Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 613
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-03-20
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Hello: (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
2 1996 Presidential Campaign (mind)  102 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: leadership, etc (mind)  102 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind)  55 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind)  68 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind)  58 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Main St. and Wall St. (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: leadership, etc (mind)  173 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
12 Paprika/Peppers (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: leadership, etc (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Main St. and Wall St. (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Hello: (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

we are Spanihs girls and we are going to Budapest next week and we would
like to know something about your city for example places to visit in the
night, food tipics, pubs, discos, weather, timetable...
Thank you and hurry up,please.
+ - 1996 Presidential Campaign (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Colleagues,

Since Dr. Bollyky articulated a set of Hungarian-American demands for our
presidential candidates "to sign on to," nearly a dozen other texts been
suggested by others. It seems to me, that it is not necessary, that we all
agree on a particular language. What is important is that we request our
presidential candidates that they consider the wishes of Hungarian-Americans
in formulating the foreign policy platforms of their parties.

Please find attached two letters, which I sent to President Clinton and
Senator Dole. I do not ask you to send these letters, but I do ask you to
send a letter, from which both candidates will learn that there are votes,
which they will not receive, unless they include in their foreign policy
platform, the issues which Hungarian-Americans care about. Both parties
should learn that they HAVE TO EARN the Hungarian-American votes.

In order for this effort to be successful, we must make sure:
1) That signatures are collected to such a letter in every Hungarian Church
and Synagogue.
2) That signatures are collected at every Hungarian dance, cultural event or
meeting.
3) That all Hungarian Scout groups participate in collecting signatures.
4) That fax-broadcasts are made in many parts of the USA.

This we can do, but only with the active participation of all HL members.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
The President's addresses:
The White House, Washington, D.C.
FAX: 202-456-2461
E-Mail: 

COPIES: 
                 
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Dear Mr. President,

By signing the Paris Peace Treaty on February 10, 1947, the United Stated,
together with the other Great Powers, guaranteed the rights of the indigenous
national communities of Hungarians outside Hungary. As a member of the 1.58
million community of Hungarian-Americans, I would like to learn whether, upon
being reelected, you would take steps to fulfill that guarantee.

The Paris Peace Treaty would have required  Hungary's neighbors to return the
schools and church properties of the Hungarian communities,  to guarantee the
free use of Hungarian language and education, and to provide autonomy for
these communities.

During the years of Soviet occupation, the United States could not fulfill
her treaty obligations. After 1989, the civil war in Bosnia has distracted
our attention. As a Hungarian-American  voter, I feel that the time has come
to fulfill our obligations, and therefore I intend to vote for the candidate
who promises to do so.

Consequently, I would be grateful if you would either make a public statement
on this issue or would incorporate your position in the foreign policy
 platform of the Democratic Party.

Respectfully yours,
Your name, address, title


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Addresses of Senator Robert Dole:
United States Senate, Washington DC 20510
Fax: 202-228-1245
E-Mail: NA

COPY to Congressman Newton Gingrich:
Congress of the United States, 6th District of Georgia, Washington DC 20515
FAX: 202-225-4656
E-Mail: 
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Dear Senator Dole,

By signing the Paris Peace Treaty on February 10, 1947, the United Stated,
together with the other Great Powers, guaranteed the rights of the indigenous
national communities of Hungarians outside Hungary. As a member of the 1.58
million community of Hungarian-Americans, I would like to learn whether, upon
being elected, you would take steps to fulfill that guarantee.

The Paris Peace Treaty would have required  Hungary's neighbors to return the
schools and church properties of the Hungarian communities,  to guarantee the
free use of Hungarian language and education, and to provide autonomy for
these communities.

During the years of Soviet occupation, the United States could not fulfill
her treaty obligations. After 1989, the civil war in Bosnia has distracted
our attention. As a Hungarian-American  voter, I feel that the time has come
to fulfill our obligations, and therefore I intend to vote for the candidate
who promises to do so.

Consequently, I would be grateful if you would either make a public statement
on this issue or would incorporate your position in the foreign policy
 platform of the Republican Party.

Respectfully yours,
your name, address, title
+ - Re: leadership, etc (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> I would say that Tudjman is more of an opportunistic professional
> politician. He switched very quickly from being a communist Yugoslav
> Federalist to being a champion of the Croat seperatist cause when
> Milosevic mobilized the Federal Army and the Slovenes insisted on
> independence, making a collision course inevitable. Tudjman tends to
> fall in with the plans of the Croation thugs, out of political expediency,
> rather than being the real instigator of the Croatian excesses, unlike
> his Serbian counterparts who most definitely instigate cold-blooded
> murder, terror, mutilation and torture (...you name it...) as a matter
> of deliberate policy and personally issue the directives (and in the
> cases of Karadzic and Mladic, of the above named, even participate in
> the events!)
>

I was under the impression, that when Croatia declared independence,
minority rights were not guaranteed, and
ethnic cleansing started.
I've seen cold-blooded horror on both sides.


> on this. My experience tells me that strength of leadership is very
> important, whatever political system prevails, and coming across examples
> in history tends to reinforce this. This is also true of communities
> (rather than large ethnic-national groups.)

There is no such a thing as one-person leadership, anyway
certain cliques of the financial/industrial powers are fighting for
power, and the interests of such a clique that determines
the policies/character of a goverment.  The character
of today's lot is shortsightedness even in their own best
interests, no long term planning, panic measures and sheer madness.
Frightening...


 Take work, for instance:
> if you have an unimaginative and negative boss at the top of a corporation
> (or whatever) hierarchy, his outlook will tend to eventually permeate
> throughout the organization.

And if the market/interestrates/currency change, there is
a bankrupcy, whatever is the style of the leadership.


> A strong enlightened boss who hires the right
> people and inspires the rest will have a positive effect, etc. I've come
> across this over the years and the difference it can make not only in the
> workplace, but also on peoples' lives generally, is striking. Similarly,
> in politics, the same effect takes place in the psyche of a nation (Britain
> is still trying to recover from the cynical and depressing Thatcher years!)
>

In a large organisation the top man has no such a determining
role, that's partly why most people are dismayed by the
unbelievable salaries of these folk.
The more people have a chance to contribute opinion/
knowledge/information is the better.
I personally think Tony Blair is more openly cynical than
Thatcher. I think Thatcher actually believed in some of the
demagogy she permeated. For awhile.
But essentially they are just pressured by different
interest-groups of "captains of industry" -well, actually,
city-financiers)


> Furthermore, I'm not entirely convinced that our current understanding
> and practice of democracy is necessarily the best system, anyway.

I am pretty sure is not...


> It could
> be argued that democracy really amounts to nothing more than *mob rule*
> (demos=people, kratos=power); is that enlightened?


So people = mob????

mob means uneducated and violent.  So if you want
an educated and "civilised" electorate, you have to
have funds for education and a decent standard of living...



> as practised in Britain (for instance) doesn't seem much like people power
> to me; parliament is still run by professional politicians with certain
> vested interests that rarely have much to do with the real welfare of their
> citizens (with a few notable exceptions.) BTW Did Saudi Arabia ever have an
> enlightened leader comparable to Akbar?
>

I agree, I don't think Britain is a democracy in practice.
I have no idea about Saudi history,

> I still find that the best examples of historical *Golden Ages* coincide
> with dictatorial, yet benevolent, philosopher-kings.

But the times of kings has long gone!!  It worked with
the pyramidal feudal society a long time ago.
You must play other games, not only chess...:-)

Eva Durant
+ - Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I usually enjoy reading Eva Balogh's contributions when she writes about the
 topic of her expertise, namely Hungarian history of the early 20th century.
It is when she ventures outside that safe zone that she tends to misspeak
herself.  That happens when she embarks on topics she knows next to nothing
about, and/or where she seems to find herself personally involved.

A case in point:  In HUNGARY #605, she wrote

>... That people are against compensation for lost property
>as a consequence of the Jewish laws and the holocaust.

She might have said that people are against total compensation of Jews
because
under existing laws the average citizen -- without regard to religion or
ethnicity -- could receive only _partial_ compensation for illegally
confiscated property.  The law under consideration would fully compensate
Jews.  Most people feel this is unfair.

>That they hate the SZDSZ because they think that it is a "Jewish party."
> That everywhere I went someone felt compelled to say something negative
>about Jews in the media or in politics.

Who are "they"?  Eva's friends and relatives perhaps, with whom she came in
contact while in Hungary?  It can't be true of too many people since SZDSZ
is the second largest party in Parliament and is part of the governing
coalition.
They are unpopular today, together with their coalition partner the
Socialists
because of the harsh economic circumstances they are blamed for, rightly or
wrongly.

Elsewhere she wrote:

>no question that the general antipathy
> toward Soros is motivated by a large dosage of antisemitism.

This is not the first time we can read expressions of Eva's extreme
sensitivity.
Please, Eva, don't look for antisemitism everywhere.  Has it ever occured to
you
that it is precisely such statements that elicit antisemitic reactions?  What

good is it to provoke ugly sentiments?  If one were to follow your example
and
attempt a medical diagnosis, one might suspect a persecution complex.

>I must have dreamt all that, I guess.
>
>        Eva Balogh

No, Eva.  Your fantasies may well seem very real to you.

Regards,

Ferenc
+ - Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Eva Balogh wrote:

Ferenc Novak wrote:
> I usually enjoy reading Eva Balogh's contributions when she writes about the
>  topic of her expertise, namely Hungarian history of the early 20th century.
> It is when she ventures outside that safe zone that she tends to misspeak
> herself.  That happens when she embarks on topics she knows next to nothing
> about, and/or where she seems to find herself personally involved.

How is that for patronizing style ?

> >That they hate the SZDSZ because they think that it is a "Jewish party."
> > That everywhere I went someone felt compelled to say something negative
> >about Jews in the media or in politics.
>
> Who are "they"?  Eva's friends and relatives perhaps, with whom she came in
> contact while in Hungary?  It can't be true of too many people since SZDSZ
> is the second largest party in Parliament and is part of the governing
> coalition.
> They are unpopular today, together with their coalition partner the
> Socialists
> because of the harsh economic circumstances they are blamed for, rightly or
> wrongly.

If you seriously believe that such a finding by Eva Balogh is an isolated
case of having a particularly nasty family in Hungary, perhaps you should
start following the Hungarian media.

On the political right, the SzDSz has always been mentioned at the same breath
with 'cosmopolitan, culturally foreign elements trying to undermine Hungary'.
Sometimes this euphemism is clearly spelled out as standing for Jewish.  This
has been the case from the beginning, regardless of the political fortunes or
governmental responsibilities of the party, and the further right you look
the less reliance there is on euphemisms.

> Elsewhere she wrote:
>
> >no question that the general antipathy
> > toward Soros is motivated by a large dosage of antisemitism.
>
> This is not the first time we can read expressions of Eva's extreme
> sensitivity.
> Please, Eva, don't look for antisemitism everywhere.  Has it ever occured to
> you
> that it is precisely such statements that elicit antisemitic reactions?  What
> good is it to provoke ugly sentiments?  If one were to follow your example
> and
> attempt a medical diagnosis, one might suspect a persecution complex.

Likewise, criticism of Soros has almost entirely been from the right, and
from the beginning of such criticisms the same language was used as for the
SzDSz, outlined above.  Just remember Csurka's notorious attacks on Soros
back when he was a prominent member of the MDF.

I am always livid when people suggest that the main problem is the airing of
the family linen for all to see, not that it has some blotches on it.
Trying to pretend that ugly sentiments are only provoked by people who
criticize them is difficult no to be interpreted as a disingenuous way of
condoning them.

> >I must have dreamt all that, I guess.

> No, Eva.  Your fantasies may well seem very real to you.

I would suggest that you have problems, especially with a self-deluding
attitude to social phenomena in Hungary, rather than Eva Balogh.

George Antony
+ - Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Ferenc Novak, I am afraid, is taking too lenient a view of the current
political mood of Hungary. He is certain, for example, that I am too
sensitive toward alleged antisemitism. Or rather, that only my friends,
acquaintances, relatives are prone to snide remarks about Jews. That is my
sampling is faulty. Certainly, my sampling was not scientific but, I am
afraid, a more scientific sampling does not bring any better results. Only a
few days ago BLA electronic news service reported the findings of the
Hungarian Gallup Institute concerning antisemitism in Hungary on the basis
of voting patterns. The results are as follows. The question inquired about
"dislike of Jews," "nem kedveli a zsidokat." The list is as follows. KFGP
voters = 12%; KDNP voters = 11%, MSZD voters = 7%; MDF voters = 6%; FIDESZ
voters = 6%;l SZDSZ voters = 4%. One's first reaction is: that's not too
bad. But then add up these percentages to get the reaction of all voters: it
is 46%. I think that's quite substantial, especially if you consider that
Csurka's MIEP voters were in counted and that only 60-odd percent of
eligible people voted.

        Let's add to that the antisemitic remarks uttered when Gyorgy
Szabad, former speaker of the house, tried to speak at the MDF meeting which
voted for Lezsak as party chief. These people were not ordinary voters--they
were party leaders of the MDF. Or, the events of the Torgyan meeting on
March 14 in front of the parliament. Antisemitic remarks were abundant in
addition to such utterings by Torgyan: liberals are not Hungarians.

        Also, Ferenc Novak is mistaken about the standing of the SZDSZ at
the moment. It is true that the SZDSZ was the second largest party in May
1994. It sure isn't today. The second largest party at the moment is Mr.
Torgyan's Smallholders, neck to neck with the MSZP (around 27 percent). The
SZDSZ which had 22% of the electorate behind it today perhaps has 10 percent
suppport.

        Ferenc Novak is not the first one who thinks that my place should
only be "history." They enjoy--they claim on the Forum--my remarks on
history but Eva Balogh is a total idiot when it comes to either political
analysis or economics. The reason, allegedly, that I was trained as a
historian and know nothing about any other subject. Well, there is a little
problem with this accusation. Before I got my degree in history I spent two
years as a student of Russian and East European Studies, an
interdisciplinary program in which I took many, many courses on political
science and economics as pertaining to the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe.
Too many for my taste, to tell you the truth, because I have the usual
historian's prejudice toward political science. But to be an observer of
current politics, one doesn't have to take any courses in political science.
One has to follow the news (and I do) and has to have a good nose (jo
szimat). And I think that I have a very good nose: I can assess political
situations extremely fast. In December 1993 after only a week in Hungary, I
knew that the MSZP would win the elections with an overwhelming majority. At
that time the polls still didn't indicate yet the full extent of the their
victory. I also had a very strong hunch that the SZDSZ would lose its
popularity if it joined the coalition.

>No, Eva.  Your fantasies may well seem very real to you.

        I hate to disappoint you but I am an extremely solid sort of person.
Both feet solidly on the ground. I very rarely have fantasies. Especially
not the political kind.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Main St. and Wall St. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>What?  You don't like, "budding philosopher"?  You're fortunate to catch
me
>in a good mood.  So... spin it again, Vanna!  Oh, all right!  How about
>"deflowered philosopher"?  Seems to add a bit of dignity and worldliness,
>wouldn't you say?
>
>Joe Szalai

There's a lot of love on this newsgroup.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- For those of us with an interest in gardening, Joe, how about
offering some advice on what kinds of peppers we can plant this spring
that would be authentic for use in Hungarian dishes? Remember, we don't
have all that many Hungarians in North Carolina, so I'm going to need some
varieties that are easily obtainable down here. Thanks.
+ - Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.Balogh wrote:

>Hungarian Gallup Institute concerning antisemitism in Hungary on the basis
>of voting patterns. The results are as follows. The question inquired about
>"dislike of Jews," "nem kedveli a zsidokat." The list is as follows. KFGP
>voters = 12%; KDNP voters = 11%, MSZD voters = 7%; MDF voters = 6%; FIDESZ
>voters = 6%;l SZDSZ voters = 4%. One's first reaction is: that's not too
>bad. But then add up these percentages to get the reaction of all voters: it
>is 46%. I think that's quite substantial, especially if you consider that
>Csurka's MIEP voters were in counted and that only 60-odd percent of
>eligible people voted.

Let us perform a simple FICTIVE calculation:
            dislike jewish          total membership         %

FKGP              12                      100                12
KDNP              11                      100                11
MSZP               7                      100                 7
MDF                6                      100                 6
FIDESZ             6                      100                 6
SZDSZ            400                    10000                 4
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL            442                    10500                4.21


Bravo Eva, bravo. Where did you learn Mathematics?

Janos
+ - Re: leadership, etc (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Eva Durant
> says:
>
>I was under the impression, that when Croatia declared independence,
>minority rights were not guaranteed, and ethnic cleansing started.
>I've seen cold-blooded horror on both sides.

Yes, but it really started in earnest with Serbian aggression in their
initial attack on Eastern Slavonia. I'm not an apologist for Croatian
ethnic cleansing, but initially decent Croats tried to reassure the Serbs
in Croatian territory, particularly the chief of the Croatian Police
Militia, Jozip Kir. He was assassinated by Croatian thugs for his efforts.

>> on this. My experience tells me that strength of leadership is very
>> important, whatever political system prevails, and coming across examples
>> in history tends to reinforce this. This is also true of communities
>> (rather than large ethnic-national groups.)
>
>There is no such a thing as one-person leadership,

Naturally, no leader ever works in a vacuum. They need supporters and
allies, but the strength, charisma and wisdom of a leader influences
all this. Take Napoleon Bonaparte, for example: he only achieved (without
pretending that he was necessarily *enlightened*) his conquests through
strength, charisma and *military wisdom*.

>anyway
>certain cliques of the financial/industrial powers are fighting for
>power, and the interests of such a clique that determines
>the policies/character of a goverment.  The character
>of today's lot is shortsightedness even in their own best
>interests, no long term planning, panic measures and sheer madness.
>Frightening...

No disagreement here...

> Take work, for instance:
>> if you have an unimaginative and negative boss at the top of a corporation
>> (or whatever) hierarchy, his outlook will tend to eventually permeate
>> throughout the organization.
>
>And if the market/interestrates/currency change, there is
>a bankrupcy, whatever is the style of the leadership.

I was using the positive/negative corporate boss model to illustrate
the qualities of leadership and the effect it has on the workforce.
Of course, should our hypothetical boss be unable to foresee market
changes, etc, he would be classed as incompetent at his job and wouldn't
fit in with our *ideal leader* scenario (although nobody's perfect;
Even our good business leader might suffer a setback, or two, now and
again, and would presumably be expected to bounce back from such setbacks.)
>
>> A strong enlightened boss who hires the right
>> people and inspires the rest will have a positive effect, etc. I've come
>> across this over the years and the difference it can make not only in the
>> workplace, but also on peoples' lives generally, is striking. Similarly,
>> in politics, the same effect takes place in the psyche of a nation (Britain
>> is still trying to recover from the cynical and depressing Thatcher years!)
>>
>
>In a large organisation the top man has no such a determining
>role,

The larger the organization, the more difficult it must be to control,
but I think it too sweeping to say that the top person has NO such
determining role, period. I suggest that the best bosses, in any type
of organization (including government, etc) have exactly this determining
role and make it very much their business to have it. But how many such
bosses are there is a good question.

>that's partly why most people are dismayed by the
>unbelievable salaries of these folk.

Absolutely.

>The more people have a chance to contribute opinion/
>knowledge/information is the better.

Hmm, okay. We're doing something like this on Usenet, after all.
But, I'm not sure that anyone could run an organization on such
a chaotic basis. The leadership should keep themselves in contact
and stay informed by accessing all these opinions, but someone
has to oversee it all and take the broader view.

>I personally think Tony Blair is more openly cynical than
>Thatcher.

Blair is certainly a career politician on the crest of a wave, and
willing to do whatever is necessary to stay there, but *more openly
cynical*? Thatcher's cynicism was pretty hard to beat! As to who
was/is more open about their cynicism I'm still considering....hmmm

I think Thatcher actually believed in some of the
>demagogy she permeated. For awhile.

Yes, she was always convinced of her own infallibilty, even when
she's obviously utterly wrong! She exuded an arrogance that was
difficult to be believe, yet so many people swallowed her crap
hook, line and sinker!

>But essentially they are just pressured by different
>interest-groups of "captains of industry" -well, actually,
>city-financiers)

Yes, agreed. Take the Gulf War: not only were the Western allies
and Saudi Arabia (besides a few other contributors) joined by interests
in protecting oil prices (for their own benefit) but the war provided
a showcase for the armaments industry (the most lucrative business on
the planet.) Immediately after the war most of the latest weaponry and
technology used in Desert Storm was on sale at an international armaments
trade fair that *suddenly* happened in SE Asia (Singapore, I think.)
The Falklands war was another exercise in cynicism. Galtieri was
was about to be ousted and played his last card by invading the
Malvenas (a popularly emotive issue for a long time in Argentina)
while Thatcher, who was also terribly unpopular at the time (and had
advance intelligence reports of impending invasion), allowed it to
happen so that *she* could come to the rescue (like the US cavalry in
all those westerns) and keep the City (business centre of London) happy
with another term in office for the Tories, plus being able to deal in
all the armaments *necessary* necessary for the campaign. Galtieri
and Thatcher had a real *unholy alliance* of sorts over the Falklands!
>
>> Furthermore, I'm not entirely convinced that our current understanding
>> and practice of democracy is necessarily the best system, anyway.
>
>I am pretty sure is not...
>
>
>> It could
>> be argued that democracy really amounts to nothing more than *mob rule*
>> (demos=people, kratos=power); is that enlightened?
>
>
>So people = mob????
>
>mob means uneducated and violent.
>So if you want
>an educated and "civilised" electorate, you have to
>have funds for education and a decent standard of living...

Yes! This is why modern (so-called) democracy is such a farce.

>> as practised in Britain (for instance) doesn't seem much like people power
>> to me; parliament is still run by professional politicians with certain
>> vested interests that rarely have much to do with the real welfare of their
>> citizens (with a few notable exceptions.) BTW Did Saudi Arabia ever have an
>> enlightened leader comparable to Akbar?
>>
>
>I agree, I don't think Britain is a democracy in practice.
>I have no idea about Saudi history,
>
>> I still find that the best examples of historical *Golden Ages* coincide
>> with dictatorial, yet benevolent, philosopher-kings.
>
>But the times of kings has long gone!!  It worked with
>the pyramidal feudal society a long time ago.
>You must play other games, not only chess...:-)

Kings, schmings, emperors, presidents, prime ministers, honchos, whoever!
Plato used the expression philosopher-king (as it's translated in the
edition I have) and I borrowed it as a *manner of speaking* as is often
done in discussions about these issues. Philosopher-king is a sorta cliche.
Replace *king* with *leader*, then, you pedantic kill-joy! :-)

Regards,

George

George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
* Independent Commodore Products Users' Group UK * C=64 stuff wanted *
* ACCU ** ARM Club ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list *
+ - Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Given that Eva Balogh is so extremely content with her amazing
talents, one is eager to learn the explanation of her (unintended)
display of unbielievable stupidity. She now stands naked with
everyone to see that doesn not even approach a fourth grader
(of the ELEMENTARY school!) when it comes to calculating
simple percentages! Poor Eva invokes jokes when Hungarian
population had to endure exactly such "bosses" (mostly party
secretaries, university "professors" of Marxism-Leninism, policemen
 and members of "voluntary police"), who never let up in arrogance
of her brand, but were likewise so limited in intellecutal powers that
did not even notice how ridicuolus they were. Eva Balogh is closest
to a Michurinian hybrid of a "voluntary policewomen" (o"nke'ntes
rendo"r) and the Marxism-Leninism professor (that she confessed
she had trained for even after escaping the 56 revolution to the
West!). Her relapse is not suprprising at all -- it only questions claims
that she ever had to do anything with Yale. As a white collar employee,
that is.

Next time she will convince us that actually 120% of Hungarians
are antisemite, since every month 10% is reported, and there are
12 months of the year, as we all know. One suspects that Eva
(who gives a new meaning to Miss Balogh...) probably moonlights
for the infamous Sonda Ipsos ("Sanda Ipse") which must use her
"new math" to come up with absurd popularity figures for such
universally hated political figures such as Arpad Goncz, to be known
as a former prison informant. Most Hungarians just call him "rat"
(patkany) yet Sanda Ipse features him nonchalantly as the "most popular
politician" for years!  I bet Eva Balogh asked one hundred people, who
each liked Goncz about 1% much -- totalling a perfect 100% popularity,
since 100 x 1 = 100!

At least now we know whom we are dealing with - we suspected
all along!

So much for intellectual stupidity. When it comes to emotional
weirdness, just watch out and listen what kind of absurd excuses she
thinks you are damn enough to believe!
+ - Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> E.Balogh wrote:
>
> >Hungarian Gallup Institute concerning antisemitism in Hungary on the basis
> >of voting patterns. The results are as follows. The question inquired about
> >"dislike of Jews," "nem kedveli a zsidokat." The list is as follows. KFGP
> >voters = 12%; KDNP voters = 11%, MSZD voters = 7%; MDF voters = 6%; FIDESZ
> >voters = 6%;l SZDSZ voters = 4%. One's first reaction is: that's not too
> >bad. But then add up these percentages to get the reaction of all voters: it
> >is 46%. I think that's quite substantial, especially if you consider that
> >Csurka's MIEP voters were in counted and that only 60-odd percent of
> >eligible people voted.


It really is not additive like that, Eva, think it through again.

0.12(kfgp)+0.11(kdnp)+0.07(mszd)+0.06(mdf)+0.06(fidesz)+0.04(szdsz) is
not = 0.46(kfgp+kdnp+mszd+mdf+fidesz+szdsz), i.e., 0.46(total), but
0.12(kfgp)/total + 0.11(kdnp)/total... etc. The percentage is far lower
than you think, even if still too high, no doubt. And I cannot follow
what you added about counting MIEP, when it's not counted, and that only
60% voted. How about the 40 that did not? They were not asked, so they
are outside the poll, right? They may well be the largest segment.

L. J. Elteto
+ - Paprika/Peppers (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam Stowe wrote:

>P.S. -- For those of us with an interest in gardening, Joe, how about
>offering some advice on what kinds of peppers we can plant this spring
>that would be authentic for use in Hungarian dishes? Remember, we don't
>have all that many Hungarians in North Carolina, so I'm going to need some
>varieties that are easily obtainable down here. Thanks.

Growing peppers in Canada is a challenge.  For the most part they don't
taste like the peppers I've eaten in Hungary.  One exception to this is a
variety called Shepherd.  It is large, elongated, and turns a darkish red
when it's ripe.  It is the sweetest and fleshiest pepper I've managed to
grow.  The store bought Bell pepper pales by comparison.

You should grow peppers that are sweet, crisp, and fleshy.  Unsweet peppers
with a thick skin will do an injustice to any Hungarian recipe.  If you
can't find Shepherd then try growing Sweet Hungarian or Gypsie.

Pepper plants thrive in warm, sunny, rich soils.  They don't like periods of
drought.  Don't be disappointed if your peppers don't perform well.  There
are years, like last year, when the peppers are great and prolific.  Other
years they can be dismal.  Since I don't change the way I garden from year
to year, I assume that our Canadian weather has a lot to do with the quality
of the crop.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: leadership, etc (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:15 PM 3/19/96 -0500, George Szaszvari wrote:

>Naturally, no leader ever works in a vacuum. They need supporters and
>allies, but the strength, charisma and wisdom of a leader influences
>all this. Take Napoleon Bonaparte, for example: he only achieved (without
>pretending that he was necessarily *enlightened*) his conquests through
>strength, charisma and *military wisdom*.

Political leadership has no meaning any more and there is no such thing as
economic leadership.  "Natural" economic "forces" alone determine todays
politics.  Real power is economic power.  Democracy has been usurped!
Whomever you vote for, the government always wins.  And the governments
major goal is to ensure that its policies result in a good credit rating on
the international bond market.  Everything else is negotiable and people are
disposable.

Prove me wrong.  Tell me it ain't so.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:26 PM 3/19/96 -0500, Andras Szucs wrote:

>Given that Eva Balogh is so extremely content with her amazing
>talents, one is eager to learn the explanation of her (unintended)
>display of unbielievable stupidity.

Give it a rest, Andras!  Perhaps you've never made a mathematical mistake
before.  I have, and I'm sure most of us have.  To dwell on it shows your
intellectual prowess, or, more than likely, lack thereof.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 2:40 PM 3/19/96, Ferenc Novak wrote:
>I usually enjoy reading Eva Balogh's contributions when she writes about the
> topic of her expertise, namely Hungarian history of the early 20th century.
>It is when she ventures outside that safe zone that she tends to misspeak
>herself.  That happens when she embarks on topics she knows next to nothing
>about, and/or where she seems to find herself personally involved.
>
>A case in point:  In HUNGARY #605, she wrote
>
>>... That people are against compensation for lost property
>>as a consequence of the Jewish laws and the holocaust.
>
>She might have said that people are against total compensation of Jews
>because
>under existing laws the average citizen -- without regard to religion or
>ethnicity -- could receive only _partial_ compensation for illegally
>confiscated property.  The law under consideration would fully compensate
>Jews.  Most people feel this is unfair.

Why do you say that Eva is unfamiliar with the topic? Why are you a better
authority? You criticize her for saying "they" but you are talking about
"most people".  How would you know the opinion of most people? Do you mean
the ones who voted for Csurka? In fact, he and his party and newspaper who
is waging a slanderous hate campaign against Soros - he, who was totally
rejected by the voters of Hungary - they, the people of Hungary.

Peter I. Hidas

Hungarian Studies
Department Of Russian and Slavic Studies
McGill University
Montreal, Quebec, Canada

+ - Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:26 PM 3/19/96 -0700,  wrote:

lots of uncivilized words.

Yes, Balogh Eva did have the numbers wrong. But she is a historian, not a
mathematician. Drawing the kind of conclusions
 draws is a nonsense.

Actually I am happy that only 10% or so of the Hungarians are antisemites (I
would be happier with 0%). I would not want to belong to a group that
contains 46 or 60% of the likes of Csurka and co.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Main St. and Wall St. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Felado :  [United Kingdom]
>
> Fascinating stuff. Would this mean that in the UK the unemployment is
> "kept" at 10% or so to keep down inflation?
I don't think so. Unlike the US Fed, the Bank of England is controlled
by politicians (The Chancellor of the Exchecquer or some such title) and
for them to raise interest rates to keep unemployment from getting too low
is unthinkable. Even if it weren't, nobody thinks getting from 10% to
say 6% unemployment would put serious inflationary pressure on the economy.

> If there is no such monatery control
> via interest-rate manipulation, what happens?
Whether such monetary control is exercised by the Fed is unclear (the market
was betting that it would be, but don't mistake a bet for the actual thing --
in the past decade unemployment has never been low enough to trigger this
policy) so the question is hypothetical for the US. For England it's doubly
hypothetical, unemployment being way above the inflationary threshold and
the Bank of England being a pawn of the government.

> I think it has been tried.
I doubt it. The whole thing only makes sense when the pool of unemployed
labor dries up, which happens perhaps around 5%, perhaps around 3%, but
definitely not at 10% unemployment. At 10% there are lots of people who
actually would want to work -- at 2% you only find the "lumpen" element
that prefers to live on the dole.

> I wonder what would be the corresponding level of
> "acceptable" unemployment in HUngary?
Hard to say. I think the 2-3% level applies pretty much overall. In Hungary
matters are harder to discern because the grey and black economies are so
large. But inflationary pressure from full employment is the least of
the government's worries in Hungary, since it's a scenario that comes into
play when the economy is hot to the point of overheating.

> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Canada]
>
> With great amusement and an unmistakable smirk on my face, I've been reading
> this mini debate between Sam Stowe and Andras Kornai.  Does anyone else on
> this list find it ironic, strange, or perhaps just prophetic, that a
> linguist explains the workings of the capitalist economic system to a
> budding philosopher?  I wonder what my world view would be like if I had
> studied economics from a linguist?  Maybe I wouldn't be such a stubborn
> stick-in-the-mud.
Joe is of course entirely right. Having no qualifications in economics I
should perhaps refrain from saying anything on the matter. Yet Joe wouldn't
take the trouble to read the works of even Nobel-prize-winning economists
(certainly not if their views are not the ones Joe happpens to hold anyway)
so qualifications are not very relevant. At any rate this is the net,
everybody with a keyboard is an instant expert on everything, including
yours truly,

Andra1s Kornai

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