Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 835
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-11-02
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 SIGNOFFHUNGARY (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: only one explanation (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: only one explanation (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
5 Taxonomy (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  92 sor     (cikkei)
7 Recommended Reading (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Last day low fares to Hungary! (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)
10 REQ: Do I need a visa? (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
11 double double (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Last day low fares to Hungary! (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
13 1100th Year Celebrations in Washington (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  123 sor     (cikkei)
15 Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: REQ: Do I need a visa? (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
18 VISA Requirements (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)
20 War Criminals (mind)  60 sor     (cikkei)
21 VISA and INFO about Hun (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)

+ - SIGNOFFHUNGARY (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

--------------------------------------
Marie Laurence KNITTEL

E-mail: 
+ - Re: only one explanation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 on Oct 28 19:54:12 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #831:

>     I beg you not to bring discord onto this list.
>
>        Eva Balogh

Eva, nothing is further from my intentions than inciting discord, much less
hatred on this, the 40th anniversary of that glorious October.  It was my
indignation at Andras doing just that that caused me to react.  Let me quote
again:

Kornai ( ) says on  Oct 25 17:17:41 EDT in #828:

>...a particular faction of
>today's ultraright trying to hijack 56, a rare moment of national unity, for
>its own purposes. The "szabadsa1gharc" myth, which comes up on this list
>time and again, is a key example of this.

I wanted to take exception to this cynical reference to "myth", and the
attendant sowing of, yes, discord.

Ferenc
+ - Re: only one explanation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 wrote on Mon Oct 28 19:22:08 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #831:

> My parents did not, willingly or unwillingly,
>serve the Ka1da1r regime. It is no secret that my father was economic
advisor
>for the short-lived Nagy government, and that he NEVER served as an advisor
in
>the Ka1da1r/Gro1sz/Ne1meth era. Upon the publication of his PhD
(kandida1tus)
>thesis "Overcentralization of economic administration" he was officially
>declared a traitor to marxism.

I stand corrected.  There is no evidence of your parents having  willingly
served the Kadar regime.  But I am not aware of them publicly opposing it,
either.  To be in a prominent academic position during the Kadar years
usually required at least a tacit recognition of the authority and legitimacy
of the communist regime.  Professing Marxist ideology was de rigeur until
almost the end.  Hence the idea of serving, however indirectly or
unwittingly, the communist cause.  Also, to be declared a traitor to Marxism,
one would have to be a declared Marxist.

Ferenc
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 wrote on Oct 29 10:23:51 EST 1996 in HUNGARY #832:

>At 01:36 AM 10/29/96 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>>Well, so what? If you read a few books about medieval Europe you would
learn
>>tons of such stories. What is so extraordinary on this one?

>        May I ask why you are so defensive? Did I say that such things
>didn't happen anywhere else but in Hungary? The only thing I said was that
>most likely Laszlo Hunyadi was a rat and Laszlo V, or his advisors, were
>also rats. But, Hungarian nationalism made him a hero.

Not a hero, but the victim of a king's broken promise.

>        As for mixing up Erkel's two operas: most likely I did.

You most certainly did.

>The last
>time I saw Bank ban was 30 years ago. It was terrible then and I bet it
>would be terrible now. The same is true about Laszlo Hunyadi. Poor Erkel
>wasn't very talented.

Now, Eva, who is being defensive?  Being ignorant about opera is no great
sin.  There are millions of people in this country who don't know the
difference between opera and operation.  For all we know, they could still be
perfectly good historians or whatever.  I am sure Erkel doesn't care one whit
about your unexpert opinion.

Eva, you have plenty of knowledge and talents in other fields; why are you
trying ever to be the expert on everything?  You are no Renaissance person,
so let those fields you know little about alone.  No one knows everything.

As for nationalistic hero-worship, it's not such a terrible thing.  Take two
examples from the USA:  Betsy Ross, the alleged flag-seamstress, and George
Washington and the apple tree.  Every schoolchild in America is treated to
their stories, yet it is well known that they have no basis in reality.  So
what?  All nations have a need for stories about heroes doing heroic things,
even if the stories can't quite stand the test of  objective analysis.  Let's
just leave them be, as long as they do no harm.

Ferenc
+ - Taxonomy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andras Kornai > on 25 Oct 96 writes:

<...ultraright trying to hijack 56, a rare moment of national unity,
<for its own purposes. The "szabadsagharc" myth, which come up on
<this list time and again, is a key example of this.

There are many indications that the use of "szabadsagharc" with respect
to the events of '56 is in ascendancy. Two examples, out of many:

1. In Magyar Hirlap, Babo Peter writes, commenting on a film by
Magyar Jozsef, "Szinten onalloan kell feldolgozni a szovjet beavatkozas
utani esemenyek, a szabadsagharc tortenetet."....

2. Just off Szent Istvan ut in Nyiregyhaza, near the Kossuth H.S., there
is a commemorative tablet referring to the events of '56 as "szabadsagharc".

Neither the municipal authorities in Nyiregyhaza, nor the editors of MH
can be characterized as ultrarightists. The fact of the matter is that
quite frequently now, reference to '56 is made as "nepfelkeles,
forradalom es szabadsagharc." To some it was a forradalom, but many,
recalling the attempt to rid their country of a foreign yoke, are more
comfortable with the expression "szabadsagharc." There is room for both
interpretations.

Excellent books on the history of modern Hungary continue to be
published. A noteworthy addition is

        Rudolf L. Tokes: Hungary's Negotiated Revolution
        Cambridge University Press, 1996.

This book, along with

        Gyorgy Litvan: The Hungarian Revolution of 1956:
        Reform, Revolt and Repression
        Longmans, 1996.

received a favorable review in the current issue of the New York Review
of Books. There, Timothy Garton Ash in his essay, "Hungary's Revolution:
Forty Years On" got it right:

"To describe 1956 as "the victory of a defeat" as the Hungarian
intellectual Miklos Molnar did in his book of 1968, was not merely
romantic hyperbole and wishful thinking. Perhaps the simplest and most
direct consequence is one that could be seen immediately, but has
endured. This is the sympathy toward Hungary on the part of people
around the world who either had hardly noticed the country's existence
before, or had a rather negative image of it, seeing it as an oppressor of
minorities before 1914 and Germany's ally in two world wars. This basic
positive association from the uprising of 1956, supplanting a negative or
non-existent one, has persisted, and remains a national treasure -or
asset, to use language more appropriate to the 1990's- as the country
tries to join EU and NATO."

CSABA K ZOLTANI
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

"Eva S. Balogh" > wrote:

>         What is the truth? Let's start with the death of King Sigismund[...]
> The Cilleis were members
> of one oligarchy while the Hunyadis were heading another one. And now we
> arrived to the immediate background of Laszlo's beheading.

I know this comes late, but here are some significant details, dug out
from Held's "Hunyadi: Legend and Reality" [East European Monographs,
Colombia University Press, 1985], suggesting that Laszlo Hunyadi's
character might not have been so flawed as Eva has pictured it ;-)

Held's account of the events, inserted almost ad literam between Eva's
lines, is based entirely on primary sources.

>         Janos Hunyadi, the most powerful man in the country and head of the
> rival oligarchy to the Cillei-Ujlaki-Garai group, died right after the
> famous Battle of Nandorfehervar/Belgrade, and his death began new rivalry
> between the two groups for power.

Janos Hunyadis being dead, Cilli openly voiced his threat to have
Hunyadi's sons killed. Thus, he sent a message of congratulations to
the king for having been freed of so great an obstacle to his rule in
the Kingdom of Hungary, and suggesting that he, Cilli, was ready "to
extermine this house of dogs," namely, the sons of Hunyadi.

He also sent a letter to his father-in-law, Brankovic, notifying the
old despot that he would send him soon "two balls" the like of which
he had not seen before, with which he would be able to play to his
heart's content. The letter was intercepted, and Mihaly Szilagy had it
read aloud to the assambled friends of the Hunyadis, including bishop
Vitez. When the cleric was asked his opinion, he answered that,
although he was a peaceful and tolerant man and could not condone the
assassination of the count, if it were to take place, he would not
condemn it.

> In October 1456 all the important barons
> gathered at Futak for a gathering of the Diet. During the Diet's
> proceedings, Laszlo Hunyadi, older son of Janos, promised the king that he
> would relinquish the royal castles and incomes to the newly appointed
> captain-general (orszagos fo"kapita'ny), Ulrik Cillei, the uncle of Laszlo
> V. (Janos Hunyadi had occupied the position before.)

Nevertheless, Laszlo Hunyadi was the appointed captain of the the city
and fortress of Belgrade.

> But when the king
> arrived at Nandorfehervar in order to receive the royal fort, Laszlo Hunyadi
> refused to allow the king's troops inside the walls, entrapped Ulrik Cillei
> and killed him.

Actually, the king, accompanied by crusaders and Cilli's soldiers,
was greeted with great respect; Laszlo Hunyadi waited for him at the
gates and handed him the keys of the city. The king graciously
accepted them and returned them to Laszlo, signifying that Belgrade
was now entrusted to his care. About one hundred festive knights
followed the king into the city. Behind them, the gates were suddently
shut. As Hunyadi explained to the surprised king Hungary's laws
forbade the entry of foreign troops into the fortresses of the
frontier districts.

Cilli, naturally frightened, suggested to the king that Laszlo Hunyadi
was after his crown and the only way out of the trap was to kill him.
The conversation was overheard and reported to Hunyadi. A council of
Hunyadi's friends was called and they agreed to kill Cilli. The next
day, while the king and Cilli went together to a mass, Cilli was
called out, and an argument ensued betweem him and Laszlo Hunyadi.
Both reached for their swords, and Cilli wounded his young rival. At
this, the friends of Hunyadi, hiding in an adjoining room, ran out and
Mihaly Szilagy cut off the head of the resisting count.

>The king himself became the captive of the Hunyadi party and
> under duress he promised not to avenge his uncle's death and make Laszlo
> Hunyadi captain-general of the country.

The king was horrified and expected that his turn would be next, but
Hunyadi tried to explain the reasons for the murder and asked for the
king's pardon. The king accompanied Hunyadi to Temesvar, were, at a
mass celebrated at the cathedral, he embraced Hunyadi's mother,
proclaimed her his mother and her sons his brothers, and then he
placed his hand on the sepulchre and swore that he would never revenge
the Cilli's death.

> After he was freed, however, at the  pressure of the barons belonging
>to the anti-Hunyadi party, he brought suit  against Laszlo, the younger
>Hunyadi, Matyas, and several other leading  members of the oligarchy.
>The were all condemned to death for high treason.  At the end only
>Laszlo Hunyadi was beheaded.

Regards,

Liviu Iordache
+ - Recommended Reading (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The November 14 issue of the New York Review of Books has an article
by Timothy Garton Ash titled Hungary's Revolution: Forty Years On.
It reviews the 1956 Institute's short history of the revolution
(edited by Gyorgy Litvan, Longman, 1996) and Rudolf Tokes' book on the
Kadar era (published by Cambridge UP).  The bulk of the review is taken
up by a report on the recent conference jointly organized in Budapest
by the 1956 Institute, the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, and the
Cold War International History Project in Washington, DC.  Ash discusses
the newly discovered notes of Malin on the deliberations of the Soviet
Politburo during the crisis, and some recently unearthed material on
the efforts of the Hungarian secret police to manipulate the events
of the 1989 democratic transition (through agents of influence within
the opposition).

The Malin notes pretty well debunk the notion that the decision of the
Politburo to send in the tanks had an air of inevitability about it.
Ash calls this "the illusion of retrospective determinism", meaning the
belief that "what actually happened had to happen".  The Malin notes
show a frantic group of confused Politburo members vacillating until the
last moment, finally pushed to a decision by pressure from Togliatti and
Mao to "restore order".  This issue of the NYRB is well worth a visit to
your favorite newsstand -- if only for David Levine's caricature of a
pestilential-looking Kadar in his dotage.

-----
Gabor Fencsik
+ - Re: Last day low fares to Hungary! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Of course the fares are low!  Who the heck wants to go to Hungary in the
winter!  I can still feel the chill coming off the Danube in late-October.

Let's discuss the matter again in April--make that May.

Burian
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Liviu Iordache wrote:

>>>Anyhow, I subscribe to Eva's viewpoint that for an individual, in
>>>those times, feudal- and religious-dependence weighted more  than his
>>>ethnicity. None of Hunyadi's actions indicate that, from an ethnical
>>>viewpoint, he felt either Romanian or Hungarian.
>>
>>This is probably true, but nobody was talking about this, only B.E.
>
>It might be a difference between what you wrote
>
>"...a son of Janos Hunyadi and the brother of Matyas Hunyadi. The last
>two are real national heroes, despite their national origin."
>
>and what you actually meant, right?

Look, a national hero does not have to feel Hungarian in my opinion (and I may
not be alone with this opinion). I do not see what difference you was talking
about, I think I was clear. So, either be more specific or leave me alone.
I usually write my post early morning (2-3am), when I am tired and do not have
time and energy for the 'comedy of misunderstandings'.

>>I consider him a national hero because of his positive role in the
>>Hungarian History. Because of him and his family the turkish occupation
>>was much shorter than it could have been,
>
>Yadda, yadda, yadda.... Then, I guess, Tamerlane is also a national
>Hungarian hero, despite his national origin, because his victory over
>Bayazid at Ankara made the Ottoman occupation of South-Central Europe
>much shorter than it could have been.
>
>>Their ethnicity or their motivation is not that important.
>
>And Tamerlane meets both criteria ;-)

First of all:

'THEIR ETHNICITY OR MOTIVATION IS NOT THAT IMPORTANT' is not the same as
'THEIR ETHNICITY OR MOTIVATION IS NOT IMPORTANT AT ALL'.

Second:

There were no criteria in my post about the Hunyadis only my thoughts.
Finally if you wan to talk about criterias, have you ever heard about the
'necessary but not sufficient criterias'?

J.Zs
+ - REQ: Do I need a visa? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello folks,

I've been a huge admirer of hungarian culture for a long time.
I'm thinking to visit budapest this winter.
I'll stay there for a week.
I got a korean diplomat passport.

Do I need a visa?
My trip purpose is a simple jouney

Thanks.
--
            __          _       _
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   \__        | |       /      |   \   [] -*REMEMBER:Death is nature's way[]
         \              _        |\    [] -* to  tell you to slow down.   []
    _ ___/    |_    /        \  _    _|[] -*                              []

     Stan 's web page : http://www.shef.ac.uk/students/pm/pma95ssk
                ======= E-Mail : ======
       __~@   __~@           __~@        Run                   -----   __~@
    _-\__<,_-\__<,        _-\__<,     for your life...       -----  _-\__<,
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
* This sadness must go on -
       From the late Van Gough's last word **
+ - double double (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I am receiving today everything twice or more times
from the hungary list. Once is more than enough...

+ - Re: Last day low fares to Hungary! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Or the fact, that the flight costs more from
the UK in all seasons than that price quoted from N.Y.
, and even more
on the train. International train-travel is now
a luxury in Europe.

+ - 1100th Year Celebrations in Washington (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On November the 12th: The 1100th anniversary of the Hungarian Republic
will be celebrating in grand style at the Kennedy Center.  There is a
concert with the NSO.  $25-$35. 7pm.  Details 202-467-4600.

Submitted by Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:04 AM 11/1/96 GMT, Liviu wrote:

>I know this comes late, but here are some significant details, dug out
>from Held's "Hunyadi: Legend and Reality" [East European Monographs,
>Colombia University Press, 1985], suggesting that Laszlo Hunyadi's
>character might not have been so flawed as Eva has pictured it ;-)

        Thank you very much for digging this up for us.

>Held's account of the events, inserted almost ad literam between Eva's
>lines, is based entirely on primary sources.

        As far as I can ascertain here, basing my opinion on very few
sources for lack of an extensive library on this period, most of what Held
tells us has been known for a long time. At least I find most of the
information in Homan-Szekfu (published in the 1930s), 3:315ff. Although
there are a few details which are different. Homan doesn't mention about
Cilli's threat about the "two balls," but he certainly makes clear that
Cilli wanted to "ruin" the Hunyadi family and tried to blacken the name of
Janos accusing him of misappropriation of funds. Apparently the Hunyadi
children had to ask for a letter from the king promising that they wouldn't
not be punished for the deeds of their father.

>Actually, the king, accompanied by crusaders and Cilli's soldiers,
>was greeted with great respect; Laszlo Hunyadi waited for him at the
>gates and handed him the keys of the city. The king graciously
>accepted them and returned them to Laszlo, signifying that Belgrade
>was now entrusted to his care. About one hundred festive knights
>followed the king into the city. Behind them, the gates were suddently
>shut. As Hunyadi explained to the surprised king Hungary's laws
>forbade the entry of foreign troops into the fortresses of the
>frontier districts.

        That is correct, at least according to Homan, but he adds that
Laszlo was very much influenced by his uncle, Mihaly Szilagyi, and after his
return from Futak, he managed to convince him not to hand over the fort.
Homan also adds that all the accompanying 100 men were disarmed and that the
king and obviously Ulrik as well felt very threatened.

>Cilli, naturally frightened, suggested to the king that Laszlo Hunyadi
>was after his crown and the only way out of the trap was to kill him.
>The conversation was overheard and reported to Hunyadi. A council of
>Hunyadi's friends was called and they agreed to kill Cilli. The next
>day, while the king and Cilli went together to a mass, Cilli was
>called out, and an argument ensued betweem him and Laszlo Hunyadi.
>Both reached for their swords, and Cilli wounded his young rival. At
>this, the friends of Hunyadi, hiding in an adjoining room, ran out and
>Mihaly Szilagy cut off the head of the resisting count.

        Here there is quite a bit of difference between the two versions and
without extensive research I couldn't possibly decide which version is
correct. Homan mentions nothing about the conversation overheard between the
king and Ulrik. The attendance of the mass appears in both accounts, but
then there is substantial difference. According to Homan, Ulrik was ordered
to leave the chapel and go to "an important meeting." Armed men led him to a
room, where Hunyadi's men were waiting. Laszlo Hunyadi began asking Ulrik
about all his misdeeds as far as his family was concerned and during the
argument both pulled their swords. According to Homan, it was Laszlo wounded
Ulrik on his leg. Ulrik fell on his knees and Hunyadi's men fell upon him
and killed him. Upon hearing the news the 4,000 crusaders outside the city
walls loyal to Ulrik organized an armed uprising

>>The king himself became the captive of the Hunyadi party and
>> under duress he promised not to avenge his uncle's death and make Laszlo
>> Hunyadi captain-general of the country.
>
>The king was horrified and expected that his turn would be next, but
>Hunyadi tried to explain the reasons for the murder and asked for the
>king's pardon. The king accompanied Hunyadi to Temesvar, were, at a
>mass celebrated at the cathedral, he embraced Hunyadi's mother,
>proclaimed her his mother and her sons his brothers, and then he
>placed his hand on the sepulchre and swore that he would never revenge
>the Cilli's death.

        The above is exactly the same in Homan, with the exception that the
king remained in Belgrade for another five days. Homan doesn't say whether
on his own volition or he was detained there.

        My overall impression of Homan's account is that he tries to shift
the blame onto Mihaly Szilagyi, Laszlo's uncle who apparently had reasons to
hate Ulrik Cillei and Barankovics. In Homan's account it is Szilagyi who is
the moving force behind Laszlo's actions at Belgrade, who is influencing the
young man against the king and Cillei.

        My guess is that all modern historians, dealing with this incident,
consulted more or less the same sources. The question is emphasis: was
Laszlo's behavior in Belgrade any better than Laszlo V's behavior in
Temesvar or Buda. Laszlo V is normally portrayed as a weak young man--he was
only 17 years old, Laszlo Hunyadi was around 24--who could be easily
influenced. He is also portrayed as sly and insincere. The basic question is
whether there is a built-in bias in favor of Hunyadi and against Laszlo V in
the documents themselves. And here is where the historian comes into the
picture and his decision which sources he will treat seriously and which one
he will treat more cautiously.

        Held's book was written in 1985, Szakaly's in 1994, but it is
unlikely that Szakaly used Held. By the way, from what I gather there was no
monograph written on Laszlo Hunyadi between 1945 and 1968, at least not in
Hungary. However, Szakaly's terse account--less favorable than Homan's and
much less so than the short description of Gyorgy Szekely in Erik Molnar,
ed. *Magyarorszag tortenete,* 2 vols., 1964--resemble greatly other recent
accounts. For example, the paragraph dealing with the incident is described
as follows by Laszlo Makkai (Sugar-Hanak-Frank, A History of Hungary,
Bloomington, 1990):

        "In spite of promises to Hunyadi, the king named Ulrich Cillei chief
captain. Laszlo Hunyadi, the elder son of Janos, seemed to accept the new
commander, but on November 9, 1456 his men killed Cillei in Belgrade. The
king, virtually a prisoner of the Hunyadi party, promised amnesty. However,
as soon as he was able to act freely, he realized that his most influential
allies (such as Ujlaki) would not support the Hunyadis in the ensuing
political struggle. In March 1457 Ladislas [Laszlo V] had Laszlo Hunyadi and
his brother Matthias arrested; Laszlo was hurriedly tried and executed a few
days later. Hunyadi's widow, Erzsebet Szilagyi and her borther Mihaly, using
the enormous economic and human resources of the family, rose against the
king and his supporters. The young king fled to his Prague residence, taking
Matthias Hunyadi with him. On November 23, 1457 Ladislas Posthumus died, not
yet eighteen years old. According to rumors, he was poisoned."

        Honestly, one could write a mystery story about this, similar to the
one written by Richard II.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Correction:

>Honestly, one could write a mystery story about this, similar to the one
>written by Richard II.

        Of course, I meant "similar to the one written *about* Richard II.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:38 PM 10/31/96 -0500, Ferenc wrote, quoting me:

>>The last
>>time I saw Bank ban was 30 years ago. It was terrible then and I bet it
>>would be terrible now. The same is true about Laszlo Hunyadi. Poor Erkel
>>wasn't very talented.
>
>Now, Eva, who is being defensive?  Being ignorant about opera is no great
>sin.  There are millions of people in this country who don't know the
>difference between opera and operation.  For all we know, they could still be
>perfectly good historians or whatever.  I am sure Erkel doesn't care one whit
>about your unexpert opinion.

        I'm not a great fan of operas, with the exception of Mozart's, but
objectively speaking Erkel's operas have never made it in the "big wide
world," and the usual reason for such lack of general acceptance is lack of
real worth. Smetana, pretty much the contemporary of Erkel and from the same
region, also wrote on nationalistic themes and yet his work is quite well
known abroad. And if you mention the name "Smetana" to someone fairly well
versed in music will immediately know who he was. Try that with "Erkel."
There will be a blank stare.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: REQ: Do I need a visa? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

If you are a US citizen, then NO.
I do not know about Canada...maybe also the same.
You can enter for up to 3 mos as a tourist.
Peter Soltesz

On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Fade To Black wrote:

> Hello folks,
>
> I've been a huge admirer of hungarian culture for a long time.
> I'm thinking to visit budapest this winter.
> I'll stay there for a week.
> I got a korean diplomat passport.
>
> Do I need a visa?
> My trip purpose is a simple jouney
>
> Thanks.
> --
>             __          _       _
>        __| |       |   /  \    |      |[] - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - []
>    \__        | |       /      |   \   [] -*REMEMBER:Death is nature's way[]
>          \              _        |\    [] -* to  tell you to slow down.   []
>     _ ___/    |_    /        \  _    _|[] -*                              []
>
>      Stan 's web page : http://www.shef.ac.uk/students/pm/pma95ssk
>                 ======= E-Mail : ======
>        __~@   __~@           __~@        Run                   -----   __~@
>     _-\__<,_-\__<,        _-\__<,     for your life...       -----  _-\__<,
>    (*)/' ((*)/' (*)      (*)/' (*)                          -----  (*)/' (*)
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~
> * This sadness must go on -
>        From the late Van Gough's last word **
>
+ - VISA Requirements (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hungary

   US, Canadian, UK and Western European citizens do not need a visa.
   Australian and NZ passport holders can get 48 hour transit visas or
   30-day tourist visas on arrival by air or road but not by rail.
<><><><><><><>
+ - Re: Laszlo Hunyadi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:09 AM 11/1/96 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>I do not see what difference you was talking
>about, I think I was clear. So, either be more specific or leave me alone.
>I usually write my post early morning (2-3am), when I am tired and do not have
>time and energy for the 'comedy of misunderstandings'.

        Janos, please don't just try to act as if "language," "meaning"
weren't important. It is terribly important. If we are not precise the way
we express ourselves, we can't really communicate.  This is true in general
but it is especially true when our discussions go on in writing. There is no
way here to immediately correct a misstatement or a wrong word. There is no
way of softening the meaning with a smile or a wink.

        Please, face it, you were not precise in your wording. Liviu quite
rightly could question you on what you meant by "despite his national
origin." I questioned you on it as well. It sounds like: "well, I know he
wasn't a *real* Hungarian because his family or himself came from Wallachia
(Havasalfold), but heck, he is still a Hungarian national hero." And
something is wrong with this way looking at fifteenth-century history. I
would go even further: there is something very wrong with looking at the
Hunyadis this way even today. Let me give you an example. There is this
long-drawn out controversy over Matthias Corvinus's statue in
Cluj/Kolozsvar. There is Funar, the mayor of Cluj-Napoca, who is considered
to be the devil incarnate as far as the Hungarian minority of Transylvania
is concerned. He wants to place (or already did, I think) a
Romanian-language plaque on the statue. The Hungarians are outraged:
Matthias wasn't Romanian, he was a Hungarian. Yet, you say about his father
"despite his national origins" he is a Hungarian hero, then you should agree
with Funar that Matthias, his son, was also a Romanian.

        I really don't want to start a new controversy but there are a
couple of things to keep in mind about Matthias. Matthias spoke several
languages, but, if I recall properly, there is documentary evidence that he
didn't speak Romanian, although, of course, he immediately recognized the
Latin origin of the Romanian language, when some dignitaries arrived at his
court from Wallachia. The great "national" king as soon as he occupied
Vienna, moved, court and all, there, leaving good old Buda behind. So, what
I am trying to say is that it is very, very hard to make "national" heroes
out of these guys. They were just ambitious men who easily moved from one
country to the next, depending on their fortunes. As far as the statue of
Matthias in Cluj/Kolozsvar is concerned it would be nice if Romanians and
Hungarian could come to the only sensible conclusion: he was neither
Romanian nor Hungarian. He was a successful medieval king, a patron of arts,
and a man who managed to get to several thrones simply through his talent
and fortune and without the grace of God.

        Eva Balogh
+ - War Criminals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The following article was in the Record today.
--------------------

2 more war crimes suspects identified

The federal government has named the next two suspected Nazi collaborators
it wants to strip of their Canadian citizenships for hiding their activities
during the Second World War.

Documents filed Thursday in Federal Court identify the elderly men as
Ladislaus Csizsik-Csatary, 82, and Vladimir Katriuk, 75.  Katriuk lives in
the Montreal area and Csizsik-Csatary recently moved to Toronto from Montreal.

Federal Nazi hunters allege:

   --- Katriuk was a member of the Schuma 118 Police Battalion in Belaruss
and collaborated with Nazi authorities in Ukraine between 1942 and 1944,
participating in the commission of atrocities against civilians; and

   --- Csizsik-Csatary was a member of the Royal Hungarian Police and in
1944 was involved in the internment and deportation to concentration camps
of thousands of local Jews in what is now the Slovak Republic.

The Soviet news agency Tass reported in 1987 that Canada had ignored a
Soviet demand a year earlier that Katriuk "be made answerable" for his
wartime activities.  Tass said Katriuk's "personal participation in killing
360 Soviet citizens, burning down hundreds of houses, sending thousands of
Belarussian teenagers to hard labor camps was proved at trial."

Csizsik-Csatary's lawyer said in a letter filed in court that
Csizsik-Csatary recently moved to Toronto because his wife is ill and he
wants "the security of residing close to his family."

The men are the seventh and eigth suspected Nazi war criminals Ottawa has
started court action against in the past two years, though none of the cases
has yet been completed.

Justice Minister Allan Rock has pledged to start 12 cases by March.  Katriuk
and Csizsik-Csatary were notified in August that the government wants to
revoke their citizenship and both asked to have their cases tried in Federal
Court.

Ottawa must convince a judge that the suspects obtained their citizenship by
"false representations or fraud or by knowingly concealing material
circumstances."  If the men are stripped of their citizenships, Ottawa can
begin deportation proceedings against them.

---------30----------

I know many people who think that Canada should stop hunting for Nazi war
criminals.  They say that most of the suspects are very old and frail and
that most have lived a quiet, private life in Canada.  They say that society
has nothing to gain by these trials and deportations.

I disagree.  I think that there should be no law of limitation on war
criminals.

What do you think?  Should there be limitations on hunting Nazi war criminals?

Joe Szalai
+ - VISA and INFO about Hun (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Try      http://www.hungaryemb.org/      for that kind of information about
Hungary

attila

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