Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 894
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-01-24
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Eva D's Ideals - was Galbraight and Soros (mind)  105 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Three Words for Sam Stowe (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: The Compromise of 1867 (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: The Compromise of 1867 (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: [Homo]Sexuality and Politics (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: I am wrong and you are right (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
7 Civil Wars and Tribal Squabbles (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
8 FW: Re: [Homo]Sexuality and Politics (mind)  55 sor     (cikkei)
9 FW: RE: Re: FW: mail delivery error (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
10 Fwd: Destruction of River Danube. Prof. Liptak's answer (mind)  188 sor     (cikkei)
11 Fwd: Destruction of River Danube. Prof. Liptak's answer (mind)  189 sor     (cikkei)
12 HL-Action: Collective Human Rights (mind)  151 sor     (cikkei)
13 HAL: Magyar Istentisztelet Washingtonban (fwd) (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
14 Nepszabadsag (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Eva D's Ideals - was Galbraight and Soros (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi Eva:


Backtracking time .... You complained, (I say this, because I read it as
such) that private ownership is a minority in capitalism. I asked a
question, that being a definition of private ownership.  To which you
replied - "the type that can employ ... etc".

        Based on your definition of above, I gave you another point of view -
grant it lacking absolute stats, but hoping that you'll stop for a second
at least to consider, that life really is not as black and white as you
so like to state.  You then proceed, by attacking private owners by
several derogatory statements.  In this post, you continue to do so.  I
am confused.  Are you, or are you not, advocating that Private Ownership
be not a minority?


What you have managed to impart with me thus far are;

-your definition of private ownership has drastically changed through
this post

-that you advocate private ownership, but show next to zero respect for
that entity

-you advocate private ownership but know precious little at all about
private ownership

-you show no qualms, about upbraiding private owners; as evidenced by
your outrageous assumptions of their beings

-you're statistically driven

-you highly object to others' point of view especially if not fitting L&M
ideals

-when asked straight out, to create, make it work rather than complain
 ... well?


For about a year (that I've been around), you have sang the same old
songs.  I asked you, to give us all an exact, blueprint of your ideals.
You decline - and ... suggest that I have a motive in asking.  I do not.
Really.  I simply would like to be exactly clear with your ideals - since
you continually dump on any/all existing ones, while advocating M&L.
After all, since you obviously portray yourself to know it all; you ought
not be ashamed to share it all.  It would make us all very happy I am
sure, to a) understand exactly where you're coming from b) see your?
ideals actually work.  Failing that, we'd likely have some great and
funny discussions if not verbal wars in the process.  Now what is that
title you picked for yourself anyways .... for a start?


You said:

>Hey, we are not living (yet) in a democratic socialist society, at

>the moment I have enough problems to pay my phonebill without

>dialling Canada!  For the same reason I don't do much "surfing",

>so I'd be greatful if you dig out the stuff, you wanted to prove your

>point...

[...]

If I felt like spending the $50. to satisfy your need for "accurate
Stats", (has there ever been such an animal)? rest assured, I'd have done
it already, rather than suggesting you to do so.  The best that I can
offer you, after a quick search is, go to:

<center>www.statcan.ca/documents/English/Products/Historical/etrend.htm.

</center>There, you should find enough to satisfy your distrusting
nature, but I warn you, that it is by no means in total detail.  To get
more accurate and specific stats, I am told requires a search, and that
costs money.  Government cutbacks, you know?  There is the off chance
though, that Joe might be able to jump in and help; he must have some
Stats in the library?  Sorry, I simply do not have the time to track all
this down for you.

Regards,

Aniko.

PS - FYI - The Liberals are in power in Canada - not the Conservatives.

 - I have heard little if any complaints regarding poor working
conditions ... we do have astringent labour laws, and strong Unions

-  No, I was not referring to just profs or senior lecturers ... In fact,
as some *isolated* examples; a group of laid off miners are thriving very
well, by offering their consulting services internationally (in their
late 40's, some late 50's) ; yet another, have re-opened, under a joint
ownership of 10, an abandoned gold mine; ex power corp employees
embarking on consulting internationally; bankrupt software company's five
employees, staring their own nominated and won export award; part time
university students, running thriving businesses on the side; ex
fishermen, building ships and thriving; crystal products, Canadian being
sold internationally,  - just from a teeny weeny province of Canada ...
of course, I could continue ....

- Hungarian content:  GWU Hungary!! (sorry gang .... best I could dream
up).
+ - Re: Three Words for Sam Stowe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>
>Not really, Sam.  I was surprised that you didn't refute my comment that
one
>of your responses was anti-democratic.  As for your unsolicited
"critique",
>I can tell you that I share most of your sentiments.  What I don't care
for
>is the political paralysis that seems to accompany that particular
analysis.
>It's too myopic for my liking.
>
>Because you didn't refute my comment I'm thinking that you don't know
what I
>mean by "anti-democratic".  The next time you espouse anti-democratic
ideas
>I'll explain why I think it's anti-democratic.  The wait won't be too
long.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>

I didn't refute your comment because I don't think your definition of
anti-democratic is a very practical one. Besides, at this point I don't
really care. And don't expect me to be waiting with bated breath for your
riposte. I'm sure it'll be the usual feel-good nostrum designed to show us
all what exquisite political sensibilities you have. Christ -- you don't
even know who the hell your friends are.
Sam Stowe

"Those who serve the revolution
plow the sea..."
-- Simon Bolivar
+ - Re: The Compromise of 1867 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

S.Stowe wrote:

>Jelacic faced off against the Hungarian army at Pakozd, thirty or forty
>miles outside Budapest.

Here is an interesting question for you, Mr.Stowe. Jelacic was supposed to
organize and lead the uprising *south Serbs* against the Hungarian oppressors
(a la Sam Stowe). Maybe you can tell us what was he doing "thirty or forty
miles outside Budapest" (actually Pest-Buda, because Buda and Pest were two
different cities at that time) where no *south serb* was living. Maybe the
best solution for the problem of national minorities to occupy the capital
city of the majority? Isn't it possible that he had sligthly different goals
than to achieve the right of the *south serb* minority?

Another interesting question, why they faced off at Pakozd and not at Zagreb?
Isn't it possible that there was no major Hungarian army to face with. Maybe
Jelacic just walked in Hungary, just to face off against a rushly established
army outside Pest-Buda. How come that the poor *south serbs* had a more
battle-ready army than the supposedly oppressor 'magyars'? Maybe part of
Jelacic's army was indeed regular and/or was organized and prepared well
ahead for the task of crushing the hungarian 'rebellion' (with the active
help of the kaiser)? Can we call this the uprising of *south serbs*?

J.Zs
+ - Re: The Compromise of 1867 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.Balogh wrote:

>by Hungarians. Therefore there was no "nationality issue" to exploit. The
>court, by and large, accepted the Hungarian demands for a representative
>government.

So if Kossuth had presented those demands during the fall of 1847 just before
the turmoil all over Europe (spring of 1848), then the court, by and large,
would have accepted them? And with cooler head they would have worked out the
differences. 'Hogy ez miert nem jutott Kossuth eszebe!'

>Admittedly, Vienna was somewhat under the gun and most likely
>once it regained its bearing it would have demanded certain changes in the
>April Laws.

Maybe it is worthwhile to mention what this 'somewhat under the gun' ment.
In fact, there was a revolution in Vienna when Kossuth presented the
demands and 'His Majesty' was slightly worried about his life.
Maybe you can tell us why 'His Majesty' and his court had problem to
deal with his very own peole and failed to give similar rights to
his own country if he and his court agreed, by and large, to grant
them to Hungary?

J.Zs
+ - Re: [Homo]Sexuality and Politics (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 on Jan 23 10:54:38 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #893:

>At 09:52 PM 1/22/97 -0500, Ferenc Novak wrote:
>
 on Tue Jan 21 07:34:21 EST 1997 in HUNGARY
>>#891:
>>
>>>Hungarian content:  Does anyone think that our great Hungarian nationalist
>>>and stud muffin, Istvan Lippai, would be a good time in bed?  How about
the
>>>kitchen table?  Food for thought, eh?
>>
>>Joe, could you please keep your twisted fantasies out of here?  Thanks.
>>
>>Ferenc
>
>*My* twisted fantasies?  Oh, come on!  Where the hell were you when Mr.
>Lippai was dishing out *his* fantasies?  Or, did you not notice that he
>called many of the regular contributors to this list: 1)garbage, 2)communist
>3)anti-Hungarian, 4)anti-American?
>

There is a difference between the two.  But I dislike both.

>Can I conclude that your silence meant that you agreed with his general
>thrust?

No, you can't.

>Joe (I used to be Snow White .... but I drifted) Szalai
>
>P.S.  You're probably the wrong person to ask, but I'll ask anyway.  Why are
>so many people who hold right-wing political views so upset by anything that
>has to do with sex or sexuality?

As you say, I am the wrong person to ask.  So why do you?

> Did you all experience bad toilet training
>when you were young?  Where does your guilt, fear, shame, and disgust come
>from
>?

What is this about "you all"?  Speaking for me personally, I have no feelings
of guilt, fear or shame or hatred, for that matter.  I just find
homosexuality disgusting.  Please don't take it personally.  I believe we
should still be able to maintain a civilized discourse on other, more
important topics.

Can't we just practice "don't ask, don't tell" as in the (US) army?

Ferenc
+ - Re: I am wrong and you are right (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I have read the note signed by "kadargyorgy", and concluded from it
that (1) the author has an uneasy feeling (2) he would prefer debates
between people who agree rather than disagree.  I think this is an
excellent idea.  I wholeheartedly agree with the concept, and I'd love
to hear more about it.  The only difficulty I see is that it runs counter
to the famous dictum attributed to Miksch, also known as Miksch's Law:
"If a string has one end, it has another end".

-----
Gabor Fencsik

+ - Civil Wars and Tribal Squabbles (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

S.J. Magyarodi on the events of 1848-49:

> First of all, Mr. Fencsik, I do not care, if it was a civil war, war of
> independence, or a war of freedom. Today it is totally irrelevant. What
> I object to is the one-sided use of numbers.

Whether you care or not is up to you, but saying you don't care does
not make the issue "totally irrelevant".  I think it is important to
figure out whether the events of 1848-49 were a civil war or not.  The
way one answers this question will color one's view of what has happened
since, and what is happening now.  I will not argue the question itself
-- I leave that to Mr Hidas if he is willing -- but I will try to
explain why I think the question is relevant.

Your example of the Nagyenyed massacre of 1849, with its 700 Hungarian
victims, is a case in point.  How you look on that event is very much a
function of whether you see it as part of a civil war -- meaning citizens
of Hungary were killing other citizens of Hungary -- or part of something
else.

Think of a present-day southerner contemplating the destruction of Atlanta
or the sacking of Richmond by Sherman's troops during the Civil War in
the U.S.  (The Confederate troops did their share of destruction there,
but we'll lay that aside for the moment.)  In our southerner's eyes
these were terrible atrocities perpetrated by a vengeful army upon a
defenseless population.  But because the descendants of northerners and
southerners look upon those long-ago events as part of a civil war,
i.e., a struggle of brother against brother over issues that are dead
and gone, our southerner can sublimate his sense of having been wronged
into other things, such as sports rivalries and New Yorker jokes.  The
tribal rage and the cry for vengeance are gone.  The awareness and pain
of past historical injustices are still there, but they do not cripple
or blind people any more.  Why?  Because the narrative passed down to us
describes these events as a civil war, i.e., a war of brother against
brother.  It was sharp and bloody, but one fine day it was over --
"with malice toward none, with charity for all".  Both sides know, both
sides remember, but the wounds are healed.  The dead are mourned, and
the living take care of the living.  A pretty reasonable program for
Hungary and its neighbors, don't you think?

-----
Gabor Fencsik

+ - FW: Re: [Homo]Sexuality and Politics (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hey! someebody used the term "civilized discourse", for a change. Please
do not lynch him ( nor me for this remark ).
Miklos

 on Jan 23 10:54:38 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #893:

>At 09:52 PM 1/22/97 -0500, Ferenc Novak wrote:
>
 on Tue Jan 21 07:34:21 EST 1997 in HUNGARY
>>#891:
>>
>>>Hungarian content:  Does anyone think that our great Hungarian nationalist
>>>and stud muffin, Istvan Lippai, would be a good time in bed?  How about
the
>>>kitchen table?  Food for thought, eh?
>>
>>Joe, could you please keep your twisted fantasies out of here?  Thanks.
>>
>>Ferenc
>
>*My* twisted fantasies?  Oh, come on!  Where the hell were you when Mr.
>Lippai was dishing out *his* fantasies?  Or, did you not notice that he
>called many of the regular contributors to this list: 1)garbage, 2)communist
>3)anti-Hungarian, 4)anti-American?
>

There is a difference between the two.  But I dislike both.

>Can I conclude that your silence meant that you agreed with his general
>thrust?

No, you can't.

>Joe (I used to be Snow White .... but I drifted) Szalai
>
>P.S.  You're probably the wrong person to ask, but I'll ask anyway.  Why are
>so many people who hold right-wing political views so upset by anything that
>has to do with sex or sexuality?

As you say, I am the wrong person to ask.  So why do you?

> Did you all experience bad toilet training
>when you were young?  Where does your guilt, fear, shame, and disgust come
>from
>?

What is this about "you all"?  Speaking for me personally, I have no feelings
of guilt, fear or shame or hatred, for that matter.  I just find
homosexuality disgusting.  Please don't take it personally.  I believe we
should still be able to maintain a civilized discourse on other, more
important topics.

Can't we just practice "don't ask, don't tell" as in the (US) army?

Ferenc
+ - FW: RE: Re: FW: mail delivery error (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Aye, Aye, Sir
:-):-):-)!

We guys from Szeged are the best, naturally :-)!

On Thu, 23 Jan 1997  wrote:

> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 22:00 +0100
> From: 
> To: "Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq" >
> Subject: RE: Re: FW: mail delivery error
>
> Aye, aye Sir!:-)
> Lajos MONOKI of Szeged had put my nose on the e, I tried it, and
> the computer is no longer a darned anti-what-you have. Aye, aye,
> AHA. :-) Had believed spelling was no longer an issue ( you probably
> haven4t heard about the spelling "reform":-( in Germany, if not, you
> didn4t miss a thing...).
> Thanks anyway! And keep the LIST!:-)
> Miklos
>  Well, this show (albeit not very verbosely ;-() that you mispelled
> LISTSERV  - computers being dumb usually understand  commands that
> are  accurate to every character (which may explain why "superhypeway"
> Gore replaced "potatoe" Quayle ;-)). Try it with the correct LISTSERV@
> address!
>
> On Thu, 23 Jan 1997  wrote:
> > 050 RCPT TO:>
>                        ^
> > 250 >... recipient OK.
> > 050 DATA
> > 354 Start mail input.  End with <crlf>.<crlf>
> > 554-Mail not delivered to some or all recipients:
> > 554 'listserv...' is too long to be a VM userid.
>
>  AHA!
>
>

 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!

 Visit 'Boycott Internet Spam' <http://www.vix.com/spam/>;
+ - Fwd: Destruction of River Danube. Prof. Liptak's answer (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Colleagues,

The attached is an example of how much a caring single person (Istvan Lip=
pai)
can do. Please do your part too within your own sphere.

Best regards: Bela Liptak
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	 (Istv=E1n Lippai)
To:	
CC:	, 
Date: 97-01-24 01:30:07 EST

Dear Water Resources List Members,

Since Prof. Liptak's name was unfavorably mentioned in the six (6) page=20
rambling accusations by Mr. Liska and Mr. Petrovic, paid representatives =
of=20
Slovak construction firm engaged in the destruction of River Danube, I to=
ok=20
the liberty of asking Prof. Liptak to prepare response that I could place=
 on=20
the list.

Some of you may know Prof. Liptak's  work in the field of environmental=20
engineering.  I have checked the University of Colorado, Boulder, library=
 and

found four books written or edited by Prof. Liptak.

1.  Environmental engineers' handbook, a three volume handbook relating t=
o=20
water, air, and land pollution.
2.  Instrument engineers' handbook : process control
3.  Instrumentation in the processing industries
4.  Municipal waste disposal in the 1990s

I am proud to call this man, I have never met, my fellow American and fel=
low=20
Hungarian.  Curiously, one of Prof. Liptak's grandfather is of  Slovak
origin.=20
 His efforts on behalf of River Danube environment are based on his
scientific=20
concerns for the ecological disaster in the making and his concern for th=
e=20
future of Hungarians and Slovaks of the region.

We need to weigh the findings of Prof. Liptak, an internationally recogni=
zed=20
environmental engineer, and the testimony of people who live near the
project,=20
against the six (6) page rambling from two former high ranking Slovak =20
communist officials, who hope to make a lot of money representing the=20
construction company.

Those of you who are interested in scientific evidence of the ecological=20
disaster, may contact Prof. Liptak at .  I found him
helpful=20
and informative.  Hope you forgive Prof. Liptak and I for the occasional=20
strong language.  We both grew up under communist rule between 1945-1956,=
 and

had it with communist propaganda and garbage.

Istvan Lippai, P.E.


Following is Prof. Liptak's partial response.

To: 		Istv=E1n Lippai
Subject: 	REPLY TO THE SPOKESMAN OF THE SLOVAK CONSTRUCTION FIRM MIROSLAV=
=20
LISKA

Miroslav Liska is a paid employee of the construction firm which built th=
e=20
environmental nightmare Called: Gabcikovo.  His job is to whitewash and
defend=20
this profitable white elephant of Stalinist gigantomania.  He is no
scientist.

He is paid by the Slovak Construction firm to "spin" and confuse the publ=
ic.
=20
If you have read the words of this experienced spin-artist, you noticed, =
that

they contained to data only claims and propaganda.  He worked for and wit=
h
the=20
Communists followed the old Communist until 1989 and is still using the o=
ld=20
communist method of "talking you to death" by writing some 8 single space=
d=20
pages of lies and half-truths.  He also followed Goebbels' Law: "the bigg=
er=20
the lie, the more will believe it".

I apologize for knowing no other way to refute this collection of falseho=
ods,

his intellectual insult, but by going through them. In good consciousness=
, I=20
can not leave all this garbage unanswered.

Before starting to number his paragraphs, Liska writes some introductory=20
paragraphs.  Like any experienced propagandist, the bigger the lie, the m=
ore=20
often he repeats it.  He says: "The Danube's wetlands.. . are surely save=
d by

Gabcikovo!"

 Saved he says! Saved BY GABCIKOVO, he dares to say, when the Szigetkoz.
 This=20
region of a thousand islands, is completely dry today, there are NO ISLAN=
DS=20
LEFT AT ALL in the Szigetkoz! The water is gone.  The fish are gone and t=
he=20
birds that used to feed on them are gone. An so is the vegetation.  Flora=
 and

fauna, hundreds of species, some existing only in the Szigetkoz, are also=
=20
gone.  The liskas have saved this wetland region right out of existence!

What there is in the Szigetkoz is drinking water TRUCKED IN to the villag=
es=20
and townships, where the wells have dried out.  "Saved" by the liskas!

Miroslav Liska dares to talk like if he cared about the unique ecosystem =
of=20
the "inland delta" of the ancient Pannon sea, (where the Danube from the =
Alps

enters the Carpathian basin). He is like the nazi, who blames the Jews fo=
r=20
Auswitz.  Reading his text, it is hard to believe, that it was his very=20
construction firm, which destroyed the Szigetkoz, this oldest wetland reg=
ion=20
of Europe, an ecosystem that survived since the last Ice Age.

Liska, this well paid liar, is crying crocodile tears over the yearly 10-=
20=20
centimeters drop in groundwater levels, which erosion caused prior to the=
=20
Gabcikovo construction, when his "mathematically well modeled concrete=20
masterpiece" has resulted in a drop of 300 centimeters(!)  in the groundw=
ater

levels in the northern Szigetkoz.

This figure of 300 centimeters (9-10 feet) is not a "Liska number," it is=
 the

finding of the WWF study, which supports the "Memorial" submitted to the=20
International Court of Justice by the nine largest international
environmental=20
NGOs.  Anybody who doubts its validity should visit the Szigetkoz and jus=
t=20
look for the thousand islands.  There are none!  If the WWF is "too=20
environmentally oriented" for your taste, read The studies and books of J=
uraj

Holcik, Ivan Bastl, Milan Ertl or Marian Vranovsky in Slovakia, or review=
 the

data of Janos Toth, Mihaly Erdelyi, Gyorgy Toth and Pal Liebe in Hungary.=
 =20
Those who are interested in facts should study them.  An other document, =
that

should be studied is the "Memorial" prepared by 39 experts for the nine N=
GOs,

which the International Court of Justice accepted for the Danube lawsuit.

Fortunately we live in a world, where lies and propaganda motivated by gr=
eed=20
and packaged by the methods of the communists can be corrected and where=20
courts exist to deliver justice.  It is late tonight, and I have a hard d=
ay=20
ahead of me tomorrow, so I will stop here, but I will continue my respons=
e=20
tomorrow, when I will deal with every lie and distortion in Miroslav Lisk=
a's=20
numbered paragraphs.
+ - Fwd: Destruction of River Danube. Prof. Liptak's answer (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Colleagues,

The attached is an example of how much a caring single person (Istvan Lip=
pai)
can do. Please do your part too within your own sphere.

Best regards: Bela Liptak
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:    (Istv=E1n Lippai)
To:     
CC:     , 
Date: 97-01-24 01:30:07 EST

Dear Water Resources List Members,

Since Prof. Liptak's name was unfavorably mentioned in the six (6) page=20
rambling accusations by Mr. Liska and Mr. Petrovic, paid representatives =
of=20
Slovak construction firm engaged in the destruction of River Danube, I to=
ok=20
the liberty of asking Prof. Liptak to prepare response that I could place=
 on=20
the list.

Some of you may know Prof. Liptak's  work in the field of environmental=20
engineering.  I have checked the University of Colorado, Boulder, library=
 and

found four books written or edited by Prof. Liptak.

1.  Environmental engineers' handbook, a three volume handbook relating t=
o=20
water, air, and land pollution.
2.  Instrument engineers' handbook : process control
3.  Instrumentation in the processing industries
4.  Municipal waste disposal in the 1990s

I am proud to call this man, I have never met, my fellow American and fel=
low=20
Hungarian.  Curiously, one of Prof. Liptak's grandfather is of  Slovak
origin.=20
 His efforts on behalf of River Danube environment are based on his
scientific=20
concerns for the ecological disaster in the making and his concern for th=
e=20
future of Hungarians and Slovaks of the region.

We need to weigh the findings of Prof. Liptak, an internationally recogni=
zed=20
environmental engineer, and the testimony of people who live near the
project,=20
against the six (6) page rambling from two former high ranking Slovak =20
communist officials, who hope to make a lot of money representing the=20
construction company.

Those of you who are interested in scientific evidence of the ecological=20
disaster, may contact Prof. Liptak at .  I found him
helpful=20
and informative.  Hope you forgive Prof. Liptak and I for the occasional=20
strong language.  We both grew up under communist rule between 1945-1956,=
 and

had it with communist propaganda and garbage.

Istvan Lippai, P.E.


Following is Prof. Liptak's partial response.

To:             Istv=E1n Lippai
Subject:        REPLY TO THE SPOKESMAN OF THE SLOVAK CONSTRUCTION FIRM MIROSLAV
=
=20
LISKA

Miroslav Liska is a paid employee of the construction firm which built th=
e=20
environmental nightmare Called: Gabcikovo.  His job is to whitewash and
defend=20
this profitable white elephant of Stalinist gigantomania.  He is no
scientist.

He is paid by the Slovak Construction firm to "spin" and confuse the publ=
ic.
=20
If you have read the words of this experienced spin-artist, you noticed, =
that

they contained to data only claims and propaganda.  He worked for and wit=
h
the=20
Communists followed the old Communist until 1989 and is still using the o=
ld=20
communist method of "talking you to death" by writing some 8 single space=
d=20
pages of lies and half-truths.  He also followed Goebbels' Law: "the bigg=
er=20
the lie, the more will believe it".

I apologize for knowing no other way to refute this collection of falseho=
ods,

his intellectual insult, but by going through them. In good consciousness=
, I=20
can not leave all this garbage unanswered.

Before starting to number his paragraphs, Liska writes some introductory=20
paragraphs.  Like any experienced propagandist, the bigger the lie, the m=
ore=20
often he repeats it.  He says: "The Danube's wetlands.. . are surely save=
d by

Gabcikovo!"

 Saved he says! Saved BY GABCIKOVO, he dares to say, when the Szigetkoz.
 This=20
region of a thousand islands, is completely dry today, there are NO ISLAN=
DS=20
LEFT AT ALL in the Szigetkoz! The water is gone.  The fish are gone and t=
he=20
birds that used to feed on them are gone. An so is the vegetation.  Flora=
 and

fauna, hundreds of species, some existing only in the Szigetkoz, are also=
=20
gone.  The liskas have saved this wetland region right out of existence!

What there is in the Szigetkoz is drinking water TRUCKED IN to the villag=
es=20
and townships, where the wells have dried out.  "Saved" by the liskas!

Miroslav Liska dares to talk like if he cared about the unique ecosystem =
of=20
the "inland delta" of the ancient Pannon sea, (where the Danube from the =
Alps

enters the Carpathian basin). He is like the nazi, who blames the Jews fo=
r=20
Auswitz.  Reading his text, it is hard to believe, that it was his very=20
construction firm, which destroyed the Szigetkoz, this oldest wetland reg=
ion=20
of Europe, an ecosystem that survived since the last Ice Age.

Liska, this well paid liar, is crying crocodile tears over the yearly 10-=
20=20
centimeters drop in groundwater levels, which erosion caused prior to the=
=20
Gabcikovo construction, when his "mathematically well modeled concrete=20
masterpiece" has resulted in a drop of 300 centimeters(!)  in the groundw=
ater

levels in the northern Szigetkoz.

This figure of 300 centimeters (9-10 feet) is not a "Liska number," it is=
 the

finding of the WWF study, which supports the "Memorial" submitted to the=20
International Court of Justice by the nine largest international
environmental=20
NGOs.  Anybody who doubts its validity should visit the Szigetkoz and jus=
t=20
look for the thousand islands.  There are none!  If the WWF is "too=20
environmentally oriented" for your taste, read The studies and books of J=
uraj

Holcik, Ivan Bastl, Milan Ertl or Marian Vranovsky in Slovakia, or review=
 the

data of Janos Toth, Mihaly Erdelyi, Gyorgy Toth and Pal Liebe in Hungary.=
 =20
Those who are interested in facts should study them.  An other document, =
that

should be studied is the "Memorial" prepared by 39 experts for the nine N=
GOs,

which the International Court of Justice accepted for the Danube lawsuit.

Fortunately we live in a world, where lies and propaganda motivated by gr=
eed=20
and packaged by the methods of the communists can be corrected and where=20
courts exist to deliver justice.  It is late tonight, and I have a hard d=
ay=20
ahead of me tomorrow, so I will stop here, but I will continue my respons=
e=20
tomorrow, when I will deal with every lie and distortion in Miroslav Lisk=
a's=20
numbered paragraphs.
+ - HL-Action: Collective Human Rights (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
 normal

Background:
  Our thousands of letters and nearly a dozen newspaper advertisements
have reached President Clinton and we stand a good chance that
American support for COLLECTIVE HUMAN RIGHTS will become an integral
part of American foreign policy. The people who took the trouble to
write deserve our thanks. The continuation of this effort is the
prime task of the Hungarian Lobby.

What to do:
  Please write President Clinton and ask him to make the collective
human rights an integral part of American foreign policy. Please send
them out every day(!)  Please, distribute them to all your
acquaintances who care about human rights.
  Feel free to use the attached sample letters: letter #1 is
applicable for Hungarian-Americans, letter #2 for non-American
citizens.
  Address:
Clinton:     (e-mail)   

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Hungarian-Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave
Washington, D.C.
(e-mail: )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President,

Every culture is sacred, the destruction of a single one, mutilates
the heritage of the entire human race. International standards are
needed to protect all of them. We, Americans must accept the
historical responsibility to lead in the development of such
international standards, which will protect the collective human
rights of all indigenous minority groups.

We must lead, as we pass on the bridge to the 21st Century, just as we
did a few decades ago, when we decided to protect the individual human
rights of all. Collective rights flow from those of the individual,
because such basic rights as the use of one's language can only be
practiced in groups. There is no other choice. There are no
melting-pots in the Screbenicas of the World. The alternative to
cultural autonomy are  mass graves and cultural genocides.

Mr. President: In this century, the United States was forced three
times, to intervene in Europe. The only way to permanently eliminate
the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the future, is
to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be done by
uniformly satisfying the aspitations of all indigenous minority
groups. If, as the president of the United States, you would make the
defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy, a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for our G.I.s to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a member of the 1.58 million community of Hungarian-Americans, I
ask you to make the cultural autonomy of all indigenous national
minorities of Central Europe, an integral part of your foreign policy.


Respectfully yours,
Your name, address and title. If this letter is signed by many, please
use the attached form to list the names and addresses.

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave
Washington, D.C.
(e-mail: )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President,

Every culture is sacred, the destruction of a single one, mutilates
the heritage of the entire human race. International standards are
needed to protect all of them. The United States have historical
responsibility to get in the lead in the development of such
international standards, which will protect the collective human
rights of all indigenous minority groups.

The United States must lead, if we want a stable and peaceful
Europe. Just as America lead the efforts a few decades ago, when
Americans developed the international standards to protect individual
human rights of all. Collective rights flow from those of the
individual, because such basic rights as the use of one's language
can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice. There are
no melting-pots in the Screbenicas of the World. The alternative to
cultural autonomy are the mass graves and cultural cleansing.

Mr. President: In this century, the United States was forced three
times, to intervene in Europe. The only way to permanently eliminate
the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the future, is
to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be done by
uniformly satisfying the aspitations of all indigenous minority
groups. If, as the next president of the United States, you would make
the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy, a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for our G.I.s  getting entangled in future European
conflicts.

As a human right activist, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of
all indigenous national minorities of Central Europe, an integral part
of your foreign policy.


Respectfully yours
Your name, address and title. If this letter is signed by many, please
use the attached form to list the names and addresses.

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
+ - HAL: Magyar Istentisztelet Washingtonban (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

MAGYAR NYELVU ISTENTISZTELET WASHINGTONBAN

1997, Januar 26-an, Vasarnap delelott 11 orai kezdettel tartjuk

A Wesley Theological Seminary kapolnajaban
4500 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
Washington, D.C.

>>>  Az Istentisztelettel egy idoben vasarnapi iskolai foglalkozas lesz
gyermekeink szamara.  Kerjuk a szuloket, hogy a gyermekek 3/4 11 orara
legyenek a templom elocsarnokaban.
+ - Nepszabadsag (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In the Jan. 24, 97 issue of Nepszabadsag ( Nepszabadsag Online :
www.nepszabadsag.hu and behind ) there is an article of Krajczar
Gyula : "Tervgazdalkodas" utterly suitable for a debate about the
upside down discussion of capitalism, privatisation etc in the
old country. Sorry, I didn4t check the English version. Puzzling,
however, is that the article was published in Nepszabadsag and not
in uj MAGYARORSZAG...( by the way, did anybody manage to find "uj
MAGYARORSZAG on the Net? Or do they just ignore it? MAGYAR NEMZET
is pretty usable now )
Miklos Hoffmann

AGYKONTROLL ALLAT AUTO AZSIA BUDAPEST CODER DOSZ FELVIDEK FILM FILOZOFIA FORUM GURU HANG HIPHOP HIRDETES HIRMONDO HIXDVD HUDOM HUNGARY JATEK KEP KONYHA KONYV KORNYESZ KUKKER KULTURA LINUX MAGELLAN MAHAL MOBIL MOKA MOZAIK NARANCS NARANCS1 NY NYELV OTTHON OTTHONKA PARA RANDI REJTVENY SCM SPORT SZABAD SZALON TANC TIPP TUDOMANY UK UTAZAS UTLEVEL VITA WEBMESTER WINDOWS