Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 565
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-01-30
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Anyone know Victoria Tamas? (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Doctoral titles, degrees and prestige in Central Eu (mind)  137 sor     (cikkei)
3 HORN-SOROS Meeting (mind)  101 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Good vs. better (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Who knows something about Genealogy in Hungary /Slo (mind)  66 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Feminism in Hungary/general (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Feminism in Hungary/general (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Anti-feminist bias or not? (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Misc comments and questions (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
10 HUNGARY girls and ladies or smoking in the boys room . (mind)  50 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Questions about Hungary (mind)  66 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Good vs. better (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Bitchy? (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Horn - Soros Meeting (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Introduction and Feminist Issues (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
16 Hungarian language lesson from Sandor Kristyan (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Dr. Dr. K.S.'s B.S. (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
18 HUNGARY "girls" (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
19 HUNGARY Joe : (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
20 -No Subject- (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Good vs. better (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Anyone know Victoria Tamas? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Alex:

At 08:59 PM 1/28/96 GMT, you wrote:
>B"H Luzern
>
>Victoria is a friend from Budapest, and I'd be grateful if anyone
>can help me find her email address. She's an American who works
>with the American government in connection with the Hungarians.
>
>Many thanks,
>
>Alex Jacobowitz
>
>
If all else fails, you might find her by sending a fax to Ms. Teresita
Schaffer, Director of the Foreign Service Institute at
fax: 703-302-7461

For a letter, the address is:

Ms. Teresita Schaffer, Director
Foreign Service Institute, Suite F2102
4000 Arlington Blvd.
Arlington, VA  22204-1500

Good luck!

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
3273B Rocky Water Lane
San Jose, CA, USA  95148
tel.&fax: 408-223-6102
e-mail: 

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA
+ - Re: Doctoral titles, degrees and prestige in Central Eu (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:40 AM 1/28/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Dear Mrs. Fa'bos-Becker:
>Thanks for taking the time, as usual, to provide a detailed response to my
>post. I wish you had taken a little more time to address the specific
>concerns I raised. I have also read many of the authors you mentioned.
>Even a cursory reading of the relevant works of Hackett Fischer will not
>support your contention that there is somehow a cultural split between
>Southerners of Celtic descent and Southerners of Anglo-Saxon descent.

It's not how much of a "cultural split" there actually is, but what the
perceptions of the "borderers" are, or what _they_ think there is.  That's
what they live by, _their beliefs_ not ours.  I also think a cursory reading
of Hackett Fischer's book is not enough.  I read it cover to cover, and
still find myself re-reading it, because of the overwhelming detail.

>
>Nor does Barbara Tuchmann's scholarship on the origins of American
>involvement in the First World War conclude that the U.S. was drawn into
>the war by British machinations. (Thanks to the Hungary reader who wrote
>to remind me of the impact that Germany's resumption of unrestricted
>submarine warfare in 1917 had on many members of Congress who had, until
>then, been very reluctant to involve the U.S. directly in the war.)

You still didn't address Professor Carroll Quigley's book, Professors Clough
and Colefield's book, nor the much more recent book by Oxford scholar
Wilfred Fiest that specifically noted that not all the English government
records related to World War I and its prelude have yet been released.

Then there's the matter of the French documents found by the Mitterand
government in 1988.  When I asked the French consul in San Francisco,
Jacques Coquillat about them, in 1990, he confirmed what I had heard.  They
indeed, detailed French government involvement in the arrangement of the
assasination of Archduke Ferdinand, including French government payment for
it, and there were indeed telegrams sent to the Triple Alliance forces which
directed them to mobilize first, and there were replies confirming that had
been done.  The Russian forces, for just one instance,  had mobilized and
were already moving toward Austria-Hungary, _24 Hours_ before Franz Josef
sent his famous Serbian rejection telegram out...  The reports of
Mitterand's formal apology to both Austria and Hungary for "wrongfully
blaming them for the initiation of World War I" were also in a number of
European newspapers, and even a small paragraph appeared in the "San Jose
Mercury News"--buried in the lesser read sections.

Now, if Wilfred Fiest can say that all the records, and whole story is not
yet told in 1978, and the French can uncover documents that rather change
the picture even more in 1988, you are free to continue to think this is
just an "amusing polemic argument," but perhaps both of us should watch
carefully for additional new information and have another look at old
sources to reconsider just how well they could have told the story, either
partly or in total.  The late Professor George Lerski also had some
interesting things to say about this period--and he was a personal friend of
George VI--until the English betrayed the Poles for a second time, as he put
it at the end of World War II.  He spoke about his experiences to a number
of people in the Polish community. I'm sure there are still some of them
about who can add to your education, if you are willing to extend it.

>
>My original conclusion about your post stands. It is amusing polemic,
>particularly for those readers who may, for whatever reason, harbor a
>dislike for England and the English. But I do not think it wise for anyone
>to take it seriously as a work of critical scholarship. I do not fault it,
>however, as an honest expression of your personal opinion.

See above paragraph re: "amusing polemic."
Well, I thank you for the respect of my honesty at least.
I also thank you for another inspiration for what to do with some money when
my husband's latest start-up company ever goes public.  Somehow, I'm going
to get _all_ the rest of those dratted records released and offer a
scholarship of whatever it takes to get a _thorough_ professional
review--and if valid, a complete rewrite of World War I.  I also darned well
will publish all my grandfather's records about the reformers and who their
"so-called friends" were in the U.S. and England and their betrayal, and
I'll publish whatever names my grandfather gave in the documents.  They're,
there, I know it.  My cousins and I saw them briefly twice, we'll find them
again. Grandfahter, and his late attorney, said they were damning and
dangerous, that's why they kept moving the documents around so much.  Some
of the people involved lived a long time and were very powerful.  It may
take three or four years, Sam, but there will be a thorough review.

Just one question, what institution, and what professor(s) in it do you
think is the most credible in the world that no one, and I do mean no one,
could refute--that is besides yourself?  Hmmm?  I'm dead serious on this
one, Sam. I already have a standing offer of $25,000 to SJSU for another
project, and that's already been long set aside, but some professors there
and I agreed to wait until I can add a bit more to that to really kick off
the program we want and make a big enough media splash to attract other
donors to it.  I've also been giving a few hundred dollars every year for
the last couple of years to the University of Minnesota.  So come on, Sam,
who will you believe, besides yourself?  I really would like to put this
issue to rest permanently in a very professional way, and am willing to
spend quite a bit to do it.  But yes, I want a review of _all_ the materials
possible; government records, personal diaries, primary-source interviews,
telegrams, correspondence, _everything_.  If things continue as they are
going, I also might have the political muscle to get some of those still
classified and unreleased records released in a bit over a year, too.
Stay tuned!  I'm very stubborn and creative. If I can't find a door, a
window will do, and if not a window, well, I'm getting better and better at
widening cracks in walls.  It just takes time.



>P.S. -- From reading your many posts, I can only imagine that someone with
>your energy and optimistic outlook on life would not let a bum knee slow
>them down in the least bit. I hope you are back on your feet as soon as
>possible.
>
Thanks for those kind thoughts, too.  Surgery is Friday--then I'm really out
of my head for 5-7 days afterward, they tell me.  If I'm foolish enough to
try to get to the computer then, please, please do honestly enjoy the folly.
You're right, though, I'm an absolutely terrible patient.  Years ago, I had
one doctor actually call my husband to make sure I was in bed for as long as
he directed.  I still managed to escape the bedroom sooner.  However, I did
learn one thing.  It really is a lousy idea to try to continue taking 18
credits or so during winter quarter in Minnesota with both a case of
mononucleosis and recurring bronchitis and strept throat.  I fell asleep
during critical parts of at least two classes, including exams, and had to
reread the dullest books ever written later--and more of them.  My husband
had the better idea when he was similarly affected.  He simply took the
quarter off.  So, I've agreed to stay put now for at least the absolute bare
minimum of what the doctors say.

However, I will still be able to read, so I am relying on you all to send me
every side-splitting new item, or thought, you spot or can otherwise create.
They say laughter is the best medicine.  Shall we try it on a torn lateral
miniscus and associated ligament?  Who knows we might be able to whittle the
bare minimum on the pharmaceutical pain killers to 3 days or less!

Thanks again.


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
3273B Rocky Water Lane
San Jose, CA, USA  95148
tel.& fax: 408-223-6102
e-mail:

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA
+ - HORN-SOROS Meeting (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thanks guys for the information on Sarlos!  Now I can add a little to that.
That's probably the Canadian group that Laszlo said he was working through
most lately, after he couldn't get anywhere with the SUPRA fund.  I didn't
ask him who, by name, they were because on this end I just work with him and
Mike Kovic, but your info dovetails nicely with what Laszlo described.  I've
been mostly just referring some companies looking for East Central European
partners to them. It didn't seem necessary for me to learn who the Canadians
were; I'm not the interface with them, anyway.

I've been financially mostly focused on trying to get my husband's company
positioned to go public in about a  year--a lot of work when you start out
with a group of very individual engineers that often resemble "Peter Pan and
the Lost Boys."   We've given the company essentially an overhaul since we
became a major owner and it's been a lot of hard work.

For those of you in the group who want a low-stress, steady, predictable
income and raises job, start-up companies aren't it.  This is the second,
and if I have my way on this issue, it's going to be the last.  Life's too
short as it is.

Anyhow, I'll be calling Laszlo to see if I can find out more Monday,
a.m.--assuming he didn't get snowed in up by Angel's Camp.

By the way, IC foundries cost between $500 million and $1 billion to build,
almost anywhere.  Renovation of anything that's over 10 years behind costs
almost as much as a new foundry.  A new foundry, or nearly new one, is what
my husband needs in Hungary to be able to manufacture his products there,
because we design and build components--IC's.  So far, we've been unable to
find the type of foundry his products need there.  The wafers don't have to
be 8" or anything like that, but the products use E-PROM or CMOS and
multi-layered ceramic substrates whose processes are so new they have
already bankrupted one New Hampshire foundry and nearly sank two more in
southern California before they got the processes down solid.  Our IC's are
also some of the smallest in the world for their respective products.

I'm truly glad the Canadian companies are willing to do what so many U.S.
ones weren't.  That was getting to be very frustrating.  I do know that
management training programs are a part of the Canadian deals, and that's
good too.  I think there's a lot of good going on between the foreign banks
and the Canadians.  Let's hope some more good comes out of the meeting.

I think the Hungarians need much more though.  Even $130 million doesn't get
that much.  Labor is only part of the picture.  Facilities and tooling are
still expensive and most of the highest tolerance tooling still comes from
the expensive West or Japan.  Please let me give you an example.

My husband's company right now has had about a million dollars in overall
investment. That's bought 15 employees, some computers, lots of software,
printers, plotters, photocopiers, phone system,network system, a couple of
work stations, some printers and four IC-probe testers.  Three were bought
used and we've spent a lot of time updating and reprogramming them.  Even
used, you're looking at thousands of dollars for each.  It's also paid for
several experimental wafer runs, etc..  Nobody gives you wafer runs for
free, unfortunately.  A million dollars, very carefully spent, and it pays
for salaries and a moderate level of equipment for as yet only 15 employees.
Do you see?  Even $130 million is likely to only employ about 3,500-4,000
well-equipped workers if they intend to produce "world-class products for
export to the West."  Hungary needs to be able to employ much more than that.

I know that the Canadians aren't the only investors, but from what I saw in
Hungary in late 1993, a lot more is still needed, billions.  We still need
to somehow bring in more from the U.S. and maybe Taiwan and Hong Kong
(although I think most of the last has already been moved to Australia,
Canada and the U.S.)

We also need to get some people expending some serious efforts talking to
the "international/global/foreign" mutual fund managers.  Now there's a real
pile of money!  Any volunteers?  I've got some manager, fund and "family"
names I can give you for the better ones, and addresses and such, if you
want to try.  But to be effective, someone, better yet several
together--"popular pressure," need(s) to be focused on this.  It's going to
take in-person follow up, not just letters.  Most of the fund managers are
_not_ in California, but on the East Coast and some mid-country.

By the way, this is another good place to put just a few hundred dollars or
so--and use it for leverage to get investments into Hungary.  It can be done
similar to political bundling.  Get a bunch of people together to send in
investments simultaneously all accompanied by notes saying you want the
money invested in Hungary.  By law, they have to try to comply--it's your
money, not theirs.  While yours may not be very much together, it forces the
fund manager to consider Hungary for the fund as a whole.  Most of the best
international funds are _billions of dollars_.  Get a couple of those
solidly in Hungary, and you've got foundries money, etc.--the Silicon Puszta
or something.

When this latest start-up of ours goes public, I have some ideas about using
some of the gains to "leverage" some more for Hungary for high-tech
companies, too.  I may not be able to build a whole foundry, but I think
I'll be in a much better position to convince a few someones else to do a
few.  I'm stubborn on this issue, too.  Now if I can just make a big enough
"2x4" for some of these guys...

Sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA



N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA
+ - Re: Good vs. better (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Andras;

At 02:31 AM 1/28/96 -0800, you wrote:

>> My impression was, that in the prehistoric tribal society
>> matriarchy was the general setup.
>This, known in Marxist parlance as "o3skommunizmus", is pure hogwash.
>Very few tribal societies show matriarchy, and only under very
>peculiar conditions. What tribal societies show in abundance is
>jelaously guarded private property, many forms of barter (including
>the barter of women, I'm afraid to say) and even the emergence of
>money.

In Africa, and most of Oceania, yes, but not in so much in the Americas.
They were mostly "tribal" societies too.

 Marx can perhaps be forgiven for selective reading of the
>evidence in an age when solid anthropological information was hard to
>come by. But for you to repeat it unquestioningly 150 years later is
>not right.
>
>> When private property appeared, the inheritors of it had to be
>> identified, also men had bigger role in gaining it through fighting.
>> Private property is the main reason,
>So what is it with the great apes, do they also have property?
>
>> attitudes of thousands of years built on societies based on private
>> property are the others.
>Without respect for property rights there can't be a general respect
>for the rights of the individual. Such societes (if the name "society"
>is merited by places where the stronger gang takes whatever it pleases
>from those weaker) guarantee that women's rights (which I actually
>don't see as any different from men's rights) will not be respected.

Again, yes, that is often the case, but not always.  Again, consider many of
the American tribes who did not believe in private property--this was how
they got into so much trouble with the Europeans, yet had "caucus"
government and councils of "chiefs"--who were both men and women.  One of
the greatest war-chiefs of the Iroquois in the 1700's was a nearly six foot
tall woman--and she wasn't the first.  In the case of the native Americans,
individual "intellectual" accomplishments/contributions, and the quality of
the performance of specialized services, such as hunting, healing, etc.,
also mattered.

Also, the Celts started out as matriarchical--that was one of the things the
Romans complained about.
>
Respectfully,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA
+ - Re: Who knows something about Genealogy in Hungary /Slo (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

"Andrew M. Gombos, Jr." > wrote:

>>Hi,
>>
>>I have a hungarian name.
>>
>>My family left Hungary about 1805 - 1810
>>They lived near the Tatra Moutains
>>Townname in hungarian:    Strba    / perhaps Csorba
>>(Now Slovakia, but before 1919/1920 Hungarian Territory
>>
>>Who knows something about Genealogy in Hungary
>>/Slovakia (former Hungarian Territory.)
>>
>>Or something about my name: Madarasz
>>
>>Or about the town Strba
>>
>>
>>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.hungary
>>Subject: Who knows something about Genealogy in Hungary /Slovakia
>>(former Hung.) about my name: Madarasz
>>Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 05:35:39 GMT
>>X-Attachment:
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I have a hungarian name.
>>
>>My family left Hungary about 1805 - 1810
>>
>>They lived near the Tatra Moutains
>>Townname in hungarian:    Strba    / perhaps Csorba
>>(Now Slovakia, but before 1919/1920 Hungarian Territory)
>>
>>Who knows something about Genealogy in Hungary
>>/Slovakia (former Hungarian Territory.)
>>
>>-Or something about my name: Madarasz
>>What does it mean?
>>Are there many people with this name?
>>
>>-Or about the town Strba
>>
>>
>>Greetings from Amsterdam,
>>
>>Louis S. Madarasz
>>

>>
>>I know something about geneology in Hungary. My e-mail is

>The root of your name, madar, means bird, not sure of the ending, probably
>means something like "full of birds" or "rich in birds"


Actually, your name is probably closer to the English equivalent of
Birder; someone who tended the game birds  as well as the hunting
Falcons and Hawks on an estate.  My wife, who is of British
extraction, had the maiden name of Bird, which also has that as a
root.  Apparently it was quite a sought after occupation. My surname
on the other hand comes from the former Moravia and means Magpie.In
Hungarian it would be Szarka and in Moravian it would be Straka.

Frank
+ - Re: Feminism in Hungary/general (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva S. Balogh ) wrote:
: At 06:55 PM 1/24/96 -0500, you wrote:
:
: >>It is interesting that you think I would say that I had no trouble in being
: >>a woman, like Maggie Thatcher.  I am not a Maggie Thatcher, although I
: >>admire her tremendously for her gumption and willingness to be forthright,
: >>a rare commodity in politicians.
: >
: Joe Szalai's answer:
: >Hitler had it too.  I see this as an all too common, yet dangerous argument.
: >Right wing politicians are having a field day dismantling social safety nets
: >that were developed during this century.  And they're getting away with it
: >because many people hold gumption and forthrightness to be more important
: >than social programmes.
:
: Oh, for Pete's sake. To compare Margaret Thatcher to Hitler? Don't you think
: that you are overdoing it a bit? Hitler's sin wasn't exactly the
: "dismantling social safety nets that were developed during this century." I
: suggest that you do a little more reading on the subject.
:

correct me if my grasp of english is correct, but the previous
poster asserted that hitler had the "gumption and willingness to
be forthright, a rare commodity in politicians", a trait of margaret
thatcher's admired by an earlier poster.

here the comparison of thatcher and hitler is indeed apt, for both
did follow in government the programmes they promulgated before
ascending to power.

i could discern no manetion of sin in the previous poster's comtribution,
and certainly the tense of the verb in the sentence concerning
current right-wing politicians preclude the said corporal from
braunau, for, as far as i know, he has been dead for over half a century.
if you have any doubts about my reading of the text, i suggest
you do a lot more reading about english grammar and syntax. if you
doubt that a. hitler has been dead for over fifty years, i suggest
you do a little more reading on the subject.

d.a.
as far as the rest of
:
: Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Feminism in Hungary/general (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 20:50 28/01/96 GMT, dunfords wrote:
>Eva Durant > wrote:
>>>
>>> Also partially as a result of my observations of the government here in
>>> Canada and the United States, I have a rather jaundiced view that when the
>>> government tries to solve a perceived problem by means of sweeping
>>> government legislation, the end result are new injustices which cry out for
>>> new solutions and so on and so on.  It is part of the law of unintended
>>> consequences.  Despite the best of intentions, the measures instituted by
>>> government often have unexpected results and give rise to new opportunities
>>> for abuse.
>>>
>>I agree, burocratic shortcuts, such as enforced positive discrimi-
>>nation doesn't achieve anything but turns people against the ideas
>>advocated,especially if there is no supporting framework of
>>education and funds.

[etc]

I have perused your post carefully (I think) and so help me I can't see
where you added any comments to what had previously been written by Eva
Durant and myself. Was there something you wanted to say?

Helpfully,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: Anti-feminist bias or not? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

(text repeating repeated stuff about totalitarian/burocratic regimes
cut)
>
> Thus you get some of the stunning corrosion in moral orientation we see at
> work in places like Bosnia and Russia. Capitalism didn't numb these folks
> to the differences between right and wrong. Living an outright lie day in
> and day out under Marxism-Leninism, living and knowing it and knowing that
> everyone else around you knew it too, that's what numbed them.
> Sam Stowe

.. and the morals are great everywhere where capitalism is
the economic system. Now, why haven't I noticed this?  Also
(repeat)  totalitarianism (as well as "bad" morals) are well
nurtured on market economy.  Look for alternative. Picture something
new.  A genuinly democratic system.  Even die-hard capitalist admit,
capitalism is not compatible with that and equality/fairness.
Eva Durant
+ - Re: Misc comments and questions (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Any possibility of Transylvania being given
>autonomous status or anything similar?

All in good time, my friend... All in good time.

Pro Libertate!

Dan Rako
+ - HUNGARY girls and ladies or smoking in the boys room . (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>First of all, the word "girl" to describe an adult woman--and most of us on
>this list are between forty and sixty--is degrading.
   So that is the real problem! Well, in Hungarian offices the secretaries,
 coworkers (females of course) are called girls. Independently of their
 ages. They LIKE it, it is polite, very polite.
   To non hungarian readers or for those who left H. long time ago let
 me give a dictionary with some explanation:
 girl = lany
 lady = holgy
 woman=asszony , no"
 madam = asszonyom

 boy = fiu
 young man = ifju
 man = ferfi
 Mr. Sir = uram <---This shows an impact.

   It would be a long story or explanation that the holgy/lady
 has some unpolite tone since it refers some superiority (related
 not to sex but to social status - "u'rno""). I know
 this should be explained in more detail, but I have no time.
 When I was called "Tisztelt uram"/Dear Mr. it was discriminative
 in a bad sense, therafter something was coming, generally a blaiming.
 Compare the difference between "Good day" and "Have a good day"
 Yes, it is right one should not mix Hungarian slangs with US slangs.
   In these days these are changing in Hungary. The "comrade" was
 dropped immediately after 1989, but the "Tisztelt Uram" has some
 problem yet.
    I was told that in Romania e.g. there is no word corresponding
 to Mr., because the word what exists refers rather to "aristocrat" than
 to the Mr. in English. And so on.
    Please do not try to explain me attitudes not existing in practice.
 I have been being called somehow (from Sir to the ...) every day.

    For me no older woman than 18 anyway.

> I am sure that you no
>longer consider yourself a "boy." Well, I no longer consider myself a
    Wrong! There are some things I will never grow up in. Mainly
  because all vicked things come from old people in this world.

>You were told! I wonder by whom! And why? The Szalon happens to be a
  Now you like the Szalon or not ?

>And what on earth does it mean: "If you feel safe in Hungary to talk about
>this." Am I supposed to be afraid of somebody?
  Yes! Not literally, but I bet you would not express your opinion
 about woman in Forum.

                         Dr. Dr. K.S.
+ - Re: Questions about Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I would like to mention a few things that I noticed in Hungary while I was
visiting family this past September:

Question 1:  Obviously homelife in Hungary varies between life in the city
and life in the suburbs.  My family lives mostly in Balatonkenese.  My
teenage cousins wake up around 4 or 5 am to go to school and ride public
transportation to get there.  NO school buses. In the suburbs, families
with telephones is quite rare it seems.  Public phones can be a nuisance
and even those with some command of the Hungarian language should count
themselves lucky to successfully place a call.

I did not rent a car in Hungary, yet I found the public transportation to
be quite sufficient.  Some of the buses they use are like greyhound buses.
 A big step up from the public tranport buses in America.

My mother's sister retired in her early fifties in Hungary and she got her
government pension.  This is unheard of in America where you must be at
least 62 to get any real benefits whatsoever.  She lives in a house by
herself, with a dog, and like most of her neighbors, grows most of her own
fruits and vegetables. Supermarkets are tiny in comparison with the super
huge Acmes that are found in any suburb in America and yet the meals that
were served to me were beyond compare.  The bread had a different taste
and so did the soup.

Balatonkenese is located right on Lake Balaton, and during the summer, has
a large vacationing community.  Many families rent out rooms during the
summer for vacationing tourists from everwhere from Budapest to Austria.

I will stop describing more answers to question number one, however feel
free to be more specific if you would like in reply....

Question number 2:  The culture of Hungary is difficult for me to
describe....as all of my immediate family members are Hungarian and having
gone to Hungary many times,  I become overwhelmed when I try to describe
any one aspect of my culture.  I actually feel that my mother or
grandmother would do better at describing it as they lived in Hungary for
a number of years before they had to leave.  Maybe, like with question
number one, you had a specific question, I would be glad to give any
answer that is correct (as far as I or my family knows)

Question number 3:  When I was in Hungary, I found that people of all ages
went to the local bar/dance club (and every little town had one)  and
enjoyed the latest pop/rock artists.  I brought some tapes with me from PA
and I ended up giving alot of them away to family because they enjoyed
them.  I did quite a bit of shopping and saw in record stores that tapes
and cd's were abundant, but expensive for the most up to date artists.

Question number 4:  As Hungary is the most modern 'eastern block' country
and Budapest is known as the Paris of the east, everything from Benetton
to Christian Dior can be found, its just a matter of the average citizen
being able to afford it.  My aunt has complained to me many times of how
bad the inflation is and how the pay is not rising just as quickly... I
found that when I went shoe shopping, it was just a matter of which store
you went into. I purchased a pair of shoes(imported to Hungary) at one
store where the selection was fair, and right across the street was one
where everything looked like a variation of the same combat boot.
Shopping is a great adventure in Hungary like everything else, but really
worth one's while. It is like traveling in any foreign country, you must
always keep your good sense of humor about you and don't think that
changing traveling checks into cash is as easy as everyone says it will
be!!!!!!!!!


Megghi

EMAIL: 
+ - Re: Good vs. better (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:06 AM 1/28/96 -0500, Andras Kornai wrote:

>As a prophet you need followers.
I'm not a prophet.  And I can hardly conceal my disdain for those who would
follow one.  Followers, not prophets (false or otherwise), are the real
scourge on this planet.

>If they find your hedonism off-putting,
>they are more likely to look for other prophets than to change their ways.
No kidding, eh?  Religion, capitalism, and totalitarianism of every kind,
always has a problem with a philosophy that upholds an ethical doctrine that
only what is pleasant or has pleasant consequences is intrinsically good.
Hedonists don't spend a lot of time on their knees praying.  Oh sure, I know
hedonists who spend a lot of time on their knees, but let me assure you that
it has nothing to do with praying.  Hedonists also make lousy employees.
Although they engage in many 'four-letter-word' activities, work is not one
that they would freely choose.  Also, those with a totalitarian disposition
don't like the fact that hedonists gravitiate only towards the sexual and
not the poltical version of S&M.

>Similarly, your partners in hedonism (and their number is likely to grow,
>what with all that advertising) might find the messianic streak a turnoff
>(it really does not mix well with the bottom role, what can I tell you) and
>might simply look for other partners, rather than seeking professional
>help.
Sure.  They may find the 'messianic streak' a turnoff, but as you mentioned
in a previous post, there is a shortage of 'bottoms'.  It seems that in real
life, (or should be using modern terms like 'real time'?), in capitalist
societies, most people are bottoms and they relish playing 'top', sexually.
Me?  I'm a 'bottom' financially.  By also being a 'bottom' sexually, I avoid
being disappointed all the time.  For me, the only real problem is a
shortage of gerephiles.

>Besides, such people just don't want to be cured!
No.  But I have a good idea of what they want.

>> >The internet is a big thing. Our debate is a little thing -- don't
>> >mistake one for the other.
>> The size queen in me wouldn't allow it!
>:-) :-)
When you start using 'smileys', it's clear that we're only using wet, over
cooked linguine for mutual flagellation.  I have a very strong preference
for an 'el dente' style of tounge lashing.  Get with it!!

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Bitchy? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I`ve sometimes been told by women that I`m bitchy. I reply that i
just make observations.



Karcsi
+ - Re: Horn - Soros Meeting (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sun, 28 Jan 1996, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:

> Thank you for the article and the information. I believe it is the First
> Hungary Fund that I was thinking of when I referred in my earlier message to
> the consortium founded by the three businessmen to foster investment in
> Hungary. I would also presume that if a small investor wanted to invest, say
> $100.00/mo. into development of Hungarian enterprises, that he or she would
> be able to do this through the First Hungary Fund. Although there are

Unfortunately, no. The First Hungary Fund is a "closed" fund and it is
not traded.

> should be eligible for the deduction. I believe one is allowed to invest 10%
> of one's total RRSP contributions in a fund located abroad. Canadians should

20% foreign content is allowed in the RRSP, but as far as I know there is
no Hungarian Fund on the market, in which small investor could invest.

Barna Bozoki
+ - Re: Introduction and Feminist Issues (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tony and Celia Becker > wrote:
>Wow! I finally made it into this list and what a group of first messages!
Dear Cecilia:

This is a very uplifting posting!

Being in a similar situation; would you kindly share with me, the message
of how and who may subscribe? As for your posting, I am tryin to
download it, so that I can better digest.

Regards
Aniko Dunford




>
>
+ - Hungarian language lesson from Sandor Kristyan (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:46 AM 1/29/96 -0500, Sandor Kristyan wrote:

>Well, in Hungarian offices the secretaries,
> coworkers (females of course) are called girls. Independently of their
> ages. They LIKE it, it is polite, very polite.

They must adore it. I can well imagine a 55-year old grandmother who can
hardly suppress her delight when she is hears her boss or coworker calling
her: lany or kislany.

>To non hungarian readers or for those who left H. long time ago let
> me give a dictionary with some explanation:
> girl = lany
> lady = holgy
> woman=asszony , no"
> madam = asszonyom
>
> boy = fiu
> young man = ifju
> man = ferfi
> Mr. Sir = uram <---This shows an impact.

Neither Andras Kornai nor I--the two people who talked about the problem
with your usage of words--need, by the way, your "dictionary." Thank God,
both of us are quite fluent in our mother tongues.

>   It would be a long story or explanation that the holgy/lady
> has some unpolite tone since it refers some superiority (related
> not to sex but to social status - "u'rno"").

It is unnecessary to go into the idiosyncracies of the Hungarian language.
We are talking about something else.

>>You were told! I wonder by whom! And why? The Szalon happens to be a
>  Now you like the Szalon or not ?

Sandor, I am coming to the conclusion that you are a bit slow on the uptake.
I was sarcastic!!

>>And what on earth does it mean: "If you feel safe in Hungary to talk about
>>this." Am I supposed to be afraid of somebody?
>  Yes! Not literally, but I bet you would not express your opinion
> about woman in Forum.

It just shows that you don't know me at all. Me? Afraid? And again, don't
you realize that every word you utter is supporting my contention about
Hungarian men? You are one of those people we are talking about. Moreover,
what you are saying here is that those "wonderful, open-minded, gentlemanly"
men on the Forum would all pounce on me because I consider women equal to
men. Actually, I consider myself way above most of the men on the Forum,
both in character and in knowledge.

Eva Balogh
Eva Balogh >
+ - Re: Dr. Dr. K.S.'s B.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:46 AM 1/29/96 -0500, Dr. Dr. K.S. wrote:

>   So that is the real problem! Well, in Hungarian offices the secretaries,
> coworkers (females of course) are called girls. Independently of their
> ages. They LIKE it, it is polite, very polite.

I don't suppose you believe in reincarnation?  If you did, maybe you could
fantasize about coming back as a 'girl'.  I'm sure you'd LIKE the experience.

>    Please do not try to explain me attitudes not existing in practice.
> I have been being called somehow (from Sir to the ...) every day.

I can well imagine!

Joe Szalai
+ - HUNGARY "girls" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thanks for KIVESEZ-ing my answers, at least we spotlight all finer details.

>I can well imagine a 55-year old grandmother who can
>hardly suppress her delight when she is hears her boss or coworker calling
>her: lany or kislany.
 No "kislany" allowed. You see, the girls/lanyok has other meaning in this
 envirolment. The "kislany"(little girl) is what/would be very arrogant or
 "pofatlan". You could have been blamed me (in the same way what you actually
 did) if I had used it.

>with your usage of words--need, by the way, your "dictionary." Thank God,
>both of us are quite fluent in our mother tongues.
 I know, but the time was short again! I wanted to emphasize the small
 differences "between words girls and girls".
 That part was not actually finished - that was incomplete.

>Hungarian men? You are one of those people we are talking about. Moreover,
 One more reason for me to sorry that - as I have told you in private email -
 I do not read the discussion/argument on feminism. 1.: I am moderately
 interested only, 2.: I have no TIME !!!
 (Anyway, if I am those kind of people, what a heck is the problem at all ???)

Let me spice your (all of you) discussions. Here sometimes I talk with an
american man about the feminism. (He is the person who calls the (histeric)
women "woman on the rag".) He calls himself as a "feamle male-chouvinist".
I suggested him to read Hungary, but he does not do that.

                         Dr. Dr. K.S.
+ - HUNGARY Joe : (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>I don't suppose you believe in reincarnation?
 I guess I do not. Lenon (not Lenin !!!) believed it, and in his book he said :
 All atoms in our body completely change in every seven years. I wonder!
 Probably he did not know too much about mixed reactors and their changing via
 fluid flux goes in and out. But do not push me! I may was a convinced
 feminist activist. Or I may say the sentence from Mrs. Doubtfire (the movie):
 "I used to be one."...
                         Dr. Dr. K.S.
+ - -No Subject- (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Sandor Kristyan wrote:
> ......
> lady = holgy
> woman=asszony , no"
> madam = asszonyom
> .......

A genuine question, is the Madam referred to as in ....

"Yes Madam" as a male shop assistant may say to a woman in his shop.
or
Madam as in keeper of a house of dubious repute.
?

(Could be embarrassing getting it wrong to say the least !)

    GarryC.

############################################################################
# Better a dry crust                    # Internet:        #
# with peace and quiet,                 # Garry Collins, Electronics Dev't,#
# than a house full of feasting,        # PEC (New Zealand) Ltd     Marton #
# with strife.           Proverbs 17:1  # New Zealand   Tel +64 6 327 8189 #
############################################################################
+ - Re: Good vs. better (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:18 29/01/96 -0500,  Joe G. Szalai wrote:
>At 05:06 AM 1/28/96 -0500, Andras Kornai wrote:
>.... as you mentioned
>in a previous post, there is a shortage of 'bottoms'.  It seems that in real
>life, (or should be using modern terms like 'real time'?), in capitalist
>societies, most people are bottoms and they relish playing 'top', sexually.
>Me?  I'm a 'bottom' financially.  By also being a 'bottom' sexually, I avoid
>being disappointed all the time.  For me, the only real problem is a
>shortage of gerephiles.
>
>>Besides, such people just don't want to be cured!
>No.  But I have a good idea of what they want.
>
>>> >The internet is a big thing. Our debate is a little thing -- don't
>>> >mistake one for the other.
>>> The size queen in me wouldn't allow it!
>>:-) :-)
>When you start using 'smileys', it's clear that we're only using wet, over
>cooked linguine for mutual flagellation.  I have a very strong preference
>for an 'el dente' style of tounge lashing.  Get with it!!
>
>Joe Szalai
>


OK, guys, if your going to get into that twisted perverted stuff, I suggest you
take your discussion to "alt.sex.magyar"!

Puritanically,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

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