Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX SCM 506
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-11-01
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Soros sponsoring legalization of marijuana? (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Willy, the Canadian pseudo poet and artificial arti (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: HELP: I m looking for christmas greetings in foreig (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Is there a Hungarian word for "cool"? (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
5 Arpi tata *NEM* bagatellizalja 1956-ot! (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
6 Help needed: calumny on Slovak-L (mind)  105 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Soros sponsoring legalization of marijuana? (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Is there a Hungarian word for "cool"? (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
9 Hungarian broadcast information FAQ (mind)  124 sor     (cikkei)
10 +++ The most holy power of priests and the holy genealo (mind)  60 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Is there a Hungarian word for "cool"? (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: The Ottoman Empire and the German Reformation (mind)  204 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: +++ The most holy power of priests and the holy gen (mind)  91 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: The Ottoman Empire and the German Reformation (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Soros sponsoring legalization of marijuana? (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
16 Virus Information from HipCat - this is NOT a virus! (mind)  81 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Soros sponsoring legalization of marijuana? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I've just heard from Peter Jennings of ABC News that George Soros
is among the sponsors of the California Marijuana Initiative.  Other big
shots bankrolling it include George Zimmer, the "I guarantee it!" guy in
the Mens' Wearhouse clothing store chain TV commercials.

Now, this Calif. initiative is trying to legalize the "weed" for medical
use only, but most opponents think that this is just a ploy to
liberalize the use of dope later on.  Come to think of it, this sounds pretty
realistic assumption in the light of George Soros' push for legalization
of the drug in Hungary recently, mostly through his presumed proxies.
And in Hungary it hasn't been proposed as "for medical use only."

So what is Soros up to?  Somehow this involvement of his does not fit
into his philanthropic and "Open Society" activities.
(Yeah, yeah, I know ... W. F. Buckley also wants to legalize the drug,
but he is pretty much a loner with that on the Right.)

Joe Pannon
+ - Re: Willy, the Canadian pseudo poet and artificial arti (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Don't you guys ever get tired of this...?
+ - Re: HELP: I m looking for christmas greetings in foreig (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mele Kalekemaka(Hawaiian for Merry Christmas)
+ - Re: Is there a Hungarian word for "cool"? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, AND Books > wrote:

>recognized that all cultures make their own words to fit the times. The 
>solution to this one is simple, grasshopper, there is NO magyar word with the 
>morphemic meaning of "cool" (that i know of). far-out.

I am leaning to this conclusion myself.  There are several Hungarian
slang words that capture the essence of "cool" im some context, but none
that translates its meaning faithfully in all its usages.

>o.k., so i got carried away with "Usual Suspects", that is a "cool" film.

Agreed.  I've just seen another film recently that tried to copy the
dramatic scheme of the Usual Suspect; the "Rich Man's Wife".  Have you
seen it?  Unfortunately, it was pretty much a flop.

Joe
+ - Arpi tata *NEM* bagatellizalja 1956-ot! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sulyosan tevednek akik azt hiszik, hogy Partizanbacsi
a szonyeg ala kivanja tomkodni 1956-ot.

Csupan a Forradalmat es Szabadsagharcot bagatellizalja,
amugy nagyon is hiperaktiv, peldaul a gyilkosok
kitunteteseben.

De nem csak abban. Mint a Demokrata (43) irja, "A Soros
Alapitvany tamogatasaval filmet keszitettek 1956-rol,
melynek tulajdonkeppeni fohose Goncz Arpad koztarsasagi
elnok. Szinten az alapitvany segitsegevel elkuldtek a
felveteleket tobb altalanos es kozepiskolanak...

A demokrata kerdezi:
-Nem sok ez egy kicsit?

Valaszol Fekete Gyula MVSZ alelnok:

....A rendezorol..kiderult, hogy korabban is keszitett mar '56-os
filmet. Abban a muveben ellenforradalomnak allitotta be a
forradalmat.Az, hogy az iskolak megkaptak videon, nem lehet veletlen.
Regota indexre tettek Magyar Jozsef filmjet, amely szinten
1956-rol szol - hitelesen.  Magyar alkotasa meg dijat is
nyert (Persze nem Sorostol), de ugy latszik, a kulturpolitika
fontosabbnak tartotta, hogy Goncz Arpadrol tanuljanak a fiatalok.

Tobb olyan jel van, amely valoszinusiti, hogy a mostani kulturalis
vezets tudatosan es modszeresen elveti azokat az ertekeket,
amelyek a nemzet erdekeit hangsulyozzak, es orommel fogadja
azokat, amelyek a hatalomban levok dicshimnuszat zengik.
Az, hogy a Soros-tamogatta film jutott el az iskolasokhoz,
csak azert, mert naluk volt erre penz, egy ujabb jele annak,
hogy semmikeppen sem nevezhetok demokratikus gondolkodasuaknak
a kulturalis ugyek donteshozoi.
Varga Andras"

Ha Rakosi le is daralta politikai ellenfeleit (korabban ugy
tudtuk, hogy csak kepletesen szeletelte fel oket, mint a
szalamit, de kiderult hogy fizikailag is ledaraltatta!) oda
meg Rakosi sem vetemedett, hogy mondjuk partizan-hostetteirol
kellett volna mesefilmeket nezni az iskolakban.

Arpi tata megtestesiti azt a kormonfont aljassagot, amely
napjaink mocskos kozeleti allapotait jellemzi otthon.
+ - Help needed: calumny on Slovak-L (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Below is a description of a criminal deed that has been perpetrated
in Slovak-L. I will be grateful for any help, any assistance on this 
issue.

First, a quotation of two articles that have been spread accross the 
Internet. The formatting of the headers is different, but in both cases
the crime scene is Slovak-L. The first article has been extracted from 
archives while the second one is from the newreader's cache. 

Both articles were written by a person who is contributing through a
Swedish server and both contain statements of facts regarding my 
person. 

Here they are:

> =========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 7 Sep 1996 15:10:00 GMT
Sender:       Discussion of Slovak Issues >
From:         Igor GAZDIK >
Organization: -
Subject:      Re: Who are you Mr. Kanala??!!
Comments: To: , 

#In article >,
 says...
#>
#>In article >,  says...#

#>You must know that freedom of association and freedom of speech
without
#any
#>fear of harassment are basic human rights. So what are you talking
#about?
#>
#>Who are You Mr. Kanala?
#>
#>
#>Peter Kmet

        is that so difficult to guess?   an estebak on active duty,
        albeit one who has missed a page in the course of history:
        the one stating that the stb has been disbanded.  that's why
        magyar kanala keeps doing his job and in an insulting manner
        entertains the world.
> =========================================================================
Group: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: Slandering as you described about Mr. Kanala .
From:  (Igor GAZDIK), -
Date: 19 Oct 96 13:58:12 +0200

"In article >,  says...
2>
">Slandering as you described about Mr. Kanala .
">
">Similar path of slandering as you described about Mr. Kanala appeared
"on

">Slovak-L newsgroup.  I would guess that they are mostly Czech
"extremist,

        except that kanala is a magyar extremist, apparently a (former?)
        estebak...



">and often are coming to this Newsgroup looking for trouble and they do
">not hesitate to slander any user at his own organization describing
him
">as very bad member of University, etc...
">
">Best Regards
">Henry
> =========================================================================

In both articles, the legendary Mr. Gazdik writes about my person. 
In both articles, there is a statement about me as being a Magyar.
This is not true, I am Slovak. I live in Geneva, Switzerland since
many years, but consider myself to be Slovak. 

The other allegation is much more serious. Mr. Gazdik says on my 
behalf that I am "an estebak on active duty", "a (former?) estebak".

For the lucky people who don't know what that means, an explanation:
StB is the abbreviation for the Czechoslovak secret political police 
under the previous totalitarian regime, called State Security (Statna 
Bezpecnost), in charge of "fighting against the internal enemy".

This statement is not true. The intention to harm is obvious. This is 
a new case of an attack on my integrity, a calumny. In Switzerland, 
calumny is a serious criminal offense and leads to imprisonment.

I have tried to verify the existence and identity of the author, without 
success. There indeed seems to be a person of that name owning a
telephone
in Stockholm, Sweden, but the information about him is not published in
the phone book. After his phone company, Mr. Gazdik paid for neither 
his phone number nor his address to be given away.

I will be grateful for any tip, any information that might lead to 
identification of the perpetrator. I have the intention to sue him
for diffamation and calumny. Until now, I was unable to do so 
because of the anonymity of his Internet account he is hidden behind.

Roman Kanala

+ - Re: Soros sponsoring legalization of marijuana? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

) writes:
> I've just heard from Peter Jennings of ABC News that George Soros
> is among the sponsors of the California Marijuana Initiative.  Other big
> shots bankrolling it include George Zimmer, the "I guarantee it!" guy in
> the Mens' Wearhouse clothing store chain TV commercials.
> 
> Now, this Calif. initiative is trying to legalize the "weed" for medical
> use only, but most opponents think that this is just a ploy to
> liberalize the use of dope later on.  Come to think of it, this sounds pretty
> realistic assumption in the light of George Soros' push for legalization
> of the drug in Hungary recently, mostly through his presumed proxies.
> And in Hungary it hasn't been proposed as "for medical use only."
> 
> So what is Soros up to? 

About ten miles high I'd say, however, unlike myself, he's not far out.

> Somehow this involvement of his does not fit
> into his philanthropic and "Open Society" activities.

Encourages self-sufficiency among many of the peasant class to grow cash
crops of PanamaRed or AcapulcoGold in southern California and tax it.
What's wrong with a good infusion of tax revenue?

Especially potent and valuable is ManhattenSilver. This is the
BlueMountainCoffee of WeedWorld.

> (Yeah, yeah, I know ... W. F. Buckley also wants to legalize the drug,
> but he is pretty much a loner with that on the Right.)

Most of the potheads I associated with in the Sixties, those who paid off
their mortgages and student loans with entrepeneurial skills with nickel
and dime bags, have largely swung to the Right.  

> Joe Pannon

Don't Bogey that doobie Joe, pass it over to me.
+ - Re: Is there a Hungarian word for "cool"? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article > Laszlo Teleki,
 writes:
>Az en tudomasom szerint a "laza" szo a "cool" megfeleloje. A het vegen
>hallottam egy zsenialis mondas: "Nagyon laza vagy anya". Ezt egy 25
>even no mondta a masiknak.... Szoval fejlodunk a "laza" kifelyezesek
>magyarositasaban is....

Szerintem nem ezt jelentette, hogy cool (amit a nemetek is atvettek
az angolbol, Beavis & Buttheadben das isch kool hangzik mindig el).
A cool-nak jobban megfelel a do:go:s, mint jelzo. Ferrari is cool -->
a Ferrari dogos kocsi. En (bocseszka) kurvajonak (sic) vagy
kurvajobazmegnek forditom. Szegyellosebbek mondhassak ugy is hogy
marhajo vagy kibaszottjo.

Tamas
+ - Hungarian broadcast information FAQ (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Archive-name: hungarian/broadcast
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: broadcast
Last-modified: 1996/06/29
Version: 0.82
Posting-Frequency: every twenty days

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 Many thanks go to Andy Vadasz and Peter Soltesz, who compiled much of
the information shown here. This file is being maintained at the
archive <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/HU-broadcast.txt>;. A similar
compendium is also available from the HAL archives
<ftp://mineral.umd.edu/pub/hungary/docs/North_Am_Hun_Language_Broadcasts>
<http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/ftp/docs/North_Am_Hun_Language_Broadcasts>;,
with more related material under <http://mineral.umd.edu/hir/Entertainment/>;.

 The programme by the Radio Petofi is available real-time simulcast via
the Internet (the first such national broadcast according to them):
<http://www.petofi.enet.hu/reala.html>; (note that this adress is at
'enet.hu', signifying E-NET, which is distinct from 'eunet.hu' where
some other resources are to be found). That page has all the
information needed to get the sofware handling the 'realaudio' format,
or one can go straight to the source at <http://www.realaudio.com>;.

 Realaudio format recorded broadcast segments for some HungarianRadio
programmes are available thru <http://www.wrn.org/stations/hungary.html>;. 
The homepage for Radio Budapest (the external service of Hungarian
Radio) is at <http://www.eunet.hu/radio/>; - they have a lot of textual
information, including schedules and frequency tables for worldwide
broadcast.

 Computer-readable Hungarian language broadcast material from the Voice
of America is found under <http://www.voa.gov/programs/audio/>;; they
have other computer audio file formats for download beside realaudio as
well.

 Here is a listing of Hungarian language broadcasts (as of 28 May
1996), collected by Peter Soltesz <mailto:>.
Note that the Hungarian language broadcast of the Radio Free Europe
(which was shown in the original version I posted) has been
discontinued sometime in '95! Also, the Voice of America beam is
transmitted from outside America and can't be received there (despite
the earlier listing showing them with their nominal Washington, D.C.
location). However their Web server makes computer-readable recordings
available, as shown in the paragraph above.  I dropped the VOA entries
from here - for the full schedules see
<gopher://gopher.voa.gov/00/voa-sked/hungarian-pgms> and for all the
frequencies <gopher://gopher.voa.gov/00/voa-sked/langs-and-freqs>
(these files can be accessed thru <http://www.voa.gov>; as well as from
<ftp://ftp.voa.gov/>).

<<< Text version of database file follows: >>>
  ID, Type, FREQ, City, ST, PROG, DAY, Time, Address, Tel, Fax 
 KTYM , AM ,, INGLEWOOD , CA ,1,,,,,
 WVOF , FM ,, FAIRFIELD , CT ,2,,,,,
 WNDU , AM ,, SOUTH BEND , IN ,1,,,,,
 WSBT , AM ,, SOUTH BEND , IN ,1,,,,,
 WRSU , FM ,, NEW BRUNSWICK , NJ ,1,,,,,
 WCSB , FM ,, CLEVELAND , OH ,1,,,,,
 WKTX , AM ,, CORTLAND , OH ,12,,,,,
 WKTL , FM ,, STRUTHERS , OH ,1,,,,,
 WELW , AM ,, WILLOUGHBY-EASTLAKE , OH ,1,,,,,
 WIBF , FM ,, JENKINTOWN , PA ,1,,,,,
 WMZK , AM , 680 , DETROIT , MI ,1, FRI , 2100-2200 ,,,
 WNYE , TV , 25 , NEW YORK , NY ,0.5, SAT , 1500-1530 ,,,
 TCI , CABLE ,, WESTCHESTER County , NY ,,,,,,
      , AM , 1380 , NEW YORK , NY ,1, SUN , 1200-1300 ,,,
 WQRP , FM ,, DAYTON , OH ,3, SUN , 0900-1200 ,,,
 WNVC , TV , 56 , FALLS CHURCH , VA ,0.5, SAT , 0800-0830 ,, 1-703-698-9682 ,
 CKJS , AM , 810 , WINNIPEG, MANITOBA , CN ,0.5, SAT , 2000-2030 ,, 1-204-477-1
221 ,
      , FM , 105.9 , NEW YORK , NY ,2, SUN , 1200-1400 ,,,
      , SW , 25 m ,, PA ,0.25, TH , 1645-1700 ,,,
 TELSTAR , SAT , 22 ,, NA ,,,,,,
 GALAXY-4 , SAT , 23 ,, NA ,0.5, M-F , 1930-200 ,,,
 GALAXY-4 , SAT , 23 ,, NA ,0.5, SAT , 1730-1800 ,,,
 ASC-1 , SAT , 23 ,, NA ,0,,,,,
 VATICANA , SW ,,, IT ,0,,,,,
 CBN , SAT ,,, NA ,0,,,,,
 CBC , SW ,, TORONTO , CD ,,,,,,
 BBC , SW ,, LONDON , UK ,,,,,,
     , SW , 3250 , BIRMINGHAM , AL ,1, D , 0700-0755 ,,,
          ,, 830 , CLEVELAND , OH ,,,,,,
 MAGYAR RA. , SW , VARIES , BUDAPEST , HU ,0, D ,,,,
 BUDAPEST , SW , VARIES , BUDAPEST , HU ,0, D ,,,,
 DEUTSCHE W , SW ,,, GE ,0,,,,,
 WCPN , FM , 90.3 , CLEVELAND , OH ,1,,,,,

<<< end of database listing >>>

 Andy Vadasz <mailto:> posted the following:
+In a May 14 message, I reported (in part):
+
+> their current 9870 kHz will change to 9840 kHz starting May.21. Not clear
+>whether the change is for the entire 3 hour transmission (including
+>Hungarian and English language programs). 
+
+More recently the new arrangement has been posted on the "Radio Budapest"
+webpage: http://www.eunet.hu/radio/   To summarize. the North America beam
+is broadcast on 9840 and 11870 kHz with the following breakdown
+
+Starting time (UTC)     Language    Beam orientation
+00:00                   Hungarian    N.America East
+01:00                   English      N.America East
+01:30                   Hungarian    N.America West
+02:30                   English      N.America West
+
+In my area (Northern Virginia) the first two segments have been fair to good
+on 9840 kHz.

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!

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+ - +++ The most holy power of priests and the holy genealo (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

===> God+Jacob <===
===> David*Jonathan <===
===> Love is the Holy Spirit <===
===> The Holy Spirit ensures the unity of the Holy Trinity <===
===> Is Jesus the son of Ephraim, the son of Jacob? (read P.P.S.) <===


The apostles received many powers from Jesus.
The well known are: to change the wine into the blood (soul) of Christ,
and to change the bread into the body of Christ.

But from Eucharist doesn't proceed the Holy Spirit, as it proceeds
from the Son.

That's why Jesus gave to the apostles the power to change the human semen
into the Holy Spirit.

Why it is important? Well, for example when you fuck a boy with a semen,
it is a sin (Leviticus 18:22), but if you fuck a boy with the Holy Spirit,
you bless him (Genesis 32:24-29).

What is without the Holy Spirit adultery, is with the Spirit blessing.

The beautiful power gave Jesus to the apostles. The power of love.

The apostles used this power first time when they received the Holy Spirit.
(Acts 2:1-4) It was a spiritual orgy which looked like a sexual orgy, but
instead of semen there was "speaking" the Holy Spirit which looked like
a semen.

This power is used also during the eucharistic prayer, because the priests
put their hands above the bread and the wine. It is the symbol of love
(=the Holy Spirit). The bread and wine are filled by the Holy Spirit,
and by that act the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ
full of the Holy Spirit. Something similar is happening during making
a new bishop. Love (the Holy Spirit) can take on himself many images
(i.e. it can look like many thinks). The image of semen is one of them.

Mordekhai

P.S.: The virginity of any man is broken only by a fucking with a semen,
but it remains unbroken by a fucking by the Holy Spirit. That's why
Mary is really virgin, because she was never fucked by a semen. She was
fucked by the Holy Spirit with the assistance of the angel Gabriel.

P.P.S.: There is possible to envelop a concept of spiritual genealogy
of Jesus, i.e. the genealogy of the Holy Spirit. Jacob was fucked
by the Holy Spirit (Genesis 32:24-29). He filled his son Josef
by the Holy Spirit, and Josef filled his son Ephraim by the Holy Spirit
(I Paralipomenon 5:1-2). It continued to the priest Eli which filled
Samuel the prophet by the Holy Spirit (I Samuel 3:6), Samuel filled
Shaul the first king of Israel, Shaul filled Jonathan his son,
Jonathan filled David (I Samuel 18:3, 20:16-17, 20:42, 23:18),
David filled Sholomo. It continued to John the Baptist which filled Jesus.

I will be interested to reconstruct the entire spiritual genealogy of Jesus.

This is, may be, the partial genealogy:
God->Jacob->Josef->Ephraim-> ... ->Eli->Samuel->Shaul->Jonathan->David->
Sholomo-> ... ->Elijah->JESUS
+ - Re: Is there a Hungarian word for "cool"? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Istvan Szucs > wrote:
>Nem is hallottam Szeged, Ohio-rol :)
   En sem. Ha csak nem az a csodaszep varos Budapest, Ohio -tol delkeletre 
168 km tavolsagban ;o)

>                                      A kerdes inkabb az
>hogy ugyanaz a korcsopo rt aki itt a cool-t hasznalja az
>hasznalja e otthon a meno"-t. Szerintem nem!
>Istvan
>
Ebben egyetertunk, de Pannon Jozsi kerdese nem a korcsoportra vonatkozott, csak
arra, hogy van-e magyar megfelelo. Van.
GK
+ - Re: The Ottoman Empire and the German Reformation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

My friend George is right that it is wrong to characterize the Ottoman 
Empire in such a facile manner. George Soumakis wrote:

> 
> -Surensoy,E. wrote:
> >
> >         First of all Sauli Ingman and others read the following please:
> >
> >         The Republic of Turkiye was born on October 29, 1923; until then
> >         there was no Turkiye and Turks were forced to live without any
> 
> Again you try to deny your murderous history.  The Ottoman empire was a
> Turkish country, ruled by Turks who did all the murdering.  It's an
> empire that has nothing to offer to the modern world.
> 
> george
> 
> >         of their basic human rights and freedoms under the opppressive
> >         rule of Ottoman Empire which was not supported nor democratically
> >         elected by Turks. Ottoman Empire was an ultra fundamentalist
> >         Islamic-military emperialist dictatorship which never in its
> >         entire 600 years of history claimed itself as a Turkish state
> >         nor did it pursue the aspirations or welfare of Turkish Nation;
> >         the Turks who did so were punished by death by the Ottoman Law.
> >         Under Ottoman rule, Turks were only landless peasants with virtuall
y
> >         no other options in life working for next to nothing all their live
s.
> >
> >         Baron Wenceslas Wradislaw, an ambassador to Ottoman Constantinapole
,
> >         observed and documented "Never did I hear it said of any pasha, or
> >         observe either in Constantinople or in the whole land of Ottoman,
> >         that any pasha was a national born Turk; on the contrary, kidnapped
,
> >         or captured, or turned Ottoman."
> >
> >         Ottoman Empire was controlled and rulled by the Ottomans who were
> >         former Christian Armenians, Greeks, and other Eastern European
> >         peoples abducted by force from their families at young ages
> >         (devshirmes), trained in a special school, and converted to a
> >         pseudo Islam to be employed as the rulers, officials and the sole
> >         beneficieries of Ottoman system of oppression. With on the top the
> >         bastard who called himself Ottoman Sultan who was the son of an
> >         enslaved concubine of many hundreds like her who were former Easter
n
> >         European  Christians converted to the same pseudo Islam also, some
> >         of the Ottoman Armenians were:
> >
> >           Gabriel Noradunkyan                   Ottoman Foreign Minister
> >           Ohannes Sakiz Pasha                   Ottoman Ambassador
> >           Artin Dadyan Pasha                    Ottoman Ambassador
> >           Harutyan Dadyan Pasha                 Ottoman Ambassador
> >           Manuk Azaryan                         Ottoman Ambassador
> >           Agop Kazazyan Pasha                   Ottoman Finance Minister
> >           Mikael Portaklayan Pasha              Ottoman Finance Minister
> >           Ohannes Sakiz Pasha                   Ottoman Finance Minister
> >           Field Marshal Garabet Artin Davud     Ottoman PTT Minister
> >           Field Marshal Garabet Artin Davud     Ottoman Housing and Urban
> >                                                 Development Minister
> >           Andon Tingir Yaver Pasha              Justice of Ottoman High Cou
rt
> >           Abraham Yeramyan Pasha                Justice of Ottoman High Cou
rt
> >           Mihran Duz                            Justice of Ottoman High Cou
rt
> >           Bedros Kuyumcuyan                     Justice of Ottoman High Cou
rt
> >
> >         and many others, too many to mention here; even the Ottoman officia
l
> >         language used in foreign relations was Armenian.
> >
> >         Abdul Hamid II is a good example; he  was one of the most brutal
> >         Ottoman bastards who terrorized his subjugated peoples, especially
> >         the Turks, most brutally for 33 years from 1876 until 1909; he was
> >         known as the Red Sultan for the blood of his innocent victims in
> >         his hands  and Bedros, or Peter in Armenian, because of his Armenia
n
> >         features and his Armenian mother who was one of the may hunderds of
> >         cuncubines of his father's women slave courters called harem. The
> >         decendents of former Ottomans who live in Turkiye and have been
> >         reletlessly anti-Turkish and anti-Turkish Republic since the early
> >         moments of the Turkish Republic refer to him as "the Great Ruler",
> >         or "Ulu Hakan" in Turkish; of course, he was "the Great Ruler" to
> >         the Ottomans, but not to the Turks and other subjugated nations who
> >         were forced to live under the most brutal Ottoman system of oppress
ion
> >         and exploitation.
> >
> >         Another typical example was a man known by the name Barbarossa, a
> >         very successful(!) Greek Christain corsair, and a renegate, at the
> >         age of 67 or 68 converted valuntarily (of course to serve for his
> >         own benefits) to become a Moslem (Ottoman style) and an Ottoman
> >         Pasha to command the Ottoman naval fleets as the Ottoman Grand
> >         Admiral.
> >
> >         Barbarossa was one of 4 sons of a former Ottoman devshirme (a
> >         Janissary) during Suleiman II times born on the Greek Island of
> >         Mytilene, the ancient Lesbos. His father was a young boy when Ottom
ans
> >         abducted him from his Greek Christian parents to convert him to Mos
lem
> >         and trained him to be a Janissary. After he retired, he returned to
> >         his native island took up pottery for living and married the widow
> >         of a Greek Orthodox priest who gave birth to his four sons, Ishak
> >         the eldest who was a merchant, and the other three (Uruj, Khaireddi
n
> >         known as Barbarossa, and Elisa) were corsairs.
> >
> >         Babarossa was certaily the role model and the leader of Ottoman
> >         Naval force; in him, Ottoman system of oppression and emperialism
> >         found a very valuable capability to enslave and plunder more innoce
nt
> >         peoples and countries. But the tottally unfair and unfortunate side
> >         of this for Turks and Turkiye is that now, according to the Ottoman
> >         propaganda taught in schools in Turkiye by the descendents of forme
r
> >         Ottomans as the Ottoman history, Barbarossa, the Greek Christian
> >         corsair is being made to be known as "the father of Turkish Navy an
d
> >         sailors." His grave is kept as a Turkish National shrine and monume
nt
> >         by his descendents in Istanbul at the shores of Baspouros. So, the
> >         Turks get it from every which way regardless.
> >
> >
> >                                         ../..
> >
> > In article ),  > wrote:
> > )Ingman wrote:
> > )>
> > )> E-MAIL ADDRESSES OF HISTORIANS OF TURKISH HISTORY AND BOOKS ON TURKISH H
ISTORY
> > )>
> > )> I am  Sauli Ingman from Finland. I am studying history at the university
> > )> of Helsinki.  I am  most interested in the relations between Sultan
> > )> Süleyman Kanuni, Emperor  Charles the V and his brother Ferdinand Archdu
ke
> > )> of Austria, and the German Protestants. My special subject is how Turkey
> > )> benefited from the German reformation as the Ottoman empire continued it
s
> > )> expansion  into Europe from 1521 onwards. Do you  know of any book or
> > )> article, about  how Turkey benefited from the German reformation, the
> > )> German and other Protestants and Martin Luther 1521 - 1606? Moreover, do
> > )> you know of any information available on the Internet on the same subjec
t?
> > )>
> > )> Are there any Turkish archiv sources on the same subject? I have a Turki
sh
> > )> point of view on this subject.
> > )>
> > )> I am also interested in the history of Turkey generally.  I would like t
o
> > )> get e-mail addresses of historians  of Turkish history, because I would
> > )> like to discuss the history of Turkey with them.
> > )>
> > )> Please e-mail your messages directly to me. Thank you.
> > )>
> > )> My e-mail is: 
> > )>
> > )> Yours sincerely
> > )>
> > )> Sauli Ingman
> > )
> > )Read Ivan N. Ostroumoff's THe History of the COuncil of Florence.  Follow
> > )threads bavckwards to the Byzantine correspondence with early Reformation
> > )figures.  Contrast this correspondence up to the period of the COuncil of
> > )Ferrara Florence with the smae arguments of East-West differences as
> > )covered at the Counci of Florence.  What you are suggesting as an area of
> > )thesis inquiry has some value but not before the earlier period is done
> > )properly.
> > )
> > )Note the extant collection of Mark Eugenicus's disputations with Ottoman
> > )and other late beylik Turks, Orthodoxy vs. Islam.  Another area that must
> > )be thoroughly covered before you attempt the later period.
> > )
> > )Good to see someone working on this.
> > )
> > )Galina Schneider.
> > )


But some of the other assertions made by people other that George such 
that the Osmanlis were not partly Turkic, or that they were mostly Greek 
and SLavic is ludicrous.  THe Ottoman Empire considered itself to be a 
successsor to the Byzantine Empire, as did the Selcuks before (Rum).  It 
was considered as such, by the way, by the Slavic and Greek successor 
states with which it had diplomatic relations.  Of course, the manner of 
ceremonial rule was coopted from the Byzantines but a large part of the 
administrative strucutre was more related to various of the beyliks 
predecessosr administrations.

The author of the insert article is partly correct in speaking about the 
different flavor of Islam in Turkey and in the Balkans.  Certainly the 
Bektashi and Mevlevi, Naqshibani (spelling?) and other orders were 
somewhat different, but I would think very rich traditions exploring a 
fuller potential of personal inquiry within the framework of Sunni faith. 
 I think that there is great reason to treasure these traditions.  The 
concept of "slave" in Ottoman parance I will not touch.  I suggest a 
consultation with Mr. Chukurov on that concept as he has more experience 
than I. ;)

Galina Schneider
+ - Re: +++ The most holy power of priests and the holy gen (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mordekhai wrote:
> 
> >> That's why Jesus gave to the apostles the power to change the human semen
> >> into the Holy Spirit.
> >
> > I agree that there is a strong parallel between the Holy Spirit and
> > human semen in that human semen is involved in the creation of new
> > life, and when the Holy Spirit comes upon a human being, he or she is
> > filled with new life, but I don't understand what you are intending
> > to say whgen you say that "Jesus gave to the apostles the power to
> > change the human semen into the Holy Spirit.
> 
> I am intending to say that Jesus gave to the apostles the power
> to manipulate the divine person of the Holy Spirit. They received
> the power to force the Holy Spirit to take on himself the image
> of their semen. Not the semen is holy, but the Holy Spirit
> which looks like a semen. It is like Eucharist: the difference
> between bread and wine and body and blood of Christ. Both look
> same, but in fact it is completly different. The sinful sexual
> acts like adultery or pederasty become with the Holy Spirit
> holy.
> 
> >> Why it is important? Well, for example when you fuck a boy with a semen,
> >> it is a sin (Leviticus 18:22), but if you fuck a boy with the Holy Spirit,
> >> you bless him (Genesis 32:24-29).
> >
> > This seems to me to be saying that the passing on of the Holy
> > Spirit from one person to another is very like sexual intercourse
> > in that it is a gift of new life.  Am I correct?
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> >> What is without the Holy Spirit adultery, is with the Spirit blessing.
> >
> > Are you saying that the physical act of sex has to be an actual
> > part of this blessing?  Or is the symbolic act - such as the laying
> > on of hands enought to transmit the Holy Spirit?
> 
> The blessing is an ejaculation, i.e. when the Holy Spirit, which looks like
> a semen, goes out trought someone's penis, and someone is filled
> by the Holy Spirit.
> 
> > I Corinthians suggests that the early churches had sexual orgies as
> > part of their worship.  Paul condemned this as being wrong.  My own
> > opinion is that the form of pagan worship that was carried out by
> > the gentile nations included sex-orgies - and Christianity held
> > this to be wrong.  I wouldn't have thought that the spiritual orgy
> > that you describe would have looked like a sex orgy - why do you
> > feel that this is the case?
> 
> Well, the power over the Holy Spirit received Peter and apostles as whole.
> These are the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven (Mattew 16:3 (?), 18:18).
> On this power is based the apostolic tradition of the Catholic Church.
> Christians held the gentile sex-orgies to be wrong, because they
> didn't believe that from the gentile proceed the Holy Spirit, and
> they didn't belive that they have the power to force the Holy Spirit
> to take on himself the image of their semen.
> 
> In case of Acts 2:1-4 is written about tongues which looked like tongues
> of fire. From the context is also clear that by that tongues were
> the apostles filled by the Holy Spirit. What is more natural to think
> than that the tongues were the erected penises of the apostles, and that
> the Holy Spirit, which looked like a semen proceeded through them.
> They filled each other by the Holy Spirit.
> 
> To understand the crucial importance of the apostolic power help us
> Platon in his famous work "Symposium" where he decribes the relations
> between him and Socrates. Socrates was his teacher. Socrates met
> Platon when he was 13 years old boy. The relations between them were
> highly homoerotical. Socrates loved Platon, made with him love, and
> taught him philosophy. He taucht him, because he loved him. I think
> that this is exactly the thing that ensures the judeo-catholic continuation.
> The knowledge goes hand-in-hand together with Eros. It is the mystery
> of the relation father-son. In the Holy Trinity Christians glorify
> the sacred homosexuality. The Father loves his Son, and he fill him
> by the Holy Spirit. The same Holy Spirit proceeds from both:
> from the Father and from the Son. The Catholic Church tries to incorporate
> the life of the Holy Trinity in its own life. That's why there is
> the obligation of celibacy (i.e. to be not married and no other obligation),
> and exclusion of women from an active pristhood (because from woman cannot
> proceed the Holy Spirit in his most natural image, i.e. that of semen).
> 
> Mordekhai


Stop distributing this crab of yours over the Net!!!  

If you have a little intelligence you should know that the true
Spirituality has nothing to do with the institutionalized Church. 

N.N.
+ - Re: The Ottoman Empire and the German Reformation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Soumakis wrote:
> 
> -Surensoy,E. wrote:
> >
> >         First of all Sauli Ingman and others read the following please:
> >
> >         The Republic of Turkiye was born on October 29, 1923; until then
> >         there was no Turkiye and Turks were forced to live without any
> 
> Again you try to deny your murderous history.  The Ottoman empire was a
> Turkish country, ruled by Turks who did all the murdering.  It's an
> empire that has nothing to offer to the modern world.
> 
> george

Wrong.

Without the Ottoman Empire you would pay at the gas pump many times the
today's price. The Ottoman empire happens to be the instruments that
delayed the rise of national states through  the middle east, and such
allowed the West the role of liberator and then the one to dominate its
political future to these days. 


A. Albu
+ - Re: Soros sponsoring legalization of marijuana? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 > wrote:
| I've just heard from Peter Jennings of ABC News that George Soros
| is among the sponsors of the California Marijuana Initiative.  Other big
| shots bankrolling it include George Zimmer, the "I guarantee it!" guy in
| the Mens' Wearhouse clothing store chain TV commercials.
| 
| Now, this Calif. initiative is trying to legalize the "weed" for medical
| use only, but most opponents think that this is just a ploy to
| liberalize the use of dope later on.  



Come to think of it, this sounds pretty
| realistic assumption in the light of George Soros' push for legalization
| of the drug in Hungary recently, mostly through his presumed proxies.
| And in Hungary it hasn't been proposed as "for medical use
only."

Proxies? The fact that Eorsi receives Soros grants does not
mean that he is a proxy. If it did whose proxies would those
congressmen and activists be who accept grants from the
Heritage foundation? 
| 
| So what is Soros up to?  Somehow this involvement of his does not fit
| into his philanthropic and "Open Society" activities.

Why? I don't think it follows from them, but why is it
contrary to them?

| (Yeah, yeah, I know ... W. F. Buckley also wants to legalize the drug,
| but he is pretty much a loner with that on the Right.)

What I would like to see is a good reason for or against
legalizing marijuana as a controlled substance. I think it's
a good idea. (I am ambivalent abot  legalizing marijuana all
together, and don't have a strong position either way).
+ - Virus Information from HipCat - this is NOT a virus! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This was e-mailed to me, and I wanted to pass it along.  Some old info
(good times), but some new as well:

IMPORTANT INFORMATION ABOUT TWO MORE VIRUSES

 - READ NOW!!!

<1>  Please take note of this Internet virus.

There is a computer virus that is being sent across the Internet. If
you receive an email message with the subject line "Good  Times",

DO NOT  read the message, DELETE it immediately.

Please read the messages below.

Some miscreant is sending  email under the title "Good Times"
nationwide, if you get anything like this, DON'T DOWN LOAD THE FILE! It
has a virus that rewrites your hard drive, obliterating anything on it.
 Please be careful and forward this mail to anyone you care about.

The FCC released a warning last Wednesday concerning a matter of major
importance to any regular user  of the Internet. Apparently a new
computer virus has been engineered by a user of AMERICA ON LINE that
is unparalleled in its destructive capability. Other more well-known
viruses such as "Stoned", "Airwolf" and "Michaelangelo" pale in
comparison to the prospects of this newest creation by a warped
mentality. What makes this virus so terrifying, said the FCC, is the
fact that no program needs to be exchanged for a new computer to be
infected. It can be spread through the existing email systems of the
Internet.

Once a Computer is infected, one of  several things can  happen. If the
computer contains a hard drive, that  will most likely be destroyed. If
the program is not stopped, the computer's processor will be placed in
an nth-complexity infinite binary loop -which can severely damage the
processor if left running that way too long.

Unfortunately, most novice computer users will not realize what is
happening until it is far too late. Luckily, there is one sure means of
detecting what is now known as the "Good Times" virus. It always
travels to new computers the same way in a text email message with the
subject line reading "Good Times". Avoiding infection is easy once the
file has been received simply by NOT READING IT! The act of loading the
file into the mail server's ASCII buffer causes the "Good Times"
mainline program to
initialize and execute.

The program is highly intelligent- it will  send copies of itself to
everyone whose email address is contained in a receive-mail file or a
sent-mail file, if it can find one. It will then proceed to trash the
computer it is running on.

The bottom line is:  - if you receive a file with the subject line
"Good Times", delete it  immediately! Do not read it"  Rest assured
that whoever's name was on the  "From" line was surely struck by the
virus.  Warn your friends and  local system users of this newest threat
to the Internet! It could save them a lot of time and money.


<2> DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY FILE NAMED PKZIP300 REGARDLESS OF THE EXTENSION

We work closely with the military and received this message from a very
reliable source in DC this morning.

A NEW Trojan Horse Virus has emerged on the internet with the name
PKZIP300.ZIP, so named as to give the impression that this file is a
new version of the PKZIP software used to "ZIP" (compress) files.

DO NOT DOWNLOAD this file under any circumstances!!! If you install or
expand this file, the virus WILL wipe your hard disk clean and affect
modems at 14.4 and higher. This is an extremely destructive virus and
there is NOT yet a way of cleaning up this one.

REPEAT: DO NOT DOWNLOAD ANY FILE NAMED PKZIP300 REGARDLESS OF THE
EXTENSION.



-- 
Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/

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