Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 445
Copyright (C) HIX
1995-10-01
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Where is the "call to arms"? (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Csurka (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
4 csurka meg egyszer (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
5 Hungarian/English prose (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
6 An attempt at translation (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
8 To the Club (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
9 Looking for partner to rent an apt. in Bp (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Romania (fwd) (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
11 Style (mind)  77 sor     (cikkei)
12 Elsoosorban talaan toobb informaacioot a szolgaaltataas (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Style (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
14 Dini: Let's get out of here (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
15 Question (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
16 To Eva Balogh: no, it wouldn't be stupid (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: To the Club (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
20 Lines: 36 (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
22 Another "Fencsik Bumerang"; Humboldt & Herrhausen (mind)  61 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Where is the "call to arms"? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Ms. Balogh: Who and where "called to arms" in '95? Prove it, or
admit that you lied. Or do neither, but in that case readers will
know you even better.
+ - Re: Csurka (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Regarding Gabor Fencsik's comments:

>The circumstances in his case were internment and interrogation, but no
>torture and no beatings.  Many people were subjected to far worse, and
>still behaved honorably.  Mr Antall did.  Istvan Eorsi did.  Istvan
>Angyal did.  Mr Goncz did.  Bela Szasz did.  Istvan Bibo did.  Mr Gimes
>and Mr Vasarhelyi did.  Many of these people were just as young and
>inexperienced as Csurka was at the time.  Some behaved despicably
>under the circumstances, and some did not.

Well, it's hard to compare these cases because we don't know if all
those people were called upon to sign on the dotted line.  Not all were.
Especially not those, whe were meant to be put to death in the first
place.

We also don't really know if some of those people Gabor listed were not
in fact recruited the same way Csurka was.  We only know about Csurka
because Antall was in the position to know about Csurka, but Csurka was
not about the others.  There are rumors, for instance, that Goncz
himself was a "rat" while in prison.

With all that said, I also think that Csurka's signing is nothing he
could be proud of, but I withold a more damning judgment of him until
some evidence is found that he did actually deliver on that signing.

Joe
+ - Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 (Alen Docef) wrote:
>
> 1994 CIA world factbook
> (http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/94fact/country/199.html)
> says:
>
> Romania
> Population: 23,181,415 (July 1994 est.)
> Ethnic divisions: Romanian 89.1%, Hungarian 8.9%
>
>
> Calculator (/usr/openwin/bin/calctool)
> says:
>
> 23181415 * 0.089 =~ 2.063 mil.
>
> Other sources are welcome.
>
> --
>
> Alen Docef
By going  to such extreme lengths to bring down the number of Hungarians living
on the  territory of present day Romania, you are revealing  the prevailing
genocidal tendencies of the present Romanian government.
 You don't need a calculator to conclude that the Hungarian
population of Romania is diminishing . This is exactly the point that what we
are
trying to make at the time of  with Mr. Iliescu's visit to US.

The present treatment of ethnic Hungarians by the Romanian
government is not a matter of arithmetic, but a question of
living up to a set of international standards and obligations.
What you are saying, is that bringing up this subject is wrong, because the
Romanian government is trampling the human rights of only 2.063 human
beings who happen to be Hungarians.
In human terms it is the quality of our despair  that counts, not
the census of the Ceasars.

Peter Kaslik
Hungarian Human Rights Monitor, Toronto
E-Mail:
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> email:            Digital Signal Processing Laboratory
> Phone (W): (404) 894-4813     School of Electrical and Computer Engineering
> Phone (H): (404) 873-0285                   Georgia Institute of Technology
> FAX:       (404) 894-8363                       ECE Van Leer Building C-449
> WWW: http://www.ee.gatech.edu/users/alen        Atlanta, GA 30332-0250, USA
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
+ - csurka meg egyszer (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

tamas wrote:
> >        - well, it is a carefully planted misconception (or let me be less
> >polite: a disgusting lie) that basically no one was "without sin", and
 anybody
> >with a halfway decent IQ can tell you who's political interest is to spread
 it
>  .
> >Actually, I have hard times keeping my temper when I hear it.  (But I'm stil
l

pannon wrote:

> Same here!  I used to live in a small town where almost everybody knew
> everybody else and we also knew who the few collaborators were.  And I
> don't mean collaborators who just went through the motions so they are
> left alone in a fairly decent standard of living, but the ones who made
> the lives of others deliberately miserable.  Most people knew who these
> were in their immediate environment.  What bothers the sense of justice
> of the majority is that the same people were allowed to stay on the top
> and convert their political power to even greater economic power.
> Any wonder people are letargic and cynical about the whole transition?
>
I really do understand your anger, but please remember the crimes that
were perpetuated by the communists in its  Communism for the "fight against
 fascists".
 Although you might be able to  differentiate which citizens of your
town truly collaborated and which didnt (but maybe not) Are you willing
to leave that choice to the politicians who have enemies of their own to
fight and many of who had collaborated in some way themselves? This  is a
very dangerous thing to do.
Obviously someone like csurka would never discriminate himself. he
would choose his unfortunate rivals as the "true communist collaborators".
dini metro-roland
+ - Hungarian/English prose (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Hugh,

You asked:

>What I'd be interested in knowing, perhaps from people who read regularly
>the FORUM and/or SZALON lists, is:  what are Messrs Pellionisz and Nemenyi
>like when they write in Magyar language?  And, if their style in English
>is a reflection of their style in Magyarul, what literary/journalistic
>tradition is it rooted in?  Or is it their unique discovery?
>
>Curiously,
>
>Hugh Agnew



With the exception of nonexistent words and wrong grammar the prose is pretty
much the same. So much so that most of the time I simply don't have the
patience to read the messages. I especially skip Mr. Pellionisz's harangues,
although here and there, when I see my name in passing and the word
"to:rte'ne'sz" (historian) going by, I perk up a bit to read the latest
insults.

Unfortunately, Hungarian prose writers could learn a bit from the much more
economical writing in English--fewer words, tighter constructions, logical
sequences of thought. I as a high school student in the 50's was never taught
to write properly. The Hungarian teacher thought that I was a born writer (at
one point I had illusions of becoming a writer--who doesn't who is interested
in literature?) and that was the end of it. Hardly any writing was required
at the University of Budapest and the few I wrote came back without any
comments. I actually learned to write properly in Canada and in the United
States, mostly from my professors in the history department at Carleton
University and at Yale. Since I had to learn the art of writing as an adult I
became very conscious of bad prose, and I spent countless hours commenting on
student essays lacking what I considered clear and concise prose.

There is especially a huge gap between journalistic writing in English and in
Hungarian. I must admit that I am partial to the former, and I get quite
indignant when I read articles which are quite incomprehensible for anyone
not totally familiar with the Hungarian political scene or read interviews
where it is not clear who is the man/woman is who is being interviewed
(sometimes not even the name is given). So, all in all, the most elementary
conventions of journalism are being flaunted in Hungary.

Have all of you have a good week without me. I am off tomorrow morning to
Indiana.

Eva Balogh
+ - An attempt at translation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Norma,

I am not a "historian of early Hungarian literature" but I don't have much
trouble with the first line:

>Petroczi Istvan kuldgje Revai Ersebetnek

with the exception of the "g" in the word "kuldgje" instead of "kuldje"
although of course it might be just an old way of spelling the word "send."
"Istvan Petroczi sends [this poem, I guess] to Erzsebet Revai."

The second sentence is a bit more complicated:

>Revai Ersebet vigastalja o haitassal tellyes urat

"vigas[z]talja" = comforts

"o haitas[sal]" might be "ohajta's" = wish
"tellyes" = "teljes"? = complete?

Erzsebet Revai consoles her lord with a wish? Does this make sense? But I
can't quite figure out what it means "teljes ur" since "complete lord"
doesn't make a lot of sense.

Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On 30 Sep 1995 Peter@.MISSING-HOST-NAME. wrote:

> What you are saying, is that bringing up this subject is wrong, because the
> Romanian government is trampling the human rights of only 2.063 human
> beings who happen to be Hungarians.

There is a fine line between 'human rights' and a minority demanding more
than it is due.
A lot of this fuss may be the result of an overeaction of the Romanian
legislature, when faced with an escalation of Hungarian demands - some
legitimate and some not.
Issue, that time, patience and common sense will not fail to remedy !
> In human terms it is the quality of our despair  that counts, not
> the census of the Ceasars.

In human terms, I wonder, how does the quality of your despair fare when
compared to those of other minorities, in Indonesia, Irak, Serbia, or
last but not least, to the squalarous discrimination faced by native
americans in many a reservation ?

> Peter Kaslik
> Hungarian Human Rights Monitor, Toronto

m. cristian
+ - To the Club (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Agnew:

Mea Maxima Culpa! You were right. This is an  exlusive
Club for the correct English compositions and  grammar.
Please forgive my views and poor English.
I retreat under my Stone......
Or, do you think if I upgrade my English, I could gain
acceptance for occasional arguments, and.......I could
crawl out to the light...or it is out of the question?

Best Regards to the Club: NPA.
+ - Looking for partner to rent an apt. in Bp (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sorry if this is a wrong newsgroup for such postings...

I look for a companion to rent an apartmnet together in Budapest from
January, 1996. If you are interested, want know detaild etc., please
write me directly to:


Anatoly
+ - Re: Romania (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Well said Darren....and thank you Dr. Pauer for capturing the fascination
of a "rural American"!
Regards, Adam


Brooklyn, NY, USA
+ - Style (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hugh Agnew asks:
> what are Messrs Pellionisz and Nemenyi like when they write in Magyar
> language?  And, if their style in English is a reflection of their style in
> Magyarul, what literary/journalistic tradition is it rooted in?

Current Hungarian political journalism has its roots in the fiery,
impassionate style of Endre Ady. Before him, the most effective style in
political writing was really poetry, and in the hands of Vo2ro2smarty,
Peto3fi, and Arany, nearly all poetry was political. Ady was of course one
of the greatest poets of Hungarian ever, but his poetic style was too unique
to have a following (in fact all young poets after him had to struggle hard
not to sound like epigoni), while his journalistic style defined the whole
tradition. This body of work is required reading for anyone interested in
Hungarian journalistic style just as Victor Hugo would be for the French.
For those like Hugh who have no Hungarian, the next best thing is perhaps
Kierkegaard, who has the same incredible sense of prose rhythm and the same
passion for truth as Ady.

As a result, political journalism in Hungary is highly emotional, so
Pellionisz and Neme1nyi should be forgiven for the occasional emotionally
charged appeal.  The cooler, more reserved, cerebral style of political
writing is really reserved for essays, and the great Hungarian masters of
that genre take their cues not from Ady but from Sze1chenyi, whose language
has aged very badly (it is rather painful for a speaker of contemporary
Hungarian to read anything from the Age of Reform) but whose reasoning is
crystal clear. La1szlo1 Ne1meth and Istva1n Bibo1 are good examples of this
more scholarly style.  Today it is La1szlo1 Lengyel, Ja1nos Kiss, and
Gyo2rgy Konra1d who fit most comfortably in this tradition (especially Kiss,
writing the most wooden prose anyone can imagine), with Istva1n Eo2rsi and
TGM with more passion but somewhat less willingness to think issues through.
Pe1ter Esterha1zy, one of the most brilliant stylists in Hungarian
literature, actually prefers to write political essays in a style neither
very emotional nor very cerebral. This reserved, ironic, middle of the road
style has its roots in a tradition of wise men from Ka1lma1n Miksza1th,
Gyula Kru1dy, and Lajos Nagy, but has much less of a readership than the
more emotional stuff.

Just like Dezso1 Szabo1 and Istva1n Csurka before them, Pellionisz and
Neme1nyi follow a stylistic pattern created by a flaming left-winger, Endre
Ady, who would have absolutely no sympathies with their brand of
nationalism.  While Csurka writes reasonably well (see sample attached at
the end of this message), Dezso3 Szabo1 was not quite able to assume Ady's
mantle, and his babbling incoherence is the closest thing to Pellionisz' and
Neme1nyi's save-the-nation posturing that I can think of. Certainly one
should not expect them to show any respect for reason or even for decency.
Were it not for all the bad long-term effects that A1kos Ro1na-Tas
summarized in his essay on the paradox of the PgDn key, I would feel content
to leave them alone and let them babble as they will.  But unfortunately
there are some bad long-term effects, so it is better to hold up a mirror to
them time and again, and I offer the following quote in the same spirit.

Andra1s Kornai

> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Mindennek ellene1re, ba1rmennyire furcsa1nak tu3nik is, makula1tlanul
tiszta vila1gne1zettel, hittel sza1lltam le a csabai gyorsro1l, mely
visszahozott szu2lo3va1rosomba. Annak ellene1re felte1tel ne1lku2l hittem a
szocializmusban, mint egyetlen lehetse1ges emberi e1letforma1ban, hogy
mindent, ami ko2ru2lvett, elutasi1tottam. Be1ke1sen, ahonnan jo2ttem, 1949
uta1n egy pillanatig sem lehetett jo1zan, e1rtelmes, norma1lis embernek
abban a hitben ringato1znia, hogy ami to2rte1nik, az jo1. Elkezdo3do2tt a
ne1ha1ny e1vvel elo3bb fo2ldho2z juttatott parasztok sanyargata1sa. A
ko2rnyezetemben nem volt egyetlen csala1d, akit ne e1rt volna valami
se1relem. Kito3l ezt vette1k el, kito3l azt.  Vagyont, e1letet,
szabadsa1got, o2nbecsu2le1st. S e1n me1gis hittem az eszme1ben, a tiszta
eszme1ben. Ma ma1r tudom, mie1rt. Nem is tehettem ma1ske1nt.  Fel kellett
volna ko2tno2m magam, ha me1g ennek az egyetlen vila1g-elrendezo3 elvnek a
szentse1ge1ben, igazsa1ga1ban sem hiszek. Annak ellene1re nem tartottam
teha1t magam sem oszta1lyellense1gnek, sem reakcio1snak, hogy minden
idegsza1lammal ki1va1ntam, hogy mine1l elo3bb mu1ljon el ne1pem felo3l ez a
bu3nteto3 istencsapa1s, e1s pusztuljanak el azok, akik az iga1t a nyaka1ba
akasztotta1k. So3t, mindezek ellene1re ko2rmo2nfont o2ne1letrajzaim utolso1
mondatai hitelesek voltak, e1s szi1vbo3l jo2vo3en o3szinte1k.  A
szocializmusra e1s a dolgozo1 magyar ne1p szolga1lata1ra esku2dtem ezekben a
mondatokban. Esku2szego3 ma sem vagyok, nem olyan fa1bo1l faragtak."

(Istva1n Csurka, U1j I1ra1s 1975/8)
+ - Elsoosorban talaan toobb informaacioot a szolgaaltataas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

politikaarool ees kultuuraarool

Kooszoonoom
+ - Re: Style (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article > you write:

> Today it is La1szlo1 Lengyel, Ja1nos Kiss, and
>Gyo2rgy Konra1d who fit most comfortably in this tradition (especially Kiss,
>writing the most wooden prose anyone can imagine), with Istva1n Eo2rsi and
>TGM with more passion but somewhat less willingness to think issues through.
>Pe1ter Esterha1zy, one of the most brilliant stylists in Hungarian
>literature, actually prefers to write political essays in a style neither
>very emotional nor very cerebral.

These are pretty interesting observations.  I am curious though ...
where would you put Jozsef Debreczeni's style?

As to that quote from Csurka, well ... who wouldn't have a few writings
like that in some closet?  Especially those who made their living with
the pen.  Is it much worse than all the "correct" answers we gave in the
the "Scientific Socialism" (Tud Szoc) courses at the university in
essays or verbal exams?  How many of us really meant it then?

Last year, when I visited back in Hungary at my mother, browsing among
the old papers, I discovered a copy of my written application for
permission to travel to the West on an IBUSZ tour.  This was written to
my work place's personnel manager who also happened to be the local
Party secretary.  Guess what?  I lied my head off in that application
by writing what I thought they wanted to read so I can finally visit at
least Vienna!  Well, even that didn't do the trick because the personnel
chief had "rat" in the office who promptly informed him about every
comment anybody made that could be construed as "alien" to the socialist
system.  So eventually I had to join the "Koper Swim Club" to get out of
that worker's paradise.  (Any other members of that Club here? ;-)

So I don't think much of writings like the one quoted from Csurka.  Who
knows? -- he may have also had a visit to the West in mind at that time
and that was the price.

BTW, what ever happened to that lustration committee of judges that
caused such an uproar with their revelation that they already found a
few former agents among the MPs?  I always wonder if any of those were
among the chorus damning Csurka for "signing."  So don't tell me about
Csurka until we are not allowed to find out about the other signers,
many of whom actually delivered on their signatures.

Joe Pannon
+ - Dini: Let's get out of here (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

(Dini: Let's get out of here)

        Dear Dini,
        I think you misunderstood part of the posting including its intended
logic of moving from a specific question to a very general one.  It might be
my fault.  I won't post an answer because by now the list must be completely
fed up with the subject.  Let's get out of here; if you are still interested,
please send me a mail, and I am willing to continue the discussion in private.

        Cheers,

        Tamas Toth
+ - Question (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

(Question)

        For the record:
        - I am also not a fan of Mr. Whatshisname.
        - I would also prefer no demonstration (rebellion, uprising, call to
arms, pick one) on Oct. 23 because I'm afraid of things going awry and afraid
of bloodshed.  Actually, I am exactly as much  afraid of planted agent
provocateurs as of people incited by Mr. Whatshisname's rhetoric.
        - I often stated (granted, mostly on FORUM, but you can cross-check
it if you wish) that I am quite comfortable with having a wide variety of
views around, confronted in fierce but civilized arguments.  As a matter of
fact, if I am afraid of anything at all, it is a homogenous world.  However,
I have admittedly a sweet spot in my heart for views that are held consis-
tently over an extended period of time.

        Having stated that, I have a question.  A genuine one, because I
really don't know the answer.  Also, it is a generic, a "philosophical" one,
directed to those who argue that the only democratic way to replace the
government is to vote correspondingly in the 1998 elections.
        Here it is: what was your stand taken in public years ago, during
the famous "taxis-sztrajk" and the "hosszu, forro osz" when a crisis was
provoked with the explicitely stated goal of forcing the government to resign?

        Tamas Toth
+ - To Eva Balogh: no, it wouldn't be stupid (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

(To Eva Balogh: no, it wouldn't be stupid)

        Dear Eva,
Quote from your latest posting, addressed to Zoltan Szentesi:
>>People are often afraid of being fired due to privatization or a new
>>order from the government which may ruin the firm they work for.

>Why would privatization ruin the firm? Wouldn't it be stupid of the new owner
>to spend quite a bit of money on purchasing the company and then sit down and
>ruin it?

        Watch out, Eva, because remarks like that may put a question mark
to the validity of other statements of yours related to economy.
It is an everyday business practice to buy up (in Hungary right now
read: "privatize") a firm and then ruin it in order to eliminate (at least
part of the) competitors.  If you have enough capital, this may make perfect
business sense and it is such a common practice here in the US, where we both
live, that it is really hard *not* to recognize it.
        How big of a danger it is in present day Hungary, I don't know, but
if someone came along and tried to convince me too loudly that "it cannot
happen there, trust me", it would automatically raise my attention and
suspicion.  In principle it can happen.  Also, since you *must* have
sufficient capital (or at least good access to credits), which is usually
much more characteristic to the typical Western investor, the "buy him up
and ruin him" scenario is much more of a danger for the firms that are
privatized by a foreigner.  (Clearly, this "ruining" doesn't have to be
overt, nor has it to happen overnight; you may want to be more cautious and
extend the process over a few years, for several reasons, among others in
order to avoid bad PR.)
        Of course there are Western companies, which really want to do
business, and since there is already sufficient concentration of capital in
some hands in Hungary as well, such a "malevolent privatization" can happen
completely inside the country, too.  But overall speaking it is much more of a
danger when the buyer is not Hungarian.  There is nothing wrong with giving
a very hard look to those deals.  There is nothing "nationalistic" about it,
particularly not in any pejorative sense.  Just the opposite: if someone fails
to check them closely from this point of view as well, in my mind he or she
acts against *vital interests* of the country.  And this is not just an
empty slogan.
        Maybe our friends living in Hungary have something to add to this
topic.

        Tamas Toth
+ - Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Anyway, for some obscure reasons, the Hungarians from USA and Canada seem
>seem to despair orders of magnitude more than those from Transylvania.

Just what do you think it is that we want that the Hungarians of
Transylvania, such as those represented by UDMR, don't?
Why, do you think, those Hungarian students from Transylvania, set out
on a long bicycle tour to Strassbourg to present their grievances there
in person?

Joe Pannon
+ - Re: To the Club (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Look, Mr. Nemenyi, I don't pretend to understand what's going on in
Hungary at the moment. I've never set foot in the place and I don't speak
the language. But I am a native English speaker and I make a decent living
writing in English. And I can assure you that many of your posts have been
nearly unintelligible. If I could suggest a cure for your problem, it
would be to shorten your sentences and use smaller words. Your posts read
like they've been written with a thesaurus in hand.

I've read enough posts here to know that Eva Balogh bends over backwards
to be as polite as possible, even to those who spew out the majority of
the venom aimed at her. I think in this instance you'd be well-advised to
take her criticism to heart. You are not currently getting your message
across to your English-only readers because they can't understand what
you're saying.

P.S. -- Cut the lady some slack. I was under the impression that Hungarian
men were, on the whole, gentlemen.

Sam Stowe
+ - Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In > Peter 
(Peter Kaslik) writes:

>By going  to such extreme lengths to bring down the number of Hungarians
living
>on the  territory of present day Romania, you are revealing  the prevailing
>genocidal tendencies of the present Romanian government.
> You don't need a calculator to conclude that the Hungarian
>population of Romania is diminishing.

Could you back this assertion with some hard data?
While you're at it, you might want (or maybe not :-) to post some
data about the dynamics of the Romanian population in Hungaria during
the same period.

>This is exactly the point that what we are
>trying to make at the time of  with Mr. Iliescu's visit to US.

Then, you are wasting your time.
>
>The present treatment of ethnic Hungarians by the Romanian
>government is not a matter of arithmetic, but a question of
>living up to a set of international standards and obligations.

Could you also post the list of international standards and obligations
that weren't respected by the Romanian government, WRT to Hungarians
(and/or other minorities)?  The representants of various international
organizations who came in Romania to investigate this matter couldn't
find anything wrong.  But maybe you know more.

>What you are saying, is that bringing up this subject is wrong, because the
>Romanian government is trampling the human rights of only 2.063 human
>beings who happen to be Hungarians.

Yet another assertion that has to be backed with hard data.

>In human terms it is the quality of our despair  that counts, not
>the census of the Ceasars.

The quality of your despair is completely irrelevant as long as you don't
provide the hard facts which caused it.

Anyway, for some obscure reasons, the Hungarians from USA and Canada seem
seem to despair orders of magnitude more than those from Transylvania.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email: 
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland
+ - Lines: 36 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

References: > 
            >
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Date:         Sat, 30 Sep 1995 19:55:03 -0400
Reply-To:     Hungarian Discussion List >
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From:         Alexander Bossy >
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Subject:      Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting
To:           Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >

Peter Kaslik ) wrote:

: By going  to such extreme lengths to bring down the number of Hungarians
: living
: on the  territory of present day Romania, you are revealing  the prevailing
: genocidal tendencies of the present Romanian government.

        The present neo-communist government of Romania can fairly be
accused of many things.  But, genocide is not one of them.  Genocide
isn't simple trampling of minority rights (to whatever extent).  It is a
policy of mass murder of a people as a people.  Let us remember
that the word was coined to describe what the Nazis did to the
Jews: they sent out death squads to murder civilians indiscriminately.
And, when that didn't prove efficient enough for them, they created
full-scale factories of death: the death camps.
        Hungarians in Romania ARE NOT being driven into death camps.  They
are not being slaughtered by death squads.  Therefore, your use of the term
genocide cheapens it, and makes certain that moderates like me are turned
off of your whole argument, thus limiting any potential possitive effect
that you could have.

: In human terms it is the quality of our despair  that counts, not
: the census of the Ceasars.

        And the real "despair" of Romania's Hungarian minority relates to
questions of language and culture.  It isn't one of Rwanda-like (i.e.,
genocidal) slaughter.  Keep a focus on the problems, and don't pretend
that they are so much worse than they really are.

        Alexander
+ - Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter  (Peter Kaslik) wrote:

>What you are saying, is that bringing up this subject is wrong, because the
>Romanian government is trampling the human rights of only 2.063 human
>beings who happen to be Hungarians.

You are mistaken, my friend! Mr. Iliescu's regime is not "trampling
the human rights of only 2.063 [million] human beings who happen to be
Hungarians", but on the human rights of over 23 million human beings
who happen to be citizens of Romania.

The recent Articles 205 and 206 of the Romanian Penal Code, by which
the freedom of speech, freedom of expression and the freedom of the
press have been, for all practical purposes, legally outlawed is a
flagrant violation of the human rights of all Romanian citizens
regardless of their ethnicity, sex or religion.

Dorin Taranul
+ - Another "Fencsik Bumerang"; Humboldt & Herrhausen (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

As all his attempts at debating real issues backfired, he does "what
he does best": resorts to name calling and mud slinging. In general,
I will not dignify his pitiful provocations with answers - except to
show once in a while that even in mud slinging he is laughably
incompetent. This is his latest "hit" (on his own face; too bad that
he uses bumerangs for ad hominem attacks):

Less important, I am pretty sure he wanted to use the expression
"egghead" to address an academic. He slipped; used "skinhead" instead.
(Looks the same outside but totally different inside; "A mi fejunk
korulbelul egyforma" - "Korul igen, de belul nem"). Never mind the slip,
English is not his mother tongue either! (On the other hand,
Mr. Fencsik's Hungarian must be pretty bad; does not dare taking part
in Forum-debates!)

More important, as he brings up my Humboldt Prize repeatedly, I can't
help letting this bumerang "get back to the sender" teaching him a
little lesson.

I was not surprised at all that in "Forum" (read exclusively by Hungarians
as that list is written "in our machine code"), hardly anyone knew what
"Humboldt Prize" is, and how it is quite different from "Humboldt Fellowship".
Thus, many thought over there that I was recipient of that rather
easy-to-get junior Fellowship, quite common also among Hungarian students
(Fellowship has the upper age limit of 35). However, as at least some
readers of "Hungary" are Americans, they are able to tell not only eggheads
from skinheads, but also junior Fellowship recepients from winners of the
"Alexander von Humboldt Prize for Distinguished American Scientist".
(No age limit on the latter, it goes only to a select few, and to Americans
only [thus most Hungarians don't even know]. I received it at age 46,
in 1989).

What is relevant about this topic (in conjunction with our debate here
about a "lack of a 'Marshall Plan'" for East Europe) that the Humboldt
PRIZE was specifically established as a "gesture to thank America for
their original Marshall Plan". Since I stayed the "compulsory" 6 months
visit, that comes with the Prize, to Germany in 1990, there was much
conversation at that time in Germany about Herr Adolf Herrhausen
(President of Deutsche Bank), who put forward (also to IMF) a German
"Marshall Plan" for East Europe. Needless to say, his plan ran head-to-
head against plans of IMF for East Europe! Fact is, Herrhausen was bombed
into pieces on 30 Nov.1989, less than a week before a New York meeting
where he was to amplify on his plans.  ARD German TV claimed on 1st
of July, 1992 in a special program "Im Brennpunkt" that Herrhausen was
murdered because his plan for East Europe crossed the opposite IMF plans.
Helga Zepp in fact filed suit on the 2nd of April, 1992 in this matter.

I know the homework (to distinguish names "Endrey" and "Pellionisz") is
not due back yet, but I would already like to alert the student
about an impending next lesson. It will be a bit more difficult task:
names "Zepp" and "Pellionisz" will have to be distinguished! (A rather
hard puzzle for Fencsik to sort out, since 3 letters [out of only 4!]
in Ms. Zepp's name can also be found in Pellionisz).

Fortunately, Ms. Balogh is here to second her junior SZDSZ (liberal Party)
partner; Mr. Fencsik, and will undoubtedly rush to help out if he
is in deep trouble again. But who knows? Maybe Mr. Fencsik is quite
competent, has a Humboldt Prize, Kossuth Dij, or equivalent(s).

Or some SZDSZ "agit prop" decoration ["Dirtiest in Mud Slinging"]
at the least.

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