Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 923
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-02-23
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Dear list members, (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Propagandized "history" (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: FW: Pensions (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Parliamentary committees (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: No Subject (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Canada's Stand on NATO (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: FW: Re: Balogh hivatkozasat a 'fatherland'-re en (mind)  77 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: No Subject (mind)  52 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Parliamentary committees (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: FW: Pensions (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: FW: Rejected posting to HUNGARY@GWUVM.GWU.EDU (mind)  77 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Balogh hivatkozasat a 'fatherland'-re en is (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: It is in the papers .. (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: magyar stilisztika es helyesiras (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Canada's Stand on NATO (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Canada's Stand on NATO (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
17 FW: Re: FW: Re: Balogh hivatkozasat a 'fatherland'-re e (mind)  99 sor     (cikkei)
18 FW: Re: Canada's Stand on NATO (mind)  82 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Canada's Stand on NATO (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
20 Funar is out (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Canada's Stand on NATO (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Dear list members, (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I have been regularly following Hungary list since the start of this year. I ha
ve seen none of the anti-Hungarian sentiments complained of by Mr Lippai in tha
t time. Whist I do not necessarily agree with all the posts and also find some 
of them a bit cryptic and hard to follow I certainly enjoy the give and take th
at goes on and the airing of different views. 
I previously followed soc.culture.magyar and found it peopled by posts denigrat
ing Hungarian culture and Hungarian origins. Obviously Mr Lippai is at home in 
that company.


Regards
Dénes
+ - Re: Propagandized "history" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:48 PM 2/14/97 -0500, Jeliko wrote:
>>I am reading a book which received the "1995 outstanding regional history"
>award called
>>the "The Immigrant Coccoon" subtitled "Central Europeans in the Cambrideg
>Ohio Coalfields." by Lorie Porter a Professor of History at Muskingum
>College in New Concord Ohio. The flyleaf also says that she is a graduate of
>Notre Dame College, Boston College and the University of New Mexico where
>she received a PhD in Medieval History.

Sorry for the late reaction but I would be interested to know, who or what
organization gave Lori Porter her award? Based on what criteria?

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: FW: Pensions (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:52 PM 2/16/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

>What the heck means " "hazai" nyugdijlehetoesegeit"? "Hazai"
>wasn4t translated, either.
>Also, I miss "Romaniaban" for "in Romania"....

Well, the translation was not mot-a-mot. However, the meaning is correct.
"Hazai nyugdijlehetosegeit" in the original meant literally  "possibilities
for pensions in their home country", which I assumed was reflected by
"pension rights".  I took the liberty to add "in Romania" to the text, to
make it clearer.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Parliamentary committees (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:11 PM 2/17/97 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        Although I am not a student of the American congress I have never
>heard of people called upon a congressional committee not to show up! Or to
>refuse to answer questions. However, I have a vague recollections that if
>someone refuses to show up or to answer questions he/she is in contempt of
>congress. And that is punishable by a jail sentence.

As far as I know, there is an exception to this in the US: if someone is
invoking his/her Fifth Amendments right to avoid self incrimination, and
based on that refuses to cooperate. This happened with Oliver North, just
yesterday with Hubbel and Wang. The Congress than has the option of giving
them immunity, which eliminates their right to be silent but makes them
immune from prosecution based on anything they say (Oliver North did get
this immunity and avoided being convicted).

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: No Subject (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In a message dated 97-02-22 22:25:41 EST,  (Denes BOGSANYI)
writes:

<< Dear list members,
 I have been regularly following Hungary list since the start of this year. I
have seen none of the anti-Hungarian sentiments complained of by Mr Lippai in
that time. Whist I do not necessarily agree with all the posts and also find
some of them a bit cryptic and hard to follow I certainly enjoy the give and
take that goes on and the airing of different views. 
 I previously followed soc.culture.magyar and found it peopled by posts
denigrating Hungarian culture and Hungarian origins. Obviously Mr Lippai is
at home in that company.
  
 Regards
 Dénes  >>

Denes,

You are 100% correct! -- This is Lippai's 2nd time around this list. 
The first time he "burst" onto the sceen I tought that he was an "agent
provokator".
Soon it became apparent though that he was not smart or clever enough to fill
that bill. We had a little "fun" with him and now we just blow him off. They
used to
have some real good discussions on soc.culture.magyar, but lately all you
see is Lippai as the self appointed moderator of scm. He thanks some
for their contributions written both in Hungarian and English, chastises
others and
all in all acts like as if  he was "holding court". It is both aggravating
and funny at the same time.

Regards,
Marina
+ - Re: Canada's Stand on NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Kedves Johanne, you wrote:

>I tend to think NATO membership would provide Hungary more security against
>possible future Russian expansionism (which, sooner or later, is a good
>possiblity, I think we would all agree), than she would have any other way.

I agree with you completly. And I think we (the Hungarians) would need the
NATO membership not only for national security, but for compatibility also.
The most important goal of Hungary is the EC membership (in my opinion), the
majority of the EC countries are NATO member as well (with the exception of
France, Austria and Sweden), so the security issues of the EC are the same
as those of the NATO. I don't think it is possible to be neutral and EC
member in longer term. Beside who would take such a 'neutrality' seriously?
Not the Russians for sure.
So in other words, I consider the NATO membership as an important (and
necessary) step toward the EC.

>So, I believe it would be a Good Thing from that point of view. On the other
>hand, what I have seen of Madeleine Albright's comments suggests that the
>U.S. is saying, "Oh, we'll limit the size of the forces in each country to
>such-and-such a level," and so on and so forth. Which looks to me like the
>U.S. is acting like the 800-pound gorilla again. Which begs the question of
>whether Hungary and the other countries of Central Europe will in fact be
>better off being under the thumb of the larger (and richer) countries of the
>West, or whether they wouldn't in fact be better off in some form of
>Danubian Confederation, arranging their affairs more in light of their
>common interests.

I think it is almost irrelevant how big force would actually stationed in
East Europe. What is important the guarantee that comes with the membership.
I.e any agression against the smallest NATO member is considered agression
against the whole NATO. So for example in theory, war against the Nederlands
means war against the US. Like the three musketeers, "One for everyone and
everyone for one".(:-))

As far as Spain is concerned, I cannot provide any statistics. I heard,
however, that Spain is one of the most dinamically growing economy of the
EC and she and other countries like Portugal, Greece receive millions
of dollars yearly from the richer EC members. As far as I know the main
opposition against the acceptance of East-Europian countries in the EC
comes from the poor members, as they don't want to share these benifits.

J.Zs
+ - Re: FW: Re: Balogh hivatkozasat a 'fatherland'-re en (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

My head is definitely with you but my heart is otherwise. I bought a book "Baro
n Joseph Eötvös: A Literary Biography" by Steven Bela Vardy East European Monog
raphs No. CCXIV  Distributed by Columbia University Press 1987.
I have not been able to get my hands on any of Boron Eötvös' books, they should
 be very interesting and very timely, even though written a century or more ago
. 
I am somewhat concerned that it appears that Hungary is told that if they go do
wn the road of unfettered capitalism at any cost they will be allowed into NATO
 and more importantly into the European Community sometime in the future. When 
it comes to the crunch Russia, Slovakia, Romania etc., object and neither the E
uropean countries nor the USA care enough to stand up and say this is what we h
ave promised therefore we deliver.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Eva S. Balogh[SMTP:]
Sent:  Sunday, 23 February 1997 9:57
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: FW: Re: Balogh hivatkozasat a 'fatherland'-re en iseszrevettem,  
            de....

At 10:12 AM 2/22/97 -0400, Johanne wrote:

>I can remember distinctly when I was a kid, reading that the Russians
>pointed out very pointedly that their expression for the homeland was
>*motherland*, vice the "warlike" Germans' use of the term *fatherland.* It
>would appear that the question is whether you are translating a Hungarian
>word or using an expression that might be used in Hungary, in which case
>*motherland* would appear to be more correct if that is the commonly used
>Hungarian expression.

        Thank you for this bit of information and for your whole letter on
the question of motherland versus fatherland. Most likely you are right. The
problem is that I actually never use the word "motherland" in English. It
sounds foreign to me and not quite right. However, the word "fatherland" fit
in very well with my sarcastic tone at the time. Because, indeed, I was
sarcastic. I am getting  terribly fed up with the overheated nationalism I
hear day in and day out on the Internet. I find it out of step with the
times. I am also convinced that a highly nationalistic government (a la Mr.
Torgyan's Smallholders) if it managed to get into power at the next
elections would be a calamity and would do terrible damage to Hungary.

        I have been a great supporter of European union from the very moment
I learned something about it--after I left Hungary, of course. The very
vision of a United Europe had absolutely thrilled me from the very first day
of my being aware of it and my only sorrow was that most likely Hungary and
her neighbors would never be a part of it. Now there is a possibility that
Hungary will be part of the European Union and I will be lucky enough to
witness it. It thrills me. At the same time I hear all this asinine (sorry
the expression but there is no other word to describe them) comments full of
nationalitistic drivel (again, no other word exists for it) and I get very,
very angry. It reminds me of Avvakum of Russia or the ayatollahs of Iran.
Those of you who are not familiar with Russian history: Avvakum was a priest
who in reaction to the westernization attempts of Peter the Great began a
religious movement of dissent. I see a fairly strong resemblance between
Avvakum and the ayatollahs, on the one hand, and the outdated and revived
nationalism paraded around on the lists of the Internet, on the other.
Nineteenth-century poets are dragged out of their graves with moving lines
(the most famous being: "itt elned es halnod kell," meaning you must live
here and must die here) and turned against those who left the country during
the dictatorship. I must say that I was delighted to see that someone
reminded the super-patriots that there is another famous line in Hungarian
literature: "haza ott van, ahol jog is van..." (the homeland is where there
is the rule of law).

        It is late and I have to get up very early tomorrow, so I must
close. However, I am most willing to discuss the matter further next week
when I have a bit more time.

        Best, Eva

P.S. I see that Johanne also wrote a letter on the NATO expansion. Later I
will be responding to that one as well.
+ - Re: No Subject (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

It is also sad that a person like him can turn some readers and contributors co
mpletely off and thereby lower the tone of a newsgroup.
I have read some of his contributions and they are, to put it mildly, pathetic.
 He butts in on a thread and contributors become too engrossed in responding to
 him to follow the thread through.


Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Marina E. Pflieger[SMTP:]
Sent:  Sunday, 23 February 1997 15:35
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: No Subject

<<File: ATT00001.txt>>
n a message dated 97-02-22 22:25:41 EST,  (Denes BOGSANYI)
writes:

<< Dear list members,
 I have been regularly following Hungary list since the start of this year. I
have seen none of the anti-Hungarian sentiments complained of by Mr Lippai in
that time. Whist I do not necessarily agree with all the posts and also find
some of them a bit cryptic and hard to follow I certainly enjoy the give and
take that goes on and the airing of different views. 
 I previously followed soc.culture.magyar and found it peopled by posts
denigrating Hungarian culture and Hungarian origins. Obviously Mr Lippai is
at home in that company.
  
 Regards
 Dénes  >>

Denes,

You are 100% correct! -- This is Lippai's 2nd time around this list. 
The first time he "burst" onto the sceen I tought that he was an "agent
provokator".
Soon it became apparent though that he was not smart or clever enough to fill
that bill. We had a little "fun" with him and now we just blow him off. They
used to
have some real good discussions on soc.culture.magyar, but lately all you
see is Lippai as the self appointed moderator of scm. He thanks some
for their contributions written both in Hungarian and English, chastises
others and
all in all acts like as if  he was "holding court". It is both aggravating
and funny at the same time.

Regards,
Marina
+ - Re: Parliamentary committees (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I am writing from Australia where I have lived for the last 47 years. In the Au
stralian federal and state political system, originally taken from the English 
Westminister system, parliamentary investigative committees did not play a prom
inent part. In the last 20 or so years they have assumed greater prominence. Ju
st the same, being called before such a committee is considered a very serious 
matter and refusal to answer is considered contempt of Parliament punishable as
 parliament, constituting itself as a court, sees fit, There have been several 
notable instances over the years where journalists have refused to reveal their
 sources, usually leaks within the public service or from parliamentarians and/
or their staffs, and they have been jailed over this matter. This is still cons
idered a delicate subject in so far as journalists insist that their sources ar
e private and the government of the day wants to root out leaks which would emb
arrass it.
Regards
Dénes

Thanks 



----------
From:  S or G Farkas[SMTP:]
Sent:  Sunday, 23 February 1997 14:10
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: Parliamentary committees

At 08:11 PM 2/17/97 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        Although I am not a student of the American congress I have never
>heard of people called upon a congressional committee not to show up! Or to
>refuse to answer questions. However, I have a vague recollections that if
>someone refuses to show up or to answer questions he/she is in contempt of
>congress. And that is punishable by a jail sentence.

As far as I know, there is an exception to this in the US: if someone is
invoking his/her Fifth Amendments right to avoid self incrimination, and
based on that refuses to cooperate. This happened with Oliver North, just
yesterday with Hubbel and Wang. The Congress than has the option of giving
them immunity, which eliminates their right to be silent but makes them
immune from prosecution based on anything they say (Oliver North did get
this immunity and avoided being convicted).

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: FW: Pensions (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This is very interesting. Romania has proclaimed that there is one state, one n
ation and there are NO ethnic minorities in Romania. This was used as the excus
e to cut out all Hungarian cultural movements such as universities and Hungaria
n names for towns. Now when it comes to paying Romanian citizens their pensions
 suddenly ethnicity is considered as a vital factor.

Regards
Dénes

Thanks 



----------
From:  S or G Farkas[SMTP:]
Sent:  Sunday, 23 February 1997 14:10
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: FW: Pensions

At 10:52 PM 2/16/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

>What the heck means " "hazai" nyugdijlehetoesegeit"? "Hazai"
>wasn4t translated, either.
>Also, I miss "Romaniaban" for "in Romania"....

Well, the translation was not mot-a-mot. However, the meaning is correct.
"Hazai nyugdijlehetosegeit" in the original meant literally  "possibilities
for pensions in their home country", which I assumed was reflected by
"pension rights".  I took the liberty to add "in Romania" to the text, to
make it clearer.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: FW: Rejected posting to HUNGARY@GWUVM.GWU.EDU (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

""
> wrote:

>The struggle with new technologies...and I had believed,
>I was one of the heralds of them...Eventually, you grow
>humble...
>Miklos


><At 10:17 PM 2/18/97 +0100, Miklos wrote, quoting Lippai and Dominus:
>>
>>>Kedves Dominus,
>>>     Balogh hivatkozasat a 'fatherland'-re en is eszrevettem.  A nemetek
>>>hasznaljak a 'fatherland'-t hazajukkal kapcsolatban.
>>
>>Wenn schon, Vaterland, bitte.
>>>
>>>> Eva, Eva, Eva,...
>>>> In Hungarian it's motherland. -- Anyaorszag, anyafold.
>>
>>???
>>
>>Just for the record : patrista,

> I meant <<patriota>>

><patriotizmus are part of th Hungarian
>>vocabulary. Pro patria...is part of the history. Patriots should
>>know that.

><       Oh, Miklos, you don't understand. This is part of dumping on Eva
><Balogh who is not patriotic enough. And one of the signs of her lack of
><patriotism is that in English she was talking about "fatherland" and not
><"motherland." Because Dominus whose English is on the most primitive level
><tells us that "motherland" is a perfectly OK English word but I, naughty,
><naughty girl, who calls every Hungarian a Nazi, deliberately used the word
><"fatherland," just to drive it home again that Hungary is a fascist country.
><And it goes on and on and on!! Never mind that no one ever uses the word
><"motherland" in English. Yes, Dominus is right: the word is in the
><dictionary but in capital letters it also says: FATHERLAND. And that in
><Webster's dictionary means: Look there, you dummy!

>Maybe, I was always a bit nai:ve.

>Poor Eva, if she is not patriotic enough, is she at least
>matriotic? That would fit to motherland. I have problems with
>parentland ( how wonderfully evenhanded! it doesn4t fit in the
>age of womenlib, however. ( PLEASE DESREGARD. I DON4T DARE TO OPEN UP A
>NEW FRONT! )) ( szueloefoeld ), as well.

>Well, balancing parantheses was a matter of luck in maths in the
>gimi.
>I better stop, before we go neurotic. Or did we leave the
>point of no return?

>Take care!
>Miklos



Oh Lorrrdie me!
Everybody is paranoid in this group?
Miklos (it's not you, but almost everybody else),
you are almost right!  I tried: "Anyaorszagom szep hatara /
Meglatlak-e valahara"..., es sehogysem stimmel!
You know, the Hungarian language is like a Scotish "R" , you
have to roll it in your mouth, you must taste it, to smell
it before you outhale it; it's so unlike with (yes, with)
any other languages.
Also Erdely , vagy a Dunantul lehet Szulofoldem, de
Anyaorszagom nem. Az elcsatolt teruleteken gyakran mondtuk,
hogy "az Anyaorszagiak", ami sohasem jelentette a
Felvidekieket, vagy Bacskaiakat. (My apologies to George,
but one cannot sound out the nuances in any other language,
but only on the original).
Best regards:
Dominus v.
+ - Re: Balogh hivatkozasat a 'fatherland'-re en is (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 on Sat Feb 22 19:00:03 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #922:

> I am getting  terribly fed up with the overheated nationalism I
>hear day in and day out on the Internet. I find it out of step with the
>times.

OK, Eva, you are upset.  But please remember, others may also be upset (even,
using your own words, "terribly fed up" with) you and your views.
 Nevertheless, one's state of mind does not excuse using imprecise or
incorrect terminology.

Ferenc
+ - Re: It is in the papers .. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

My understanding of the problem is that individual entrepreneurs were
compelled to pay Social Security taxes (not to be confused with the U.S.A.
version!). This means the cost of government provided health insurance,
pension, disability insurance, etc. All this was considered      to be free
until now, and as soon as the government asked the entrepreneurs to
contribute their share, they had no choice but to fold. The question is (in
my mind): What is the solution to this? After all the government's only
resources for this kind of socialism are taxes. If the entrepreneurs are not
taxed for this, where is the money to come from? Are these enterprises
viable if they cannot pay their taxes? If their taxes are subsidized by the
government, who should pay for it?

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: magyar stilisztika es helyesiras (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

After reading all the complaints about the lack of Hungarian accents in our
list, I took the book Internet Unleashed, published by Sam.net and looked it
up. There is a whole chapter about Mail Standards, created by so called RFCs
(request for comment). Anyone can have one, when accepted, it becomes a de
facto standard. This chapter talks about MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail
Extension). Supposedly "it addresses a giant limitation in Internet message
standards. generally messages are assumed to be low-count ASCII text (ASCII
values 0 trough 127). This situation makes it tough to send information such
as ... some non-English character sets in an Internet message."  "MIME
hasn't completely arrived by most practical standards.... it's not yet
universal....The PINE mail program... and Eudora mail program... among
others, offere some support for MIME. New Content-Types and subtypes are
being registered all the time. (the book is Copyright 1995!).

I hope this helps.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Canada's Stand on NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:14 PM 2/21/97 -0500, Joe Szalai quotes the Globe and Mail.

>Prime Minister Jean Chretien keeps adding to the list of countries he
>wants to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization even as Canada cuts
>back its own involvement in the military alliance.

I hope I am not offending any Canadians with the following story. I spent
the last week in Quebec, skiing, and I listened to CBC radio every day.  I
was troubled by the reaction of Prime Minister Chretien, who had only words
of praise for the deceased Deng Xiao Ping of China, the one who ordered the
massacre of the students. (I am not sure what the official American reaction
was, but if it was similar to this, I am also troubled by it).

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Canada's Stand on NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:37 PM 2/23/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 02:14 PM 2/21/97 -0500, Joe Szalai quotes the Globe and Mail.
>
>>Prime Minister Jean Chretien keeps adding to the list of countries he
>>wants to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization even as Canada cuts
>>back its own involvement in the military alliance.
>
>I hope I am not offending any Canadians with the following story. I spent
>the last week in Quebec, skiing, and I listened to CBC radio every day.  I
>was troubled by the reaction of Prime Minister Chretien, who had only words
>of praise for the deceased Deng Xiao Ping of China, the one who ordered the
>massacre of the students. (I am not sure what the official American reaction
>was, but if it was similar to this, I am also troubled by it).
>
>Gabor D. Farkas
>
>Gabor:I sincerly hope you enjoyed your skiing vacation inQuebec.It is a
beautiful place,with friendly people,and very good restaurant.
It is too bad,that the politicians,again trying to put a vedge between
Quebec,and the rest of Canada.
As for Mr.Chretien,sometimes again in diplomacy there are nice words,and
different feelings.
Now how about Cuba?
Be nice,as you allways are.Regards:Andy.
+ - FW: Re: FW: Re: Balogh hivatkozasat a 'fatherland'-re e (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi, Eva and Everybody!

At 18:27 18/02/97 -0500, Eva wrote:
>At 10:17 PM 2/18/97 +0100, Miklos wrote, quoting Lippai and Dominus:
>>
>>>Kedves Dominus,
>>>     Balogh hivatkozasat a 'fatherland'-re en is eszrevettem.  A nemetek
>>>hasznaljak a 'fatherland'-t hazajukkal kapcsolatban.
>>
>>Wenn schon, Vaterland, bitte.
>>>
>>>> Eva, Eva, Eva,...
>>>> In Hungarian it's motherland. -- Anyaorszag, anyafold.
>>
>>???
>>
>>Just for the record : patrista, patriotizmus are part of th Hungarian
>>vocabulary. Pro patria...is part of the history. Patriots should
>>know that.
>
>       Oh, Miklos, you don't understand. This is part of dumping on Eva
>Balogh who is not patriotic enough. And one of the signs of her lack of
>patriotism is that in English she was talking about "fatherland" and not
>"motherland." Because Dominus whose English is on the most primitive level
>tells us that "motherland" is a perfectly OK English word but I, naughty,
>naughty girl, who calls every Hungarian a Nazi, deliberately used the word
>"fatherland," just to drive it home again that Hungary is a fascist country.
>And it goes on and on and on!! Never mind that no one ever uses the word
>"motherland" in English. Yes, Dominus is right: the word is in the
>dictionary but in capital letters it also says: FATHERLAND. And that in
>Webster's dictionary means: Look there, you dummy!

>        Eva Balogh

Johanne L. Tournier wrote :

<The original exchange sort of passed me by, since I don't spend a lot of
<time translating the Hungarian messages (takes too long). However, Eva,
<without overreacting (and without making any comments about the mental
<stability of any of the various contributors to this discussion) - in
<various languages, as I am sure you are aware, the homeland is referred to
<as *fatherland* or *motherland.* (But, this expression is not generally used
<in the U.S. or Canada. I am not sure about Britain. Do the Brits refer to a
<fatherland or a motherland? I don't think so.)

<I can remember distinctly when I was a kid, reading that the Russians
<pointed out very pointedly that their expression for the homeland was
<*motherland*, vice the "warlike" Germans' use of the term *fatherland.* It
<would appear that the question is whether you are translating a Hungarian
<word or using an expression that might be used in Hungary, in which case
<*motherland* would appear to be more correct if that is the commonly used
<Hungarian expression.

<Now, commentators who write about Russia and wish to give as accurate a
<flavour of the meaning of the Russian word, translate it as *motherland.* In
<the case we are dealing with, I don't think the criterion should be what is
<more *common* in English, but rather what gives a more accurate flavour of
<the word in the original language.

<By the way, Miklos' comment was made above that the word *patrista*,
<*patriotismus* and the expression *pro patria* are known in Hungarian.
<However, those are terms which were imported from Latin, as they were into
<English. The result is that even though the literal meaning in Latin carries
<a connotation of *Father*, that has pretty well been lost in English. The
<word Patriot is defined in my Webster's New World Dictionary as "a person
<who loves and loyally or zealously supports his own country." No mention of
<*Fatherland* there. And, for what it's worth, my Webster's lists
<*fatherland* as "a person's native land or, sometimes, the land of his
<ancestors." Then for *motherland,* we have "1. the country of one's birth.
<2. the country of one's ancestors."  There is no indication there that one
<expression is preferred over the other - and there are no capital letters
<used for either term in my Webster's!

<Tisztelettel,

Johanne


Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

Hallo Janka,

I am not sure, Eva is around. Else, she would be much more "diligent".

I was pretty much much aware of the fact that there was again an attempt
to provoke Eva by wise-cracking comments. But again without the proper
information or knowledge or education or what you have behind. So, I did a
bit of intentional wise-cracking about patriotism, patriota, etc...( "pat-
rista" was a tipping error, I meant "patriota" ), since would be patriots
really should be familiar with that.

BTW, "imports" from Latin became part of the language - at least of the
educated one. Latin was "at home" in Hungary for many centuries ( and
official language until as late as 1848 ).

The mostly used Hungarian term is "haza" ( no gender ). I
remind again, that szueloefoeld ( = "parent land" ) is very evenhanded ).
Thus, the whole issue was not
+ - FW: Re: Canada's Stand on NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:21 22/02/97 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote, in response to Hugh:
<snip Hugh's comment>
>I think it would be prudent to go slowly and cautiously with NATO expansion.
>On the one hand, it can be argued that it's not important that Russia is
>opposed to expansion.  After all, what can they do about it?  They couldn't
>even defeat a small, ill-equiped,

I am not at all sure about "ill-equipped". Making war in the Ukraina, or in
Hungary is so much easier. It4s like making war in Sasketchawan compared to
the Rockies.

<rebel army in Chechna.  On the other hand,
>if Russia feels threatened and humiliated, similar to what Germany felt
>after World War I, then the consequences may not be pleasant at all.

So does Russia feel, with, or without the "expansion" of the NATO. And there-
fore it is necessary to have that damm there.

Johanne L. Tournier wrote :
<I tend to think NATO membership would provide Hungary more security against
<possible future Russian expansionism (which, sooner or later, is a good
<possiblity, I think we would all agree), than she would have any other way.
<So, I believe it would be a Good Thing from that point of view. On the other
<hand, what I have seen of Madeleine Albright's comments suggests that the
<U.S. is saying, "Oh, we'll limit the size of the forces in each country to
<such-and-such a level," and so on and so forth. Which looks to me like the
<U.S. is acting like the 800-pound gorilla again. Which begs the question of
<whether Hungary and the other countries of Central Europe will in fact be
<better off being under the thumb of the larger (and richer) countries of the
<West, or whether they wouldn't in fact be better off in some form of
<Danubian Confederation, arranging their affairs more in light of their
<common interests.

For heaven4s sake! Beware! That would be something like the Yugoslav Federal
Republik. Genocides, again and again ( it has not begun with Srebrenica ).

a)Alliances, like the NATO definitely need leadership. Exerting that leadership
  - for   obvious reasons - does not happen to be role of Louxemburg, but,
rather, that of the US. That doesn4t necessarily mean, they act like an 800
  pound gorilla ( what can happen, time to time, of course... )
b)those countries being in NATO is the only way to garantee STABILITY in the
 area. Even the Greek<>Turkish conflict is under control. When - for alliance
  reasons -, however, the US is REQUESTING Turkey4s acceptance in the EU, albei
t
  the human right situation there, they are indeed acting like the 800 pound
  gentleman.
  Going slowly there would make the area to a powder barrel...

<BTW, when they join the European Union, will they not tend to lose the
<advantage that they now have of being able to produce goods at lower cost
<than the countries of the West? Isn't that the prime incentive they can now
<offer to businesses which are consideration setting up plants there?

It wouldn4t help them a lot, as long as protectionist EU ( or Canada, or US )
is setting up quota and other barrieres against their exports. This is the case
now. Once they are within the fence, it is much easier for them to sell the
goods they produced at low cost. Whether, and how fast they loose the advantage
they have now, depends on how fast wages and salaries, taxation, social cost
rise. Within the Union, labor costs differ quite a lot. ( This is the problem -
among other ones - e. g. Germany has now. )

<was the experience of Spain in that regard?

There was an almost explosion-like take-off of the economy...

<Was joining the European Union a positive move for Spain, or has she suffered?
<I have not traveled to Spain since she joined the Union, but I know she and
<Greece were probably the most backward countries of Western Europe,

Well, "Western" was a good joke.

<and I have <heard that now there is virtually no difference (at least in the
<cost to travel there) between Spain and the other European countries. I am
<wondering if Spain's economic development has also reached the level of the
<other Western European countries, and Hungary's experience if she joins can be
<projected to parallel Spain's.

Would be great, if it could work that fast...I4d like to see it, but I don4t
quite dare to hope. Certainly not with the present political elite.

Best regards
Miklos
+ - Re: Canada's Stand on NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:13 PM 2/23/97 -0500, Andy Kozma wrote:

>>Gabor:I sincerly hope you enjoyed your skiing vacation inQuebec.It is a
>beautiful place,with friendly people,and very good restaurant.

I agree. I enjoyed the friendliness of everybody in Val Morin, the food in
the 4 fork restaurant at Far Hills.  People in Montreal seemed less friendly
when I approached them in English.

>As for Mr.Chretien,sometimes again in diplomacy there are nice words,and
>different feelings.

That is why I am an engineer and not a diplomat.

>Now how about Cuba?

Well, he (Castro) is not on my list of favorites and Chretien's nice words
about him are..., well I am staying nice, as you suggested..

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Funar is out (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Good news. According to the AFP G. Funar was ousted from his position of
leader of the Romanian National Unity Party. He is still the Mayor of
Kolozsvar/Cluj, hopefully not longer than until the next elections.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Canada's Stand on NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Szia Gabor!

Nice to hear from ya again!  It's been awhile!

At 05:37 PM 23/02/97 -0500, you wrote:
>I hope I am not offending any Canadians with the following story. I spent
>the last week in Quebec, skiing, and I listened to CBC radio every day.  I
>was troubled by the reaction of Prime Minister Chretien, who had only words
>of praise for the deceased Deng Xiao Ping of China, the one who ordered the
>massacre of the students. (I am not sure what the official American reaction
>was, but if it was similar to this, I am also troubled by it).
>Gabor D. Farkas

No offence taken by *this* Canadian at least.  I heard it also and share
your sentiment, but sad to admit, brushed it off as a typical "diplomatic"
statement with a reason unbeknownst to us yet.  You must keep in mind, that
Canadians at large are considered by others in the world as being "mild and
complacent".  "Tis my opinion that the the governing bodies (regardless of
party) have become to expect nothing more.  I don't expect this to become
an issue based on the above.  In fact I've been watching the local papers
for reaction, but not a word so far.  I am about to hit the Globe.  Maybe
they picked up on it.

Btw:  Glad to hear you're enjoying our ski resorts.  Where were you skiing?
 And, in case you've never heard, Marble in Newfoundland is an awesome
place!  I highly recommend it!

Best regards,
Aniko

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