Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 955
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-03-28
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  75 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  58 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  49 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  57 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Wild West [was: Anglo-Saxons] (mind)  62 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  113 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 28 Mar 1997, Sam Stowe wrote to Jeliko:
>
> How many did you save personally? What makes you think what an earlier
> generation of your "family" did is somehow transitive to you? Judging from
 your
> response, it isn't. Next, I suppose, you or one
> of your ilk will trot out the equally worthless "Some of my best friends
> are..." argument.
>
and
>
> You're trying to pimp for a world view which segregated out large numbers of
> people and murdered them en masse, a world view which still has some great
> degree of currency in Hungary. (although as I
> have pointed out before and you have conveniently overlooked, it is most
> decidely not the view shared by the overwhelming majority of Hungarians) The
> first step in re-empowering this evil is by
> denying the historical record, which is what you and your soul mates are
 trying
> to do. You're better off sticking with the long-haired barbarian portion of
> Hungarian history.
> Sam Stowe
> ---------

   The above statements I guess, Sam,  are the mirrows of your fair-
ness and tolerance. Your pontificating is sickening, I am wondrering
what all this  bravado is intended  to cover up!  Perhaps the "moral
pureness" of the South has something to do with it.
                                                    Amos
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:41 AM 3/28/97 +1000, Denes wrote:

>I rather consider numerus clausus as a response of the time to increased
demand and tight budget conditions.

        That is off the mark, I think. This was not the reason for the
enactment of the law. ESB
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>To: Denes BOGSANYI >
>From:  (jeliko)
>Subject: RE: numerus clausus in the U.S.
>
>Denes Bogsanyi writes:
>
>
>>Thank you for a very clear exposition. I think we have to face the facts
that Hungary had a large Jewish population, the communist "glorious 133
days" which at its fall resulted in Romanian troops in Budapest was led and
controlled by Jews and there was a steady influx of Jews from Gallicia into
Hungary as a result of that region being ceded to the newly created Poland.
My father served in a battallion in WW I which had a large minority of Jews
mostly from Budapest. He had only good to say of them concerning their
behaviour during the final days of the war.
>
>I am not agreeing with you that there were justification for the 1920
numerus clausus.
>What I have stated earlier that it was not strictly enforced. The major
change came in the late 30s early 40s when the Jewish population of Hungary
was in fact largely prevented from higher education.
>
>It is easy to find post facto explanations for many things. There was only
limited immigration to Hungary by Jews after Trianon. If anything the
percentage of Jewish population has decreased after the event and the
remnant Jewish population of Hungary was the far more assimilated portion
compared to the ones who were in the detached territories. The percentage of
Jewish poulation increased in Hungary only after various areas were
reattached to Hungary.
>
>The early 20s Hungarian leadership was in fact practicing a dual policy
toward the Jews.
>It counted those Jews who were in the detached territories as Hungarians in
its polemics toward the west while switching to calling them a non Hungarian
race internally. The irony of this has never been acknowledged bu the
Hungarian chauvinist circles.
>
>Regards,Jeliko
>
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh in response to Denes:

>At 07:41 AM 3/28/97 +1000, Denes wrote:
>
>>I rather consider numerus clausus as a response of the time to increased
>demand and tight budget conditions.
>
>        That is off the mark, I think. This was not the reason for the
>enactment of the law. ESB

As far as I know, that excuse was not used even by the enactors. It was
basically aimed at the Jews of Hungary. It certainly was not used against
the German minority which is the only one Hungary had at that time estimated
to be slightly larger percentage than the Jews.

The Hungarian delegate to the League of nations discussion stated that "
There is no international obligation in existence by which a state could be
compelled to give education to large number of intellectuals class which it
would be unable to support."

He also claimed that the government regarded this measure as a favor to the
Jews, since universities were unwilling to accept "unpatriotic" candidates
and, if not for the numerus clausus, would not accept any Jews at all.

Thus the brushing of all Jews for the participation in the Bela Kun affair
with the same brush, in spite of that it was obvious to the government that
most Jews abhorred the actions of Bela Kun as well as that of the rest of
the population. This "collectivizing" of guilt is what I am objecting to
regardless of who applies it and in what manner. The
propagandized assignment of a blame for the actions of a few, is one of seed
to events
that led up to the holocast and all systematic slaughter of people before
and since then.

I will not condone this type of generalization from anyone, whether it is
aimed at Jews, Hungarians, Bosnians, Hutus or anyone else.

Regards,Jeliko
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam Stowe writes:

>
>How far did Seton-Watson and the rest of his bloodless little crowd get with
>their anti-semitism? To the point of rounding up all of Britain's Jews and
>deporting them to Nazi death camps? No? Why
>not? Could it be that theirs was no more than a fringe element in the British
>body politic?

Do not underestimate the fringe elements of any society. Want to guess what
would have happened in the UK if it was occupied by the Germans. Just look
at the Vichy French and other governments which were set up by fringe
element collaborators, they were more efficient in extreminating Jews than
the Hungarian fringe elements. Do not assume superioroty on part of any
nation, that is how the Nazia started, it does not lead to
a tolarant society.


>
>>
>>There is nothing to excuse anyone for racial hatred or discrimination, but
>>lets not get sanctimoneous about the general problem of antisemitism and
>>blame only one country or a particular population in toto. Our family has
>>saved two Jews during the turmoil of Hungary, one by hiding, one by post
>>facto adoption and changes in the birth and marriage certificates. Both
>>people survived the war. How many Jews did you save? Please do not use the
>>general US participation in WW II as an answer.
>
>How many did you save personally? What makes you think what an earlier
>generation of your "family" did is somehow transitive to you? Judging from you
r
>response, it isn't. Next, I suppose, you or one
>of your ilk will trot out the equally worthless "Some of my best friends
>are..." argument.
>

I am very proud of those memebrs of my family who under life threat stood up
for their
fellow Hungarians. Your diatribe will never change that. Your accusation
toward a whole nation based on acts of a few is exactly what resulted in
antisemitism in Hungary. You would have fit in well with the generalizing
attitudes you have expressed. I personally have not saved anyone at that
time because I was too young, however I am equally proud of saving a large
group of people including Jews in 1956. Who my friends are is my business.


>
>You're trying to pimp for a world view which segregated out large numbers of
>people and murdered them en masse, a world view which still has some great
>degree of currency in Hungary.

Whenever you and up on the short side of facts, you always switch to
personal insults, it is not unexpected.

(although as I
>have pointed out before and you have conveniently overlooked, it is most
>decidely not the view shared by the overwhelming majority of Hungarians)

It is nice if you would follow the above sentence instead of accusing a
nation in toto of acts committed by a very small fraction of them.

>The
>first step in re-empowering this evil is by
>denying the historical record, which is what you and your soul mates are tryin
g
>to do. You're better off sticking with the long-haired barbarian portion of
>Hungarian history.

Ah, Sam change the names of races or people and you could be goosestepping
with your
sentiments. By the way to deny the historical record one has to be familiar
somewhat with the history, which in regard to Hungary does not seem to be
your strongpoint.

Jeliko
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh writes:
>        Seton-Watson is one of the less savory characters of the historical
>profession. If one can call him a historian. "Propagandist" would be a more
>apt description.

I refered to him as a "political writer", which may be too kind. But I found
the mentioned quote from "Racial Problems in Hungary" 1908 [he wrote under
the alias "Scotus Viator", describing exploitation of Slovaks, Romanians and
Ruthens :

"Weiss, Kohn, Lowy, Weinberger, Klein, Rosenfeld, Ehrenfeld, Gansl, Grunfeld
conceal their identity under the pseudonyms of Veszi, Kardos, Lukacs, Biro,
Kis, Rado, Erdelyi, Gonda, Mezei"

Unfortunately, his highly propagandized tomes are still being used to spread
anti Hungarianism by some nationalists of various ilk. If one reads his
book, it is obvious that he was not only antihungarian but a virulent
antisemite.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "Miklos K. Hoffmann"
> writes:

>
>Sam, don4t you twist his statements in such a way that you may
>look down on his moral inferiority? Again, forgive, if I err.
>In my perception, he was expaining what he believes happened.
>IMHO, he didn4t say : it is a legitimate basis. Economic nece-
>sity explains a lot. But explaining alone DOES NOT LEGITIMATE.
>As already said, it is necessary to understand the different
>mechanisms working in real-existing situations...

"Explanation", as you well know, often tacitly confers legitimacy. Ever heard
the old saying, "To understand all is to forgive all?" If you haven't picked up
on Denes' rhetorical aims by now, you're
not going to. Oh, and I have compared this situation to the treatment of
American blacks and the Ku Klux Klan one or two times on this thread. I'd like
for you to explain how this is somehow
smoothing out the bad parts of American history. Your Americaphilia is as
substantial as an overripe dandelion.
Sam Stowe

"If you hear a Southerner say, 'Hey, y'all, watch this!',
move away from him immediately. They're usually
the last words he'll ever utter..."
-- from "Southbound," a primer for our Northern friends
contemplating a move to the promised land.
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:40 AM 3/28/97 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

<snip>
>The numerus clausus of 1920--as far as I can ascertain--came
>about for two reasons: (1) bring "balance" to the mix of the Hungarian
>intellectual and professional elite; (2) to appease the right radicals. I
>personally don't like appeasement. It never really works. And I don't
>believe in bringing religious/ethnic "balance" by artificial means.
>Therefore, I can only condemn this particular legislation. It also portrayed
>Hungary in a much worse light than it actually deserved.
>
>        When it comes to the general population, all recent surveys indicate
>that the Hungarian situation as far as antisemitism goes is about the same
>as in the surrounding countries. Not worse, not better. The figures quoted
>are quite high but not higher than in Austria, Slovakia, or Poland. Put it
>that way: a lot of education is needed in this respect in Eastern Europe.
>        ESB

Education, per se, is not a panacea against anti-Semitism anymore than it
is against racism, homophobia, sexism, or any social pathology.  It is not
a lack of education that cause these problems.

Why are so many Hungarians anti-Gypsy?  Is it due to a lack of education?
Why, even the former regime taught solidarity, taught people to be against
oppression, colonialism, imperialism etc., yet many, if not most,
Hungarians remained, and continue to be, anti-Gypsy.

In these matters, education is not a cure.  It's not even a good start for
a cure.  It's an ill conceived delusion.

Joe Szalai

Reason transformed into prejudice is the worst form of prejudice, because
reason is the only instrument for liberation from prejudice.
            -- Allan Bloom
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh writes:


>        Simply put, Denes's idea that the Hungarian parliament of 1920
simply copied an > Ivy League practice is ridiculous.

I agree, most likely the good folks did not even have a clear idea where the
ivy hang.

The problem with the numerous clausus was not the educational quota, which
strangely is the favorit idea of the liberals (at least in the US) but a
change in the thinking of
the government. Prior to WW I the Jews of Hungary were considered Hungarians
of the "Mosaic faith" i.e being a Jew was considered a religion but not a
separate race. The numerous clausus which called out racial and nationality
quotas for the first time in any official action implied a racial difference
to Hungary's Jews. (Please remember that that at that time there was also
growing Zionism which also claimed the same) At least the well established
and reasonably well assimilated Jewry of Hungary resented the change in the
sub rosa designation. Part of blame can be assigned to those who ascribed
the behavior of the communist Jews to all of the Jews of Hungary. That was
just as insiduous as the action of those who do this in the reverse now and
based on the behavior of few, assign antisemitism as a Hungarian national trait
.

But regarding the effectivness of the numerus clausus quoting from the
excellent book by Ezra Mendelsohn, professor of Contemporary Jewry at the
Hebrew University "The Jews of East Central Europe Between the World Wars":

"The numerous clausus law remained on the books but was not strictly
enforced. The number of Jewish students at institutions of higher learning
declined sharply in in 1920-1921, but in 1921-1922 it rose to 13.4 % of the
total - far higher than the Jewish percentage within the population,
although lower than in the prewar years [the percentage of Jews was also
lower in postwar Hungary than in the prewar years].....
moreover, the government insisted that it regarded the law as a temporary
measure, and it was eventually allowed to lapse."

BTW the percentage of Jewish students in Hungarian institutes of higher
learning in 1932 was 14.3 %. In the post Trianon Hungary the Jewish
population percentage in Hungary was about 5 %.

Regards,Jeliko
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, jeliko
> writes:

>I do object to your assumption that there is or was any special propensity
>in Hungary in regard to the initiation of antisemitism. There was just as
>virulent or even more so antisemitism expressed, as an example, by British
>political writers even prior to the WW I as anywhere in Hungary. An
>outstanding example is Seton-Watson who "became" anti-Hungarian because of
>antisemitism. He is on the record in stating that scratch any Hungarian and
>you find a Jew. If you or anyone alse is interested I can dig out the exact
>quotes. His basic premise in making the statement was that the Hungarians
>were oppressing the minorities, but the oppression was by Hungarian Jews.
>These and similar statements were made by him before any laws relating to
>proportional admission to universities were in existence.
>There are others of his ilk who published similar statements.

How far did Seton-Watson and the rest of his bloodless little crowd get with
their anti-semitism? To the point of rounding up all of Britain's Jews and
deporting them to Nazi death camps? No? Why
not? Could it be that theirs was no more than a fringe element in the British
body politic?

>
>There is nothing to excuse anyone for racial hatred or discrimination, but
>lets not get sanctimoneous about the general problem of antisemitism and
>blame only one country or a particular population in toto. Our family has
>saved two Jews during the turmoil of Hungary, one by hiding, one by post
>facto adoption and changes in the birth and marriage certificates. Both
>people survived the war. How many Jews did you save? Please do not use the
>general US participation in WW II as an answer.

How many did you save personally? What makes you think what an earlier
generation of your "family" did is somehow transitive to you? Judging from your
response, it isn't. Next, I suppose, you or one
of your ilk will trot out the equally worthless "Some of my best friends
are..." argument.

>
>If you want to accuse anyone, do it individually, I do resent your
>generalizations.

You're trying to pimp for a world view which segregated out large numbers of
people and murdered them en masse, a world view which still has some great
degree of currency in Hungary. (although as I
have pointed out before and you have conveniently overlooked, it is most
decidely not the view shared by the overwhelming majority of Hungarians) The
first step in re-empowering this evil is by
denying the historical record, which is what you and your soul mates are trying
to do. You're better off sticking with the long-haired barbarian portion of
Hungarian history.
Sam Stowe


"If you hear a Southerner say, 'Hey, y'all, watch this!',
move away from him immediately. They're usually
the last words he'll ever utter..."
-- from "Southbound," a primer for our Northern friends
contemplating a move to the promised land.
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:24 AM 3/27/97 -0500, Jeliko wrote:

>I do object to your assumption that there is or was any special propensity
>in Hungary in regard to the initiation of antisemitism. There was just as
>virulent or even more so antisemitism expressed, as an example, by British
>political writers even prior to the WW I as anywhere in Hungary.

        Jeliko is right about Britain and the British. I would say that
before the holocaust antisemitic utterances were judged a great deal less
harshly than today.

>An
>outstanding example is Seton-Watson who "became" anti-Hungarian because of
>antisemitism. He is on the record in stating that scratch any Hungarian and
>you find a Jew. If you or anyone alse is interested I can dig out the exact
>quotes. His basic premise in making the statement was that the Hungarians
>were oppressing the minorities, but the oppression was by Hungarian Jews.

        Seton-Watson is one of the less savory characters of the historical
profession. If one can call him a historian. "Propagandist" would be a more
apt description.

>There is nothing to excuse anyone for racial hatred or discrimination, but
>lets not get sanctimoneous about the general problem of antisemitism and
>blame only one country or a particular population in toto.

        During the liberal era after the Ausgleich the Jewish population of
Hungary made incredible strides socially, politically, and economically. As
a result many Hungarian Jews held high positions in commerce, in industry,
in banking, in the arts and sciences, and, let's add, in the social
democratic movement. The predictable reaction came even before World War I,
when a small but openly antisemitic party emerged. After the lost war and
two unfortunate so-called revolutions antisemitism flared up to
unprecedented heights but eventually was brought under control by
conservative Hungarian governments for whom radicalism of any sort was
repugnant. The numerus clausus of 1920--as far as I can ascertain--came
about for two reasons: (1) bring "balance" to the mix of the Hungarian
intellectual and professional elite; (2) to appease the right radicals. I
personally don't like appeasement. It never really works. And I don't
believe in bringing religious/ethnic "balance" by artificial means.
Therefore, I can only condemn this particular legislation. It also portrayed
Hungary in a much worse light than it actually deserved.

        When it comes to the general population, all recent surveys indicate
that the Hungarian situation as far as antisemitism goes is about the same
as in the surrounding countries. Not worse, not better. The figures quoted
are quite high but not higher than in Austria, Slovakia, or Poland. Put it
that way: a lot of education is needed in this respect in Eastern Europe.
        ESB
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:29 PM 3/27/97 +0100, Miklos wrote:
>Sam Stowe wrote:

>> You are implying that Hungary followed some kind of lead from the U.S. >in
> erecting numerus causus. This is specious as far as the historical >record
> goes.
>>
>Please help me, Sam! Are you trying to say that the people of the
>U.S.A. are, were above such ideas as numerus clausus?

        No, I don't think that is what Sam meant. Simply put, Denes's idea
that the Hungarian parliament of 1920 simply copied an Ivy League practice
is ridiculous.
        ESB
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:38 PM 3/28/97 -0500, Jeliko wrote:

<snip>
>This "collectivizing" of guilt is what I am objecting to
>regardless of who applies it and in what manner. The
>propagandized assignment of a blame for the actions of a few, is one of seed
>to events that led up to the holocast and all systematic slaughter of
people >before and since then.
>
>I will not condone this type of generalization from anyone, whether it is
>aimed at Jews, Hungarians, Bosnians, Hutus or anyone else.

What about the Gypsies?  What about the Gypsies?

And please don't tell me that only a few Hungarians are guilty vis-a-vis
Hungarian Gypsies.  After soccer, discrimination against Gypsies is a
national sport.  The discrimination against Gypsies is, and was, so
widespread that 'numerus clausus' didn't even enter the picture.

The continued discrimination against Hungarian Gypsies is Hungary's
national shame.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I based my previous statement on the fact that Count Teleki, the prime minister
 of the time, and many in his government  had close contact with and admiration
 for Britain and all things British. I do not quite understand why you regard n
umerus clausus if practiced openly in Hungary as vulgar and reprehensible while
 the same practice by Ivy League Universities in the USA and by some institutio
ns in Germany and Britain since these were not explicit cause no comment. I rat
her consider numerus clausus as a response of the time to increased demand and 
tight budget conditions. We can argue that it was not a correct response but it
 was a fairly widespread response of the time. 

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  E.S. Balogh[SMTP:]
Sent:  Friday, 28 March 1997 4:57
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: numerus clausus in the U.S.

At 10:57 PM 3/26/97 GMT, San Stowe wrote:
>There were
>plenty of German political thinkers and philosophers in the immediate post-war
>era, men like Carl Schmitt and Ernst Junger, who gave shape to a far-right
>philosophy embracing many of the same vulgarities which gave rise to German
>national socialism and Hungarian anti-Semitism. I suggest you start there
>looking for the wellspring of numerus clausus rather than in the U.S. and
>Britain.

        Even closer to home. Try Austria where the Fuehrer himself came
from. Karl Lueger, for example. ESB
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thank you for a very clear exposition. I think we have to face the facts that H
ungary had a large Jewish population, the communist "glorious 133 days" which a
t its fall resulted in Romanian troops in Budapest was led and controlled by Je
ws and there was a steady influx of Jews from Gallicia into Hungary as a result
 of that region being ceded to the newly created Poland. My father served in a 
battallion in WW I which had a large minority of Jews mostly from Budapest. He 
had only good to say of them concerning their behaviour during the final days o
f the war.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  jeliko[SMTP:]
Sent:  Friday, 28 March 1997 2:24
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: numerus clausus in the U.S.

Sam Stowe writes:     (parts deleted)


>It's just as well that you don't. You'd probably still get it wrong. There wer
e
>plenty of German political thinkers and philosophers in the immediate post-war
>era, men like Carl Schmitt and Ernst Junger, who gave shape to a far-right
>philosophy embracing many of the same vulgarities which gave rise to German
>national socialism and Hungarian anti-Semitism. I suggest you start there
>looking for the wellspring of numerus clausus rather than in the U.S. and
>Britain.

I do object to your assumption that there is or was any special propensity
in Hungary in regard to the initiation of antisemitism. There was just as
virulent or even more so antisemitism expressed, as an example, by British
political writers even prior to the WW I as anywhere in Hungary. An
outstanding example is Seton-Watson who "became" anti-Hungarian because of
antisemitism. He is on the record in stating that scratch any Hungarian and
you find a Jew. If you or anyone alse is interested I can dig out the exact
quotes. His basic premise in making the statement was that the Hungarians
were oppressing the minorities, but the oppression was by Hungarian Jews.
These and similar statements were made by him before any laws relating to
proportional admission to universities were in existence.
There are others of his ilk who published similar statements.

There is nothing to excuse anyone for racial hatred or discrimination, but
lets not get sanctimoneous about the general problem of antisemitism and
blame only one country or a particular population in toto. Our family has
saved two Jews during the turmoil of Hungary, one by hiding, one by post
facto adoption and changes in the birth and marriage certificates. Both
people survived the war. How many Jews did you save? Please do not use the
general US participation in WW II as an answer.

If you want to accuse anyone, do it individually, I do resent your
generalizations.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I grew up in Transylvania where the history of Hungary was not a subject
matter in schools (even Hungarian schools, of which I attended one).
Therefore I am missing a lot of information. For example: can the
governments of Hungary between the Kun Bela affair and the Szalasi putsch be
defined as democratically elected ones?

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Wild West [was: Anglo-Saxons] (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  (George Szaszvari)
writes:

>Howdy, pardner,

Same to ya, pilgrim!

>
>Although the famous Ranger's gesture was no doubt appreciated, can
>you, in all honesty, picture those gun-totin' Texans drawling their
>way around quaint villages of SE England in the anti-sabotage cop
>role Hamer sought? Shoot-outs with trigger happy desperadoes in the
>States is one thing, but counter-intelligence ops in wartime England
>was probably best handled by the home forces in their own back yard,
>doncha think? Anyway, later on there was a high-profile American of
>the "kick ass" school of philosophy ;-) in Britain, viz: one George
>Smith Patton, pearl handled revolvers 'n all (did he ever sling those
>irons in earnest?).

I wish you lived here in the States so you could hear the good general giving
one of his daily briefings on Don Imus' nationally-syndicated radio program.
("Private, give me a Vince Foster on those
lights." Ratatatatatat! "Cease fire, cease fire! God, I love it so!") One of my
professors in grad school has written several books on Patton and regaled us
with examples of his poetry. If you can
imagine really bad verse married to insane aggression and a firm belief in
reincarnation, you basically have Patton's ouevre without actually having to go
through the agony of having to read it.
Endre Ady he wasn't.

>
>Getting back to some Hungarian-specific interest, the gunfighter Doc
>Holliday (Wyatt Earp's buddy) had a girlfriend known as "Big Nose Kate"
>(supposedly an attractive woman, despite the name) and that she was
>of an aristocratic Hungarian family. Any further info? I'm generally
>interested in stories about Hungarians who contributed to the Wild
>West heritage

I'm familiar with Big Nose Kate (and she wasn't beautiful. I've seen pictures
of her and the nickname, while harsh, pretty accurately sums up Kate's
profile.) and I have heard she was from a
Hungarian family. Kate, by the way, was played by the sultry Polish actress
Johanna Pacula in the movie "Tombstone" a few years back. If you haven't seen
it, I highly recommend it. Val Kilmer's
portrayal of Doc Holliday is electrifying -- both good and bad. It's a
memorable performance, but you begin to wonder after awhile how Kilmer will
ever digest all the scenery he's chewing.  I will
dig around and see if I can come up with any info on Hungarians who rode the
range or at least worked on the set of a John Wayne movie.

>
>S'long.

Take me back to my boots and my saddle,
Yodelay hee, yodelay hee, yodeloooooo!
Sam Stowe

"If you hear a Southerner say, 'Hey, y'all, watch this!',
move away from him immediately. They're usually
the last words he'll ever utter..."
-- from "Southbound," a primer for our Northern friends
contemplating a move to the promised land.
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, jeliko
> writes:

>Do not underestimate the fringe elements of any society. Want to guess what
>would have happened in the UK if it was occupied by the Germans. Just look
>at the Vichy French and other governments which were set up by fringe
>element collaborators, they were more efficient in extreminating Jews than
>the Hungarian fringe elements. Do not assume superioroty on part of any
>nation, that is how the Nazia started, it does not lead to
>a tolarant society.

The point is that the fringe elements remained exactly that in Britain. Had
they had any deep popular support, they could have easily taken over at the
point France surrendered and Britain stood
alone against the Nazis.

>
>
>>
>>>
>>>There is nothing to excuse anyone for racial hatred or discrimination, but
>>>lets not get sanctimoneous about the general problem of antisemitism and
>>>blame only one country or a particular population in toto. Our family has
>>>saved two Jews during the turmoil of Hungary, one by hiding, one by post
>>>facto adoption and changes in the birth and marriage certificates. Both
>>>people survived the war. How many Jews did you save? Please do not use the
>>>general US participation in WW II as an answer.
>>
>>How many did you save personally? What makes you think what an earlier
>>generation of your "family" did is somehow transitive to you? Judging from
>your
>>response, it isn't. Next, I suppose, you or one
>>of your ilk will trot out the equally worthless "Some of my best friends
>>are..." argument.
>>
>
>I am very proud of those memebrs of my family who under life threat stood up
>for their
>fellow Hungarians. Your diatribe will never change that. Your accusation
>toward a whole nation based on acts of a few is exactly what resulted in
>antisemitism in Hungary. You would have fit in well with the generalizing
>attitudes you have expressed. I personally have not saved anyone at that
>time because I was too young, however I am equally proud of saving a large
>group of people including Jews in 1956. Who my friends are is my business.

It takes a nation to kill a nation. I have never claimed that all Hungarians
were anti-semites or cooperated with the Nazis in implementing the Final
Solution. But there were plenty who did, enough
to get the job pretty much done everywhere but in Budapest before the Russians
arrived. How interesting that your "few" who committed these terrible acts were
in high government office, the army and
the police. I am glad your family acted as they did. In doing so, they upheld
the finest traditions of the Hungarian nation. You ought to be proud of them
and your own role in 1956. But that doesn't
excuse those who collaborated with the Nazis. They were more than a few and
they were empowered by the many who, while never actively collaborating, never
had the guts to lift a finger to save fellow
Hungarians like your family members did.

>
>
>>
>>You're trying to pimp for a world view which segregated out large numbers of
>>people and murdered them en masse, a world view which still has some great
>>degree of currency in Hungary.
>
>Whenever you and up on the short side of facts, you always switch to
>personal insults, it is not unexpected.

I assume you meant "end up." I will warn you that ad hominem will simply serve
to endear you to me after a while. Please feel free, therefore, to indulge it
to shore up your own pitiful side of the
argument. All I ask is that you make some attempt at wit when using it rather
than the plodding earnest outrage you're currently affecting.

>
>(although as I
>>have pointed out before and you have conveniently overlooked, it is most
>>decidely not the view shared by the overwhelming majority of Hungarians)
>
>It is nice if you would follow the above sentence instead of accusing a
>nation in toto of acts committed by a very small fraction of them.

I haven't accused the whole nation in toto. But I'm not willing to countenance
a pack of lies either, as you apparently are.

>
>>The
>>first step in re-empowering this evil is by
>>denying the historical record, which is what you and your soul mates are
>trying
>>to do. You're better off sticking with the long-haired barbarian portion of
>>Hungarian history.
>
>Ah, Sam change the names of races or people and you could be goosestepping
>with your
>sentiments. By the way to deny the historical record one has to be familiar
>somewhat with the history, which in regard to Hungary does not seem to be
>your strongpoint.

Now you're whistling past the graveyard, Jeliko. I don't know that I ought to
accuse you of outright ignorance of modern Hungarian history as much as
outright indifference to those facts and an
unwillingness to address them honestly. This may be why in your latest posts on
this thread, you seem to have swung more toward admitting that postwar
Hungarian governments were somewhat less than
lilly-white in their treatment of Jews.
Sam Stowe



"As Bob is my witless..."
-- Angela Pickles, "Rugrats"
+ - Re: numerus clausus in the U.S. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "E.S. Balogh"
> writes:

>At 08:29 PM 3/27/97 +0100, Miklos wrote:
>>Sam Stowe wrote:
>
>>> You are implying that Hungary followed some kind of lead from the U.S. >in
>> erecting numerus causus. This is specious as far as the historical >record
>> goes.
>>>
>>Please help me, Sam! Are you trying to say that the people of the
>>U.S.A. are, were above such ideas as numerus clausus?
>
>        No, I don't think that is what Sam meant. Simply put, Denes's idea
>that the Hungarian parliament of 1920 simply copied an Ivy League practice
>is ridiculous.
>        ESB

Yes, that's what I meant. Eva, do you think I need to start saying what I mean
or can I keep beating around the bush like I do now?
Sam Stowe

"As Bob is my witless..."
-- Angela Pickles, "Rugrats"

AGYKONTROLL ALLAT AUTO AZSIA BUDAPEST CODER DOSZ FELVIDEK FILM FILOZOFIA FORUM GURU HANG HIPHOP HIRDETES HIRMONDO HIXDVD HUDOM HUNGARY JATEK KEP KONYHA KONYV KORNYESZ KUKKER KULTURA LINUX MAGELLAN MAHAL MOBIL MOKA MOZAIK NARANCS NARANCS1 NY NYELV OTTHON OTTHONKA PARA RANDI REJTVENY SCM SPORT SZABAD SZALON TANC TIPP TUDOMANY UK UTAZAS UTLEVEL VITA WEBMESTER WINDOWS