Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 714
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-07-01
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 1956-Yugoslavia (mind)  452 sor     (cikkei)
2 please help to translate for people who need a special (mind)  85 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Need Genealogy Researcher (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Books on the Conquest (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: subscribe HUNGARY (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
6 Does anybody know what this is? (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Monostori (californian wine) (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: on careless cross-reference... (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
9 Correction: Net abuse complaint procedure (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
10 Net abuse complaint procedure (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
11 Wanted: Sanitation Engineer (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
12 I'M A LEGEND IN MY OWN MIND (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
13 MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY FOR HUNGARIANS AT HOME AND ABR (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Corporate Citizen of the Week Award (mind)  52 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Corporate Citizen of the Week Award (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Education in crisis (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
17 HELP with GOSPELS TEXT (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)

+ - 1956-Yugoslavia (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter I. Hidas

ROur beloved HungariansS
Hungarian Refugees in Yugoslavia in Transit to Canada

        In early 1957 with the effective closing of the Austrian border by the
Kadar
Government, cutting off the major escape route to the West, thousands of
Hungarian
refugees sought asylum in Yugoslavia, eventually bringing the total number of
refugees who arrived there to more than 18,000. This led to a crucial
situation both for
the refugees, most of whom were seeking to move on to Western countries, and
for
Yugoslavia which had inadequate resources and facilities and was experiencing
severe economic pressures from the Soviet Bloc. Friction between Yugoslavia
and the
U.S.S.R. had led to the indefinite postponement of $250,000,000 in Soviet
credits
which had been promised to Yugoslavia before the Hungarian revolution.1

        Soon after the 1956 invasion of Hungary, YugoslaviaUs foreign ministry
informed CanadaUs charg in Belgrade that Hungarian military and civilian
refugees
were crossing the Yugoslav border in large number and were being directed to
reception centres. The refugees were told that they were quite free  to decide
where
they eventually  wished to go and could apply directly to individual missions
for
admission to Western countries if they so wished.2  Meanwhile, another
Yugoslav
diplomat, the  ambassador to the UN, mentioned to a Canadian representative
that his
government Rwould seem to favour refugee Hungarians movement to Canada from
Yugoslavia rather than their being forcibly returned to Hungary.S3

        In Ottawa there were opposing views on the advisability of admitting
Hungarian
refugees from Yugoslavia. External Affairs considered Yugoslavia an
independent
communist state, an anathema to the Soviet Empire. For them, to help the
Hungarians
meant to  develop a better relationship with Yugoslavia as well as to enhance
the
international reputation of Canada as a humanitarian state. External Affairs
pressed for
a NATO discussion on the refugee problem because they feared that if the
Yugoslavs
were forced to close their borders to Hungarian refugees or return them to the
Kadar
security police, the last gateway from Hungary to the West open at that time
would  be
shut and the impact of this on the morale of the anti-Russians and
anti-Stalinists in
Hungary would be devastating.4

        Canadian Immigration had a narrower view of the problem. They
considered
Yugoslavia a communist country and, as such, suspect. They were also anxious
to
limit the entree of Hungarian refugees  to Canada. J.W. Pickersgill, CanadaUs
Minister
of Citizenship and Immigration, wanted to approach Yugoslav authorities,
assuming
the Yugoslav authorities had reason to believe that a number of the refugees
would
wish to emigrate to Canada, to see whether they would be willing to facilitate
a small
Canadian immigration team visiting the refugees5  Pickersgill was willing to
accept a
few selected Hungarians but had little interest in easing the plight of
Yugoslavia.

        Jules Lger, Deputy Minister for External Affairs, asked his
counterpart at
Immigration, Colonel Laval Fortier, to give priority to the Hungarian refugees
in
Yugoslavia and waive the non-political requirements for their admission to
Canada as
was the practice in the case of the Hungarian refugees in Austria at the
time.6 Jean
Buchard,  Director of Technical Services at Immigration, however, was
completely
against such an operation. He said: RImmigration could only handle these
people... if
they were brought out of Yugoslavia.S 7 Laval Fortier was of the same mind,
contrary to
the initial view of his minister, and opposed outright  the sending of an
immigration
team to Yugoslavia.8 Pretending that he would soon send a team, he attempted
to
mislead External Affairs by requesting Lger to bring to his attention any
applications
from Hungarian refugees wishing to migrate to Canada.9    The true intentions
of
Immigration could not be hidden for long. The first protest came from
A.F.Hart, the
Canadian charg in Belgrade. He asked for help from his superiors at External
Affairs.
RIt is... disappointing to know that Immigration does not repeat not propose
to send
inspection team at present time and we wonder if this decision could  be
urgently
reconsidered.S 10 C.E.S.Smith, The Director at Immigration,  further
obfuscated the
situation when he wired External Affairs: RIt is recognized that the refugees
in
Yugoslavia might be in a special category due to that countryUs form of
Government.
We are prepared [nevertheless]...to proceed immediately with this group...All
the
facilities presently being offered to Hungarian refugees who immigrate to
Canada
shall apply, including free transportation.S11 This statement was contrary to
the facts.

        Initially, the number of Hungarian refugees in Yugoslavia was small.
By the end
of November their number reached 530. Those who crossed the border bearing
arms
were quickly disarmed and interned.12 The refugees were considered to be an
embarrassment for the Yugoslavs who were, by now, ready to recognize the Kadar
government. Tito was anxious to handle the refugee problem without undue
publicity.13 A Yugoslav-Hungarian mixed commission was established to
repatriate
refugees. On December 7th and 9th the first two groups, a total of 141
persons, were
returned to Hungary at two different frontier posts. Canadian diplomats soon
discovered that the Hungarian refugees, despite assurances to the contrary,
were not
given a complete freedom of choice when it came to repatriation. This
intelligence was
used to put more pressure on Canadian Immigration. T.P. Malone, Chief of the
Consular Division at External Affairs, asked  the deputy minister of
Immigration to
urgently provide a selection team and relax the medical and other requirements
for
Canadian entry for the Hungarian refugees.14 At Immigration in Ottawa, all
pretence
was abandoned and a clear decision was reached. Hungarian refugees in
communist
countries, including Yugoslavia, were declared admissible to Canada only if
they
came within the usual close relative classes and if applications were filed in
Canada
by their relatives.S Free transportation was not made available for this type
of cases.15
In short,  Hungarian refugees in Yugoslavia were to be handled as ordinary
immigrants. External Affairs had lost the first round. Nevertheless, External
Affairs and
its diplomats in Belgrade and elsewhere continued their struggle on behalf of
the
Hungarian refugees in general and in Yugoslavia in particular. With the help
of the
British consul, Hart  kept in touch with the refugees at the Gerovo camp where
there
were many Hungarians who had applied for admission to Canada. When his
superiors
informed him that Immigration was unwilling, despite numerous approaches, to
liberalize procedures in dealing with Hungarian refugees in Yugoslavia, and
that
Pickersgill had reversed his initial position and had no interest in assisting
a
communist country, Hart wired back about the forgotten refugeesU unfortunate
effect on
CanadaUs reputation in the Balkans.16 External backed Hart. This was a
surprise to
Pickersgill, who thought that he had earlier managed to convince Ambassador
George
Ignatieff and through him External Affairs,  to support his Rsponsored
immigrants onlyS
policy.17 Lger in Ottawa,18 George Ignatieff from Belgrade, and now Norman
Robertson from London pleaded the same cause that Leger called the cause of
Rour
beloved HungariansS in Yugoslavia.19  Robertson protested the Hungarians being
lumped with other refugees who might have made their way to Yugoslavia from
Romania or the Soviet Union. This seemed to him quite unrealistic. He wrote to
Ottawa: RI venture to suggest that our present policy toward Hungarian
refugees in
Yugoslavia might be reconsidered in the light of the marked change in attitude
shown
by the Yugoslav govt.S20 The United Nations also asked Canada to accept
Hungarian
refugees for immigration to Canada.21  To resolve the interdepartmental
conflict,
Pearson sent Lger to discuss the matter with Colonel Laval Fortier at
Immigration.
External Affairs demanded the reexamination of Canadian immigration policy re
Yugoslavia. Jules Lger told his counterpart that he wanted to avoid any
criticism of
Canada. He observed that if Canada and others will not cooperate with Tito on
this
matter, he may close the border, and that may weaken resistance in Hungary.
Furthermore, stated Lger, ImmigrationUs negative policy towards the Hungarian
refugees in Yugoslavia may also disturb Hungarian-Yugoslav relations which
reached
a delicate state recently.22  To keep External Roff his backS while
Pickersgill was in
hospital for treatment, Smith, Director of Immigration, misinformed External
Affairs by
claiming that the question of the Hungarian refugees in Yugoslavia was still
under
consideration. He  promised to advise External as soon as a decision had been
reached.23 A decision had already been made not to admit Hungarian refugees
from
Yugoslavia but Smith began to soften his initial position realizing the
inadvisability of
the rigid enforcement of the new exclusion policy.

        By the middle of January, 1957,  five to six hundred Hungarian
refugees arrived
daily to Yugoslavia. Within another couple of weeks their number had reached
10,000.
By now, the Austrian border was effectively sealed off by the Red and the
Hungarian
armies but the Yugoslav-Hungarian border remained open at many crossings.  On
January 31, 1957 Laval advised Pickersgill that since Yugoslavia cannot cope
with the
flood of refugees any more, some relief was needed, otherwise Rthere may be
unfavourable consequences with respect to the relations of Yugoslavia and
Western
nations.S But since  Rother Western nations to date have shown little
inclination to deal
with this problemS Canada should admit maybe 500 Hungarians refugees.24
Pickersgill subsequently reversed himself -- more-or-less. He refused to take
the
initiative but suggested that External Affairs act on behalf of the Hungarian
refugees
stranded in Yugoslavia in co-operation with other Western countries,
especially
England and the United States.25 By now over 17,000 Hungarians had crossed the
Yugoslav border out of whom only 214 left for the west while close to 1,000
were
repatriated. 2,226 of the refugees applied for Canadian admission. Hardly any
received visas.26

        CanadaUs reluctance at admitting the refugees was not unique. Neither
the US
nor the UK was ready to accept Hungarian refugees from Yugoslavia at this
conjuncture. In Washington the decision was left to Congress while in London
the
Foreign Office opposed any aid  of Yugoslavia.27 External Affairs,
nevertheless, still
continued its campaign on behalf of the Hungarian refugees.

        Since there was a lack of progress in talks on the Yugoslav problem
between
External and Immigration,  E.H.Gilmour of the Canadian United Nations Division
urged
that Pearson talk to Pickersgill without delay.28  Meanwhile, Pickersgill as a
RcompromiseS suggested the acceptance of Hungarians with mining or
agricultural
qualifications, and domestics  as well as those with sponsors who were
financially
responsible and knew them personally.29 The proposal would have made the
Hungarians Rfavoured immigrantsS but not RrefugeesS. By the March 21 cabinet
meeting in Ottawa Pearson and Pickersgill worked out a true compromise.
Pearson
agreed to Ra careful selection of any Hungarian refugees that were in
YugoslaviaS
while Pickersgill agreed to the admission of 1,000 applicants. Free
transportation was
to be provided by the Canadian Government.30 At the insistence of Immigration
all
publicity on this decision was to be avoided. This was necessary because of
the
persistent  public denial of the existence of selection. In the selection of
those
refugees, priority was to be given to those who had sponsors, relatives or
friends in
Canada. The others were to be chosen according to their occupations or their
ability to
comply with the usual immigration standards.31 Despite these restrictive
measures,
the Canadian offer was the first firm commitment received from overseas by the
Yugoslav government. But on 22 April 1957, Immigration tried to stop the flow
altogether, because Sof the large volume of ordinary immigration and the
difficulties
encountered in Canada in placing Hungarian refugees.S Firm instructions were
issued
on May 1st to restrict visas. Free transportation was to be available for
sponsored
refugees and only exceptionally meritorious cases of Hungarian refugees were
to be
eligible for Assisted Passage, that is, a loan to pay for an airline ticket.32

        Transportation of the Hungarian refugees in Yugoslavia was arranged
under
the auspices of ICEM. A medical officer was to  accompany a Canadian selection
team
for medical examinations and review of X-rays provided by ICEM (International
Committee for European Migration).33 Tentative arrangements were made for Visa
Officers to deal with Hungarian applicants in Yugoslavia. Immigration officers
were to
travel from Germany or Italy to Belgrade by the end of April. ICEM  officials
were also
getting ready to help in Yugoslavia -- with a huge team of 75. This made the
Yugoslavs
suspicious and they demanded that  the team be trimmed for both economic and
political reasons.34 Processing of refugees was temporarily halted. There were
other
complications. When the first Canadian team member arrived on May 7, he found
that
processing had not been started, no X-ray equipment was available until May 10
and
that most Hungarians were without documents of any kind.35  On 10 May 1957 at
Gerovo, 360 miles from Belgrade, in a snowbound mountainous area in Slovenia,
a
Canadian  immigration officer  and a doctor began the processing of refugees.
The
team was pleased with the calibre of the immigrants most of whom were young
men.
They reported that 4,400 refugees wished to go to Canada.36  Then the Canadian
doctor became sick and his replacement refused to put up with conditions in
Yugoslavia and  promptly left. By now the Canadians had processed 800 refugees
and on May 27, 200 Hungarians from Yugoslavia were put aboard the Ascania  on
their way to Canada. Five hundred more followed on June 19.37 The Canadian
ambassador visited the Gerovo camp on May 21. He found the Hungarians living
in
crowded and sordid facilities. Only two days earlier the camp commandant had
ordered a double barbed-wire fence which surrounded the camp and the corner
watch
towers which made it, in fact, indistinguishable from a concentration camp, to
be
dismantled. There were 1,400 Hungarian refugees crowded into three large
barrack
blocks which were originally designed to accommodate 600 soldiers. One large
room
with double-decker steel beds cramped close to each other housed about 200
single
girls. A few small rooms contained three to four families per room, but most
families
lived with unmarried refugees in the large, crowded, dingy, and
unpleasant-smelling
dormitory rooms. They did not even have the convenience of a dining hall, all
meals
being carried in tin plates from the barrack entrance to be eaten on the beds.
Only the
children were fed separately.38  Some of the refugees became disillusioned and
returned to Hungary. By the middle of May 2,288 Hungarian refugees were
repatriated
from Yugoslavia to Hungary. Juveniles under 14 were forcefully returned, 66 to
that
date.39 Nevertheless, the number of Hungarian refugees in Yugoslavia was still
9,949
as of July 5.40

        In Ottawa the inter-departmental struggle continued. Laval Fortier
complained
that he was pressured to accept more than the announced 1,000 refugees from
Yugoslavia.41  The United NationsU refugee commissioner begged the Canadian
government  to accept an additional number of Hungarian refugees from
Yugoslavia
Rover and above [the] offer already so generously made.S42 Auguste Lindt
wished to
know whether there was any chance that Canada might do something further
either in
financial support or by taking more refugees. In his reply Ignatieff expressed
the
opinion that further consideration would probably have to wait until after
elections in
Canada.43 He was correct.  Immigration, wrote Laval Fortier to Jules Lger in
mid-
May, was not prepared to agree to accept a larger number of Hungarian refugees
from
Yugoslavia. He gave new reasons, practical ones, for his departmentUs
decision:
RAlthough we do not want to admit the fact publicly, there is no doubt that we
are
experiencing much more difficulty in the placing of the Hungarian refugees
than we do
with the other immigrants...it is not felt that it would be advisable to take
steps to accept
additional groups of Hungarian refugees.S44 The decision was not accepted as
final
by External Affairs and its diplomats. George Ignatieff pressed for the
acceptance for
1,000 more Hungarian refugees still stranded in Yugoslavia. At the end of July
he
repeated his request to the newly elected Conservative government but without
success.45

        During the first week of May, 1957, the first major breakthrough came
for
Yugoslavia. France offered asylum to 1,500 Hungarian refugees. Belgium took
493.46
On August 22 Australia announced the acceptance of 5,000 more  Hungarian
refugees, including 2,000 from Yugoslavia. Sweden, Denmark and New Zealand
also
accepted refugees from Yugoslavia. By now,   as recommended by Immigration,
Prime
Minister DiefenbakerUs new team shut the door in the face of the Hungarians
still in
camps in Europe and elsewhere.  On July 31, Cabinet decided to end all
admission of
refugees.

        Laval Fortier told his new minister of immigration:  RThere is no
doubt that the
Hungarian refugee emergency is over. In the past we wanted to relieve Austria
of its
burden...I would recommend therefore...that...no further free transportation
be provided
for Hungarian refugees...[and] thus as of January 1, 1958, the Hungarian
Refugee
Movement as such to be discontinued.S47 Davie Fulton, the Acting Minister of
Immigration, was in an embarrassing position. In 1956 while in opposition he
had
advocated the admission of the Hungarians as refugees. Now he was forced to
reverse his position. Initially, he wanted to continue the policy of free
passage. That is
what he proposed to Cabinet on July 10. He was opposed among others by the
Treasury Board and his own senior civil servants. He lost the first round.
Then Fulton
revived the question when UN High Commissioner, Dr. Lindt, began to   press
Canada
for the admission of more Hungarians from Yugoslavia. Lindt asked for 1,000.
Fulton
proposed 500 and more if other western countries would exceed that number.48
On
October 4 Cabinet agreed to admit 700 Hungarian refugees from Yugoslavia by 31
March 1958.49 This was not considered an expensive enterprise and Fulton's
honour
was saved in the process.

        A new Canadian immigration team was then sent to Yugoslavia. They
interviewed 774 refugees of whom 338 were sponsored and 343 were not. They
refused the application of 77; 16 withdrew their applications. The rest were
issued
visas to enter Canada.  Two hundred refugees were moved by rail to Vienna and,
thence, by air to Dorval. A large group of 499 were send to Trieste and from
there to
Halifax via the S.S.Vulcania.  On January 20, 1958, the S.S.Vulcania  arrived
at
Halifax with its Hungarian refugees from Yugoslavia. 50

        Between October 1956 and June 1960, 19,880 Hungarian refugees crossed
the
border to Yugoslavia. During the same period 2,700 of them repatriated, the
rest,
except for 500, left for other countries.  Canada took  1765,51 about ten per
cent of the
total. This was far less than CanadaUs share of the Hungarian refugee
movement,
which was twenty per cent. The Canadian interdepartmental struggle ended in a
compromise policy. In the end not all but one thirds of the refugees,
ExternalUs
Rbeloved HungariansS, who desired to emigrate to Canada were accepted,
transported
and aided, ironically by the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, in
settling
themselves in their new overseas homeland.
+ - please help to translate for people who need a special (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Can anybody help me to translate this into hungarian.
It is a diet for people who can't have gluten.
I want to go on holiday to Hungary and it helps me
to stay healthy and not get sick.

The translation will go to an non-profit organisation
so that other people can also visit hungary and enjoy
the food.

This is an german version from the organisation but you
can help them to have more languages avalilable.

Please e-mail to : 

thanks in advance,

Joeri Belis, Belgium

************************* translate from here ************************

Gl|tenfreies didt:

Alle ndhrungsmittel die gl|ten enhalten sind strengstens berboten;
das sind also alle produkte die aus roggen, weizen, hafer und
gerste zusammengesetzr sind.

Nicht erlaubt:

Brot
Zwieback
Paniermehl (Brvsel)
Roggenbrot
Honigkuchen
Kuchen

Salzkeks
Weizen-griesmelh
Pulver
Melh
Gebdck
Kuckenmehl

Fertig-suppen
Fertig-saucen
Nudeln(Macaroni)
Fadennudeln
Spaggetti
Wurst

Gestattet:

Reis
Cornflakes
Riceflakes

Buchweizenmehl
Sojamehl
Maizena
Pudding
Maismehl

Tips f|r die zusammensetzung von Glutenfreie Mahlzeiten

Das FR\HST\CK kvnnte bestehen aus : schinken un ei
                                    Joghurt mit cornflakes
                                    Milch mit Cornflakes
                                    Maisgries-oder Maizenasuppe

Das MITTAGESSEN : Alle sorten fleisch nich paniert und die sauce mit
                  maizena oder sojamelh zubereiret
                  Kein melh grbrauchen
                  Kartoffeln, gekocht oder gebacken

Das NACHTISCH: Alle sorten fr|chte, Fr|chtebrei. Krem oder Pudding aus
               maizena oder reismelh.
               Reis eventuell mit obstbrie. Eis

Das ABENDESSEN : Omelette (ohne melh) mit milch, maizena oder sojamelh,
mit
                 pilzen, gem|se, fleish oder fisch gef|llt
                 Salat ist gestattet wenn nicht miet salatsauce
zubereitet
                 Gestattet ist auch selbstgemacht Mayonnaise zubereitet
it
                 ei, vl, essig und krautern
+ - Re: Need Genealogy Researcher (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Bratislava is the current capital of the Slovak Republic.
+ - Re: Books on the Conquest (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

"Eva S. Balogh" > wrote:

>        Because we have had so an interesting exchange on early Hungarian
>history, people might be interested in two new books by Gyula Kristo.

Also, this very recent article addresses the use of genetics and
statistics for discriminating against different Hungarian ethnic
groups:

AU GUGLIELMINO-CR.  BERES-J.
TI   GENETIC STRUCTURE IN RELATION TO THE HISTORY OF HUNGARIAN ETHNIC
       GROUPS.
SO HUMAN-BIOLOGY.  1996, JUN, V68, N3, P335-355.
    ISSN 0018-7143.
 AB The present analysis continues the study of 12 samples of 11
 Hungarian ethnic groups and a collection of data from 8 foreign
 reference populations.  The origin of these groups is entangled with
 the history of Hungary and specifically with the conquest of the
 Carpathian basin in the ninth century A.D.  Given that each of the 11
 groups has preserved its ethnic identity and assuming that genetic
 drift has played a major role, we expect that similarities and
 differences between the different Hungarian groups and between the
 Hungarian groups and the eight reference populations can be
 interpreted with respect to the controversial origin of the groups.
 The reference populations are those whose ancestors had high
 involvement in Hungarian history, We use multivariate statistical
 methods to analyze the gene frequencies of 22 loci.  The results show
 that the Hungarian ethnic groups are genetically separate and that
 this separation is related to different migration waves.  According
 to our results, Gypsies and Jews, who migrated relatively recently to
 Hungary, are distant from the other groups and, as predicted, appear
 to be genetically close to the North Indian and Ashkenazi reference
 populations, respectively.  The Oriental population is least related
 to the Hungarian groups, but the distance diminishes when the P1
 locus, which shows particularly high variability, is included.  Some
ethnic groups, especially Orseg and Csango, show genetic isolation
and specific affinities with the reference populations that are
related to their origin, namely, Slavs and Finns-Turks-Iranians,
respectively.  Other affinities were less striking than tradition
would lead us to expect.  Gene flow and admixture, as revealed by the
significant correlation between genetic and geographic distances, may
have played an important role in smoothing genetic differences
between groups.
+ - Re: subscribe HUNGARY (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...

> Well, both George's are right - it's not the best thing to bother Hugh
>when one can subscribe oneself via the LISTSERV, although naturally he'd
>set it right when gets around dealing with it.
> Unfortunately (despite my repeated requests to do so) Jozsi is not doing
>nearly enough to clarify the distinction between the HIX gateway and the
>list per se, and the problems caused by this are compounded by the
>subscriber-only policy in effect for the list proper (which is a good
>restriction IMHO, given the incredible amount of trash heaped on most
>every open email lists these days).

What is all this about having to subscribe to blh? Cannot anyone with
(freely available) Usenet newsreader software and an ISP connection
just post to blh via Usenet as I do? I only stumbled on blh by scrolling
through the ngs listed by my ISP server of a couple of years ago.

A third George! :-)

--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy **** NW London Computer Club **** ICPUG
+ - Does anybody know what this is? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Subj:  No Subject
>Date:  96-06-27 19:42:07 EDT
>From:  
>Reply-to:       (MEgorov)
>To:     (Ferenc Novak)
>
>Subject: Re: "Marshall Plan"
>X-Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
>References: >
>In-Reply-To: >
>
>COUNTRY: Hungary
>CULTURE: NON EUROPEAN ( MONGOLIC TURKS)
>RACE:NON EUROPEAN (URAL MONGOLIC)
>RELIGION: Imposed(CHRISTIAN)
>HISTORY: Mercenaries( by the will of god or ROME)
>ECONOMY:Depending on Austria & Germany
>POLICY: Commanded by Austro -GERMS
>FUTURE: DEFINITELY UNKNOWN ( BY past and SWW2 REASONS)
>
>Note: I do not understand why the Hungarians are not proud of their
>heritage?

I received not one but three of these weird messages today.  Has anyone else?
 Does anyone know whose sick joke this might be?  I don't intend to answer to
the sender.

Ferenc
+ - Re: Monostori (californian wine) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

COUNTRY: Hungary
CULTURE: NON EUROPEAN ( MONGOLIC TURKS)
RACE:NON EUROPEAN (URAL MONGOLIC)
RELIGION: Imposed(CHRISTIAN)
HISTORY: Mercenaries( by the will of god or ROME)
ECONOMY:Depending on Austria & Germany
POLICY: Commanded by Austro -GERMS
FUTURE: DEFINITELY UNKNOWN ( BY past and SWW2 REASONS)

Note: I do not understand why the Hungarians are not proud of their
heritage?
+ - Re: on careless cross-reference... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Antony wrote in Hungary 711:

>Ference [sic!] Novak wrote:
>
>>  He attempted to write to this list also, but was prevented access.  (I
>> advised him to write to Hugh Agnew to fix this.)
>
>Wrong advice.  He should have simply subscribed to this list and have no
>more problems.  For, to reduce unsolicited advertising, this list only
>accepts contributions from subscribers, a change that was apparently made
>before you joined.
>
>George Antony

Now I am confused.  I had been a subscriber and contributor to
 (just like Gyorgy Jalsovszky is, I believe).  At some point
my postings were no longer accepted.  They were returned with a blurb
indicating that I was not authorized to post here.  At that point I wrote to
Hugh who then removed the barrier.

I think all of that happened after the Szucs Andras affair.  Did anyone else
have a similar experience?

Ferenc
+ - Correction: Net abuse complaint procedure (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  says...
>
>Dear All,
>
>Do NOT reply to the perpetrator of net abuse. Complain to your own sysadmin
>and the postmaster at the perpetrator's ISP (e.g., ).

Or in this case to:



(as I've just discovered.) Don't forget to ask your own postmaster to
block the perpetrator's future mail.

--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy **** NW London Computer Club **** ICPUG
+ - Net abuse complaint procedure (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear All,

Do NOT reply to the perpetrator of net abuse. Complain to your own sysadmin
and the postmaster at the perpetrator's ISP (e.g., ).
If you ALL do this individually the perpetrator should lose their net
connection pretty quickly. I dealt with a recent case of harassment from
an unbalanced character with the above procedure (it worked.)

--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy **** NW London Computer Club **** ICPUG
+ - Wanted: Sanitation Engineer (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

SUBJECT: MEgorov the Village Idiot's son, is out again

It comes as no surprise to us, Megorov has left the Kalashikov State
Mental Hospital.

He tries to get a decent paying job (Sanitation Engineer) with an above
average pay of 4.00 (that's  "chitiri") Rubels a month, but luck seems to
turn the other cheek.

We're sure he's unemployed, for he has more time to practice his broken
English on the Net.

His mother, the one who has had the legendary deep 15 minutes
relationship, with the local Village Idiot, would like to help him, yet
she barely ekes a living herself on her 2.00 (that's  "dva") Rubels a
month pension.

His boyfriend, who almost has gotten him pregnant, doesn't care for his
amorous advances anymore.

So what does our Stupid Bastard do? ...

He practices his broken English on the Net.



" I'm a legend in my own mind "  ... Slavic Proverb...



Dr. Laszlo
+ - I'M A LEGEND IN MY OWN MIND (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

SUBJECT: LEGEND

It comes as no surprise to us, Megorov has left the Kalashikov State
Mental Hospital.

He tries to get a decent paying job (Sanitation Engineer) with an above
average pay of 4.00 (that's  "chitiri") Rubels a month, but luck seems to
turn the other cheek.

We're sure he's unemployed, for he has more time to practice his broken
English on the Net.

His mother, the one who has had the legendary deep 15 minutes
relationship, with the local Village Idiot, would like to help him, yet
she barely ekes a living herself on her 2.00 (that's  "dva") Rubels a
month pension.

His boyfriend, who almost has gotten him pregnant, doesn't care for his
amorous advances anymore.

So what does our Stupid Bastard do? ...

He practices his broken English on the Net.



" I'm a legend in my own mind "  ... Slavic Proverb...



Dr. Laszlo
+ - MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY FOR HUNGARIANS AT HOME AND ABR (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

A MULTIBILLION (6.3 in 1995 to be more preciselly) dollar american corporation
has recently opened the Hungarian market. Given the success they had in
Poland, and the popularity  is enjoing already in Hungary. There is very
little finacial risk involved in joining their team and those who join early
have a high chance of ending up in leadership positions in a couple of years
(and this means SERIOUS MONEY even for american standards!). Some are already
enjoying the fruits of this rapid expansion. The best thing is that you do not
have to quit your job to make it work (I still spend ten hours per day in the
lab) unless this will start paying so well that you will just quit yourself.
For hungarians at home this is a great chance to make money with almost no
risk (it is within the possibilities of an average income) and for the ones
abroad this is a win-win possibility: can make more money for yourself AND
help your friends and relatives at home live better without you paying for
that ( :) isn't that great? I plan to help my family join as soon as
possible). Well anyway, I cannot tell you more without starting to advertise
so if you are curious about making some extra money (without quiting your job)
send me a mail at
 or write (O.P. Jurma, 716 1/2 W 30th Street, Los Angeles, CA
90007)
and I will get back to you with more information and real numbers.
Best wishes
JPO

PS> This offer is not limited to hungarians and certainly is not bound to any
country, so you can expand in the neighbouring countries which are going to
open soon.
PPS> And, just in case, THIS IS FOR REAL, I do not have time to make silly
jokes.
+ - Re: Corporate Citizen of the Week Award (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In what seems to be a debate about the role of teacher's unions with
respect to the quality of education, a topic related to the topic of this
list only tangentially in that Hungary's teachers' unions are expressing
dissatisfaction with both their compensation and the educational policies
of the government, (what else is new? :-) ) Charles Vamossy wrote:

>As far as teacher's pay is concerned, it should be determined by the
>market, just like any other profession's.

Let's see,  how would this work in practice?  Would we go to Mr./Ms. Market
and have him or her rule on each teacher's compensation package?

No?

What I am trying to point out, is that the market, as such, doesn't
determine prices and wages or anything else.  The market is a system, which
when it is operating more or less freely, *allows* buyers and sellers to
bargain and agree on a price for a good or service.  People can bargain
individually or form associations and bargain collectively.  School boards
are already associations of a sort, and not even voluntary ones, since they
are agencies of governments. Why then should teacher's right to free
association be taken away?

Someone might reply that unions are not free associations because all
employees at a job site where there are no "right to work" laws (an
orvellian concept if ever there was one) may be compelled to join the union
if there is a closed shop.  But a closed shop is merely the result of a
voluntary contract between employers and employees arrived through their
representatives and no one compells anyone to accept a job at a closed
shop.

The attitude Mr. Vamossy seems to project is unfortunately common among
those whose knowledge of economic relationships consists of memories of the
Bolshevism of Eastern Europe and the idealism of nineteenth century
liberalism and an abismal ignorance of the history of left wing politics in
the West, notably the history of the labour movement in North America.  A
lot of heads were broken in the course of earning the right to bargain
collectively for us to go back to when unions were considered "associations
in restraint of trade".

It continues to amaze me, that the much praised, so called,
'entrepreneurial' class has not thought of a cleverer way to solve problems
then by brute force and must continue to fight to reverse reforms that it
allowed when the 'wolf', (or should I say the 'bear') was at the door in
the late 30's and early 40's.

Maybe Uncle Karl was right, bourgeoise consciousness *is* determined after all?

Tibor Benke


Communism was a consequence of Capitalism, have we learned anything?
+ - Re: Corporate Citizen of the Week Award (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "Charles M.
Vamossy" > writes:

>As far as teacher's pay is concerned, it should be determined by the
>market, just like any other profession's.  I am sure that the Chapel
>Hill school district pays more and gets better teachers than the
>neighboring counties because they are willing to pay more for
>excellence, not because they have a good union.
>
>
>regards,
>
>
>
>
>Charlie Vamossy
>
>
>
Hi, Charlie!
Actually, I don't think they're unionized at all. (does membership in the
North Carolina Association of Educators count? They don't do any kind of
collective bargaining for any of their members, to my knowledge, but they
are pretty powerful politically at the state and local levels.) You're
also leaving out the demographic part of the equation. Chapel Hill is a
university town and the make-up of the student body in its schools is
skewed accordingly. The rest of Orange County outside Chapel Hill is in a
separate school district whose students perform more toward the state
average. Maybe the major factor in quality between the two school systems
is that you can lead a native-born Southerner to culture, but you can't
make him think. (pace Dorothy Parker.) Anyway, we'd love to have you move
down here when you retire. Just promise you'll vote in favor of school
construction bonds when they come up at referendum.
Sam Stowe

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------------------"Ana Ng and I are
getting old and we still haven't
walked in the glow of each other's majestic presence..." -- TMBG
+ - Re: Education in crisis (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  (MEgorov)
writes:

>Subject:       Re: Education in crisis
>From:   (MEgorov)
>Date:  27 Jun 1996 19:59:11 -0400
>
>COUNTRY: Hungary
>CULTURE: NON EUROPEAN ( MONGOLIC TURKS)
>RACE:NON EUROPEAN (URAL MONGOLIC)
>RELIGION: Imposed(CHRISTIAN)
>HISTORY: Mercenaries( by the will of god or ROME)
>ECONOMY:Depending on Austria & Germany
>POLICY: Commanded by Austro -GERMS
>FUTURE: DEFINITELY UNKNOWN ( BY past and SWW2 REASONS)
>
>Note: I do not understand why the Hungarians are not proud of their
>heritage?
>
>

I have filed a complaint with America On-Line, you spamming moron. Anyone
else who'd like to do so as well should send their complaint to

Sam Stowe

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------------------------"Ana Ng and I are
getting old and we still haven't
walked in the glow of each other's majestic presence..." -- TMBG
+ - HELP with GOSPELS TEXT (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I am looking for the text of the four gospels in Church Slavonic )classic
and newer reduction)
 forward this message to the convenient list too please.
Thanks in advance Somosva'ri Be'la

AGYKONTROLL ALLAT AUTO AZSIA BUDAPEST CODER DOSZ FELVIDEK FILM FILOZOFIA FORUM GURU HANG HIPHOP HIRDETES HIRMONDO HIXDVD HUDOM HUNGARY JATEK KEP KONYHA KONYV KORNYESZ KUKKER KULTURA LINUX MAGELLAN MAHAL MOBIL MOKA MOZAIK NARANCS NARANCS1 NY NYELV OTTHON OTTHONKA PARA RANDI REJTVENY SCM SPORT SZABAD SZALON TANC TIPP TUDOMANY UK UTAZAS UTLEVEL VITA WEBMESTER WINDOWS