Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 837
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-11-04
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 To B.E. and L.Iordache (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
2 BOHAR FAMILY INFORMATION- from Mary Campbell (nee BENZC (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
3 Restricted freedom or "Transylvania's seven deadly sins (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
5 Model engines (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: To B.E. and L.Iordache (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: To B.E. and L.Iordache (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
8 The Summons-----Szozat---------Vorosmarty (mind)  76 sor     (cikkei)
9 Past and present (mind)  105 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  50 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Past and present (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: only one explanation (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
17 last names (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: only one explanation (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Taxonomy (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  90 sor     (cikkei)

+ - To B.E. and L.Iordache (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Kedves B.E and L.Iordache,

when I answered to B.E's first post about Laszlo Hunyadi my point was to
show that Laszlo Hunyadi was not a national hero or an important person
of the Hungarian history (at least not comparable to the other two
Hunyadis). It was sad to see that B.E used him for her weekly
Hungary-bashing. Also, it was funny to read that Eva did not know much
more about the story than what Erkel's opera says about it.
As far as Janos and Matyas Hunyadi are concerned, I consider them
Hungarian. Janos Hunyadi's father was from Wallachia (this is what I
ment by that 'despite their national origin...'), but his mother was
hungarian. At least this is what the Hungarian high-school history books
have about him. Matyas Hunyadi's mother was hungarian, so if all the
previous is true he had one single Wallachian grandfather.
Also their activity was mainly connected to Hungary. Matyas was Hungarian
king, while his father was general-captain and one of the most
powerful aristocrat of Hungary. This itself makes them Hungarians for me.
Because of their very positive role in the defence and development of Hungary
I consider them 'national heroes'.
If I am wrong that is my problem. If any of you disagrees with anything I wrote
about them that is fine to me, but I am sorry, I am not going to argue about
the definition of national heroe or who is Hungarian. I don't want to waste
my time to an endless and pointless debate.

J.Zs
+ - BOHAR FAMILY INFORMATION- from Mary Campbell (nee BENZC (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I am trying to locate family in Budapest.

My name is Mary Campbell (nee BENZCE) and my mother's name was Victoria BENZCE
(nee BOHAR) who moved to Canada in 1929.

I have cousins in Hungary, one being Barnak ZOLTAN (his mother's name is/was
Margaret ZOLTAN (nee BOHAR) and it is he that I'm trying to locate.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you

Mary Campbell (nee BENZCE)

c/o Vince Wardhaugh


=================
+ - Restricted freedom or "Transylvania's seven deadly sins (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 00:16:41 -0500
From: 
Reply-To: 
Organization: aarchinc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: soc.culture.magyar
Subject: Restricted freedom or "Transylvania's seven deadly sins"
Apparently-To: >

Subject:
              Restricted freedom or "Transylvania's seven deadly sins"
        Date:
              Sat, 2 Nov 1996 07:27:46 GMT
       From:
              Mihai Caragiu >
Organization:
              mathematics department WSU
 Newsgroups:
              soc.culture.romanian


Anthony Malczanek wrote:

> Transylvania is the land where for the first time in
> the world, by an act, religious freedom was granted

The diet of Torda voted in 1568 religious freedom for exactly
four rites, i.e., the four churches of the three "favorite
nations": the Evangelical, the Lutheran, the Roman-Catholic
and the Unitarian Church. Wesselenyi counts like this: 3 "Received
Nations" + 4 "Received Religions" = 7 Deadly Sins of Transylvania!
A significant part, if not the majority, of the inhabitants of
Transylvania belonged to the "Non-Received" Orthodox Church, so
it is hard to agree with the official hungarian point of view
on this subject... The Romanians lived then in the...empty half
of the glass.

Regards,
Mihai Caragiu
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

S or G Farkas > wrote:

> it was very common for European countries to import
>monarchs, I assume because they wanted a "real" king. The Romanian monarchy
>was based on imports, fact that does not stop King Michael (who is in exile,
>I think in Switzerland) to consider himself Romanian. Can we say then, that
>regardless of their ethnic origin a king is Hungarian if he is Hungary's
>king (maybe except when he resides in Vienna, when he is Austro-Hungarian;-)?
>

Eva has already made the point that extreme caution should be used
when applying 19th or 20th century concepts for interpreting 15th
century events. The rising of 19th century Romania was a process
driven by the idea of "nation," a term understood as encompassing
everyone of the same ethnic origin. That the king was not Romanian,
did not represent a contradiction. A well-connected, foreign king was
selected for preserving the union of the Romanian principalities, and
for acting as an impartial referee between the main political parties.
With the last goal in mind, the Constitution specifically forbade the
king (and his successors) from taking a Romanian wife.

When it comes to earlier times, in the 15th century Hungary, the
"nation" encompass only those persons who possessed special rights and
immunities. Thus, the so-called "three nations" of Transylvania
included only the nobles, but not the Magyar, Szekler or Saxon
peasants. A Romanian nation was not recognized  because, for several
reasons,  there was no Romanian upper class. Politics in the 15th
century Hungary was not ethnic oriented. The king was not "ethnically
Hungarian,"  Matyas came closest to this label, and many of the
leading clans were of non-Magyar origin. Feudal and religious
dependence prevailed over ethnic identity.

Regards,

Liviu Iordache
+ - Model engines (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I am interested in purchasing model airplane, car and boat engines
manufactured or used in Hungary.  I would also be interested in
information and documentation including, photos, magazine articles and
books.

Please let me know if you have anyone has any suggestions.

Sincerely - Joe
+ - Re: To B.E. and L.Iordache (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:22 AM 11/3/96 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

<snip>
>Because of their very positive role in the defence and development of
>Hungary I consider them 'national heroes'.  If I am wrong that is my
>problem. If any of you disagrees with anything I wrote about them that is
>fine to me, but I am sorry, I am not going to argue about the definition of
>national heroe or who is Hungarian. I don't want to waste my time to an
>endless and pointless debate.
>
>J.Zs

Did someone pee on your Corn Flakes this morning, Janos?  You've become such
a crab in the last month!  Maybe you should take a break from this newsgroup.

Joe Szalai

"Unhappy the land that is in need of heroes."
                  Bertolt Brecht
+ - Re: To B.E. and L.Iordache (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:22 AM 11/3/96 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>Kedves B.E and L.Iordache,

>It was sad to see that B.E used him for her weekly
>Hungary-bashing.

        You know what, I am getting to be very tired of your accusations
about "Hungary-bashing." The only thing I am trying to do is to explain to
you that you cannot talk about "nation states," and "national heroes" in the
fifteenth century. This kind of nationalist interpretation of the past will
not lead anywhere. And please don't bring up the United States and American
"patriotism." The United States is a superpower far away from Europe and
Europe's nation states on top of each other. Hungary is not the United
States. Hungary is a small country, surrounded by, if I count right, seven
countries!!! Hungary is heading toward a united Europe--the European
Union--and thus it cannot afford the kind of nationalism you are advocating.
Because in that European Union one will have to deemphasize those features
which divide us from our neighbors and emphasize the ones we have in common.
Including our history.

>Also, it was funny to read that Eva did not know much
>more about the story than what Erkel's opera says about it.

        Funny or not funny this is what most Hungarians know about the story
and this was exactly my point: nationalist interpretation of history through
commonly held legends, such as expressed in Erkel's operas, makes a greater
impact on the population' thinking about the past than what is learned in
school.

>As far as Janos and Matyas Hunyadi are concerned, I consider them
>Hungarian.

        There was a continuous Magyarization of the nobility: German, Croat,
Wallachian, Serbian, whatever, nobles, who ended up in the service of the
Hungarian court became Hungarianized. You don't have to count how many
ancestors were this or that. By the way, this is how the Romanians of
Transylvania lost their own native nobility.

>Because of their very positive role in the defence and development of Hungary
>I consider them 'national heroes'.
>If I am wrong that is my problem. If any of you disagrees with anything I wrot
e
>about them that is fine to me, but I am sorry, I am not going to argue about
>the definition of national heroe or who is Hungarian. I don't want to waste
>my time to an endless and pointless debate.

        Unfortunately, this is not a "pointless" debate. This is very basic
to our understanding of the middle ages and early modern Europe.

        Eva Balogh
+ - The Summons-----Szozat---------Vorosmarty (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Here is another beautiful translation dedicated especially to all
those who escaped in 1956:

The Summons- Szozat Mihaly Vvrvsmarty 1836

O Magyar, keep immovably
        Your native country's trust
For it has borne you, and at death
        Will cosecrate your dust!
No other spot in all the world
        Can touch your heart as home;
Let fortune bless or fortune curse,
        From hence you shall not roam.

This is the country that your sires
        Have    shed their blood to claim;
Throughout a thousand years not one
        But adds a sacred name.
'Twas here Arpad's mighty sword
        Ordained your land to be,
And here the arms of Hunyad broke
        The chains of slavery.

Here Freedom's blood-stain'd flag has waved
        Above the Magyar head;
And here in age-long struggles fell
        Our best and noblest, dead.
Inspite of long calamity
        And centuries of strife,
Our strenght, though weaken'd, is not spent;
        Our country still has life.

To you, O nations of the world,
        We call with passion'd breath;
"Should not a thousand years of pain
        Bring liberty --- or death?"
 It can not be that all in vain
        So many hearts have bled,
That haggard from heroic breasts
         So many souls have fled!

It cannot be that mind and strenght
        And consecrated will
Are wasted in a hopeless cause
        Beneath the curse of ill!
It yet shall come, if come it must,
        That better, fairer day
For which a myriad thousand lips
        In fervent yearning pray.

Or there shall come, if come it must,
        A death of fortitude;
And round about our graves shall stand
        A nation wash'd in blood
Around the graves where we shall lie
        A weeping world will come,
And millions will in pity gaze
        Upon the martyr's tomb.

Then Magyar, keep unshakeably
        Your native country's trust
For it has borne you, and at death
        Will consecrate your dust!
No other spot in all the world
        Can touch your heart as home;
Let fortune bless or fortune curse,
        From hence you shall not roam.

Reference:
Watson Kirkconnell (1895-1977)
Acadia University, Nova Scotia
Hungarian Helicon
Published by the Szechenyi Society Inc.
Calgary, Alta., Canada 1986

Eva Kende B.Sc. author of "Eva's Hungarian Kitchen".
+ - Past and present (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

A slight change of topic, but only slight. Believe it or not, what
comes next has something to do with Laszlo Hunyadi!

        While we have been arguing about the twelfth, fifteenth, and
seventeenth centuries, the Hungarian government has been grappling with a
huge corruption scandal. The scandal shook the very foundations of the
MSZP-SZDSZ coalition and the trust of the population in the country's
government. Right now, the Horn government's reputation is lower than the
Antall-Boross government's ever was!

        In brief, the privatization office, overseen by a minister without
portfolio, Tamas Suchman (MSZP), was using outside mediators to do its
bidding with the local governments concerning land values. That is, if a
state-owned company is sold, according to a 1992 law, the value of the land
on which that factory stands goes to the local government. Some of these
factories were not worth much and the land on which they stand is often more
valuable than the price the privatization office received for the whole
company. Therefore, the privatization office was reluctant to pay the price
the local governments demanded and which would have been a fair market
price. And here comes the role of the mediators. The mediator was supposed
to convince the local governments that it is to their advantage to accept
lesser amounts because otherwise they might not get anything for a long
time, while the disputes are in the very slow courts. The mediator in this
case was an enterprising woman in her forties called Marta Tocsik who
managed to receive 840 million Fts ($5.6 million) for her "good offices"
between January and September 1996. Not bad pay for a woman who did finish
law school but it seems never took the bar exam. Her fee was 10 percent of
the total monies which exchanged hands between the local governments and the
privatization office. That is an incredible amount of money by any standard,
but in a country where a sizeable portion of the population lives below
poverty level the outcry is indiscribable. However, it is not against the
law to pay mediators "success fees." The real problem is that it is almost
certain that Marta Tocsik was simply a "frontman" for people involved with
campaign funds for the two governing parties. Most likely the larger portion
of this money were destined to end up in the coffers of the MSZP and the SZDSZ.

        The outcry was so huge that Gyula Horn, very reluctantly and after
too long a delay, fired Tamas Suchman, who claims that he knew nothing about
the affair. Tamas Suchman, totally convinced of his innocence, in his
terrible sorrow wrote an "open letter" to his party. And this is where paths
of Tamas Suchman and Laszlo Hunyadi cross. The letter, how shall I say, was
not the kind politicians write after being fired. Most of the fired
politicians have the good sense of not writing any letter, but Tamas Suchman
is a politician from Eastern Europe and that may account for the tone of his
letter. And let me quote from a wonderful article by Julianna R. Szekely, an
astute political observer (Magyar Hirlap, October 16):

        "Suchman nyilt levele parttarsaihoz, a kozvelemenyhez, nem azert a
legszomorubb level hosszu evek ota, mert egy szomoru, bukott miniszter irta.
Hanem mert ervrendszeret, gondolkodasmodjat, stilusat tekintve a mult
szazadban is irodhatott volna. A magyarsag barmely bus, verzivataros
szazadaban, barmely kudarcban es csalodasban, melyben elkovetok es aldozatok
sosem arrol beszeltek, amirol kellett volna. Sosem tenyekrol, szaraz, kisse
unalmas, prozai modorban. Mindig a lelek haborgasarol, az ellenseg
csalardsagarol, a bajtarsak arulasarol. Hoskoltemenyben, balladaban, eposzban.
        "Ha egy privatizacios miniszter levele 1996-ban tobbszor, de
legalabbis nagyobb nyomatekkal emleget bunt es bunhodest, torest, zuzast,
onmarcangolast, szolidaritast, sorsot, gyermeki hiszteriat, mint a torvenyek
s a pontos jogkorok hianyat, akkor nem a korrupcio miatt vagyunk tavolabb
Europatol, mint kepzeltuk volna.....
        "Suchman Tamas, akit mara mar `jeges nyugalom szallt' meg, nehany
napja meg sebzett vadkent, magaba roskadva rugta a szaraz faleveleket
otthon, Marcaliban. Megrenditve ezzel nehany frakciotarsat, s tan egy kicsit
a kozvelemenyt is.
        "Mert lassuk be, csalodott lelkunknek megiscsak kedvesebb az, aki a
vadlottak padjarol verset cital. Aki ugy nez rank, mint egy masik csalodott
lelek, nem pedig mellebeszel, vagy cinikusan hallgat. Kar, hogy ez megint az
erzelmek terepe. Az osi magyar terep, amelyen oly otthonosan mozgunk. De
ahonnan nem vezet ut semmifele valosagos, prozai Europaba."

English translation:

        "Suchman's open letter to his fellow party members and to the public
is one of the saddest letters which has appeared in print for the longest
time. It isn't so sad because a very mournful, fallen minister wrote it but
because given his whole reasoning, his whole way of thinking, and his style,
Suchman's letter could have been written in the last century. It could have
been written in any sorrowful, blood-soaked century of the nation, in any
failure, in any disappointment, when the perpetrators as well as the victims
never talked about what they should have. They never talked about facts,
dry, a bit boring facts in a prosaic way. No, they always talked about the
turbulence of the soul, the deceit of the enemy, the betrayal of the
friends. And in heroic poems, in ballads, and in epics.
        "When a letter by the minister of privatization in 1996 mentions
more often, but at least with greater emphasis, such things as crime and
punishment, pounding and smashing, self-reproach, solidarity, fate,
child-like hysteria rather than laws and lack of exact jurisdiction, then we
are much farther from Europe than we until now believed and the reason is
not corruption....
        "Tamas Suchman, who by now is `seized by icy quietude', but a few
days ago, he was like a wounded animal. In his completely broken-down state
he was sitting on the stoop of his house in Marcali, kicking the dry, fallen
leaves. He managed to move many of his comradess, and perhaps a little the
general public as well.
        "Because, let's face it, someone who is reciting poetry while
sitting on the dock is still pleasing to our disappointed souls. And the
someone who keeps looking at us is another disappointed soul; someone who is
not trying to evade; someone who is not cynically silent. Too bad that this
is the terrain of emotions. An ancient Hungarian terrain with which we are
familiar. But from there the road doesn't lead to any kind of real, prosaic
Europe."

        End. You see, history has its relevance.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
says...
<snip>..
> The rising of 19th century Romania was a process
>driven by the idea of "nation," a term understood as encompassing
>everyone of the same ethnic origin. That the king was not Romanian,
>did not represent a contradiction. A well-connected, foreign king was
>selected for preserving the union of the Romanian principalities, and
>for acting as an impartial referee between the main political parties.
>With the last goal in mind, the Constitution specifically forbade the
>king (and his successors) from taking a Romanian wife.
>When it comes to earlier times, in the 15th century Hungary, the
>"nation" encompass only those persons who possessed special rights and
>immunities. Thus, the so-called "three nations" of Transylvania
>included only the nobles, but not the Magyar, Szekler or Saxon
>peasants. A Romanian nation was not recognized  because, for several
>reasons,  there was no Romanian upper class. Politics in the 15th
>century Hungary was not ethnic oriented. The king was not "ethnically
>Hungarian,"  Matyas came closest to this label, and many of the
>leading clans were of non-Magyar origin. Feudal and religious
>dependence prevailed over ethnic identity.

Could someone please explain when the term *Romanian* gained currency?
I've seen a lot of postings (and have often read in books emanating from
Romanian sources, especially Ceaucescu era) references to Romanians as
though they had a nation-state and common language going back to times
of even Dacian preeminence. Am I wrong in thinking that present day
Romanians tend to stretch this ancient Romanian heritage thing too
far? Did Wlachs, Moldavians, Szeklers, Magyars, Saxons, etc, identify
themselves as Romanians before the birth of the political entity called
Romania last century? Was there such a thing as an identifiable Romanian
person before the birth of Romania?

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ICPUG..C=64 * ARM Club..Acorn * NWLCC
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 (George Szaszvari) wrote:

>Could someone please explain when the term *Romanian* gained currency?

Although the ancient Hungarians called themselves "magyar," they
appear in documentary sources under a great variety of names, such as
Hungarians, Ungar, Ungri, Ungroi, Ougroi (all easily explained as
forms derived from the Turkish name Onogur), Turks or Avars ( the
names of one important "Barbarian" people being applied to another, a
common Byzantine practice). Let's also recall here one of the names
used by Porphyrogenitus, sabartoi asphaloi, for which a I have yet to
find an adequate explanation.

In a similar manner, Romanians always called themselves "rumi^ni," a
term derived from the Latin "romanus" (cf., ruma~ri--Istrian Vlachs,
or aruma~nu, ruma~nu, ra~ma~nu--Macedonian Vlachs). However, in the
Middle Ages, the surrounding populations designated them by the
equivalents of the name "Vlach."

>I've seen a lot of postings (and have often read in books emanating from
>Romanian sources, especially Ceaucescu era) references to Romanians as
>though they had a nation-state and common language going back to times
>of even Dacian preeminence.

As far as the common language is concerned, while the presence of
Dacian elements is highly speculative, the romance character of
Romanian language was recognized very early, and it's speakers were
considered, by all scholars, without exception, as descendants of a
Romanized population.

>Did Wlachs, Moldavians, Szeklers, Magyars, Saxons, etc, identify
>themselves as Romanians before the birth of the political entity called
>Romania last century?

As far as Wallachians and Moldavians are concerned, yes. Wallachia was
the name used by Western Europeans, but the Romanians always called
their country "Tara Ruma~neasca." Now, when it comes to Szeklers,
Magyars, and Saxons, they never identify themselves as Romanians, and
I'm extremely curious to know where did you find this information.

Regards,

Liviu Iordache
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>
>At 09:38 PM 10/31/96 -0500, Ferenc wrote, quoting me:
>
>>>The last
>>>time I saw Bank ban was 30 years ago. It was terrible then and I bet
it
>>>would be terrible now. The same is true about Laszlo Hunyadi. Poor
Erkel
>>>wasn't very talented.
>>
>>Now, Eva, who is being defensive?  Being ignorant about opera is no
great
>>sin.  There are millions of people in this country who don't know the
>>difference between opera and operation.  For all we know, they could
still be
>>perfectly good historians or whatever.  I am sure Erkel doesn't care
one whit
>>about your unexpert opinion.
>
>        I'm not a great fan of operas, with the exception of Mozart's,
but
>objectively speaking Erkel's operas have never made it in the "big wide
>world," and the usual reason for such lack of general acceptance is lack
of
>real worth. Smetana, pretty much the contemporary of Erkel and from the
same
>region, also wrote on nationalistic themes and yet his work is quite
well
>known abroad. And if you mention the name "Smetana" to someone fairly
well
>versed in music will immediately know who he was. Try that with "Erkel."
>There will be a blank stare.
>
>        Eva Balogh


I am sorry, Eva, but I disagree.  Erkel was not the only Hungarian
composer who is unknown in the West.  The other day I saw a video of
Sybill by Jacobi.  I was amazed how good it was.  I could only compare it
to a good performance of Die Fledermaus.  The music is lovely - we, of
course knew quite a few arias from it.  He also wrote Leanyvasar.  I have
never-never heard any Jacobi anywhere but Hungarian broadcasts.  There is
also Goldmark's The Queen of Sheba.  On the other hand, I have never
heard of Gilbert and Sullivan until I arrived in Canada.  (I still think
I didn't miss anything - they are not to compare with their
contemporaries).  Oh, by the way, I like Erkel.

Agnes
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:39 PM 11/3/96 GMT, Liviu wrote in connection with the name Romanian:

>However, in the
>Middle Ages, the surrounding populations designated them by the
>equivalents of the name "Vlach."

        May I add here, that the Hungarians had always called the Romanians
until very recently "ola'h, pl. ola'hok," which is the Hungarian variant of
Wlach, coming into Hungarian from a Southern Slavic language, either
Croatian or Slovenian. Similarly, the Hungarian word for "Italian" is
"olasz, pl. olaszok." Originally, it meant people in general who spoke a
new-Latin language.

        And by the way, the word "ola'h" in the last few decades acquired a
pejorative meaning, but in 1910, for example, the Hungarian census called
the Romanians of Hungary, "ola'hok."

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Past and present (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh sounds somewhat victorious to find the present governing
parties corrupt. She is right to be - this also a proof, that Hungary
is ready for Europe. The only difference is, that Hungary has an even
fuzzier relationship between power and money, than the "mature
democracies" ...

+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:11 PM 11/3/96 GMT, Agnes wrote:

>I am sorry, Eva, but I disagree.  Erkel was not the only Hungarian
>composer who is unknown in the West.  The other day I saw a video of
>Sybill by Jacobi.  I was amazed how good it was.  I could only compare it
>to a good performance of Die Fledermaus.  The music is lovely - we, of
>course knew quite a few arias from it.  He also wrote Leanyvasar.  I have
>never-never heard any Jacobi anywhere but Hungarian broadcasts.  There is
>also Goldmark's The Queen of Sheba.  On the other hand, I have never
>heard of Gilbert and Sullivan until I arrived in Canada.  (I still think
>I didn't miss anything - they are not to compare with their
>contemporaries).  Oh, by the way, I like Erkel.

        I don't know about Jacobi but Goldmark can be heard here and there
on National Public Radio and, of course, Peter Goldmark, I think a grandson,
was the man who came up with LP (Long Playing) records, which was in those
days I fantastic improvement over the 33 or 45 records. What I know about
Jacobi is not much, but I think he actually died in New York sometime in the
early 1920s. As far as I know he was quite well known during his lifetime as
a composer of operettas. I am sure that he wasn't untalented but operettas
are not in vogue nowadays. Of course, the greatest operetta composer ever as
far as I am concerned was Ferenc Lehar.

        I agree that Gilbert and Sullivan are not known in Hungary (and my
feeling in Europe general) and I had never heard of their operettas before I
arrived in Canada either. On the other hand, I think they are fun.

        As far as Erkel is concerned. I tried him out (I had the complete
recording of Ban Bank at one point) on several friends who were musically
astute. He didn't cut it. I remember years ago trying to defend Erkel and
compared him to Smetana and Dvorak and I was told that his music was simply
not as good as the music of either. And the more I think about him, the more
I think that my friends were right. The only reason we think highly of him
is because he is the composer of our national anthem and our national
operas. His tunes are so familiar. But I don't think that any of us would
argue that in the gallery of Hungarian composer, Erkel can really be
compared to Liszt or Bartok. (I didn't mention Kodaly, because--please, God
help me!--I don't think he was much of a composer either. In spite of the
fact that I have an autograph of his framed in my study. Every time I listen
to Kodaly, I think of Copeland, and I hate Copeland.) Admitting all my sins,
I remain, faithfully yours,

        Eva Balogh


        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: only one explanation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Ference Novak wrote:

> I stand corrected.  There is no evidence of your parents having  willingly
> served the Kadar regime.  But I am not aware of them publicly opposing it,
> either.  To be in a prominent academic position during the Kadar years
> usually required at least a tacit recognition of the authority and legitimacy
> of the communist regime.

Living under a communist regime 'required at least a tacit recognition of the
authority and legitimacy of the communist regime'.  This applied to everybody,
not merely prominent academics.

> Professing Marxist ideology was de rigeur until
> almost the end.

You have no idea what 'de rigeur' means.  Professing Marxist ideology was
far from de rigeur: in some cases it was very much the opposite (private
conversations in intellectual circles), in other cases it was an unavoidable
rite (e.g., talking to the personnel manager of most insitutes or companies
about the possibility of any promotion).

> Hence the idea of serving, however indirectly or
> unwittingly, the communist cause.

That is guilt by association: anyone who lived under a communist regime,
accepted its authority as evidenced by not rebelling against it, and at
some time uttered anything against his/her conviction to avoid complications,
anyone who did that was 'serving the communist cause'

This leaves as untainted upstanding people only those who either did some-
thing against the regime (counted in the hundreds out of some 10 million in
Hungary) or those who left the country not to be tainted.

I presume you are among the latter: in this case, your continuing efforts to
make intellectuals who continued to live in Hungary look tainted is merely
a self-serving way of dealing with your own frustrations.

> Also, to be declared a traitor to Marxism,
> one would have to be a declared Marxist.

In the eyes of the regime, people were Marxist, by default, unless proven
otherwise.

I suggest that dealing with your own past may be more effectively done by
seeing a shrink than by insulting everybody who did not leave Hungary
when you did and even had the temerity to make a name for themselves.

George Antony
+ - last names (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Does anybody know if the last name Fabian is Hungarian?  I've been
interested in finding more out about my family and finally made a decision
to start looking.  All I know is that my grandfather's parents were from
Hungary.  Thanks!

Tari


Send me some poetry to put on my homepage
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 stop and let you go over first."
+ - Re: only one explanation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 on Nov  2 10:06:44 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #836:

<snip>

>Ferenc,
>
>I see a lot of unfairness and inequality in our society.  I've yet to see
>you oppose any of it.  Can I assume that your silence is tacit approval of
>the way things are?
>
>Joe Szalai

Joe,

As a librarian, you are probably a pretty bright fellow.  How can you write
something as silly as this?  I simply don't know what to make of such
nonsense.

Ferenc
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

  on Nov  2 19:03:32 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #836:

>If Laszlo
>Hunyadi was 24 he was considered to be a grown-up. By the way, was he
>married? By the age of 24 he should have been.

Eva,

He was engaged to one Maria Gara, at least  in the opera "Hunyadi Laszlo"

Ferenc
+ - Re: Taxonomy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 on Nov  2 09:48:55 EST in 1996 HUNGARY #836:

> Csaba's "two
>examples, out of many" is inconsequential compared to the thousands of
>references to "revolution" when people discuss the events of 1956.  And
>let's not forget the tens of millions of people around the world who call
>the events of 1956 a "revolution".
>
>Joe Szalai

Joe,

I think you are the victim of a misunderstanding.  Of course, people call the
events of 1956 "revolution".  But that does not mean they don't also consider
the term "freedom fight" an apt phrase for part of those events.  Of course,
the 1956 "szabadsagharc" was different from that of 1848-49 in scope and
duration, nevertheless the idea was the same: to rid the country of a foreign
oppressor.

Ferenc

> =======================================================
> Felado :  [Canada]
> Temakor: Re: only one explanation ( 21 sor )
> Idopont: Sat Nov  2 10:06:44 EST 1996 HUNGARY #836
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

At 04:01 PM 10/31/96 -0500, Ferenc Novak wrote:

<snip>
>I stand corrected.  There is no evidence of your parents having  willingly
>served the Kadar regime.  But I am not aware of them publicly opposing it,
>either.  To be in a prominent academic position during the Kadar years
>usually required at least a tacit recognition of the authority and
>legitimacy of the communist regime.  Professing Marxist ideology was de
>rigeur until almost the end.  Hence the idea of serving, however indirectly
>or unwittingly, the communist cause.  Also, to be declared a traitor to
>Marxism, one would have to be a declared Marxist.
>
>Ferenc

Ferenc,

I see a lot of unfairness and inequality in our society.  I've yet to see
you oppose any of it.  Can I assume that your silence is tacit approval of
the way things are?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
says...
 (George Szaszvari) wrote:
>>Could someone please explain when the term *Romanian* gained currency?
>
>Although the ancient Hungarians called themselves "magyar," they
>appear in documentary sources under a great variety of names, such as
<stuff about Magyars snipped>..

Er, right, I've read a bit about Hungarian origins, but although having
also read things about Romanian origins in bygone years I never seemed
to be able to retain (trust?) the "information", due, no doubt, to the
influence of my forebears, as well as the *tone* of the Ceaucescu era
literature.

>In a similar manner, Romanians always called themselves "rumi^ni," a
>term derived from the Latin "romanus" (cf., ruma~ri--Istrian Vlachs,
>or aruma~nu, ruma~nu, ra~ma~nu--Macedonian Vlachs). However, in the
>Middle Ages, the surrounding populations designated them by the
>equivalents of the name "Vlach."

Ahem, if Romanians *always* called themselves *rumini*, then did *rumini*
always call themselves *Romanian*? ;-) But seriously, this is the
interesting bit, these rumini. That they came out dominant when so many
other influences were present at various times: starting with the pre
-Roman Indo-Europeans and movements of Illyrians, Thracians, Scythians,
Celts, Macedonian-Greeks, Romans. etc, then mixed in with Avars, Bulgars,
Ostrogoths, Goths, Visigoths, Huns, etc, followed by the Bulgars, so I
suspect that the Byzantine empire from Constantinople allowed the Latin
tongue to develop as an *indigenous* tongue of the region long after the
Roman Empire split up (what do you know or think about this?).

It is interesting that long periods of Russian, Lithuanian, Turkish
Ottoman and Hungarian control of territories now known as Romania did
not snuff out the usage and development of that Latin offshoot. I'd be
curious to know whether any small communities directly descended from
the various movements of peoples of a thousand years and further back,
still retain their old tongues in any form (as local dialects, distinct
from today's modern Romanian. E.g. some local areas in the Urals still
use [or did until recently] ancient dialects harking back to Finno-Ugrian
origins).

>>I've seen a lot of postings (and have often read in books emanating from
>>Romanian sources, especially Ceaucescu era) references to Romanians as
>>though they had a nation-state and common language going back to times
>>of even Dacian preeminence.
>
>As far as the common language is concerned, while the presence of
>Dacian elements is highly speculative, the romance character of
>Romanian language was recognized very early, and it's speakers were
>considered, by all scholars, without exception, as descendants of a
>Romanized population.

Ceaucescu era scholars liked to claim Dacian roots for modern Romania
(because of the obvious Roman connection) to justify the political
claim for Transylvania. But all the influences of very many other
peoples, languages amd cultures must have been assimilated by the
Rumini, Borg like ;-) Pretty much the same has happened in Hungary,
I suppose, with the difference that Hungarians have had a territorially
recognised nation-state for a millenium. I often get the idea that
Romanians try to overcompensate for this difference when discussing
their own origins.

>>Did Wlachs, Moldavians, Szeklers, Magyars, Saxons, etc, identify
>>themselves as Romanians before the birth of the political entity called
>>Romania last century?
>
>As far as Wallachians and Moldavians are concerned, yes. Wallachia was
>the name used by Western Europeans, but the Romanians always called
>their country "Tara Ruma~neasca." Now, when it comes to Szeklers,
>Magyars, and Saxons, they never identify themselves as Romanians, and

When you say Romanians, you mean Rumini (meaning Moldavian-Vlachs)
of course. Perhaps the the problem is English usage which speaks of
Vlachs and Moldavians, but not of Rumini. This does not lend itself
to perceiving proto-Romanian identity (linguistically, culturally and
politically) in these territories.

>I'm extremely curious to know where did you find this information.

Er, it's not info, but a question asking for info. But, anyway, thank
you for a most interesting and informative posting.

Regards,

George (with relatives in modern day Romania).

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ICPUG..C=64 * ARM Club..Acorn * NWLCC

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