Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 583
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-02-19
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Nationality (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Joe's aphorism (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: To: Durant, Balogh, Zsargo, Szucs, Kornai, Gotthard (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Government control (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: The burden's on Durant (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: The burden's on Doepp and Kornai (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: The burden's on Durant (mind)  73 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: To: Durant, Balogh, Zsargo, Szucs, Kornai, Gotthard (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
9 The Curse of Turan (mind)  87 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: The burden's on Durant (mind)  57 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Hi (mind)  63 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: To: Durant, Balogh, Zsargo, Szucs, Kornai, Gotthard (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Magyars, Sumerians, and Uygurs (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Bokros the Keynesian (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: SOROS-HORN SUMMIT! (mind)  71 sor     (cikkei)
16 WWI (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Hi (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: your mail (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: To: Durant, Balogh, Zsargo, Szucs, Kornai, Gotthard (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: The burden's on Durant (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Nationality (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:40 PM 2/17/96 -0500, Johanne L. Tournier wrote:

>Without going into the merits of the first part of your argument, that last
>part really lost me. Considering we're talking about heterogeneity causing
>conflicts, and in fact the problems in the Balkans now seem to be a result
>of heterogeneity not homogeneity, perhaps you meant a *desire* for
>homogeneity may be a prerequisite for conflict? (but don't let me put words
>in your microprocessor).
>;-)

My microprocessor stands corrected!!  ;-))

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Joe's aphorism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:27 AM 2/18/96 -0400,  Johanne wrote:
>At 20:20 17/02/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote, in response to Doug H:
>
>>Okos enged, szama'r szenved.
>>
>>Joe Szalai
>>
>>
>
>"The bright person yields, the jackass suffers"
>
>Did I get it right?
>
        You sure did!

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: To: Durant, Balogh, Zsargo, Szucs, Kornai, Gotthard (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> writes:

>Actually
>it would be very odd if he were anti-Hungarian, considering that he just
got
>married to Kati Marton at the American Embassy in Budapest!)

Yeah, but I bet Holbrooke doesn't watch the ABC Evening News with <Szalai
content> Peter Jennings.
Sam Stowe
+ - Re: Government control (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Eva Durant
> writes:

>My ego is swollen with pride to be discussed in such details,
>what I am eager to hear is a valid argument aainst a future
>democratically owned and controlled system, or alternatively,
>a few valid points telling me how the present disasterous
>trends of capitalism can be overturned.

Your swollen ego is already a familiar problem to those of us with even a
passing familiarity with your posts on here. Once again you are trying to
divert critical scrutiny away from the disasterous impacts in actual
practice of the ideology you espouse. We are not talking about what could
be or might be. We are talking about what actually was in Hungary under
the communist regime. You know, you could always claim you were just
following orders.
Sam Stowe
+ - Re: The burden's on Durant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Eva Durant
> writes:

>I did explain. I listed several factual reasons why the democratic
>path was abandoned, and from that all the crimes you listed
>happened.  This helps us to know how to go about in the
>future to build in special safeguards for democracy, not
>to have shortcuts to any revolution.  What you fail to address
>is this argument.  Besides me being evil - I'd like to have
>a discussable answer.

You have relied on the old and unsustainable saw that true
Marxism-Leninism was never truly implemented. But if that's true, why did
the state you served wrap itself in the language and symbolism of
Marxism-Leninism? Why continually rub the public's nose with
Marxist-Leninist philosophy if you weren't really practising it? Why teach
it in your universities if you weren't really trying to run the system
that way? It seems to me that if your version of history were true, it
would mean that the communists spent 50 years handing their people the
intellectual tools to analyze the regime and thoroughly discredit its
claims to Marxist-Leninist legitimacy. But most of the rats stayed on the
ship right up to the end, didn't they Elvtars Durant?

The ones wielding the guns in 1956, though, were those who either never
bought into Marxism-Leninism or soon became disillusioned with its
realities. Those like you who really believed in it simply constructed
elaborate psychological mechanisms to navigate the turbulent cognitive
dissonance you endured between what you fervently believed and the
diametrically opposed reality unfolding before your eyes. You sat back and
made a comfortable place for yourself in a system that actively oppressed
many. And don't kid yourself -- you're not as much evil as you are
cowardly. Either way, you have no moral authority to offer advice to
anyone about how to order their society or economy.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- Those of you curious about Elvtars Durant's role in the communist
government of Hungary need look no further than her recent posts in the
feminism thread where she recalls those heady, fun-lovin' days of doing
her bit to propagandize the teeming masses.
+ - Re: The burden's on Doepp and Kornai (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:58 PM 2/17/96 -0500, Farkas D. Gabor wrote:

>But I wonder if the
>>two scholars can enlighten us if Hayek had anything to say about:
>>
>>1) full employment
>>2) medicare for all
>>3) old age pensions for all
>>4) housing/shelter for all
>>5) affordable higher education for all who are qualified
>>6) adequate food for all
>
>I know you think I am a Hayekist (or Hayekite?;). I confess that I never
>read any of this scholar's works. I agree with you that items 1,2,3,4 and 6
>are desireable (but utopistic). However, is it really necessary for all who
>qualify to get higher education? The many thousand colleges in the US turn
>out millions of graduates with skills no one needs. At a different scale
>the same thing is happening in Eastern Europe (except that there enrollment
>in colleges with nonmarketable skills is declining).
>A more reasonable approach would be to provide vocational training and
>limit the number of college graduates to that which the market can bear
>(through tougher admission policies, etc.). The market would take care of
>this but those whose jobs are in danger (the academia) perpetuate this >fraud.
>
>Farkas D. Gabor

Gabor, you are no Hayekist (or Hayekite) if you see social programmes as
being desireable.  Hayekists have no tolerance for any social programme.

I don't think that social programmes are utopian in any sense whatsoever.
You know, as a society, we may never be able stop people killing one
another.  But is that reason enough not to try?   Also, we may never have
medicare without people abusing it, but is that reason not to have it?

Regarding higher education, you're not really disagreeing with me if you
believe that intellectual ability is more important than financial ability.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: The burden's on Durant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:54 PM 2/17/96 -0500, Farkas D. Gabor wrote:

>At 12:27 AM 2/14/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
>>
>>>1. Implementing a socialist system implies socializing private property.
>>
>>That's one way of doing it but there are others.
>
>What other ways? Do you think owners of private property will offer it to
>society on their own? Or, perhaps they will just move near large
>construction projects (such as the Danube -Black Sea Canal) and become
>volunteer canal diggers.

Fair, progressive taxation is another way.  That would not involve
socializing anyones private property.

>>>This will never happen peacefully, thus a revolution is required for it.
>>
>>Did I miss something?  Revolutions can indeed be peaceful.  Except for
>>Romania, and several smaller acts of violence, the revolutions in Eastern
>>Europe and the Soviet Union were peaceful.
>
>I think these examples stink. After all these "revolutions" had the
>opposite effect: socialized property got privatized (it is true, that in
>most cases into the hands of the descendents of the socializers).

You were asking if revolutions can be peacefull.  Again.  Yes they can be.

>>>Show me one revolution that ended in democracy (in the long run).
>>
>>The French or the American revolutions wouldn't be good examples, would they?
>>
>
>Wrong examples again. Didn't the French revolution end in lots of heads
>being chopped off? The American one established the SYSTEM that you oppose
>so much.

I'm sorry you don't like my examples.  But once again, you were asking if I
could show you one revolution that ended in democracy in the long run.  Yes,
the French became quite good in chopping off heads, but are they not
democratic today?  And whether or not I am opposed to the American system,
it's still democratic.  And by the way, I'm not opposed to democracy.  I'm
opposed to the excesses of capitalism.

>>>2. The un-democratic system is never created by the "people". It is
>>>imposed by those who in the name of socialism take the power from the
>>>people.
>>
>>Agreed.  So is your problem with social programmes and services, such as
>>medicare, or is it with un-democratic political systems?
>
>I have no problem with social programs that do not get out of hand. Based
>on the results in many countries (USA, Germany and yes, even Canada), I
>think that the medicare-type programs should be privately managed. Anything
>that is government-managed  becomes corrupt and unmanageable.
>And yes, I do have problems with un-democratic political systems.
>
>Farkas D. Gabor

I don't understand why so many people throw up their hands in defeat when
they see social programmes being abused.  A society without social
programmes would be a poorer and more violent society.

The argument has often been made that Canada's medicare programme is too
expensive.  Well, yes, it is expensive.  Very expensive!!  However,
Americans per capita cost of health care is more expensive than ours.  The
big difference is that tens of millions of Americans don't have proper or
adequate medicare, whereas in Canada, everyone is covered.

Pretty scary socialist stuff, this talk of medicare, pensions, etc..
Wouldn't you say?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: To: Durant, Balogh, Zsargo, Szucs, Kornai, Gotthard (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:51 AM 2/18/96 -0500, Sam  wrote:
>In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> writes:
>
>>Actually
>>it would be very odd if he were anti-Hungarian, considering that he just
>got
>>married to Kati Marton at the American Embassy in Budapest!)
>
>Yeah, but I bet Holbrooke doesn't watch the ABC Evening News with <Szalai
>content> Peter Jennings.

        Well, Sam, you are well informed. Indeed, Kati Marton used to be
Peter Jennings's wife.
        Eva Balogh
+ - The Curse of Turan (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Under the subject: SOROS-HORN SUMMIT, I commented here previously, that
the Hungarian media mistreated the meeting between a the Hungarian
Government and a group of successful Hungarians from abroad. Eva Balogh
responded that this is a sign of media inaptitude and a general antagonism
again foreigners. I have no doubt that these are valid points, but I think
there is more to it. There is an even more serious problem, for which I do
not have a good name, some people call it the Curse of Turan (Turani
a1tok).  Let me explain what I mean with the operation of the World
Federation of Hungarians (WFH) in Canada.

But, first consider what is the role of the WFH. If an average Joe/Jane
wants to help Hungary there is a need for an organization which can help
in this.  Without help unscrupulous people will take advantage of those
who are trying to help. There are many examples of this. People from
Hungary frequently come along to collect money for monuments, churches and
various charitable foundations. The collected money sometimes ends up in
the pocket of some crook in Hungary.  This is one reason, there are
others, why there is a need for an organization which can channel the help
from the small people in the diaspora to worthy causes. The rich and
famous do not need this, they can organize their own programs like Andrew
Sarlos, as I described before.  I think this was the main reason why WFH
was formed nearly 60 years ago. Now let us see how this organization met
this goals in Canada.

During the communist regime the WFH was an agent of the communist
government, therefore the majority of Hungarian-Canadian (H-C) ignored it
and did not participate in their programs. They only knew about it,
because many of them received a nice monthly magazine free of charge. In
1992 the WFH was reorganized and renounced its communist past. The largest
Canadian emigre organization the Hungarian Canadian Federation (HCF) sent
delegates to the WHF congress and one of them become a member of the
presidium and two become directors. But the average H-C was not aware that
the WHF even existed. The free magazine ceased publications, the local
media did not report any news about the WFH. The Curse of Turan raised its
ugly head.  Many influential H-C in Toronto ignored the WFH, because they
did not like the people associated with HCF. HCF is a political
organization with conservative views (some call it nationalist).

The leaders in Budapest, saw that in Canada thing are not going well. So,
in 1994 they decided to do something. They asked a few people who are not
connected with the HCF to organise a Canadian Council of WFH. This group
started to recruit individual members and organizations for the WFH. But
the Curse of Turan got busy again. The majority of H-C would not have
anything to do with the new Canadian Council because they objected to the
past activities of some of their members. Consequently the Canadian
Council after one year of operation managed to recruit only 5 small
organizations and a few individual members.

So the frustrated leaders from Budapest last November came to Toronto and
tried to get the two groups work together, namely the HCF and the so
called Canadian Council. But the reconciliation effort did not work, in
fact things got nastier. Budapest has taken away from the Canadian Council
the mandate to represent WFH in Canada, and asked the HCF members to
organize the Canadian National Council, but allowed the other group to
function as WFH affiliated organization. So now if a H-C wants to join the
WFH, he must choose between two groups. This create considerable
difficulty for many.  Those who have friends in both organizations don't
want to offend their friend, so they choose not join the WFH at all.

In my view the WFH has failed in the past, in spite of the dedicated work
of many individuals. I see the Curse of Turan as a major problem, and
there is no hope that anybody can remove it in the near future. The only
way the WFH can protect itself from it, is by down-sizing the
organizations. There is no need for 3 vice-presidents, 21 member
presidiums, 120 member directorate (va1lasztma1ny), 300 delegates, with
umpteen national and regional councils with their own chiefs. This only
gives the appearance that it is a democratic organization and gives
targets for the Curse of Turan.

I think the WFH could function very well like a business under a CEO
elected by a board of directors representing a wide spectrum of the
Hungarian society. All the WFH organization would need to do with respect
to the Western Region is to publish a good newspaper and establish a
presence on the internet and listen to their subscribers and analyze and
disseminate information. Tell us which organization needs and deserve
help, who is doing what. We have already more than 100 other organizations
in Canada. The Maltese for helping the poor, Human Rights organizations to
protect the minorities, the Chambers of Commerce to organize the business
contacts, social and cultural societies, etc. They do not need help, all
they need is some publicity.

I know quite few people expressed similar opinions, but it was dismissed
as hostility not deserving any consideration or answer. I myself sent a
number of messages to their e-mail address ), none
of them was acknowledged. Very frustrating ...

Barna Bozoki
+ - Re: The burden's on Durant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:17 AM 2/18/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>Fair, progressive taxation is another way.  That would not involve
>socializing anyones private property.

Fair is in the eye of the beholder (or the one who gets and not the one who
gives). I consider my salary my private property. If it is taxed beyond the
services I am getting for it, I consider that socializing.


>>I think these examples stink. After all these "revolutions" had the
>>opposite effect: socialized property got privatized (it is true, that in
>>most cases into the hands of the descendents of the socializers).
>
>You were asking if revolutions can be peacefull.  Again.  Yes they can be.

Let me make it clear: I don't consider the events in Eastern Europe
revolutions. Bankrupt communist governments simply gave up on their system
because it just did not work. In Romania there was some violence but just
ask anybody who is familiar with the events there if they consider it to be
a true revolution. It started to be one in Temesvar (Timisoara) but it was
kidnapped by the Securitate.

>I don't understand why so many people throw up their hands in defeat when
>they see social programmes being abused.

Because efforts to eliminate abuse are vehemently opposed by those who
blindly accept anything.

A society without social
>programmes would be a poorer and more violent society.

I agree. Just let's not exagerate.

>The argument has often been made that Canada's medicare programme is too
>expensive.  Well, yes, it is expensive.  Very expensive!!  However,
>Americans per capita cost of health care is more expensive than ours.

But we get what we pay for.  I recently went through a lithothripsy and was
impressed with the kind of care I received. I am willing to pay for it.
Especially when I compare it with tales I here from my  friends and
relatives from Canad, Hungary, Romania and Germany.

>The
>big difference is that tens of millions of Americans don't have proper or
>adequate medicare, whereas in Canada, everyone is covered.

That is not true. Americans are either covered by priovate insurance or if
they are too poor for that, there are government programs that cover them
(Medicaid).

>Pretty scary socialist stuff, this talk of medicare, pensions, etc..
>Wouldn't you say?

Yeah...:-).

Farkas D. Gabor
+ - Re: Hi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Tony and Celia Becker
> says:
>
>Dear Eva;
>
>At 09:14 AM 2/16/96 +0100, you wrote:
>>>
>>> >Not related, due
>>> >>to  the market economy...
>>>
>>> That is fascinating! Could you explain that a little more fully? They are
>>> not related?
>>>
>>
>>I remember south -American countries being the newest
>>growth miracles  in the not so distant past. I don't remember the
>>disappearance of poverty accompanying it.
>>The recent modest growth in US economy did not raise
>>average living standards, especially not the bottom third.
>>
>>Eva Durant
>>
>Heartily agreed!  My family did business in Mexico (side business that my
>parents were originally planning to evolve into a semi-retirement business,
>not trusting Social Security even then) for almost 20 years.  We regularly
>visited many areas not usually seen by tourists, in addition to some tourist
>areas.  We only saw continuous deterioration of infrastructures, and more
>poverty, not less.  It became so overwhelming we just couldn't
>psychologically deal with it.  We wanted to do whatever we could whenever we
>saw need, but our own resources were limited and it was impossible to help
>all we wanted to help.  People with real need had to be turned away, and it
>got so we couldn't stand that any more.
>
>The business involved crystalline minerals for collectors and researchers,
>and jewelry minerals.  Since these are often associated with mines in
>operation for metals, we went to many small mining towns to purchase these
>things.  The workers were allowed to salvage crystals and jewelry minerals
>because they weren't the business of the mine, and thus could sell them for
>extra money.  Apparently we were more fair buyers than most--we were
>typically mobbed.  However, even the salvaging/scavenging involves hard
>work.  Crystal clusters don't just pop out at you from the hard rock or clay
>or whatever and say "here I am, just pick me up and go sell me."  Therefore,
>we tried to pay for the work, as well as the quality of the materials.
>
>
>Anyhow, it's been over 10 years since the family ended the business, but
>we've made periodic trips back to Mexico for other reasons.  My parents did
>develop friends, for instance in some of these areas.  So we continue to be
>fairly up-to-date about conditions in a number of areas.  True, this isn't
>strictly scientific, but between the increasing hordes of refugees and
>immigrants still coming mostly to the state in which I live, and these
>experiences, we must conclude that Mexico is worse off now, than it was
>nearly 30 years ago--Echeverria and all.
>
>Respectfully,
>
>
>Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
>San Jose, CA, USA
>
>N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA
 WELL WELL
Hogy vagy?
+ - Re: To: Durant, Balogh, Zsargo, Szucs, Kornai, Gotthard (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:57 18/02/96 -0800, Eva Balogh commented:

>At 06:51 AM 2/18/96 -0500, Sam  wrote:
>>In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> writes:
>>
>>>Actually
>>>it would be very odd if he were anti-Hungarian, considering that he just
>>got
>>>married to Kati Marton at the American Embassy in Budapest!)
>>
>>Yeah, but I bet Holbrooke doesn't watch the ABC Evening News with <Szalai
>>content> Peter Jennings.
>
>        Well, Sam, you are well informed. Indeed, Kati Marton used to be
>Peter Jennings's wife.
>        Eva Balogh

Dear Eva -

Yes, and I can remember when she was just starting out as a reporter at
WCAU, then the CBS affiliate in Philadelphia, with anchor John Facenda (You
remember him - the "Voice of Doom" from the NFL films). That must have been
in the early 70's. I thought at the time she seemed lovely and intelligent,
and I didn't even know she was a Hungarian-American!

Coincidentally, of course, since Sam mentioned "<Szalai content> Peter
Jennings," since he happens to be Canadian. Joe, do you think the problem
these guys have with you is that they really fear your subversive Canadian
ideas?

Schizophrenically yours,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: Magyars, Sumerians, and Uygurs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "Johanne L. Tournier"
> writes:

>3) Perhaps the theory of the Sumerian-Magyar kinship is a crock, but
>apparently there is a pretty definite linguistic connection. It seems to
me
>that if there is a connection, it can only be because the two languages
>descended from the same root, or the peoples lived in close proximity to
one
>another for a considerable period of time. Perhaps the Magyars migrated
>through Sumerian lands, or perhaps they lived close together in Central
Asia
>and then diverged.

For what it's worth, I looked up Sumerian in my copy of Merrit Ruhlen's "A
Guide to the World's Languages: Vol. 1, Classifications" (1991) and he has
it listed as a language isolate along with Basque, Burushaski and a
smattering of other languages. Given Ruhlen's academic orientation in
favor of nostraticist linguistic classifications, it seems to me he would
have identified a relationship between Finno-Ugric and Sumerian if he
thought one existed.

I also leafed through my copy of Bjorn Collinder's "An Introduction to the
Uralic Languages" (1965). Collinder examines possible ties between Uralic
languages and Yukaghir, a Siberian isolate, the Indo-European family of
languages and the Altaic family of languages. He also notes in a
concluding paragraph that Uralic shares some similarities with the
Chukchean languages of the Soviet Far Eastern Pacific coast and Eskimoan.
No mention of Sumerian. Uyghur would fall under the Altaic language family
under the classification scheme currently used by most scholars of
comparative linguistics. By the bye, the concept of linguistic ties
between members of what is now called the Uralic family of languages
predates the discovery of the Indo-European languages. The classification
argument currently raging among most professional linguists is what
position within Uralic the Samoyed languages have, not whether Hungarian
is a member or not. On the whole, Peter Hidas is the only one to offer
competent testimony in this case so far, your honor. Footnotes do not a
valid argument make, at least on their own.

The political motivation for claiming Hungarian as a descendant of
Sumerian is pretty easy to suss out. It creates a brilliant new claim as
the cultural survivor of one of the world's oldest civilizations instead
of being a Johnnie-come-lately from the steppe north of the Black Sea. It
also trumps those snooty Romanians and their claims as descendants of the
Romans.
Sam Stowe
+ - Re: Bokros the Keynesian (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

James Doepp wrote:

> In a previous post Balogh =C9va mentioned the necessity of Bokros'
> restrictive policies.  It is quite easy to declare that we need restrictive
> policies -- or policies that promote growth (I think Kornai J=E1nos argued
> for the latter in 1993 - Andr=E1s can correct me, I got the information
> second-hand).  I think, though, Bokros' policies need to be considered
> more closely.
>
> These policies are actually textbook Keynesian policies.  According to
> Keynesian theory, to reduce trade imbalances, government should apply
> restrictive measures (reduce real income, government spending, increase
> taxation).  This is because the quantity of imports depends on income,
> while exports depend on other countries' incomes.  Bokros has applied all
> three of the above-mentioned restrictive meaures, and also devalued the
> forint (using a crawling peg) and applying new tariffs.

[...]

> My main problem against these policies, though, is not that they are
> put into place by technocrats.  My main problem is that they are based
> on Keynesian principles, which I cannot accept.  I don't want to bore
> people with a criticism of Keynes and Keynesianism.  All I wish to do is
> alert people to the fact that the questions involved in the Bokros
> plan are not as simple as many might think, and many commentators
> (pro and con) would have you believe.
>
> Andr=E1s, if you have any comment on the above, I would appreciate
> hearing your perspective.

If you accept others' opinions too, here is mine.

I think you need to do a bit more reading on Keynes, however much you seem
to detest the guy, otherwise the students at Miskolc will come away from
your courses with a very unusual concept of him, his theories and his policy
recommendations.

Quite to the contrary to Bokros' restrictive fiscal policies (cut government
spending in non econo-speak), Keynes recommended fiscal expansion (=INCREASE
government spending) to climb out of recession.  As an antithesis to the
neo-classical view that governments should have balance budgets (achieved
by restrictive fiscal policies aimed at cutting out the money supply) Keynes
prescribed deliberate deficits to pump money into the economy and stimulate
it by increasing demand for goods and services.

Hence, what you are criticizing in the Bokros approach is textbook NEO-
CLASSICAL (not Keynesian) policies.

(For a summary of the respective theories, see such painless summaries of
economics as William Barber's History of Economic Thought, Penguin, ISBN
0-14-02-0890-9.)

George Antony
+ - Re: SOROS-HORN SUMMIT! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
says...
>        Barna brings up a serious problem in Hungary: antagonism on the part
>of  Hungarians living in Hungary toward fellow Hungarians living abroad. And
>we may add something else: a general reluctance to learn or borrow from
>others. A very interesting article appeared in the Szalon about three days
>ago in which a successful Hungarian dentist in Germany describes a
>conversation she had had with a dentist chief honcho who happened to be one
>of the advisors on medical matters to the Antall government. She was trying
>to explain the German system of health insurance to him but he interrupted
>her and said: "we will solve this matter ourselves, the Hungarian way. We
>don't copy anybody." Well, there is a saying in English about reinventing
>the wheel and, of course, there is the Hungarian equivalent of it concerning
>the Spanish wax. Both tell us that it is stupid not to save time and energy
>by adopting others' successful methods. The same German-Hungarian dentist
>was complaining that in Hungary there is no such thing as a "commercial
>code," which makes life for Hungarian businessmen extremely difficult. I am
>in the middle of reading an interesting article on the Czech Republic and lo
>and behold, what do I read: "Even before he became prime minister, Klaus and
>reform-minded liberals had enacted a commercial code (partly borrowed from
>Germany but tailored to domestic institutions), a restitution process, and a
>privatization law. The code set up a legal system so that contracts and
>property rights, the necessary legal pre-conditions of a market economy,
>could flourish." In Hungary there is still no commercial code and the
>privatization law was enacted only very recently--six years after the
>abandonment of the one-party system and the socialist economy.

Last October I spent three weeks training members of a village association in
the Cserehat in community development and local government. (I will return for
part 2 of the training in April, and 12 of the Hungarian trainers will come to
Wisconsin to complete the project in June.)

During my stay there was a meeting of a group of representatives which formed
an association of village associations. Part of their three-day meeting was a
tour of the region. At one of the stops the mayor of the particular village we
were touring was bemoaning the fact that the lake his village was located on
should be filled with tourists instead of the two campers we saw. The lake was
quite polluted, and the mayor blamed decisions from Budapest for all his
problems. When I tried to provide some examples of communities in Wisconsin
which had to deal with similar problems the answer I got was "It's not the
system here." That was the answer to any example or suggestion. (I later found
out that he was the former local Party leader for the village -- he looked the
part, too, with the leather jacket, new clothes and shoes, and $50 hairdo).

I saw a great deal of "NIH Syndrome" (not invented here) during my visit. There
is this to overcome (which has to be overcome in the US also), and also the
feeling that someone else is to blame for problems, but local people are
powerless to bring about changes.

I think Hungarians DO have unique ways of doing things.Everywhere I went I saw
a great deal of talent and intelligence. Much of it is in the "potential" state
rather than the "realized" state, however. I recommend using something the
Japanese are very good at. They have not created or "invented" many
technologies or institutions over the years. Yet they are a very successful
people who do not waste time "reinventing the wheel." What they do is send out
information gatherers (sometimes industrial spies) throughout the world to
collect good ideas. The ideas are brought home, disassembled, and run through a
"cultural filter," which eliminates some things which will not work in Japan
and modifies others to work in their unique culture. The end result is a
reformulated solution which has a high probability of succeeding for them. They
consider the result uniquely Japanese, even though most of the core
ideas and thinking originated elsewhere.

P.S. This is my first post to the group. I have been reading it for six months.
I really appreciate the discussion and insights. You have all added a great
deal to my knowledge about Hungary and its relationship with the world. There
are those low moments, but when you are in top form on important issues you are
the greatest! Thanks for sharing your information, news, and views with others.

David Hinds

+ - WWI (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

S.Stowe wrote:

>>Beside that
>>I don't see any reason why the Germans can be excluded from the so
>>called 'western civilization', I do not think that any bellingerent of
>>the WWI was more barbarian than any other. The whole war was a barbarian,
>>senseless thing where nobody fought for any 'great values' or'civilization'
>>but for selfish interests.
>>
>>Janos
>>
>>
>>
>
>Janos, I couldn't agree with you any more on that last sentence you wrote
>-- the whole war was barbarous. But then again, you and I have the benefit
>of over 75 years of hindsight, including a much wider spread, much
>bloodier Second World War. But that doesn't make applying our viewpoint
>from 1996 back onto the people of that era is historically accurate. The
>sad truth is that millions marched off to war and certain death in August,
>1914, thinking exactly what I posited -- that they were going to defend
>western civilization.

I guess you are completly misunderstand me, I was not talking about the
induvidual peoples, simple soldiers. Sure, they believed that they were
going to defend the 'western civilization'. It would have been hard to
mobilize so many people with slogans like 'we are going to defend our
colonies and naval superiority' (Great-Brittain) or 'we are about to
enter the war on the side of the triple antante because we think it is
more benifitiuos than on the side of Germany'(USA). I was talking about those
who sent the soldiers to the battlefield. I am not so sure they were thinking
about such ideas like 'western civilization' when they decided about the
war.

>And for the majority of Americans in early 1917,
>western civilization meant Britain and France, not Germany and not
>Austria-Hungary.
>Sam Stowe

You see Sam, that is a sad truth. This means that the propaganda worked
very well.

Janos
+ - Re: Hi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Cecilia Fa'bos-Becker wrote:

> Sorry, but from what I've heard from a lot of people whom I trust, I think
> I'll stick to visiting Hungary this year, and not add Poland just yet.

I think that this is a bit of a logical jump after a perfectly reasonable
comparison of the economic development records of Hungary and Poland.

Poland has plenty of interesting sights and very nice people.  If you
haven't been there yet, I would strongly recommend it.

George Antony
+ - Re: your mail (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi Doug

We rented a car from Hertz in Budapest this summer.  We used
international drivers licenses.  They're no sweat though, get
them at AAA.

You can reserve from Hertz through the international 800
number, but we got a warm feeling by dealing with the Budapest
Airport Hertz directly.  Fax no is 1  36  2608712
, voice 1577171.  The Hertz office was at a different terminal
than the one we landed at.  The 800 number didn't mention that,
but the locals did.  They had a guy meet us at the terminal
with the car when we arrived.

Also, Hertz was the only company that would allow us to take
the car into Slovakia.

Jack and Chris Gergely

According to Doug Hormann:
>
> To anyone who can help me with this:
>
>         I will be traveling to Budapest on or about June 20th.
>
> Question:  Will Hungary recognize my U. S. driver's license, or is an
> international license required?  I've gotten conflicting answers from some
> outdated tourist guides and am hoping someone on the list might have an
> authoritative answer.
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> Doug Hormann
> 
>
+ - Re: To: Durant, Balogh, Zsargo, Szucs, Kornai, Gotthard (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:51 PM 2/18/96 -0500, Johanne L. Tournier, Schizophrenically wrote:

>Coincidentally, of course, since Sam mentioned "<Szalai content> Peter
>Jennings," since he happens to be Canadian. Joe, do you think the problem
>these guys have with you is that they really fear your subversive Canadian
>ideas?

No.  I don't think it goes that deep.  They only fear themselves.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: The burden's on Durant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:39 PM 2/18/96 -0500, Farkas D. Gabor wrote:

>Fair is in the eye of the beholder (or the one who gets and not the one who
>gives). I consider my salary my private property. If it is taxed beyond the
>services I am getting for it, I consider that socializing.

I consider it theft.  I'm in favour of social services and social
programmes, not in being ripped off.

>>I don't understand why so many people throw up their hands in defeat when
>>they see social programmes being abused.
>
>Because efforts to eliminate abuse are vehemently opposed by those who
>blindly accept anything.

Can you give a couple of examples to back up your statement?

>>The argument has often been made that Canada's medicare programme is too
>>expensive.  Well, yes, it is expensive.  Very expensive!!  However,
>>Americans per capita cost of health care is more expensive than ours.
>
>But we get what we pay for.  I recently went through a lithothripsy and was
>impressed with the kind of care I received. I am willing to pay for it.

I'm sure most people would be willing to pay for good medical care if they
could afford to.  But too many people can't.  Should they get less care?  I
believe that a society should be judged by how well we care for one another.

>Especially when I compare it with tales I here from my  friends and
>relatives from Canada, Hungary, Romania and Germany.

You may be more inclined to believe your friends and relatives than me, but
I'll tell you that most Canadians love our health care system, warts and all.

>>The big difference is that tens of millions of Americans don't have proper
>>or adequate medicare, whereas in Canada, everyone is covered.
>
>That is not true. Americans are either covered by priovate insurance or if
>they are too poor for that, there are government programs that cover them
>(Medicaid).

A two tiered health care system is better than none.  And soup kitchens are
better than hunger.  But America is wealthy enough to have a one tiered
system.  Only political will is needed.

Joe Szalai

AGYKONTROLL ALLAT AUTO AZSIA BUDAPEST CODER DOSZ FELVIDEK FILM FILOZOFIA FORUM GURU HANG HIPHOP HIRDETES HIRMONDO HIXDVD HUDOM HUNGARY JATEK KEP KONYHA KONYV KORNYESZ KUKKER KULTURA LINUX MAGELLAN MAHAL MOBIL MOKA MOZAIK NARANCS NARANCS1 NY NYELV OTTHON OTTHONKA PARA RANDI REJTVENY SCM SPORT SZABAD SZALON TANC TIPP TUDOMANY UK UTAZAS UTLEVEL VITA WEBMESTER WINDOWS