Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 723
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-07-10
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind)  74 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind)  168 sor     (cikkei)
4 Impex company? (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
5 Slovak Language law in practice (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Orszagh and nemzet (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Slovak Language law in practice (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Nemzeti (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
9 A question about pagan heritage (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Orsza1gh (mind)  49 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Linguistic questions (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Orsza1gh (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind)  76 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Orsza1gh (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Orszagh and nemzet (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: A question about pagan heritage (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
17 Faculty Club Etiguette (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
18 HELP with GOSPELS TEXT (fwd) (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

It seems depressing. The main discussion seems to
be about
individual correspondents and not about what they
have to say.  See you later in the year, I suppose
most of you at least seem to enjoy this bickering...

+ - Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Stowewrite writes:

>And you know nothing of Benke's circumstances either, beyond what he has
>told you, yet you choose to defend him without bothering to ascertain the
>veracity of his claims. While I don't suppose this qualifies you as
>intolerant, it does expose you as a pedant of the "politically correct"
>sort. By the way, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like for you to take a
>look at. And some waterfront property in Florida.

i hate to disabuse you but i do happen to *know* mr. benke. his physical
being, that is. his actual, material, tangible, physical being. which is
more than you can say. i have also *talked* with mr. benke, in actual,
physical vocal chord to vocal chord contact. which too, i believe, is more
than you can say.

and having been thus stimulated in sight and hearing, and being of a fairly
rational mindset, i think i can safely say that i am able to form a
reasonably informed opnion as to mr. benke's circumstances. which, oh once
again, is more than you can say.

my political correctness or lack thereof has nothing to do with the subject
discussed. therefore i consider any mentions thereof inconsequential.

whether i am a pedant or not is at this point impossible for you to judge,
as you have seen but one post from me. this one is but the second.

i hope you continue to be happy with your property.


>Given Tibor Benke's exhaustive, nay Fabos-Beckerian, posts, I think we
>have reason to doubt the degree of his cognitive challenge.

no. that is faulty reasoning. you have reason to respect him for overcoming
them.

 We have other
>clues implicit in his posts, namely the fact that he's a pretty good
>speller and uses the language with facility, that might lead us to wonder
>just how hard he's having to concentrate to get his message out to the
>world.

there is no way for you to assess that.


Obviously, he's not autistic. Empathy is a wonderful quality in a
>human being, but when it is disconnected from one's faculty of critical
>scrutiny, it can lead one to swallow even the most transparent bogus
>bullshit claims. Or, as that great Canadian philosopher Alanis Morrisette
>says, "You live; you learn."

bullshit is as bullshit does, mr. stowe. i do not particularly subscribe to
the notion that the utterings of a pop singer are profound. or at least
very few popsingers. unfortunately, as for me ms. morisette is not among
them, we have no basis for discussions of philosophy.


>P.S.S. -- Can't sign your posts with your real name, EF? That marks you as
>a rank coward in my book.

there is nothing cowardly in choosing to sign a public post with a nym. i
am responsible for the nym i chose. this is the net, mr. stowe. you may as
well learn something of the medium in which you are to function:

there is no way you could prove the veracity of any name that i would
choose to sign. unless *i* choose to provide you with the information. and
i fail to conceive of a reason for you to undertake such a quest. though
were you to wish to do so, it would not be very difficult to find out who i
"really" am.

instead, trust me for who i chose be, mr. stowe. i am not playing games
with you.

regards
ef
+ - Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam Stowe wrote quoting E. Fischer:
>
>And you know nothing of Benke's circumstances either, beyond what he has
>told you, yet you choose to defend him without bothering to ascertain the
>veracity of his claims. While I don't suppose this qualifies you as
>intolerant, it does expose you as a pedant of the "politically correct"
>sort. By the way, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like for you to take a
>look at. And some waterfront property in Florida.

And at the end of his missive:

>>
>>P.S.S. -- Can't sign your posts with your real name, EF? That marks you as
>>a rank coward in my book.
>>

And people acuse _me_ of _ad Hominem_ attacs?

Actually E. Fischer and I have met in person on several occasions and she
knows quite a bit more of my circumstances than E. Balogh.  What is more, I
can assure you, the name is real.

>Given Tibor Benke's exhaustive, nay Fabos-Beckerian, posts, I think we
>have reason to doubt the degree of his cognitive challenge. We have other
>clues implicit in his posts, namely the fact that he's a pretty good
>speller and uses the language with facility, that might lead us to wonder
>just how hard he's having to concentrate to get his message out to the
>world. Obviously, he's not autistic. Empathy is a wonderful quality in a
>human being, but when it is disconnected from one's faculty of critical
>scrutiny, it can lead one to swallow even the most transparent bogus
>bullshit claims. Or, as that great Canadian philosopher Alanis Morrisette
>says, "You live; you learn."
>Sam Stowe

Please educate me, who is Fabos-Becker?

As for my abilities and disabilities,  it is a generalized misconception
that intelligence is some sort of unitary global phenomenon - which it is
not.  Another misconception is that human cognitive proccessing is more or
less the same.

It turns out, that cognitive processing is rather a complex affair and I
doubt that we will have a good understanding of it any time soon.  "A.D.D."
is just now being "recognized", possibly because some of the secondary
symptoms can be very straining to parents of victims and can be easily
supressed with drug therapy, notably, ritalin, giving the pharmacetical
industry a new market.  At any rate, the stochastic processes operating in
the public schools at present, happen to select against precisely those
characteristics by which A.D.D. is defined.

Basically, the problem would be trivial, if society quit confusing moral
concepts with scientific ones.  Or to put it another way,  A.D.D. is the
psychologized operationalization of what used to be called being 'bone
lazy', that is, the brain finds it has less need for external stimulation
and the person has less need for physical activity as well, when compared
to the average.  If we treated this variation rationally, we could using
established Skinnerian techniques, modify it sufficiently to get acceptable
behavior from the individual.  Instead my school life was made one living
hell, and I myself am suprised that I managed to retain a love of learning
dispite that.  You have James Fenimore Cooper, Mark Twain, Jules Verne,
Kipling, and the Author of _Egri Csillagok_, as well as Benedek Elek and
the Poets who tried to remedy the consequence of the atrocity committed on
the Hungarian people by the rulers who mercilessly stripped them of their
Pagan heritage, to thank for that.  My one shelter as a child was reading
these books, inspite of dislexia, over and over, because if I was quietly
reading, or seemed to be, I was left to be.

I managed to struggle through grade and high school and graduate, with a B-
average.  I enterd college, to find that the whole thing was basically a
fraud - these were the days when grading was by the bell curve and the
consequence of low grades was being sent to Vietnam.  Few people were
interested in knowledge for its own sake, and even most of those who were,
were really interested in intellectual one upmanship more than Truth or
Beauty. Scams for beating the System were rampant, and most teachers,
(tisztelet a kivetelnek) had your arrogant attitude.

There were two areas of shelter from this, an obscure corner of the English
Department, and the Anthropology department as a whole.  It was not
unexpected, that the sort of semi-liberal semi-conservative ideology
peculiar to Hungarians of my class background would change radically.  I
became an antiwar activist and discovered precisely how free the home of
the brave is.  As could have been predicted, my 2S (student) defferrment
was revoked and I was drafted.  My application for conscientious objector
status was refused, since I was not a member of a Quaker, Mennonite, or
Jehova's wittness church, but a graduate of highschool R.O.T.C.  I came to
British Columbia, where some Mennonite people helped me: provided me with
farm work and helped me obtain landed immigrant status.  Later I switched
to more lucrative factory work, and until 1975 I worked in turn in a pulp
mill, a glass factory and a building insulation factory, and was raising a
family.  I also became a rather devout Mennonite, and spent a lot of time
studying the Bible.  I  also continued to read anthropology as a hobby.  I
thought it an interesting irony that I fulfilled my parent's worst
nightmare, I was condemned to manual work for the rest of my life; it was
what all that pennmanship practice was supposed to prevent.

In 1975 I became extreemly ill and spent some ten days in the hospital and
several months at home.  When I returned to work, I was involved in  two
minor industrial accidents, and it was decided that while my disease did
not preclude gainful employment, dumping garbage from forklifts into
dumpsters and climbing on catwalks above furnaces were not the kind of work
I should do.  I was instead persuaded to seek retraining.  First, I thought
I could get an english degree and an elementary teacher's cetificate.  I
worked through the academic requirements in a year and a half, learning
quite a few interesting things - becoming aware of Jean Piaget's work, for
instance.  The practicum, however, destroyed me.  I was getting flashbacks
of my own elementary schooling, and I simply couldn't work with a full
class of children.  I resigned and spent several months with another
excacerbation(sp?) of my MS.  After that, I decided that I would go back
and study Anthropology and eventually teach grown ups.  Again I did o.k.
for a while but became ill several times and working under the strain of
having to make up defferments, and having to deal with the breakup of my
marriage, I suffered a nervous breakdown.  After I recoverd from that, for
a time, I did wolunteer work at an Adult Learning Centre, and when
computers looked like the coming thing, I went to the British Columbia
Institute of Technology to get something called a "Business Certificate in
Data Processing".  This too proved useless.  I managed the courses in
programming languages, HP Basic and PL/1, and even IBM 4004 Assembler. But
the accounting courses defeated me and when I innocently asked the
Marketing Teacher if there might be some ethical concerns with applying
Maslowe's Hiearchy of Needs to creating a market, I was simply laughed out
of class.  At any rate, I had another attack of M.S.  This was the fourth
since 1975, so I decided that with 10% steady unemployment in the province,
my participation in the labourforce was not neccessary and uplied to be
classified permanently disabled.  My application was rejected at first but
after changing doctors and filing an appeal, it was granted.  I then
returned to SFU and in three trimesters of taking one course at a time,
managed to earn my B.A. in sociology and anthropology.  What is more, it is
a real B.A., I have a general education equavalent to someone's with that
qualification in 1910: I actually read all the books I claim to have read,
s l o w l y, no skimming no looking at the first and last sentence of each
paragraph.  Thus my college education which started in 1964, ended in 1989.


While I was completing my degree, I happened to take a course in the
Sociology of Knowledge.  I was reading what I thought to be another
typically dense german sociology text,( it was _Ideology and Utopia_) when
a sensed a strange resonance.  It was as if some of my own intuitions had
been reflected to me.  I thought I should look up the biography of the
author, Karl Mannheim.  And when I did, I found out that he was Hungarian.
Since then I have been obsessed with the implications of the sociology of
knowledge, which entails reading a lot of books that are over my head and
taking note of the actual processes involve in the production,
reproduction, and distribution of knowledge in society.




>P.S. -- Anyone think to check the DMSR-IV to see what it has to say about
>cognitive disabilities, if anything?

Yeah, I'd be interested in that too.  Though I find the D.M.S.R. is not the
last word, thats why revisions must be published frequently.  Or am I
wrong?


In the Good Old Days, when education was unabashedly classist and elitist,
no one was allowed to specialize in a field until they had a grounding in
knowledge as a whole.  Elementary rhethoric, logic, philosophy, literature
were required.  There were no Ph.D.s who thought there was only one kind of
causation.  Maybe progress ain't all its cracked up to be?

"Don't speak too soon, for the wheel's still in spin,
And there is no tellin' who it is namin' "  RZ

Later,

Tibor Benke,

+ - Impex company? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I am needing information on company which now makes the
Velo solex motorized bicycle, and I think it is Impex
company in Hungary.
If they have email address or any other info I would
greatly appreciated.
thanks
carl steen
+ - Slovak Language law in practice (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I lived an interesting story in Bratislava. I went to a pub in the
center of the city, owned by a Magyar with ethnic Hungarian personal,
where I used in the past to try speaking Hungarian every time.

Usually, Magyars are glad when a non-Magyar is making the effort to
ask in Hungarian. I remember these folks only a month ago gladly
served me when I spoke Hungarian, although they probably discovered
I am not a Magyar. Now they said me to speak Slovak which I of course
did with no problems. A lady whom I asked if she speaks Magyar said
she don't. I remember her she does and she also had a Magyar accent.

I was really confused and did not understand what happened. It's only
later when thinking about, I understood. It's the language law. Should
these brave folks serve me when speaking Magyar, they might risk
trouble. They are so terrorised they prefer to deny their language.

Fear is back in Slovakia. I am upset and ashamed for causing these
people such an embarrassment. By the way, the law about new administrative
districts that is considered to be the first stop toward a majority
system and intended to allow Meciar to win the next elections has been
re-approved by the parliament, overriding the presidential veto.

Roman Kanala
+ - Re: Orszagh and nemzet (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear fellow-listmembers,

The recent discussion on the shades of difference in meaning between
"orszagos" and "nemzeti" has been very interesting.  One additional
question occured to me:  is there any tendency in Hungarian, as there
definitely is in American English, to lose almost entirely the distinction
between "nation" and "state" (what I assume the fundamental meaning of
"nemzet" and "orszag" are?).  I've always thought that US confusion on
questions of nationalism and politics is not made any easier by our
tendency to treat the two nouns as though they were synonyms.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

+ - Re: Slovak Language law in practice (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:30 AM 7/9/96 +0200, Roman Kanala wrote:


>I lived an interesting story in Bratislava. I went to a pub in the
>center of the city, owned by a Magyar with ethnic Hungarian personal,
>where I used in the past to try speaking Hungarian every time.
>
>Usually, Magyars are glad when a non-Magyar is making the effort to
>ask in Hungarian. I remember these folks only a month ago gladly
>served me when I spoke Hungarian, although they probably discovered
>I am not a Magyar. Now they said me to speak Slovak which I of course
>did with no problems. A lady whom I asked if she speaks Magyar said
>she don't. I remember her she does and she also had a Magyar accent.

>Fear is back in Slovakia. I am upset and ashamed for causing these
>people such an embarrassment. By the way, the law about new administrative
>districts that is considered to be the first stop toward a majority
>system and intended to allow Meciar to win the next elections has been
>re-approved by the parliament, overriding the presidential veto.
>

        Very sad to hear, especially shortly after the signing of the
treaty. I really don't know when East Europeans will learn that they must
grow up as nations, they must bury the hatchet and live together peacefully
if they want to belong to the common humanity of Europe.

        And talking about fear reminds me of a private correspondence I had
with a fellow interneter who lives in Hungary. He tried to explain to me how
terribly difficult it is to shed the fear which had been a part of their
lives before 1990. And he gave me an example. He lives close to the
Slovak-Hungarian border and because gasoline is cheaper in Slovakia, he
often crosses the border for a little sighseeing and also filling his tank.
Every time he crosses the border he still has a gripping feeling of fear
although the border guards are polite and not intrusive. And, as a sideline,
he said: the Hungarian border guards say hello and the Slovaks don't. So, we
are still at this stage.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Nemzeti (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:40 PM 7/8/96 -0500, Andras Kornai wrote:

>I&G Jalsovszky write:
>> 1. Why to mix private political opinion into linguistic questions?
>Because I didn't want to follow Orsza1gh and leave the reader without a sense
>of stylistic value. Like it or not, the term _nemzeti_ is at this point a
>highly political and emotionally charged term, and the current value is very
>different from what it was in e.g. "Nemzeti Dal".

        I think Andras is right in pointing out the meaning of "nemzet" and
"nemzeti" which in certain cases can mean more than just "nation." In fact,
the monolingual dictionary: *A magyar nyelv ertelmezo szotara* also gives
this additional meaning, mentioning its nationalistic overtones.

        Andras is talking about current politicized meaning but the word
"nemzeti" used in this sense goes back at least to 1919 when the opposition
to the Karolyi and Kun regime wanted to establish a "kereszteny es nemzeti"
regime. Horthy's army--made up of officers only--was called "Nemzeti
hadsereg" where the word meant more than nationwide. Unfortunately this
usage was revived after 1990 and indeed became a code word.

>
>> 2. The opposite of "nemzeti" may well be "nemzetkozi" (international), a key
>> term used on the left (in particular Ka1da1r's Hungarian Socialist Workers'
>> Party - see Orsza1gh, 2nd ed., p2142), to praise their comrades.
>Seems to me you'll have a hard time denying the term is politicized, if your
>first reaction is to note that an opposed term also carries a political value
>in Hungarian. As it happens, many politicians use _nemzeti_ primarily to
>distance themselves from 'international' which was indeed a communist
>buzzword. I disapprove of this usage for the same reason I disapproved of MDF
>using "Thy will be done" on an election poster: I don't find it appropriate to
>use noble sentiments, be they patriotism, religious sensibilities, the love of
>children, or whatever, in the pursuit of a rather mundane political goals.

        Let me add that there is such a word as "nemzetietlen," meaning
"nemzeti vagy nemzetinek velt erdekek irant kozombos v. ellenseges"
[indifferent or antagonistic toward the interests or assumed interests of
the nation.] And in this case, surely there is a meaning of "nemzeti" which
is the opposite of the above.

        Eva Balogh
+ - A question about pagan heritage (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:37 AM 7/9/96 -0700, Tibor Benke wrote:


>Instead my school life was made one living
>hell, and I myself am suprised that I managed to retain a love of learning
>dispite that.  You have James Fenimore Cooper, Mark Twain, Jules Verne,
>Kipling, and the Author of _Egri Csillagok_, as well as Benedek Elek and
>the Poets who tried to remedy the consequence of the atrocity committed on
>the Hungarian people by the rulers who mercilessly stripped them of their
>Pagan heritage, to thank for that.

        Would you please enlighten us what you mean exactly by the above.
But, please, briefly. Sam reminded you that Fabor-Beckerian
style--incredibly long postings--is not appreciated around here.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Orsza1gh (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

First, I want everybody know how much I enjoyed the discussion of
Laszlo Orszagh's dictionary. Here are a few questions and additional comments:

At 04:19 AM 7/5/96 -0500, Andras Kornai wrote:

>The Orsza1gh dictionaries are among
>the greatest bilingual dictionaries ever compiled, and by greatest I don't
>mean only size. Actually, the size is quite impressive, on the order of two
>hundred thousand words and phrases, considerably larger than the largest
>monolingual dictionary of Hungarian, the seven-volume "Magyar Nyelv
>E1rtelmezo3 Szo1ta1ra", which is a rather problematic work.

        Could you elaborate on this. Why is it a "rather problematic work."

>The magnitude of the achievement was widely recognized
>at the time, and Orsza1gh received the title "Commander of the British
>Empire", not too bad for some obscure Hungarian professor with a minimal
>command of the English language.

        Was his English really that minimal?

>Like most other comprehensive dictionaries, the "nagy Orsza1gh" is not
>intended for the beginner. As an example, consider the Hungarian adjective
>_huncut_. There are many English adjectives that come close, like 'naughty' or
>'mischievous', but none of these is really good when it comes to describing
>certain behavioral characteristics of preschoolers (as opposed to teenagers).
>In additions to these adjectives, Orsza1gh also offers 'little slyboots' which
>is just about perfect, except for its distinct 18th century ring. 'Little
>slyboots' might still work for Dickens, but it has no meaning for the average
>20th century speaker of British or American English.

        "Slyboots" is still listed in Webster's without the notation
"archaic," and, of course, it can be found in the original Oxford
Dictionary. So, I am not terribly surprised that Mr. Orszagh included the
word in his bilinagual dictionary without any further notation.

>I suspect this was just
>as true in the forties or fifties when Orsza1gh worked on the letter H as it
>is today, although he assumed a highly literate audience and perhaps such an
>assumption was more warranted for Hungarian students of English fifty years
>ago than it would be today, when most language learners study English with
>business, science, or technology in mind, literature be damned.

        The importance and pioneering character of Orszagh's work can be
highlighted by the following. In the 1920s, when my father was learning
English, there was no acceptable English textbook for Hungarian speakers. He
learned the language via German.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Linguistic questions (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:47 AM 7/5/96 GMT, Steve Scheer wrote:

>Laszlo Orszagh's dictitionaties contain many inaccuracies.
>There are also many archaic usages there. Occasionally I don't
>know where on earth he came up with some equivalences . . .
>It's time for new English/Hungarian and Hungarian/English
>dictionaries to come on the market . . .

        I agree with this. Because English and Hungarian live in my head in
two entirely separate compartments--mostly because I wasn't learning English
via Hungarian--I often need a dictionary simply because the equivalent of a
word doesn't easily pop into my head. If it is a fairly simple sentence with
fairly simple words, there is no problem. But try to translate, for example,
something a little bit more sophisticated, for example, a newspaper
article--you will run into trouble because the English equivalents Orszagh
give bear no resemblance to the original meaning.

        I was so impressed with the explanations Sam received for his
original question that maybe we should form a "munkakozosseg" and make
ourselves famous by putting out the best English-Hungarian,
Hungarian-English dictionary (;)).

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Orsza1gh (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 02:48 PM 7/6/96 GMT, Steve Scheer wrote:
>I have owned
>the dictitionary in question (all four big volumes of it)
>for nearly thirty years, but have seldom if ever used
>it, thinking it full of bizarre archaisms and strange
>inaccuracies. (Your example of "little slyboots" is a
>good case in point.) This has partly been due to the
>way in which I acquired English: from TV, from movies,
>from English and American literature, from Webster's,
>and, last but not least, from Joe Sixpack . . . :-)
>
        I wonder which edition you have because mine which I purchased in
1968 (second edition) has only three volumes. Two volumes of
English-Hungarian and one volume of Hungarian-English.

        As for using the large Orszagh, I must admit I don't use it very
often. Two years ago I purchased an ordinary Magay-Orszagh keziszotar--a
medium-size one--which is easier to handle, less detailed, and it is easier
to use when looking for a simple word. The last time I used my large Orszagh
was when I was looking for the Hungarian equivalent of "physical therapy,
physical therapist," because an American friend asked me to make inquiries
about the state of the profession in Hungary. Mr. Orszagh's medium-size
dictionary didn't have the word. The large one said: "fizikai terapia." So,
I said to myself, that was simple; I didn't even need a dictionary for that!
There was only one problem: it is not called "fizikai terapia" in Hungarian
but "fizikoterapia," as my fellow Hungarians informed me. So much for the
nagy Orszagh!

        Eva Balogh
'
+ - Re: Historical Causation with Orthographical Philosophy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article <v01540b00ae07dd41b4f7@[204.191.170.140]>, E Fischer
> writes:

>no. that is faulty reasoning. you have reason to respect him for
overcoming
>them.
>
> We have other
>>clues implicit in his posts, namely the fact that he's a pretty good
>>speller and uses the language with facility, that might lead us to
wonder
>>just how hard he's having to concentrate to get his message out to the
>>world.
>
>there is no way for you to assess that.
>
>
>Obviously, he's not autistic. Empathy is a wonderful quality in a
>>human being, but when it is disconnected from one's faculty of critical
>>scrutiny, it can lead one to swallow even the most transparent bogus
>>bullshit claims. Or, as that great Canadian philosopher Alanis
Morrisette
>>says, "You live; you learn."
>
>bullshit is as bullshit does, mr. stowe. i do not particularly subscribe
to
>the notion that the utterings of a pop singer are profound. or at least
>very few popsingers. unfortunately, as for me ms. morisette is not among
>them, we have no basis for discussions of philosophy.
>
>
>>P.S.S. -- Can't sign your posts with your real name, EF? That marks you
as
>>a rank coward in my book.
>
>there is nothing cowardly in choosing to sign a public post with a nym. i
>am responsible for the nym i chose. this is the net, mr. stowe. you may
as
>well learn something of the medium in which you are to function:
>
>there is no way you could prove the veracity of any name that i would
>choose to sign. unless *i* choose to provide you with the information.
and
>i fail to conceive of a reason for you to undertake such a quest. though
>were you to wish to do so, it would not be very difficult to find out who
i
>"really" am.
>
>instead, trust me for who i chose be, mr. stowe. i am not playing games
>with you.
>
>regards
>ef

You are a liar and a bad one at that, in addition to being a coward. I can
accordingly discount anything you might post in future on here. Tibor
Benke's problem is that he is a deadbeat living in a country willing to
use its tax dollars to support him. He attacked Eva Balogh in personal
terms in his first post, then tried to use his "condition" to avoid
critical scrutiny of what he had to say. I detest people who try to cloak
their wrong-doings in the mantle of victimization. He's a con man and if
you've talked to him at all, you've either realized that immediately or
you're a moron. In your case, you're a nitwit as well as being a moron.

Refusing to sign your real name to posts in a public forum is outright
cowardice. You can then make all kinds of irresponsible statements --
attacking Eva or anyone else on the list, for instance, or vouching for
Benke's shabby little scam -- without being held personally responsible.
Anyone who believes a goddamned thing you have to say does so at their own
risk.  I wouldn't trust you any further than I could pick you up and toss
your pseudonymous butt.
Sam Stowe

"If Rose don't like the city life,
I think I'll take her home..."
 -- The Flatlanders (Joe Ely, Jimmie Dale Gilmore and Butch Hancock)
+ - Re: Orsza1gh (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

>         First, I want everybody know how much I enjoyed the discussion of
> Laszlo Orszagh's dictionary. Here are a few questions and additional comments
:
>
> >The magnitude of the achievement was widely recognized
> >at the time, and Orsza1gh received the title "Commander of the British
> >Empire", not too bad for some obscure Hungarian professor with a minimal
> >command of the English language.
>
>         Was his English really that minimal?
>


Orszagh and his wife were among the Hungarians who showed Edmund Wilson
around Budapest when he visited Hungary in the 1960's.  Wilson was
studying Magyar in order to be able to read Magyar poetry in the original
(particularly Ady, I think).

Wilson describes the trip in detail in his Diaries, published as THE SIXTIES.
He never raises any doubts about Orszagh's skill with our language, and
given Wilson's temperament and curmudgeonly old age at hte time I should
think he would.

It is perhaps little evidence on the question, but Orszagh is stil
revered at the Angol-Amerikai Intezet at KLTE, Debrecen, which he helped
found.  Some of the present faculty were his students.  The level of
English competence there is really quite remarkable.

Richard Alexander
+ - Re: Orszagh and nemzet (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hugh Agnew asked:
> The recent discussion on the shades of difference in meaning between
> "orszagos" and "nemzeti" has been very interesting.  One additional
> question occured to me:  is there any tendency in Hungarian, as there
> definitely is in American English, to lose almost entirely the distinction
> between "nation" and "state" (what I assume the fundamental meaning of
> "nemzet" and "orszag" are?).  I've always thought that US confusion on
> questions of nationalism and politics is not made any easier by our
> tendency to treat the two nouns as though they were synonyms.

While not quite up-to-date with present-day Hungarian usage in all Hungarian-
speaking regions, I very much doubt it.

The reason is the dichotomy between the distribution of Hungarian speakers
(constituting the Hungarian nation) and the geographical boundaries of
Hungary.  By now it should be obvious to non-Hungarian readers of this
list how deeply traumatic this dichotomy is for many/most Hungarians.

Not that such lack of confusion between nation and country/state in the
Hungarian context is of much help in the vexed questions of nationalism
and politics, as some neighbours of Hungary reject validity of the above
distinction vis-a-vis their Hungarian citizens (while claiming it for their
own compatriots).

George Antony
+ - Re: A question about pagan heritage (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 12:02 PM 7/9/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        Would you please enlighten us what you mean exactly by the above.
>But, please, briefly. Sam reminded you that Fabor-Beckerian
>style--incredibly long postings--is not appreciated around here.

Yeah.  C'mon, Tibor.  Get with it!  If you want to communicate with the
elements of the moderate right you'll have to learn to express yourself in
ways that they can understand.  I would suggest something similiar to the 3
or 4 second voice clip so popular in television news casts.  I'm sure they'd
be able to digest that amount of information without much trouble.  As to
whether or not they'd be able to understand it, well, that's a totally
different question.

Ah!  Yes!  The politics of simplicity plods on.

Joe Szalai
+ - Faculty Club Etiguette (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

When Hugh Agnew introduced the policy, that those who use abusive language
against an other list member will not be allowed to post to the HUNGARY
list, someone wrote jokingly that now the list will be like a "Faculty
Club". I expected some improvements in the quality of debates.
Unfortunately I do not see much change since the new policy is in effect.
Today, for example, San Stowe wrote the following ugly piece to a new list
contributor, Ms Fisher, who signed her post with her initials:

> You are a liar and a bad one at that, in addition to being a coward. I can
> accordingly discount anything you might post in future on here. Tibor
> Benke's problem is that he is a deadbeat living in a country willing to
> use its tax dollars to support him. He attacked Eva Balogh in personal
> terms in his first post, then tried to use his "condition" to avoid
> critical scrutiny of what he had to say. I detest people who try to cloak
> their wrong-doings in the mantle of victimization. He's a con man and if
> you've talked to him at all, you've either realized that immediately or
> you're a moron. In your case, you're a nitwit as well as being a moron.
>
> Refusing to sign your real name to posts in a public forum is outright
> cowardice. You can then make all kinds of irresponsible statements --
> attacking Eva or anyone else on the list, for instance, or vouching for
> Benke's shabby little scam -- without being held personally responsible.
> Anyone who believes a goddamned thing you have to say does so at their own
> risk.  I wouldn't trust you any further than I could pick you up and toss
> your pseudonymous butt.
> Sam Stowe

Professor Stowe is entitled to have his opinion about people with
disability and about people who post without signing it with full name, but
I don't see why he has to declare it to the list in such an abusive style.
Is this the way the Faculty Club welcomes new members? I wonder, did he
ever blast JELIKO for not signing his letters, or his disdain is reserved
to those whose political views are different from his.

Barna Bozoki
+ - HELP with GOSPELS TEXT (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:57:13 +0000 (CEST)
From: Somosvari Bela >
To: Hungarian Discussion List >
Subject: HELP with GOSPELS TEXT


I am looking for the text of the four gospels in Church Slavonic )classic
and newer reduction)
 forward this message to the convenient list too please.
Thanks in advance Somosva'ri Be'la

AGYKONTROLL ALLAT AUTO AZSIA BUDAPEST CODER DOSZ FELVIDEK FILM FILOZOFIA FORUM GURU HANG HIPHOP HIRDETES HIRMONDO HIXDVD HUDOM HUNGARY JATEK KEP KONYHA KONYV KORNYESZ KUKKER KULTURA LINUX MAGELLAN MAHAL MOBIL MOKA MOZAIK NARANCS NARANCS1 NY NYELV OTTHON OTTHONKA PARA RANDI REJTVENY SCM SPORT SZABAD SZALON TANC TIPP TUDOMANY UK UTAZAS UTLEVEL VITA WEBMESTER WINDOWS