Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 805
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-09-30
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Nikita Khrushchev (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
2 Interview with George Soros (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Sophistry (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Sophistry (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Surname Definition (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Surname Definition (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Sophistry (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Surname Definition (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: rounding up of jews (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Problems with Hungary (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
12 SUICIDE (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Sophistry (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  52 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Sophistry (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
16 Potpourri (3) (mind)  76 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: rounding up of jews (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Sophistry (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Sophistry (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
22 A. Albu soc.cult.magyar was Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: rounding up of jews (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Surname Definition (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: Surname Definition (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: SUICIDE (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
29 Re: Surname Definition (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
30 Problems with Hungary (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Nikita Khrushchev (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe At 10:09 AM 28/09/96 -0400, you wrote:

><snip>
>That recent document I referred to yesterday was mentioned on the CBC radio
>news.  The news report said that the document was released by Boris Yeltsin
>a couple of years ago.  I thought it was interesting because it was news to
>me.  Perhaps Khrushchev saw Imre Nagy as another Tito.  And maybe he was,
>but we'll never know.  However, it's interesting to note that, with time, Kada
r
>turned out to be like Tito.
>
>Joe Szalai

This brings me back to my childhood Joe.  When we too, in Hungary, *used* to
get news,  just about two years after the fact - or never at all.

Regards,
Aniko
+ - Interview with George Soros (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Haliho, Listmembers!

You may be interested to know that CBS is going to do a feature interview
with George Soros in the *Eye on America* segment of the CBS Evening News
tomorrow evening, Monday, September 30, 1996.

U:dvo:zlettel,

Johanne/Janka
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:56 AM 9/29/96 -0400, Aniko Dunford wrote:

<snip>
>Joe:
>
>First of all; my name was not officially named by yours truly as being "on
>that list".  Secondly; might you help in explaining, as to why I find this,
>your reply, rather on the condescending side?

I didn't name anyone, Aniko.  There is no "list".  You volunteered your
name.  And I'm sorry if you thought my reply was condescending.  I was
trying to make it humourous.  In any case, I stand by my comments.  "Back
slappers" don't contribute much to the debates.  They never have and they
never will.  On the other hand, most of us who contribute regularily, get
more than our share of comeuppance.  It's the price we pay.  To be made fun
of, to be ridiculed, is the small price that "back slappers" pay.  And they
won't get any gruel until they give some grist for our mills.

Joe Szalai

"A philosopher who is not taking part in discussions is like a boxer who
never goes into the ring."
               Ludwig Wittgenstein
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:41 PM 9/28/96 -0400, Andy Kozma wrote:

<snip>
> Joe:didn't you know that the intelligencia took over,and keeps a stronghold
>here.

They took over, did they?  And what's to show for it?  Not much!  Well, it
wasn't worth the wait, was it?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Surname Definition (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:11 PM 9/29/96 +0100, Lajos Monoki wrote:

>SZEGEDI - somebody coming from SZEGED. Szeged is a town in southern Hugary
>(I live here). BTW: My name is MONOKI - there is a little viilage in
>northern Hungary called MONOK. It means my ancestors came from Monok. It is
>common in Hungary having a surename like these (e.g Budai, Szolnoki, etc.)

So, is there a small village called Szala somewhere?  Also, there is no
agreement in our family on how to spell our surname.  Some write it with a
"y" and some with an "i".  Is there an answer for this?

Joe Szalai (not, Szalay)
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>>Peter I. Hidas wrote:

>
>The rounding up and deportation of the Jews began on May 15, 1944. Germany
>occupied Hungary on March 19, 1944 and installed the Sztojay government.
>Horthy remained governor.

A minor remark: Horthy was regent, in English, not governor; in
anglo/american tradition, governor is the chief executive of a state,
province, or colony, while Horthy governed a kingdom in lieu of a king.

Of course Peter Hidas knows this, but others might not...

L. J. Elteto
+ - Re: Surname Definition (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>At 02:11 PM 9/29/96 +0100, Lajos Monoki wrote:
>
>>SZEGEDI - somebody coming from SZEGED. Szeged is a town in southern Hugary
>>(I live here). BTW: My name is MONOKI - there is a little viilage in
>>northern Hungary called MONOK. It means my ancestors came from Monok. It is
>>common in Hungary having a surename like these (e.g Budai, Szolnoki, etc.)
>
>So, is there a small village called Szala somewhere?  Also, there is no
>agreement in our family on how to spell our surname.  Some write it with a
>"y" and some with an "i".  Is there an answer for this?
>
>Joe Szalai (not, Szalay)

Not necessarily, but quite possibly; but sometimes names/spellings will
change. E.g. zalai can easily have become szalai. As to the 'i' vs 'y'
spellings: The -i endings tend to be  the older, and tend, also, to have
come from eastern (protestant) Hungary, Transylvania, etc. Cf. names like
Teleki, Rakoczi, Bocskai (but also Catholic -western- Zrinyi, Szechenyi).
But from the oldest times,  the final [i] sound in names has occurred in
both spellings.

Louis Elteto
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe - At 04:40 PM 28/09/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Thank you for your post, Aniko.  To show my appreciation for your candor,
>I'm going to take your name off that list right away.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>"Leave the personal insults, vindictiveness and ugliness to Szalai and me.
>We're trained professionals."
>                      Sam Stowe
>
Joe:

First of all; my name was not officially named by yours truly as being "on
that list".  Secondly; might you help in explaining, as to why I find this,
your reply, rather on the condescending side?

Regards,
Aniko
+ - Re: Surname Definition (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:46 AM 9/29/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 02:11 PM 9/29/96 +0100, Lajos Monoki wrote:
>>
>>>SZEGEDI - somebody coming from SZEGED. Szeged is a town in southern Hugary
>>>(I live here). BTW: My name is MONOKI - there is a little viilage in
>>>northern Hungary called MONOK. It means my ancestors came from Monok. It is
>>>common in Hungary having a surename like these (e.g Budai, Szolnoki, etc.)
>>
>>So, is there a small village called Szala somewhere?  Also, there is no
>>agreement in our family on how to spell our surname.  Some write it with a
>>"y" and some with an "i".  Is there an answer for this?
>>
>>Joe Szalai (not, Szalay)
>
>Not necessarily, but quite possibly; but sometimes names/spellings will
>change. E.g. zalai can easily have become szalai. As to the 'i' vs 'y'
>spellings: The -i endings tend to be  the older, and tend, also, to have
>come from eastern (protestant) Hungary, Transylvania, etc. Cf. names like
>Teleki, Rakoczi, Bocskai (but also Catholic -western- Zrinyi, Szechenyi).
>But from the oldest times,  the final [i] sound in names has occurred in
>both spellings.
>
>Louis Elteto

        All this remind me of a delightful little book which was published
in 1969: Be'la Ka'lma'n, *A nevek vila'ga,* Budapest: Gondolat. [The World
of Names] Unfortunately, I didn't find the name "Szalai," but Louis is quite
right it can even come from the word "Zala." Balog/Balogh, on the other
hand, is in and it means "left-handed." To be precise, "little left-handed,"
because of suffix -g is a by now extinct suffix with the meaning of
"little." Surely, one of my ancestors had to be left-handed. The name
"Csorba," for example, means "chipped," but in the sense of "crooked teeth."

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: rounding up of jews (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Felado :  [Canada]
>
> The rounding up and deportation of the Jews began on May 15, 1944. Germany
> occupied Hungary on March 19, 1944 and installed the Sztojay government.
> Horthy remained governor.
While the bulk of the rounding up and deportation happened after Germany
occupied Hungary, there was already one major act of rounding up and
deportation, resulting in the death of some 16,000-18,000 Jews at the hand of
the SS in August 1941, under the Ba1rdossy government. By that time, the third
Jewish Law was already in effect. This law, noted for its stringent
(Nu2nberg-style) racially based measures forbid, among other things, the
marriage of Jews and non-Jews.

I'm sorry to see Pe1ter Hidas trying to whitewash this rather shameful period
of Hungarian history. Eichmann and the German occupiers of 1944 didn't operate
in a vacuum. To the contrary, they operated with the enthusiastic
collaboration of the Hungarian police and paramilitary forces (particularly
the gendarmes) and they operated in an environment where the gradual
disenfranchisment and dehumanization of Jews was a nearly complete process,
with racial legislation leading every step of the way.

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: Problems with Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:23 PM 9/29/96 +0100, Lajos Monoki wrote:
>Somebody asked why Slovaks (Romans, Serbs, etc.) don't like Hungarians. One
>possible answer:
>
>Today Mr. Gyorgy Giczy (chairman of KDNP) said in Het (TV Weekly
>Newsmagazine): Opposition have to pull together: KDNP, MDF, FKGP and MIEP
>(Istvan Csurka's party), but we don't see any way of cooperation with MDNP
>(ex-MDF members' party). If we will be in power, we will revise all treaties
>with Slovakia, Ukraine and Romania. Hungary don't have to give up its
>territorial claims.
>
>Well, if I were a Slovak or Roman, I would understand this statment as a
>declaration of a possible war.
>
>BTW: I wonder if EU and NATO wants a member country, in which every
>goverment starts over everything from zero, revising all treaties.

        I have been reading Mr. Giczy's utterances for at least a year with
growing apprehension. Mr. Giczy is getting quite close to Mr. Torgyan as far
as irresponsibility and stupidity are concerned. Considering that the
Romanian parliament ratified the treaty in record time, and we hope that the
Hungarian parliament will do the same, this kind of irresponsible remark
from a Hungarian politician is unforgiveable.

        At least the right of center parties, FIDESZ and the new MDNP, also
refuse to cooperate with at least the FKGP and perhaps even with the KDNP if
Giczy's leadership prevails. (We will see how far right Sandor Lezsak's MDF
is planning to go.) Thus, if FIDESZ and MDNP can position themselves in the
middle of the political spectrum and if the SZDSZ leaves the coalition
(maybe!) a real possibility of a decent middle-of-the-course political bloc
may develop. I think this would be a healthy development. I keep my fingers
crossed!

        Eva Balogh
+ - SUICIDE (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

SUBJECT: SUICIDE
                  Suicide is an opening to another dimension of
overwhelming happiness and the departure from a place of hostility and
pain,to a place of tranquility and everlasting joy.This place I'm
referring to is called another World far from this one.This paradisical
World I talk about only gives everlasting peace and the blissfulness of a
mystical wonderland of intrigue and euphoria,so lets give our hearts out
to those people who will someday be in the bossom of the Father.We must
not lament on their passing,but know they are now with the Father of love.
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Andy Kozma
> writes:

>O my will I get bashed over my head to write anything different about the
Us.
>Hey wait a minute,my Son just became a US citisen,and will be able to
vote
>for the first time.Give me a break.
>Regards:Andy.>
>
>

Andy, you're a man out of your time. As late as the 1950s, comedy based on
ethnic stereotyping was still acceptable in the U.S. But the social
upheaval of the 1960s has changed all that. You no longer have to confine
yourself to playing the insular, smug Canadian. I don't know how you'll
deal with this newfound freedom. Ask Joe Szalai -- he may have some useful
ideas.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- I hear they're redesigning the U.S. flag to make room for the new
stars that'll have to be added when Ontario and every province to the west
petition for admission to the Union. And there's nothing wrong with your
spelling. It is, I presume, the standard version taught in Canada's public
schools?


"The true champion of justice, if he intends to survive
even for a short time, must necessarily confine
himself to private life and leave politics alone."
-- Plato, "Apology"
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  writes:

>>They were murdered with the active assistance of the Hungarian
government.
>> >Remember, the Germans didn't seize control of the country until the
>> >process of rounding Jews up and shipping them off to Auschwitz was
already
>> >well underway.
>>
>> Hungary was occupied in March, 1944. The deportation of the Jews
followed.
>> Horthy and his government (Kallay) resisted and categorically rejected
over
>> and over the German demands for ghettoizing, branding and deportation
of
>> the Jews until that date. The deportation was organized in 1944 by A.
>> Eichmann and his 200 agents with the support of the Hungarian civil
service
>> and gendarmerie.
>>
>> Peter I. Hidas
>> Montreal
>
>----------------------
>It is clear what you are sating. Based on what
>Sam Stowe  states, the rounding up of Jews happened before that date of
>March, 1944. I am interested on who is right.
>
>Albert Albu
>
>

Al, the problematic part of what Dr. Hidas is talking about lies in the
sentence, "Horthy and his government (Kallay) resisted and categorically
rejected over and over again the German demands for ghettoizing, branding
and deportation of the Jews until that date." I've been reading up on the
regency-era government of Hungary recently and, as I stated in my reply to
the good doc (which hasn't shown back up on my server yet) the ghettoizing
of Jews -- their removal from Hungarian society -- started well before
1944 when the Hungarian government under Imredy, among others, enacted
laws which purged Jews from the nation's civil service, universities and
economic life. I suspect this may not be a case of who's right and who's
wrong, but inelegant and imprecise phrasing on my part about what
constitutes ghettoizing Jews. If I can get to the library Sunday, I'll
copy and post some relevant material to back up what I'm talking about.
Should make for a pretty decent historical discussion at least.
Sam Stowe

"The true champion of justice, if he intends to survive
even for a short time, must necessarily confine
himself to private life and leave politics alone."
-- Plato, "Apology"
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>
>Thank you for your post, Aniko.  To show my appreciation for your candor,
>I'm going to take your name off that list right away.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>"Leave the personal insults, vindictiveness and ugliness to Szalai and
me.
>We're trained professionals."
>                      Sam Stowe
>
>

Szalai, if you change this sig anytime in the near future, it will be
difficult for me to forgive you.
Sam Stowe

"The true champion of justice, if he intends to survive
even for a short time, must necessarily confine
himself to private life and leave politics alone."
-- Plato, "Apology"
+ - Potpourri (3) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

A few more pieces of Hungarian journalism:

Tizehat ora--September 7

        A tv program which dealt with the Romanian-Hungarian treaty. Levente
Su:ko:sd was the program director and he interviewed several people
political leaders inside and outside of Hungary proper as well as ordinary
people participating in a demonstration against signing the treaty. One of
my favorite comments came from an unnamed woman:

        "The trouble is that the United States interfere in our affairs.
That's why Horn and his party are strong. They want us to sign this
agreement; they want us to join the European Union. This will be a good
point for Tom Lantos in America."

        I can't help wondering how will that be a good point for Tom Lantos!


Magyar Hirlap--September 3

Title: "After Tolgyessy." Author: Attila Farkas. A short piece announcing
and analyzing Peter Tolgyessy's abandonment of SZDSZ. The most interesting
part, of course, that Magyar Hirlap is close to SZDSZ, practically
considered the SZDSZ's daily paper. Yet, the article ends on this note:
        "Teny azonban, hogy mind a kozvelemenykutatasok, mind pedig az SZDSZ
elhelyezkedese a honi partok rokonszenvskalajan tobbe-kevesbe alatamasztjak
Tolgyessy helyzetelemzeset. Kivalasa nem indit el kilepesi hullamot volt
partjaban, toresvonalakat sem idez elo, legfeljebb hajszalrepedeseket;
mindazonaltal folerosit egy kerdest: hogy valt a rendszervaltas radikalis
partja, a "partdobogo" masodik helyerol sokaig elorelepesre eselyes SZDSZ a
balkozep koalicio illedelmes kormanypartjava, amelyet a kozvelemeny ma mar
legfeljebb kiegeszito partnerpartnak tart."

        Instead of translating it word for word here is a short synopsis.
The polls more or less prove Tolgyessy's analysis of the position of SZDSZ.
His leaving the party will not result in mass exit from the party. It will
not create a real break only hairline breaks. But still one must ask the
question: how did the radical party of the change of regime period become
the polite partner of a left of center coalition.

HVG--September 14. Title: "Waiting for the Opposition." Author Gyozo Matyas.

        Gyozo Matyas is not exactly a conservative commentator. Not at all.
A couple of years ago I remember reading articles from him which I
considered to be quite irresponsible. He was a very outspoken critic of the
Antall-Boross governments and made no secret about the fact that his
political sympathies lay with the opposition. Today, he is one of the more
outspoken critics of the Horn government. The article begins this way:

        Azt mondta Tolgyessy Peter a Bucsu az SZDSZ-tol cimu opuszanak az
Orszagos Tanacs podiumara dramatizalt valtozataban, hogy esetleg
bekapcsolodik, "egy versenykepesebb ellenzek megformalasanak ... munkajaba."

        Eppen ideje.

        Hiszen velhetoleg nem mondok falrengeto ujdonsagot azzal, hogy e
mostani szocialista-liberalis kormanykoalicio gyakori kapkodasaival,
nemelykor dobbenetes szakszerutlensegevel, olykor elvtelennek
ertekrezisztensnek tuno taktikazgatasaival (amit ok--mino
tevedes--pargmatizmusnak neveznek), alkalmankent egy szilard erkolcsi rend
kiepulese helyett a normanelkuliseg terjedeset szolgalo gyakorlataval, neha
egyenesen viszolyogtato "ugyeivel" eleg siralmas teljesitmenyt nyut.....

        It is difficult to translate but Gyozo Matyas has a very low opinion
of Horn's government. Descriptions like: "horrifying inefficiency,"
"unprincipled maneuvering," "stomach-turning 'affairs,'" and "miserable
performance" will give you an idea what he thinks of the Horn-lead
government. Gyozo Matyas hopes that Tolgyessy will be able to create a
serious and respectable right-of-center opposition (unlike Torgyan, Giczy,
et al). He wishes him well because

        "Az ugyanis eleg szegyenletes volna, ha a jelenlegi koalicio csupan
azert maradna a helyen, mert nincs jobb." [It would be shameful if the
present coalition remained in place simply because there was nothing better].

      Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article <v01540b00ae71b974f9a3@[198.168.48.45]>, "Peter I. Hidas"
> writes:

>Hungary was occupied in March, 1944. The deportation of the Jews
followed.
>Horthy and his government (Kallay) resisted and categorically rejected
over
>and over the German demands for ghettoizing, branding and deportation of
>the Jews until that date. The deportation was organized in 1944 by A.
>Eichmann and his 200 agents with the support of the Hungarian civil
service
>and gendarmerie.
>
>Peter I. Hidas
>Montreal
>
>

This skates over some inconvenient facts. Hungarian Jews had already been
ghettoized by laws passed under the Horthy regime. The regent did resist
actual deportations out of the country. But he complied in large degree
with Nazi demands that Jews be driven from many areas of daily life.
Sam Stowe

"Baby, will you eat snack crackers wearin'
that, uh, special outfit you bought?"
-- Southern Culture on the Skids, "Camel Walk"
+ - Re: rounding up of jews (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 2:30 PM 9/29/96, Andras Kornai wrote:
>> Felado :  [Canada]
>>

>
>I'm sorry to see Pe1ter Hidas trying to whitewash this rather shameful period
>of Hungarian history. Eichmann and the German occupiers of 1944 didn't operate
>in a vacuum. To the contrary, they operated with the enthusiastic
>collaboration of the Hungarian police and paramilitary forces (particularly
>the gendarmes) and they operated in an environment where the gradual
>disenfranchisment and dehumanization of Jews was a nearly complete process,
>with racial legislation leading every step of the way.
>
>Andra1s Kornai

Whitewash? There was nothing in my brief description of 1944 to justify
your accusation. A group of Torontonians are trying to prove the opposite
and devote a whole internet Home Page to my denunciation. By the way, the
the gendarmes were regular police in charge of the countryside. The regular
police was less involved in the presecution of the Jews and their so-called
enthusiasm was never universal. You may know about their similar attitude
in 1956. The fact remains, that in the spring of 1944 close to a million
Hungarian Jews were living in Hungary in relative safety in their own
homes. They were humiliated, persecuted, deprived of their businesses and
so on but they were alive unlike the more than five million European Jews
who perished up to that time. Yes, the government was responsible for the
death of tens of thousands of Hungarian Jews who were murdered under
Hungarian jurisdiction and so were they responsible for the death of close
to half a million Hungarian soldiers. Nevertheless, despite  Hitler's
insistance, Horthy and Kallay, as I mentioned before, refused to hand over
the Hungarian Jews to Germany. What happened after 19 March 1944 is another
story. The fact remains that until that time Hungary remained a relatively
safe place for Jews.

Peter I. Hidas
Montreal
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

WAT IS THIS, A CHAT ROOM?

Eva S. Balogh wrote:
   ....... That's correct. For well over a year you have been trying to
> convince me that the day will come when socialism will triumph. I don't
> believe that you are right. You cannot convince me and I can't convince you.
> So, what's the use of discussing this worn-out topic. It is boring and it
> leads nowhere. So, don't think that I'm running away from your superb
> intellect. No, I just recognize that discussion on this topic is
useless........
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>I don't think we have to bring in environmental or hereditary factors to
>this discussion.  Eva Balogh's comments are quite clear.  She doesn't
>recognize your existance and she doesn't want to discuss my "socialist
>dreams" any more.  She says it's not worth discussing these matters with
>me. Jeliko said that he deletes posts from me, Eva Durant, and Tibor Benke.
>Maybe Eva Balogh does the same now.
>Unfortunately, all this posturing has had a rather negative effect on this
>newsgroup.  Debate has almost dried up.  Eva's "back slappers" and "thank
>you-ers" don't challenge her and rarely contribute to discussions.  They
>think that the empresses clothes are gorgeous.  And maybe they are, but I'm
>not one to follow fashion.
>I think the "problem" is the nature of the internet and the newsgroups.
>Nobody can control the agenda.  This is problematic for people like Balogh
>and Jeliko.  Given their age, and their status in society, they have been
>able to control agendas in the past.  But not here in cyberspace.  And
>because of that they revert to denial.  Therefore, I don't exist, you don't
>exist, unpopular topics don't exist, etc., etc..
>Politically, I can only smile at their frustration.  They're both good
>historians, but the future, as far as interpersonal communications is
>concerned, is going to throw them for a loop.  And they'll have no one to
>blame for their predicament but themselves.

Joe, I cannot comment on Jeliko (that's your private war) and I've
promised Sam to cut Eva some slack ;-) but, you have otherwise hit
the nail on the head: your psychological insight is very perceptive
concerning the problem of honest and vigorous debate in general,
especially on the open forums in cyberspace.

I don't completely agree about the *thank you* replies, since people
are often grateful for the information and many on this group have
a genuine family-like interest in fostering exchanges and relationships
with others that have Hungarian connections. The BIG EXCEPTION is where
they are obviously being sycophantic, OR WORSE, saying *thank you for
agreeing with me* on a contentious issue, which only betrays that ego,
and not a passion for truth, is their agenda...ugh!

BTW I'm not sure what you mean by *good historian*. I've personally
known some outstanding historians and simply quoting stuff verbatim
is not it. Good researchers, maybe. Good historians have the ability to
extrapolate on the data. It is a common blunder to believe that reciting
data parrot fashion is omniscience: it ain't. Using reason and judgment
in interpreting the data to make revealing connections (as with
every other intellectual activity [it's part of my professional
mandate to recognize and nurture this ability in youngsters]) makes
a good historian.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy ** Commodore=64...ICPUG ** NW London CC
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  writes:

>Peter I. Hidas wrote:
>>
>> At 11:26 AM 9/27/96, Stowewrite wrote:
>> >In article >,  writes:
>> >
>> >>Yes, they were murdered and they were murdered when Hungary was in
the
>> >>hands of those germanofils who rejected the values of the Western
>> >>Civilization, ... back in the XIX'c. This will hapen any time
---------

>> >They were murdered with the active assistance of the Hungarian
government.
>> >Remember, the Germans didn't seize control of the country until the
>> >process of rounding Jews up and shipping them off to Auschwitz was
already
>> >well underway.
>> ---------
>> Hungary was occupied in March, 1944. The deportation of the Jews
followed.
>> Horthy and his government (Kallay) resisted and categorically rejected
over
>> and over the German demands for ghettoizing, branding and deportation
of
>> the Jews until that date. The deportation was organized in 1944 by A.
>> Eichmann and his 200 agents with the support of the Hungarian civil
service
>> and gendarmerie.
>>
>> Peter I. Hidas
>> Montreal
>
>----------------------
>It is clear what you are sating. Based on what
>Sam Stowe  states, the rounding up of Jews happened before that date of
>March, 1944. I am interested on who is right.
>
>Albert Albu
----------------------
FACT: Hungarian Jews were "rounded up" and put in ghettos first,
except in Budapest. The deportation came later.
+ - A. Albu soc.cult.magyar was Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello Everyone,
I signed on to soc.culture.magyar and I saw the following posted by
A.Albu.
What is he trying to do?

Regards,
Marina
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------->>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Peter I. Hidas wrote:
>
> At 11:26 AM 9/27/96, Stowewrite wrote:
> >In article >,  writes:
> >
> >>Yes, they were murdered and they were murdered when Hungary was in the
> >>hands of those germanofils who rejected the values of the Western
> >>Civilization, ... back in the XIX'c. This will hapen any time
> >>
> >>
> >
> >They were murdered with the active assistance of the Hungarian
government.
> >Remember, the Germans didn't seize control of the country until the
> >process of rounding Jews up and shipping them off to Auschwitz was
already
> >well underway.
>
> Hungary was occupied in March, 1944. The deportation of the Jews
followed.
> Horthy and his government (Kallay) resisted and categorically rejected
over
> and over the German demands for ghettoizing, branding and deportation of
> the Jews until that date. The deportation was organized in 1944 by A.
> Eichmann and his 200 agents with the support of the Hungarian civil
service
> and gendarmerie.
>
> Peter I. Hidas
> Montreal
----------------------
It is clear what you are sating. Based on what
Sam Stowe  states, the rounding up of Jews happened before that date of
March, 1944. I am interested on who is right.

Albert Albu
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>FACT: Hungarian Jews were "rounded up" and put in ghettos first,
>except in Budapest. The deportation came later.

The Budapest ghetto was established after the deportation of the Jews from
the countryside and provincial towns. Thousands of Budapest Jews were
forced to march to Austria and eventually many of them ended up in
concentration camps. By the summer of 1944 the road to Auschwitz was
closed. The Red Army was nearby and there was an uprising in Slovakia.

Peter I. Hidas
Montreal
+ - Re: rounding up of jews (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:55 PM 9/29/96 -0400, Peter Hidas wrote:
>By the way, the
>the gendarmes were regular police in charge of the countryside. The regular
>police was less involved in the presecution of the Jews and their so-called
>enthusiasm was never universal.

        My good Internet friend, Dr. Georg Fischer from Sweden, spent
months, until the Russians arrived, in the Budapest ghetto. According to
him, the Budapest police actually defended the ghetto from Szalasi's
Arrowcross troops. He says that not too many people know about this. I keep
urging him to record his memories of that time. I know that there are
several oral history projects which would be very interested in what he has
to say.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Surname Definition (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Ok, how about "Szulzer?" That was what our name was until the immigration
officials got to it. Does anyone know about this one?

>At 02:11 PM 9/29/96 +0100, Lajos Monoki wrote:
>
>>SZEGEDI - somebody coming from SZEGED. Szeged is a town in southern Hugary
>>(I live here). BTW: My name is MONOKI - there is a little viilage in
>>northern Hungary called MONOK. It means my ancestors came from Monok. It is
>>common in Hungary having a surename like these (e.g Budai, Szolnoki, etc.)
>
>So, is there a small village called Szala somewhere?  Also, there is no
>agreement in our family on how to spell our surname.  Some write it with a
>"y" and some with an "i".  Is there an answer for this?
>
>Joe Szalai (not, Szalay)
>
>
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In a message dated 96-09-29 19:17:02 EDT,  (Peter
I. Hidas) writes:
Mpflerr wrote:
>> FACT: Hungarian Jews were "rounded up" and put in ghettos first,
>>except in Budapest. The deportation came later.

>The Budapest ghetto was established after the deportation of the Jews from
>the countryside and provincial towns.
I know, - - I was a small child than, visiting my Grandparents in Eger. Their
house was taken and we were all herded into the ghetto. Because my sister and
I were residents of Budapest and also because the captain of the police knew
my Mother
we were allowed to return to Budapest. We asked our Grandparents to come with
us, but they refused. We said goodby for ever. I can still feel my
Grandfathers hand on my face as he was touching my eyes, nose, the outline of
my face as if he was
trying to memorize it. Than he quickly turned away and in a horse voice
yelled out
"go, go, get out of here...".  He was a judge, but spent most of his free
time
in his vineyards. For some reason he always "packed" a revolver - we heard
after the war that he killed himself in the wagon as he was taken away.

>Thousands of Budapest Jews were
> forced to march to Austria and eventually many of them ended up in
>concentration camps. By the summer of 1944 the road to Auschwitz was
>closed. The Red Army was nearby and there was an uprising in Slovakia.
Yeah, except for the ones that were shot into the Danube or otherwise
disposed
of .
> ==========================================
"The wind is level now, the earth is wet with dew,
the storm of stars in the sky will turn to quiet.
And soon all of us will sleep under the earth, we
who never let each other sleep above it."

from "I know the truth-give up all other truths!" by Marina Tsvetayeva
(1892-1941)
> ==========================================

Marina E. Pflieger
+ - Re: Surname Definition (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai asked:
>So, is there a small village called Szala somewhere?  Also, there is no
>agreement in our family on how to spell our surname.  Some write it with a
>"y" and some with an "i".  Is there an answer for this?

This dates back to old times when Hungarian kings were handing out
titles, originally coming with some land, villages and serfs.  The name
of the village was than attached to the new noble's name as a prae-nomen,
with the 'of' or 'from' i agglutinated and changed to an y to denote
nobility.  Hence, Dezso" Bongo' given the village of Te'rgyend and a nice
colourful piece of heraldry on a parchment would thence call himself
Te'rgyendy Bongo' Dezso".  If not keen on the Bongo' bit reminding him
of his ancestry, he could just drop it and stick with Te'rgyendy.

If the piece of land was too small to have a village on it, or in more
recent times when feudal holdings were not handed out any more with
pieces of parchment, it was customary to change the ends if names
ending in an i to a y all the same.  If one's name did not end in
an i, tough luck, then the coat of arms had to be carved real big on
a seal worn on a ring and waved conspicuously.

People with names ending in an i were either commoners or such big
nobles who did not need this i to y charade (e.g., Ba'thori, Ra'ko'czi).

George Anto'ny

(No, there was no village called Anto'n in Hungary: my ancestors
were given just a piece of land big enough for seven plum trees,
as the Hungarian saying goes, and lost it on cards anyway as real
Hungarians are supposed to.)
+ - Re: SUICIDE (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

God gave life..Only God can take it away!
SUICIDE is against ALL that God has planned.
It is wrong...in fact it is also against the law.

On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Lon Roberts wrote:

> SUBJECT: SUICIDE
>                   Suicide is an opening to another dimension of
> overwhelming happiness and the departure from a place of hostility and
> pain,to a place of tranquility and everlasting joy.This place I'm
> referring to is called another World far from this one.This paradisical
> World I talk about only gives everlasting peace and the blissfulness of a
> mystical wonderland of intrigue and euphoria,so lets give our hearts out
> to those people who will someday be in the bossom of the Father.We must
> not lament on their passing,but know they are now with the Father of love.
>
+ - Re: Surname Definition (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Please define the origins of the following surname:
>
>
>SZEGEDI
>
>This is difficult to research, can anyone help?
>

Hello!

SZEGEDI - somebody coming from SZEGED. Szeged is a town in southern Hugary
(I live here). BTW: My name is MONOKI - there is a little viilage in
northern Hungary called MONOK. It means my ancestors came from Monok. It is
common in Hungary having a surename like these (e.g Budai, Szolnoki, etc.)

Bye,

******************************
*       Lajos Monoki         *
*  NCR Hungary - CSS Szeged  *
* e-mail: *
*  Tel/Fax: +36-62-434101    *
*    Mobil: +36-30-584523    *
******************************


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"
           Edgar Allan Poe
+ - Problems with Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Somebody asked why Slovaks (Romans, Serbs, etc.) don't like Hungarians. One
possible answer:

Today Mr. Gyorgy Giczy (chairman of KDNP) said in Het (TV Weekly
Newsmagazine): Opposition have to pull together: KDNP, MDF, FKGP and MIEP
(Istvan Csurka's party), but we don't see any way of cooperation with MDNP
(ex-MDF members' party). If we will be in power, we will revise all treaties
with Slovakia, Ukraine and Romania. Hungary don't have to give up its
territorial claims.

Well, if I were a Slovak or Roman, I would understand this statment as a
declaration of a possible war.

BTW: I wonder if EU and NATO wants a member country, in which every
goverment starts over everything from zero, revising all treaties.

Lajos MONOKI


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