictatura as
demagoguery as it is inappropriate to describe Klara Feher's article
which talks about the plight of people living on inadequate pension.

But your other observation is completely baffles me:

>>I apologize to the other readers of the list for forcing you to read this
>>ugly stuff. I hope you read my posts with a more open mind and saw, that I
>>never made any reference to Eva Balogh's character or political views.
>
>        Please, don't apologize for me. I can take care of my own affairs
>and I will apologize if I feel that an apology is due. If anyone should
>apologize it is you for accusing me of considering Illyes' great
>anti-totalitarian poem demagogic.

I thought I am apologizing for myself, and as far as I know I never accused
you about the Illyes poem. I thought this whole discussion was about the
Klara Fehers' Requiem. May be the fellow who responded to my first
utterances on the internet in 1993 was right, he told me to ask back my
tuition fees.

Barna Bozoki
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  (Andrew
J. Rozsa) writes:

>Zing! Betcha.
>
>P.S. This community service to the max idea of yours.... is it novel?
>
>Bandi
>
>
I think I explained in an earlier post that I got it from the history of
Leopold and Loeb. One of them was stabbed to death in prison, the other
moved to Puerto Rico as a medical missionary nurse after completing his
sentence and spent the rest of his life working with the poor.

In order to provoke Joe Szalai into another hissy fit, I should point out
that I'm an advocate of the death penalty.
Sam Stowe

"You can sum up the entire history of the
Confederacy in one sentence -- 'Good
defense; couldn't win on the road'..."
-- Joe Queenan
+ - Re: the nasty Orban (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:21 PM 11/14/96 +0100, Gyorgy Kadar wrote:

>        In essentially non-marxist Hungary some minority convinced itself
>to be marxists in the fifties, then betrayed the 56 Revolution and
>Independence War, took part in the slaughter of Hungarian non-marxists and
>even marxists and served their selected Master, the Russian Big Brother.

        God saves us from "historians" like Gyorgy Kadar. A couple of
important ingredients are missing here: (1) the occupation of Hungary by the
Soviet Union in 1944-45; (2) most of the Hungarian marxists came from the
Soviet Union and established the Magyar Kommunista Part; (3) There were
relatively few home-grown Marxists, but the MKP, thanks to people who sensed
that the future belongs to the communists, joined the MKP in hordes. A few
figures: by February 1945 the MKP had 30,000 members, by May 150,000
members, and by October there were half a million communist party members;
(4) the Hungarian communist party--then named Magyar Dolgozok
Partja--completely collapsed in October 1956; (5) Yes, a small group of
communists headed by Janos Kadar opted for the restoration of the regime
under Soviet tutelage. (6) The "non-Marxist" Hungarian people again joined
the communist party in hordes: by December 1956 the new party named Magyar
Szocialista Munkaspart (MSZMP) had 37,818 members, by January-February 1957
between eight and ten thousand people joined every week and reached 190
thousand, by June their numbers reached 345,733, and by the end of the
regime there were 800,000 party members. If the Hungarians were
non-Marxist--and the majority certainly wasn't--then I must conclude that
our kind is an awfully opportunistic lot!

>        Later a smaller minority of them lost illusions and became
>disillusioned marxists. Under the umbrella of their comrades
>(and fathers and godfathers [who knows the godson of Janos Kadar?])
>the disillusioned marxists organized the "democratic opposition", and
>acting obviously against the establishment attracted many non-marxists too
>(including e.g. myself until 1988, or the "nasty Orban" until 1994).

        This is so insidious that it is hard to comment on it. So, in you
opinion, the so-called "democratic opposition" was nothing but a farce. In
fact, they worked under the protection of the Kadar regime. Perhaps they
were organized by the authorities. Could you explain why a regime would
organize its own opposition?

>        Those, who have eyes, can see it, those who have ears, can hear
>it. Are we all nasty?

        I'm afraid anyone who gives a synopsis of the last fifty years of
Hungarian history as you did may not be "nasty" but surely is either
ignorant or purposely distorts history.

>        God be with us all...           kadargyorgy

        And and someone already said on one of the lists, please cut out the
"God be with us all" crap! Calling the name of God to your notes is a sacrilege
!

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: poem - please pass it on (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Greetings: / \dvvzletem!

May I obtain the permission from the author to post this poem on my
web site? I'd welcome poems from anybody, and poems of any nature in
both  English and Hungarian and I will post them on one of my "poems"
files on my www home page. (I already have there mine and mom's
poems):

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/2707/versek.htm

Thank you in advance for any contribution. You may send your poems to:


  or 

Attila


"S. Bihari" > wrote:

>If we can save just one single life, it will be worth it.

>Thanks!
>Martha

>------------------------------------------------------------

>From the Author: Please, forward this to as many people as you can.
>And see if we can get a chain going around the world that will make people
>understand that drinking and driving don't mix.
>TOGETHER WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE, so please forward this letter.

>-----------------------------------------

>                       DEATH OF INNOCENT

>I went to a party, Mom, I remembered what you said.
>You told me not to drink, Mom, so I drank soda instead.
>I really felt proud inside, Mom, the way you said I would.
>I didn't drink and drive, Mom, even though the others said I should.

>I know I did the right thing, Mom, I know you are always right.
>Now the party is finally ending, Mom, as everyone is driving out of
>sight.
>As I got into my car, Mom, I knew I'd get home in one piece.
>Because of the way you raised me, so responsible and sweet.

>I started to drive away, Mom, but as I pulled out into the road,
>the other car didn't see me, Mom, and hit me like a load.
>As I lay there on the pavement, Mom, I hear the policeman say,
>the other guy is drunk, Mom, and now I'm the one who will pay.

>I'm lying here dying, Mom. I wish you'd get here soon.
>How could this happen to me, Mom? My life just burst like a balloon.
>There is blood all around me, Mom, and most of it is mine.
>I hear the medic say, Mom, I'll die in short time.

>I just wanted to tell you, Mom, I swear i didn't drink.
>It was the others, Mom. The others didn't think.
>He was probably at the same party as I.
>The only difference is, he drank and I will die.

>Why do people drink, Mom? It can ruin your whole life.
>I'm feeling sharp pains now. Pains just like a knife.
>The guy who hit me is walking, Mom, and I don't think it's fair.
>I'm lying here dying and all he can do is stare.

>Tell my brother not to cry, Mom. Tell Daddy to be brave.
>And when I go to heaven, Mom, put "Daddy's Girl" on my grave.
>Someone should have told him, Mom, not to drink and drive.
>If only they had told him, Mom, I would still be alive.

>My breath is getting shorter, Mom. I'm becoming very scared.
>Please don't cry for me, Mom. When I needed you, you were always there.
>I have one last question, Mom, before I say good bye:
>I didn't drink and drive, so why am I the one to die?

>_______________________________________
+ - Intellectual elite and the government (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

While I am mad enough let me tell you about an interview I read
yesterday in *168 ora (November 5, 1996, pp. 8-10). Background as follows.
As it stands right now people who earn money outside of their jobs and
receive "honoraria," be that consulting fee, royalties, freelancers' fee for
newspaper articles, and so on and so forth don't pay social security/medical
insurance on monies received as honoraria. Every Hungarian pays
"tarsadalombiztositas" (tb) and "szemelyi jovedelmi ado" (szja). The first
is social security/medical insurance and the second is income tax. There is
no property taxes but very high value added tax practially on everything one
purchases. The amount of these two kinds of taxes is a rather hefty 60-70
percent of one's paycheck. But the "intellectual elite" doesn't pay tb on
most of their incomes. As far as I can see, every so-called "freelancer" has
one steady job and at the same time they have part-time jobs or assignments.
Most of their incomes come from the latter.

        The first finance minister who tried to take this "intellectual
privilege" away was Lajos Bokros and we know what happened to him! The
journalists whose income comes mostly from such "honoraria" screamed bloody
murder and their hatred of Bokros, I think, was partly due to his plan to
tax the "honorarium" payments.  Eventually, even the constitutional court
found it unconstitutional. Now we have a new finance minister who is
certainly a more personable fellow, but even he thinks that this isn't fair
and is trying to repackage the taxation of honoraria in order to meet the
approval of the contitutional court. We are talking about a lot of money.
According to the Hungarian equivalent of the internal revenue service the
Hungarian intellectual elite receives 60-70 billion forints' worth of
"honorarium." That is quite a bit of money--around 5-6 billion dollars.
Screeming and howlering began again. The interview I read is a classic
example of a journalistic situation when the interviewer and the interviewed
feel exactly the same way about the topic on hand and the interviewer (Agnes
Szechenyi) is practically supplying the answers to Andras Brody, an
economist. Agnes Szechenyi is asking, not so innocently, whether perhaps
there is some hidden agenda of the government in doing such a dastardly deed
as demanding social security payments on income. Oh, yes, says Andras Brody,
the politicians and the government are mad at the writers, artists,
researchers because they are critical of the government. "The government no
longer simply cuts out undesired articles from the papers [as during the
dictatorship], but rather it sentences the intellectual elite to economic
silence in order to make them see the light and give up their critical stance."

        The interview goes on for three fairly large pages in which Andras
Brody further explains that the tb payments on income doesn't just hurt the
intellectuals but hurts the whole country. Brody then tells his opinion of
the employees of the Finance Ministry who simply don't know "Hungarian
society, its sociological structure, its historical causes, and its
tendency. And they are not even interested in it!"

        When Agnes Szechenyi mentions that perhaps the intellectual elite
received certain privileges in the Kadar regime in order to gain its
cooperation and now this same elite is simply defending its own position,
Andras Brody emphatically says that this isn't the case. There was never any
privileged position in the Kadar regime for this elite but it is natural
that the intelligentsia raises its voice when he sees that wrong decisions
are reached. And adds, "Isn't it so that we learned about the plight of the
pensioners from the journalists and the scientific institutions. The
intelligentsia also has the right to stand up for its own rights."

        And finally, Brody says a few words about those politicians who,
although they might be university graduates, are not really intellectuals.
Sure, they finished university but they were not good enough to be real
intellectuals. And now, there is "war." The intellectuals are not going to
help the politicians and therefore the coalition parties are finished
because without the intellectual elite the politicians can't have a dialogue
with the population. In Hungary it was always the intellectual elite which
had the role of mediator.

        End of article. I don't know how other people feel about this
incredible piece but I am outraged. The intellectual elite which seems to be
so concerned about the plight of the pensioners--and in fact, the
intellectuals were the ones who called the public's attention to their
problems--refuse to carry their share of the common burden. When the
government is struggling to make ends meet, when the hospitals are in dire
need of basic supplies; when school teachers are losing their jobs, and,
yes, when pensioners have lost 25 percent of the purchasing power of their
pensions, the intellectual elite which, I am sure, is still doing relatively
well, refuses to be treated as the rest of society. That is bad enough but
to claim that this is a purposeful political ploy to silence the conscience
of the nation and to declare a virtual war on the government (doesn't matter
what kind of government we are talking about) is beyond description.

        I think that this interview might shed additional light on the
problems of the pensioners whose plight had been so well demonstrated by our
unselfish journalists and the intellectual elite in general.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Well, Johanne now you are enlightened by Zoli Szekely:


>The answer is so easy, Johanna, that you may be surprised
>to learn it: Joe and Sam has a special mission here on
>this list as far as Hungary and its "general impression"
>(as Eva Balogh uses this expression) in the minds of the
>people of the United States is concerned.

        Don't you see: they have been planted on this list to accomplish a
special mission! Yes, yes! And they are not the only ones planted. I'm sure
I have been planted too, but for the life of me I don't know who planted me!

        This is how the Hungarian right's mind works: conspiracy,
conspiracy, conspiracy!! The meager opposition to the Kadar regime was, of
course, also planted--by the government itself. And now in the form of the
SZDSZ they joined the forces of evil in order to ruin the Hungarian people!
And, of course, Joe and Sam have been planted too. You didn't get it until
now? But it is obvious: we all have been planted in order to discredit
patriotic Hungarians like Zoli Szekely and Janos Zsargo. A cosmopolitan
conspiracy against the nation.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Did you hear about the Tocsik affair? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

If this subject was not discussed yet, I happily would discuss opinions and
facts about it. I think this affair bears the character of the new Hungary.

George E. Kantor
+ - Re: To everybody (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:07 PM 11/14/96 GMT, Sam Stowe, while cooing to Andrew J. Rozsa, wrote:

<snip>
>In order to provoke Joe Szalai into another hissy fit, I should point out
>that I'm an advocate of the death penalty.

Yeah, so am I.  And I hope you're not one of those squeamish little liberals
who favour the death penalty but, for whatever silly reason, want the act to
be neat, sanitized and accepted.  Sorry, but a painless lethal injection or
a quiet electrical surge just isn't punishment.  That's what's done to
chickens and pigs so that they can end up in cellophaned packages at the
grocery store.  No, the death penalty should be a celebration!  It should be
an event the whole family can value and enjoy.  Dismemberment, burning,
drowning, gassing, starving, hanging, crucifying, poisoning, beheading, and
anything else we can think of, including a subscription to the HUNGARY list
and the compulsory reading of every post by Peter Soltesz and Zoltan Szekely
can, and should, be used.  It should always be a fun spectacle.

Joe Szalai

"Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!"
           Friedrich Nietzsche
+ - Re: the nasty Orban (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:21 PM 11/14/96 +0100, Gyorgy Kadar wrote something called csusztatas
in Hungarian, I am not sure what the correct english expression is for it.
He says:

>        In essentially non-marxist Hungary some minority convinced itself
>to be marxists in the fifties, then betrayed the 56 Revolution and
>Independence War, took part in the slaughter of Hungarian non-marxists and
>even marxists and served their selected Master, the Russian Big Brother.
>        Later a smaller minority of them lost illusions and became
>disillusioned marxists. Under the umbrella of their comrades
>(and fathers and godfathers [who knows the godson of Janos Kadar?])
>the disillusioned marxists organized the "democratic opposition", and
>acting obviously against the establishment attracted many non-marxists too
>(including e.g. myself until 1988, or the "nasty Orban" until 1994).

What I read here is (and please, Gyorgy, tell me if I am wrong), that SZDSZ
founders were originally active participants in the anti-revolutionary
activities in 1956 and then took part in the revenge after it. My
understanding is that this was not true. TGM, one of the founders of the
SZDSZ was about 7 years old in 1956 (and lived in Romania), some of the
others were his age, some others were revolutionaries, tried and convicted
by the Kadar regime. Maybe there were some who fit the above ugly picture,
but it has to be a very small minority.

And what is wrong with disillusioned marxists joining the opposition? What
were they supposed to do? Hang themselves?

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Romanok igen, Magyarok nem szavazhatnak (HAL: Valas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Janka; Eva B., and Charlie:

I've had some troubles with "sympatico" ... again... thus I lost your
individual replies some days ago with reference to this topic.  As such, I'm
going from memory with what my mind retained as being significant regarding
your replies.  Taking a line from Jelico ... "all rocks are welcome" ....
well, maybe?

Janka first - since you were the first to respond

A couple of things ... you are a dual citizen by choice.  Many Hungarians
whom are not non-residents are not so.  Also, in doing some checking with
voting-rites of Canadian/Americans - it appears that it's not as simple as
you claim.  Perhaps my sources are not that accurate but of the four dual
citizens along with the US embassy; at least they are consistant.  Just of
it all appears to be, that unless you are filing income tax returns
annually, you are not eligible to vote in the US, while residing in Canada -
regardless of your dual citizenship.  Also, the explanations seemed rather
cumbersome; providing, that you file an income tax return, you must first
pre-register, on one given day, in the the exact state/place you voted in
last; prior to becoming a non-resident, failing which, the process becomes
confusing and restricting -  for me to explain eh? - neither is it really
the point.  In short, what was apparently made to look like a simple task;
and a god-given right, proved to be not that simple at all, once looking
into it.   More simple, remains that of the present Hungarian voting law
even with it's obvious inadequacies.

Secondly - I recall you asking if I am a dual citizen, and, answering your
own question, that perhaps my financial advantages allow me exercising my
voting right" -  First of all; If you'd read previous posts by me, you would
have gathered that yes, indeed I am a dual citizen; extremely elated too
about it.  Secondly, I would thank you not to answer on by behalf -
especially if taking my financial status into the picture is required in
order to make your point?  Which by the way, I highly resent you bringing
into any discussion, period.  That at least, along with my sex life, remain
quite sacred thank you very much.

To repeat myself; I simply said to Charlie, that, as it is right now, the
Hungarian law allows anyone present to vote; so long as they hold a
citizenship, dual or otherwise.  I also indicated that at the very least, it
gave their citizens(by choice)  a choice.  Any citizen fitting those realms,
feeling so strongly about voting, are given an opportunity ... I even
mentioned that, sacrifices are indeed required based on the present legal
structure - but that choices have not been eliminated.  Nor, do I consider
that their temporarily out of country citizens are prevented from voting so
by way of that same law is just.  That's all.  None of what I wrote, related
to me personally - least of all, to my financial ad/disadvantages.  As such,
I would appreciate that it be kept in that exact context.

Eva B:

You, as I recall, was the second to reply, not to my post, but rather to
that of Janka's.

While I appreciate also, where you are coming from, in your post, you made
the grave assumption that *all* non resident Hungarians have the same access
to internet provided knowledge, research know how, desires, along with
abilities to any/all as above as does yourself.  I beg to disagree.  In
fact, I would bet on the fact that most Hungarians, residing in America, (or
Canada for that matter) have their plates full just following local politics
and the choices to be made . let alone that of Hungary's.  In additon, I
would bet, that a rather small percentage of these non-residents even own,
desire to, or possess the knowledge of computers with which to access such
knowledge.

In short ... I agree, that the people hooked into this group; or any other
would fit your explanations.... but how many others, who are not, could be
given a right to vote on behalf of a country that they a) may know nothing
about for the last decade, or simply don't even care to know about?
Idealistic?  I rather see it as realistic ..

Charlie:

Although you cut your answer to my first "disagree" ... at least, I hope
that you read the rest.  I gave it alot of thought, before committing to
typing effort.  If so, I agree, to disagree.  If not, do me a favour at
least and go back and read all?  Regardless of either, still maintain, that
you do have choices.  Don't like it?  Don't just complain.  Go and do
something about it .... where it most counts ... this is a good place to
vent off,  but it is not the place, where you or anyone else will ever make
a difference.

ok guys .... let the rocks fly .... as Jeliko would say.

Best regards and "jo ejszakat" to one and all
Aniko
+ - Re: Did you hear about the Tocsik affair? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George E. Kantor > wrote in article
>...
> If this subject was not discussed yet, I happily would discuss opinions
and
> facts about it. I think this affair bears the character of the new
Hungary.
>
> George E. Kantor
>
+ - Re: the nasty Orban (1) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Lectoris Salutem!
        Eva Balogh writes:
"I assume that according to Magda [Zimanyi] there has never been any
difference between the two." [the two governing Hungarian coalition
parties MSzP and SzDSz, that is]
        Here is the perpetual problem: the assumptions of Eva Balogh. When
she remains with facts, she might be even informative sometimes.
        But alas, she usually reads with prejudices and makes assumptions
about the meaning of the texts she reads...
        Magda Zimanyi demonstrated many times not only in this list her
rigorous discipline when making minute but important differences in
"really carried away" discussions.
        Magda Zimanyi is certainly   n o t   "my [Eva Balogh's] match"...

        God be with us all...           kadargyorgy
+ - Re: the nasty Orban (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Lectoris Salutem!

        The nasty Orban said months ago about MSzP (Hungarian Socialist
Party) and SzDSz (Alliance of Liberal Democrats):
"...things, that belong to each other, organically joined each other..."
vagyis "...osszenottek, amik egymashoz tartoznak..."
        In essentially non-marxist Hungary some minority convinced itself
to be marxists in the fifties, then betrayed the 56 Revolution and
Independence War, took part in the slaughter of Hungarian non-marxists and
even marxists and served their selected Master, the Russian Big Brother.
        Later a smaller minority of them lost illusions and became
disillusioned marxists. Under the umbrella of their comrades
(and fathers and godfathers [who knows the godson of Janos Kadar?])
the disillusioned marxists organized the "democratic opposition", and
acting obviously against the establishment attracted many non-marxists too
(including e.g. myself until 1988, or the "nasty Orban" until 1994).
        In the meantime the majority of Hungary before 1989 suffered and
survived marxism. Then parties were formed. The number of voters of any
party of any ideological background may vary from time to time from place
to place. Incidentally, after four years of a non-marxist but very
unskilled, untimely gentleman-like, governing coalition, in 1994 the
convinced marxists (MSzP) and the disillusioned marxists (SzDSz) had again
a chance to govern together in Hungary. It turned out in two years that
they belong to each other, and they are united, organically joined, and
are forming the ruling and stealing kleptocracy of our little,
wooden-towered homeland.
        Those, who have eyes, can see it, those who have ears, can hear
it. Are we all nasty?
        God be with us all...           kadargyorgy

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