At 09:42 AM 11/16/96 -0800, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

>I am not sure what all this has to do with capitalism. Are you saying that
>overpopulation of the world is caused by capitalism? Or that poverty in less
>developed countries is caused by capitalism? Or that capitalism is racist?
>Or that it is Christian? It stops people from going to college? Or that the
>US has the obligation to share its wealth with the rest of the world?
>Knowing Joe's previous postings, my bet is his answer to all these questions
>is YES! Well, I disagree.

It's nice to know you still don't know where I'm coming from.  You're too
defensive and, as a result, you don't seem to grasp the meaning of my posts.
You may disagree with me, but your argument is with the environment, not me.
I'm just the messanger.

Joe Szalai

L.Monoki wrote:

>>Well, I exactly know this kind of rubbish speech.
>>It's very characteristic!!
>>And Orban Viktor is the granson of Adolf, isn't he!?  ;-)  ;-)
>----------------------------^
>Beep, spelling error: grandson
>
>>
>>I don't accept this kind of characterization anyway,
>>from a person who is not ceasing to shovel her
>>half-baked intellectuel guano on the defenceless
>----------------------^
>Beep, spelling or semantical error: intellectual or entellectuel

Not too long time ago, somebody had a post in Hungarian on this list.
I was unpolite enough to criticize it and even joke with it. Well,
later I got a 'dorgalas' from E.Balogh and she was right. Nowadays
more and more posts appear on the list criticizing others' English.
I think it is as unpolite as it was in my case. As far as I know
 perfect English is not required on this list, so the only thing
one can claim is intelligibility. This is clearly not a problem
in Zoltan's case.
Of course I know that the 'language school' is a way to hurt (or
trying to hurt) the other. This is an understandable tool for
S.Stowe and his alikes as they lack the basic ability for normal
argument, but why we have to follow them? Also, it is a kind of
demonstration of weakness if you concentrate the other's language
rather than his/her message (if there is).

>Ocsi, te olyan sotet vagy, hogy ha delben kimesz az utcara, az embereknek
>villanyt kell gyujtani!
>
>Sorry for writing it in hungarian, but I'm afraid otherwise Zoli wouldn't
>understand it:)

Here is an example when one has no message. Or rather only for his opponent.
Why did not L.Monoki send a personal E-mail to Z.Szekely and then he even
'anyazhat', too. If I want to hear such comments I can get them in the closest
'kocsma' (~pub, bar), I don't need them here. Beside this is the reason why
I don't read th Forum list.

As far as Zoltan Szekely is concerned, I don't agree with him in a lots of
issue, but I think he is not worse than for example Joe Szalai. They complement
each other and also neutralize each other's extreme views (you know like
the 2 sides of the jing-jang symbol).

J.Zsargo

I read a short article with the title "The Curse of Honesty?" in a
provincial paper (Jaszkun Kronika [Szolnok], October 22, 1996) which was
reprinted in *Tallozo," October 31, 1996, p. 2090. I thought that it is
worth translating it at least for two reasons: (1) as an example of what I
call irresponsible journalism; and (2) the differences between American and
Hungarian attitudes toward cheating in school.

        The background. Every year the Soros Foundation sponsors ten high
school students (tenth graders) to study in prestigious private schools in
the United States. The duration of their stay in this country is ten months;
i.e., an academic year. The competition is stiff. This year there was a
problem with one of the students, Ge'za Sa'pi, who received a $20,000
scholarship to attend Woodberry Forest School, an all-boys private school in
Virginia. Only after two weeks, Ge'za Sa'pi was expelled from school and put
on the first plane back to Budapest. Reason: cheating. And here is the article.

        "Although it is widely known that American high schools are quite
"easy-going" and they don't pay much attention to discipline, obviously the
Woodberry Forest School is an exception. The school with a good reputation
follows the Anglo-Saxon model: it is strict, it is a boarding school, and it
educates only boys. The private school is not cheap: the tuition is $20,000
a year and the alumni as well as the current student body is full of sons of
illustrious men. For example, the grandson of former president George Bush.

        "--The rules of the school state: Don't steal! Don't cheat! Don't
lie!--and these rules are taken fairly seriously. Of course, I also thought
that I must follow these rules. But I was somewhat surprised when it was
impossible not to notice during a history test that many of the students
were craning their necks in an effort to write a better exam--says Ge'za
Sa'pi. Shortly after that came the English test which sealed his own fate.

        "--Quite a few of us were crowded together around a round table. The
fellow next to me finished with the first page of the test earlier than I
did, and he practically spread the paper right in front of me. Accidentally
I glanced at the piece of paper and I noticed one, short little word. I
immediately turned my glance away because my feeling was that I prepared
well for the exam and I didn't need to use such methods. But at the end of
the class a classmate of mine told me that he had seen what I had done. I
got frightened and decided that I would tell my teacher what happened. He
listened to me, looked at me a bit oddly and then praised me for my honesty.

        "After that events quickly followed. Next day the seventeen-member
executive committee was called together, and Ge'za had to tell them what
happened. An hour later the principal told him that because he violated the
rules of the school he is expelled. The only reason that he didn't have to
leave the country on the very day because there was no flight to Budapest on
that day. According to the boy, Judit Lafferthon, the head of the
high-school scholarship program at the Soros Foundation, didn't want to
believe that a student can be expelled for such reason and promised that she
would look into the matter. She received the same answer: the act of the
Hungarian student was a very serious matter and hence the expulsion.

        "Ge'za Sa'pi is a student at the Chieftain Lehel Gymnasium in
Jaszbere'ny. The principal of the school, Andras Nagy, himself found the
affair quite unbelievable.

        "--The parents notified me first that unfortunately Ge'za was sent
home from America under unfortunate circumstances. I was very surprised
because the boy's crime--if you can call it that--is not at all
proportionate to the severity of the punishment. In Hungarian schools, of
course, in case of disciplinary problems the school authorities would first
issue a warning, or perhaps in a more serious case, some disciplinary action
would follow. However, the student has the right of appeal, and if the
student doesn't want to exercise his right, or if the appeal is turned down,
only then can a more serious punishment, like expulsion, be metted out. Such
serious punishment as expulsion can influence the future career of the
student and at the same time it is also very unpleasant for the school.

        "--I asked the principal that if this is the executive committee's
decision then what was the use of being so honest even in such a small
matter. His answer was: this way I don't have to carry the "heavy burden" of
guilt on my shoulders. I can go home with clear conscience....

        "I wouldn't be surprised if that case will teach Ge'za--and perhaps
others as well--that it is not necessarily the best thing to be too honest."

        I would be very curious of what the readers' reaction is to this piece.

        Eva Balogh

ESB:

>         Zoltan Szekely tries to convince us [...]
No, I do not want to convince you about anything. You have already
proven a couple of times how hopeless you are as far as understanding
other people's ideas is concerned. So I can not have, sorry, any
intention about your personal conviction. It would be like trying to
pour the clear water into a broken jar.

But I am still having a chance to fight the false and utterly
disgusting "general impression" you and your pals are creating here
about my country.

> this general impression is totally based on nothing.
It is based on a technique so frequently used in this Century against
some defenceless people. Dzugashvili used a technique to create a
"general impression" about the so-called enemies of the people. And
Dr. Goebbels used a similar technique to create a "general impression"
about the Jews of Germany. No, Madame, we don't need any more
"general impressions" about defenceless people. You understand?!

> I am basing my opinion on your utterances about religion, about
> homosexuals, about politics
So your leftwingers are all atheists and homosexuals?! That's great!
Really great!! (Talking about simple-mindedness of some kind of
'intellectuels'...)

What would real leftwingers say about this junky mischaracterization?
Any bet?
(Oh, I almost forgot: your 2 FAVOURITE students died of AIDS. What a
pity! Right in front of their closets they were coming out of. What
a sorrowful story of the legendary university official, Ms. Balogh!)

> >Hungarian people are not worse in any bit than the
> >American people.
>         No, they are not, but they are not better either.
So they deserve some wealth, as well? How about eating dogs for Sunday
dinner? Huhh...?! Or just to hunger out of the school? Shocking, as it
is? That's what we, Hungarians deserve?! Read:

+ A Magyar Hirlap (Ehezo... 1.,11.) osszeallitasabol kiderul:
+ legalabb 300 ezer veszelyeztetett gyermekrol tudnak a hazai
+ statisztikak.
+
+ Ok azok, akiket szuleik, neveloik rendszeresen bantalmaznak,
+ szexualisan zaklatnak, koldulasra kenyszeritenek, vagy ehezessel
+ buntetnek. Am, hogy orszagosan mennyi gyermek nem jut rendszeresen
+ megfelelo taplalekhoz, azt meg megbecsulni is nehez. Sok iskolaban
+ tapasztaljak, hogy a kisdiakok rosszul lesznek az ehsegtol. Sokan
+ osszeszedik a kenyermaradekot a menzarol, es hazaviszik szuleiknek,
+ testvereiknek. Baranyaban akad olyan falu, ahol kutya kerul az asztalra,
+ mert mas nincs. Hajdu-Biharban helyenkent csapatokban gyujtik ossze az
+ elhullott allatok tetemeit, es azzal csillapitjak ehseguket.

I am too disgusted and painful to translate this into English. Sorry.

> And more
> importantly, whatever their shortcomings they should not be hidden from view.
                        ^^^^^
See you all?! That's Eva Balogh speaking about Hungarian people.
She is not one of us anymore. That's exactly what she is saying.
Very clear! I got it now.

>         You make me sick, fellow!
Not, Eva. I am not making you sick. Your losing of your national
identity makes you sick. And it won't make you feel better anymore!
No way. And you know why? Because you used to be a Hungarian.
                                                          Sz. Zoli

At 10:00 PM 11/18/96 +0100, Gyorgy Kadar wrote:

>        Is it forbidden to pronounce opinions or to formulate one's own
>thinking at your university? ... Not yet in Hungary! ... ;-)

        No, it is not if one's opinions are based on facts. Your opinions
are based on an interpretation of history which George Antony rather aptly
called fairy tales of Andersen.


>>         If you think that people like Mecs, Vasarhely, Halda, Darvas,
>> Goncz--just to mention a few people who are at least as old as I am if not
>> older--are so stupid that they decided to join the SZDSZ simply because the
>> SZDSZ was "in opposition" of the MSZMP, I think you are again dead wrong.
>
>        I could have been dead wrong, if I had thought, what you want me
>to think. Read my sentence again, and you will not find anything about the
>SzDSz there. Please, do not interpret my writing! Just read it, if you do
>not have better entertainment...

        I threw out your letter and therefore I can't quote it verbatim but
I would like to remind you that your adherence to exact wording--"I didn't
say that; I have never mentioned the SZDSZ"--is simply a primitive avoidance
of responsibility for your own words. There is a good word for it in
English: sophistry!

>>         It is not a puzzle. I gave a very good explanation why the SZDSZ
>
>        And my personal opinion is different from your very good
>explanation. And this is no news...

        Well, according to you it is a "puzzle." Something which is
"puzzling" is not understood terribly well. So, I figured that your using
the word "puzzle" indicates that you are puzzled--that is that you don't
understand or that it is difficult for you to understand the real state of
affairs. I gave you a possible explanation which might help you in your
puzzled state. But now I understand that you are not really puzzled--you
simply have a different personal opinion on the matter which is, naturally,
different from mine. Fine, but then, don't say that it is a "puzzle."

        And by the way, perhaps it is not fair to continue this discussion
which seems to be turning on language and meaning. After all, my English in
some ways is better than my Hungarian (I can express myself better in
English) and therefore I have an advantage over you.

>>         But, Eva Durant is right when it comes to Gyorgy Kadar's view of
>> Hungarian politics today.
>        Eva Durant is probably right, and probably I was wrong when I
>thought, that the ideological foundation of social-democracy traces back
>to Karl Marx. (! ??? !)

        Well, you know the fact is that most of us are, more or less, pretty
well educated and therefore you don't have to make disparaging remarks of
this kind. Moreover, you don't really have to be terribly well educated to
know that Marx had something to do with social democracy. On the other hand,
every thinking person knows that Western European social democracy today is
so different from Marx's original ideas that it is really not worth
mentioning good old Karl. His ideas about historical materialism,
inevitability of a proletarian revolution, just to mention a couple of his
ideas,  have no longer any relevance in social democracy today. So, if you
are objecting to social democracy on the grounds that once upon the time the
social democratic movement was inspired by Marx, you are a bit behind times.

>> According to Gyorgy Kadar, nothing has changed.
>> The MSZP is the same as the MSZMP or the MDP, or the MKP. And now these
>> horrible communists are helped by a so-called opposition, the SZDSZ. And the
>> SZDSZ's ideology is not at all different from that of the MSZP, the MSZMP,
>> the MDF, and the MKP. So, according to Gyorgy Kadar, nothing has changed
>> since 1949 or 1950!
>        That's what you said... I did not say anything like this.
>        Please, do not interpret my sentences, please!

        Same kind of sophistry. Sure, you din't say it in so many words, but
you implied it!

>> Thus, there is a
>> terribly polarized society where at least a sizeable portion of the
>> population isn't seeing reality as it should be seen.
>        In a pluralistic parlamentary democracy who is entitled to decide,
>how the reality   "s h o u l d   b e   s e e n"?

        Oh, yes, if you want to see society in an entirely distorted
way--because you see the past in a distorted manner--then, I guess, you are
entitled to think or do anything you want. However, the problem is that a
world view which is completely divorced from reality is not very helpful in
assessing the needs of the country. In spite of your burning love of the
fatherland you are not doing any favor by misinterpreting its past and its
present. And blatantly so!

        Eva Balogh

The exchange on this topic between Gyorgy Kadar and me reminds me the Who's
on first story (or Hacsek es Sajo). Who is Hacsek and who is Sajo, I guess
it is up to the rest of the readers to decide. All I can say that I did not
deliberately misunderstand anything.

And since Gyorgy explained that most of his statements are based on his
personal opinion, here is mine:

I like the SZDSZ's basic philosophy. Although I dislike their coalition with
the MSZP, I don't think that it is a reason for condemning all other aspect
of the SZDSZ. Again, I think they chose the smaller evil.

On March 15 (I think) 1987 it was the to be SZDSZ members who were beaten up
by police. Let's not forget that before calling them "opposition".

I find it sad that politics is so dirty even in Hungary (on all sides), it
is not a coincidence that TGM and others withdrew from active political life.

Gabor D. Farkas

NAPI SAJTOSZEMLE

1996. november 18., hetfo

Keszitette Bodnar Daniel, a Batthyany Lajos Alapitvany
megbizasabol

A Magyar Hirlap (Ehezo... 1.,11.)
legalabb 300 ezer..................

Ok azok, akiket szuleik, neveloik rendszeresen bantalmaznak,
szexualisan zaklatnak, koldulasra kenyszeritenek, vagy ehezessel
buntetnek. Am, hogy orszagosan mennyi gyermek nem jut rendszeresen
megfelelo taplalekhoz, azt meg megbecsulni is nehez. Sok iskolaban
tapasztaljak, hogy a kisdiakok rosszul lesznek az ehsegtol. Sokan
osszeszedik a kenyermaradekot a menzarol, es hazaviszik szuleiknek,
testvereiknek. Baranyaban akad olyan falu, ahol kutya kerul az asztalra,
mert mas nincs. Hajdu-Biharban helyenkent csapatokban gyujtik ossze az
elhullott allatok tetemeit, es azzal csillapitjak ehseguket.

Gyorgy Kadar wrote:

>         Eva Durant is probably right, and probably I was wrong when I
> thought, that the ideological foundation of social-democracy traces back
> to Karl Marx. (! ??? !)

Eva Balogh has already pointed out why this is either plain silly or
facetious in reference to modern European social democracy.

What she did not elaborate on, however, is your non sequitur, trying to
project the historical ideological development of social democracy onto
the personal ideological development of certain people in Hungary.  This
is more than silly or facetious, it betrays either a gaping hole in your
ability to contribute to rational debate or a very sly, shifty kind of
argumentative style ("csu'sztata's" in Hungarian) that Gabor Farkas
alluded to.

>Eva Balogh wrote:
> > According to Gyorgy Kadar, nothing has changed.
> > The MSZP is the same as the MSZMP or the MDP, or the MKP. And now these
> > horrible communists are helped by a so-called opposition, the SZDSZ. And th
e
> > SZDSZ's ideology is not at all different from that of the MSZP, the MSZMP,
> > the MDF, and the MKP. So, according to Gyorgy Kadar, nothing has changed
> > since 1949 or 1950!

>         That's what you said... I did not say anything like this.
>         Please, do not interpret my sentences, please!

No, of course, you did not say that, you merely implied it (nudge, nudge,
wink, wink, know what I mean), or your English is much worse than it
appears.  Actually, since you have a similar approach to this same issue
in Hungarian, it cannot be your English.

>         Istenvelunk...                  kadargyorgy

And here is a huge contrast: your sanctimonious mannerism that clashes
very badly with an extremely uncharitable, very non-Christian approach to
people and facts.  The former by itself would be nothing but something quaint
and idiosynchratic, albeit culturally out of place in English.  Complete
with the second it makes you appear a hypocrite and an irritant to people
who think that Christianity lies in the act, not the facade, and the latter
without the former is a travesty.

George Antony

In article >,
 says...
>
>In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:
>
>>Yeah, so am I.  And I hope you're not one of those squeamish little
>liberals
>>who favour the death penalty but, for whatever silly reason, want the
act
>to
>>be neat, sanitized and accepted.
>
>It doesn't necessarily need to be neat or accepted. Regardless of
whether
>the method of execution embodies either of those two qualities, the
place
>of execution will be sanitized after the fact. Health department rules,
>you know. I accept that significant parts of society will never accept
the
>application of the death penalty. There are significant parts of this
>society which have trouble accepting that the earth is round. That's the
>price you pay for living in a democracy. I also accept that the death
>penalty may not always be neat in application. Only one of the people
>executed in North Carolina since the restoration of the death penalty
has
>chosen the gas chamber over lethal injection. This self-proclaimed
>prisoner of conscience, whose conscience never waxed very eloquently
over
>the lives of the two people he tortured to death in the course of a home
>break-in, sat down in the chair, ran his mouth at the spectators until
the
>pellets hit the bucket of acid, then began begging and pleading for
mercy.
>He managed to work himself halfway out of the restraints before finally
>collapsing. I imagine death row inmates in future will share your
>aesthetic concerns, Joe, and opt for the more dignified exit.
>
>>Sorry, but a painless lethal injection or
>>a quiet electrical surge just isn't punishment.  That's what's done to
>>chickens and pigs so that they can end up in cellophaned packages at
the
>>grocery store.  No, the death penalty should be a celebration!  It
should
>be
>>an event the whole family can value and enjoy.  Dismemberment, burning,
>>drowning, gassing, starving, hanging, crucifying, poisoning, beheading,
>and
>>anything else we can think of, including a subscription to the HUNGARY
>list
>>and the compulsory reading of every post by Peter Soltesz and Zoltan
>Szekely
>>can, and should, be used.  It should always be a fun spectacle.
>
>The last-named method, of course, has been adjudged cruel and unusual
>punishment by the U.S. Supreme Court. I would be more than happy to ship
>every death row inmate in the U.S. to Ontario where they can live out
>their lives in tranquillity and serenity. All I ask is that they stay
>there.
>Sam Stowe
>
>>
Ah Sam!  Milliok egy miatt!  You don't have to punish everybody in
Ontario just because you don't agree with Joe!

Agnes
>>
>>
>
>
>
>"You can sum up the entire history of the
>Confederacy in one sentence -- 'Good
>defense; couldn't win on the road'..."
>-- Joe Queenan

Johanne L. Tournier wrote:
>
> Hi, Eva!
>
>
> >        This is how the Hungarian right's mind works: conspiracy,
> >conspiracy, conspiracy!! ............................


> >The meager opposition to the Kadar regime was, of
> >course, also planted--by the government itself. And now in the form of the
> >SZDSZ they joined the forces of evil in order to ruin the Hungarian people!
> >And, of course, Joe and Sam have been planted too. You didn't get it until
> >now? But it is obvious: we all have been planted in order to discredit
> >patriotic Hungarians like Zoli Szekely and Janos Zsargo. A cosmopolitan
> >conspiracy against the nation.
>


----------------------------
The Gati affair is the living proof of the conspiracy.


Albert Albu

>Well, I exactly know this kind of rubbish speech.
>It's very characteristic!!
>And Orban Viktor is the granson of Adolf, isn't he!?  ;-)  ;-)
----------------------------^
Beep, spelling error: grandson

>
>I don't accept this kind of characterization anyway,
>from a person who is not ceasing to shovel her
>half-baked intellectuel guano on the defenceless
----------------------^
Beep, spelling or semantical error: intellectual or entellectuel

>poors and the downthrodded of my country.
>
>Hungarian people are not worse in any bit than the
>American people. And your moral obligation should be
>to help the poors of the nation and not to throw them
>into the pit of uneasing capitalistic exploitation.
>
>And yes, I have a nation, have you?!        Sz. Zoli
>
What nation? Nation of retardeds (oops, call it "mentally challanged"?)

Ocsi, te olyan sotet vagy, hogy ha delben kimesz az utcara, az embereknek
villanyt kell gyujtani!

Sorry for writing it in hungarian, but I'm afraid otherwise Zoli wouldn't
understand it:)
BTW, let's somebody voluntarily help to translate him what's going on this
list. And his answers too, please!!!

Zaltan, maybe you are not a rightwinger, but you talk (write), like a
rightwinger, think like a rightwinger, you see the world like a rightwinger.
So if you are not a rightwinger, then you must be schizophrenic.

L. Monoki

"Two of every one here is schizophrenic" - Murphy's Law

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
On Nov 17 1996 in HUNGARY #850 Farkas D. Gabor
> wrote:

>Temakor: Hunger in Hungary ( 11 sor )
>
> In tomorrow's Magyar Hirlap there is a long article about many
> people (even children) going hungry in Hungary. Apparently the
> Hungarian Red Cross and other charitable organizations are trying to help,
> but I am sure any help from anyone would be appreciated. Can we all,
> occasional or regular contributors to this list start somehow an action
> of helping the hungry in Hungary? I am thinking to something similar to
> the Help the needy drive The New York Times starts every year around
> Thanksgivings day. A good start would be a list of charitable organizations
> in Hungary with their addresses. Possibly someone like Magda Zimanyi
> could help with this.
>
> Gabor D. Farkas

I called the Hungarian Red Cross (Magyar Voroskereszt). The addresses
are as follows:

Magyar Voroskereszt Orszagos Titkarsag
Budapest
Arany Janos u. 31
H-1051 Hungary

Phone: +36-1-131-3952
       +36-1-111-9884
Fax:   +36-1-153-1388

Bank account No. for payments in Hungarian Forints (HUF):

Magyar  Kulkereskedelmi Bank
Budapest Szent Istvan ter 15.
H-1051 Hungary

Account No: 10300002-20329725-70073285

Bank account No. for payments in US $'s (USD):

Magyar  Kulkereskedelmi Bank
Budapest Szent Istvan ter 11.
H-1051 Hungary

Account No: 501-20003-2100-4013

Reference should be given that the payment is for

Magyar Voroskereszt Orszagos Titkarsag
as a donation

I also tried to reach Magyar Maltai Szeretetszolgalat, but their phone
is permanently busy :-(. I shall write to you after having reached
them when I have their bank account numbers.

Hope this helps. Best regards
Magda

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-175-8257
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-169-6567
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Lectoris Salutem!
        It was a mistake to elaborate on my short "synopsis". But I
wanted to clarify some points, that were misunderstood by Gabor D. Farkas.
Now I see, that he deliberately misunderstands anything he wants.

> Again, who are those in the SZDSZ "komenymag", who are now convinced
> marxists, and on what else is this statement based, other than their
> government coalition?
        Gabor, not convinced marxist, but disillusioned marxists, and the
statement on their marxism was based on their university years (Peto, Kis,
Haraszti and others) and on their move into the coalition

> And again, what is wrong with disillusioned marxists
> joining the opposition to marxism? What else would you recommend they did?
        The only wrong (and this is personal) is that I believed the
sincerity of their first 180 degree turn, I trusted them in the early
eighties, but I cannot believe the sincerity of any turn (including the
first one) after the second 180 degree turn. [Moricz Zs: Legy jo
mindhalalig --> Etiam ille est furor, qui fiduciam hominum rapit]

> I also object to guilt by association, whether to fathers, godfathers or
> any other relatives. Each adult person should be judged by his/her own
> deeds, regardless who their parents were (famous examples: Castro's
> daughter, Stalin's daughter).
        It is far from me to judge, let alone to guilt anybody for any
kind of political behavior. But the mentioned "umbrella" was there, and my
opinion about the individual persons of the "komenymag" (not by
association and not equally, but one by one) has changed much (perhaps
somewhat less than 180 degree ;-)) since the early eighties. May I have an
opinion?

> > But in the sixties in university circles more
> >than one member of the "hard core" or "ko:me'nymag" of the later SzDSz
> >were known as convinced marxists, if not maoists. Sure enough, 1968 was
> >quite a milestone in this respect.
>
> I am not sure I understand the last sentence. Did they come out and support
> the Warsaw pact invasion of Chechoslovakia? Or what?
        1968 is quite the end of the sixties. Sorry, but this is what I
meant an example of deliberate misunderstanding. But I explain: exactly
the Warsaw pact invasion of Czechoslovakia was the milestone, where and
when most of the young marxists lost illusions, and became disillusioned
marxists/maoists.

> >        The "democratic opposition" of the late seventies-early eighties
> >was surrounded by non-marxist sympathizers too, who visited the shop of L.
> >Rajk, who distributed the issues of "Beszelo" and other "samizdat"
> >publications among each other, who supported them even financially, etc.
> >It was just natural, that 56-ers like Mecs, Vasarhelyi, Halda, Darvas
> >found friends in the "opposition" of the MSzMP regime.
>
> Why do you put opposition in quotation marks? Please explain, why were they
> not true opposition?
        They were true and then even democratic in the opposition. Since
1988 I use quotation marks, as an expression of my personal opinion.

        And I remain with the naive solution of the puzzle.
        Remember: Etiam ille est furor..... --> Az is tolvaj, aki az
emberek bizalmat meglopja.
        Istenvelunk...                  kadargyorgy

Lectoris Salutem!
        What an eruption this week-end!   ;-)
        Eva Balogh wrote:

> At 03:27 PM 11/15/96 +0100, Gyorgy Kadar wrote:
>
> >        I have never declared myself a historian...
> >        I am all right with natural science...
>
>         But you are remarking on historical events. You gave a synposis of
> Hungarian history of the last fifty years or so. Yes, you are "not a
> historian," that's for sure, but that doesn't stop you--or anyone else for
> that matter--to make historical pronouncements. And on the basis of those
> pronouncements/opinions you formulate your own thinking of today's events.
> And as long as you are dead wrong about the past you most likely are dead
> wrong about the present as well!

        Is it forbidden to pronounce opinions or to formulate one's own
thinking at your university? ... Not yet in Hungary! ... ;-)

>         If you think that people like Mecs, Vasarhely, Halda, Darvas,
> Goncz--just to mention a few people who are at least as old as I am if not
> older--are so stupid that they decided to join the SZDSZ simply because the
> SZDSZ was "in opposition" of the MSZMP, I think you are again dead wrong.

        I could have been dead wrong, if I had thought, what you want me
to think. Read my sentence again, and you will not find anything about the
SzDSz there. Please, do not interpret my writing! Just read it, if you do
not have better entertainment...

>         It is not a puzzle. I gave a very good explanation why the SZDSZ

        And my personal opinion is different from your very good
explanation. And this is no news...

        And again by Eva Balogh:

>         But, Eva Durant is right when it comes to Gyorgy Kadar's view of
> Hungarian politics today.
        Eva Durant is probably right, and probably I was wrong when I
thought, that the ideological foundation of social-democracy traces back
to Karl Marx. (! ??? !)

> According to Gyorgy Kadar, nothing has changed.
> The MSZP is the same as the MSZMP or the MDP, or the MKP. And now these
> horrible communists are helped by a so-called opposition, the SZDSZ. And the
> SZDSZ's ideology is not at all different from that of the MSZP, the MSZMP,
> the MDF, and the MKP. So, according to Gyorgy Kadar, nothing has changed
> since 1949 or 1950!
        That's what you said... I did not say anything like this.
        Please, do not interpret my sentences, please!

> Thus, there is a
> terribly polarized society where at least a sizeable portion of the
> population isn't seeing reality as it should be seen.
        In a pluralistic parlamentary democracy who is entitled to decide,
how the reality   "s h o u l d   b e   s e e n"?

>         Of course, I know what Gyorgy Kadar's reaction to the above is going
> to be: how does Eva Balogh know that reality as she sees it is correct.
        I am here to formulate my reaction ... if you do not mind.
        I know that Eva Balogh's picture of reality is as correct for her
as mine is correct for me. Both are based on personal experiences, and I
wouldn't dare to qualify my own experiences more real than hers. What is
more, I am sure, that her knowledge about historical facts is immensely
wider than mine. However, I wouldn't dare to persuade here to wear
eyeglasses tested by me, even if my knowledge about the mathematics  of
optical lenses might be wider than hers.

> Well, I'm afraid only time will tell but, being as arrogant as I am, I am
> convinced that I am right.
        This is very important. Modern educational theories say, that the
most important experience of a person must be self-confidence: to be
convinced that one is right.

> Put it that way: I am terribly disappointed in
> the governing coalition and I don't see any other party among the ranks of
> the opposition which I would like to see in power or which I would consider
> to be acceptable for building a happy and prosperous Hungary.
        Interestingly enough we might agree on this point with some
refinements... mainly about timing.
        Remember: do not interpret the thoughts of others, please!

        Istenvelunk...                  kadargyorgy