Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 790
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-09-15
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Hungarhotels (mind)  121 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Mobil telephones (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: To J.Szalai (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Shock therapy (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: To J.Szalai (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Hungarhotels (mind)  92 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Hungarhotels (mind)  67 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: *** HUNGARY *** #789 (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Jackson in Budapest (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: To All: (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
12 Hungarian Folk Music Concerts By Ghymes Ensemble @ Ada, (mind)  60 sor     (cikkei)
13 Ikarusz, formerly HungarHotels (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: 1956 (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Funar - the cold truth (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: To All: (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: 1956 (mind)  68 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Hungarhotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

With some delay, after the latest acquisition from the Southern
Hemisphere flu season, I am following up on some issues:

Charles Vamossy wrote:
>
>At 11:36 AM 9/6/96 +1000, you wrote:
>> From: Charles M. Vamossy >
>>> George Anthony wrote:
>>>
>  The fact that he [PM Horn] chose to
>wait until it was publicly announced implies to me that he was more
>interested in popular reaction than good business.

Quite possibly.  As a politician, he has to balance the two.


>Again, I see your point...  Far be it from me to suggest that Hungary is
the
>only country where such things occur.  Couple points, though:  1.  this
deal
>was very much a "done deal", publicly announced by the Government Agency
in
>charge.

Well, a "done deal" is really done when a contract is signed.  Otherwise,
we can only talk about degrees of "donness".

>2.  Hungary's budget depended (and depends) highly on income from
>privatization, much more than the US or Australia.  PM Horn placed high
>priority on the program's success.  It would seem, therefore, that bad
>publicity stemming from poor management of the process would have far
more
>disastrous effect on Hungary.

I am still to see evidence of lasting damage done, as opposed to
documented
cases of negative publicity.  As I argued, the PM's intervention sent a
dual message whose other part was that foreigners are expected to pay a
reasonable price for Hungarian assets.

>>This is a rather derogatory treatise of the Hungarian legal system,
>>probably stemming from lack of information.  The Hungarian legal
>>tradition is of strict case law
                         ^^^^
This is wrong, I should have written "code" law, if this is the
right legal term, meaning that codified law is the main, if not only,
guide for judges.

, with very little scope for the effective
>>lawmaking capacity of courts or judges in Anglo-Celtic countries.
>>Hence, in Hungary the Parliament makes the law and the courts just
>>act on it.  Only the Constitutional Court that has the power to
>>rule on the legality of legislation, but they would not be
>>involved in commercial litigation.
>
>It was exactly the Constitutional Court I was making reference to by
>bringing up the Compensation Plan.  Given the self serving laws passed
by
>Parliament and upheld by that court,

It would appear that you have been too imbued with US legal concepts
to appreciate the differences between the legal systems.  What the
Hungarian Constitutional Court can decide is merely whether a new law
complies with the Constitution, not whether they, or anyone else, find
it palatable or not.

>what chance would a foreign businessman
>have in the lower commercial Courts?  Possibly, if he was clearly
swindled
>or his property was stolen, he might make his case, but in this case, I
am
>sure he would have not a prayer.

This has nothing to do with it.  If there has been a breach of law, the
litigation has a good chance, otherwise it has not.

However, the US company has not sued in the US either.  This is something
that has been done in not dissimilar cases (Cuba, e.g.,), and given the
quirkiness of the US legal system they may well have found a sympathetic
judge to award them a few billion dollars' worth of damages against the
Hungarian PM.  Not paying up, the latter could be subject to another
court
order of arrest on entry to the US, so there would be ways of
considerably
inconveniencing him.


>>But, as evidenced by recent developments, the whole aggro did not
>>prevent other suitors from offering a higher price for the assets.

>You have to wonder, though, how many businessmen with any particular
>attachment to Hungary by virtue of their birth passed up bidding on
deals
>based on the negative publicity.

I am beyond wonderment, I would like to see evidence.  Just as I argued
before, such events are commonplace enough not to make Hungary
exceptional. Anyone radically changing their bidding policy on the basis
of this single case are deluding themselves about the safety of the
alternatives.

>  I wonder if he sometimes thinks about his role as a member of the
>Kadar regime in attracting and building up the 19 billion dollar debt...

Quite possibly, as he is trying now to pay it back, with some success.

>Those were the days, my friend, we thought they'd never end...

But they did with a bang, and it looks like Horn is the wiser for it
now.  Other politicians and political parties in Hungary are at much
earlier sections of the learning curve.

>BTW, as I wrote you privately, I enjoy your thoughtful and well reasoned
>arguments, even if I also take some measure of satisfaction in
presenting
mine.

As I wrote you privately, I appreciate your sentiments.  Likewise, I am
looking forward to reading more of your arguments.

George Antony
+ - Re: Mobil telephones (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva...very interesting statistics. But why do you find the use of mobile
telephones (even at those prices) surprising??? Telecom is the number one
requirement probably next to roads for any industrial society in this age.
The fact is that even though Matav has managed to significantly reduce
the waiting time for phones they are way far (by eons) from what a modern
telephone company in the west can provide. For example, in the USA one can
call the phone company and the next day can get service (for sure within
a week) almost anywhere in the country!
Peter Soltesz

On Fri, 13 Sep 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

>         Another interesting piece of information. In Hungary of 10 million
> inhabitants, there are approximately 350,000 mobil telephones in use. The
> use of these telephones is expensive. During weekdays, between 7 am and 6 pm
> one minute costs 39.80Ft (that is eight times as much as an ordinary
> telephone call of one-minute duration). In addition, there is monthly fee of
> anything between 2,100 and 6,900Ft, depending on the provider and the extent
> of the service.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>
+ - Re: To J.Szalai (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Zsargo Janos At 04:45 AM 9/14/96 +0200, you wrote in response to J.Szalai:
>
Begin J. Sz.:
>>A Happy New Year so we might understand each other better in the >>future.And
y
> K.
>>Happy Rosh Hashanah, Andy, and all!
>>Joe Szalai

Zsargo Ur begins:
>
>Heeee, elftars! What is this 'elhajlas' (deviation) from the
>PC hardline ?! No complains about the religion-related good
>wishes, no jokes about Moses (you know like last Christmas).
>Ejnye, bejnye!
>J.Zs
>PS: I don't mind any kind of good-wishes on this list, I thought
>you do.

I have seen Tacky in my days Zsargo "Ur?" - but this is the tackiest of
all.... and the "childishest"  too...

Aniko
+ - Re: Shock therapy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:01 PM 9/13/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>At 04:54 PM 9/13/96 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:

>So, if in both cases the poor suffers the most, wouldn't it be better
>>if at least, due to the quicker recovery, the poor would get out of its
>>plight faster? As opposed to this dragged-out, hopeless economic situation
>>which exists right now.
>
>This is a trick question, Eva.  You're asking me if I favour Hungary
>changing over to capitalism quickly or slowly.  Well...., gees, what can I
>say?  Maybe if nitrous oxide was freely available on all street corners a
>quick changeover could be accommodated.

        No, this is not a trick question. This is a question based on
reality. Whether you personally like it or not, Hungary is moving over to
free-market economy, capitalism, if you wish. It does so, because it became
obvious that the economic structure of "existing socialism" was not viable.

>Along with the changeover to free market capitalism, watch the erosion of
>women's rights.  Many social programmes benefited women and families.
>They'll be the first to go.  Maternity benefits have already been reduced,
>haven't they?  And how affordable will nurseries and day care be?  Young
>couples will not be able to afford to have children, or, if they do, the
>woman will likely pass on a career.  Hasn't there been a lot of
>retrenchement on women's rights in Poland?

        Now, here you try to appeal to my feminist sentiments. But it won't
work because I *am* a realist. You cannot give away what you don't have.
Hungary in the last sixteen or so years was giving away money it didn't
have. So, instead of unrealistic expectations, why don't you just
concentrate on reality.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: To J.Szalai (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 04:45 AM 9/14/96 +0200, Zsargo Janos wrote:

<snip>
>Heeee, elftars! What is this 'elhajlas' (deviation) from the
>PC hardline ?! No complains about the religion-related good
>wishes, no jokes about Moses (you know like last Christmas).
>Ejnye, bejnye!

It just goes to show you that I'm more of a free thinker than you've
imagined.  Besides, I wish people, "Happy New Year".  I just don't wish
anyone a "Merry Christmas" because I don't observe religious days.  And
what's this bullshit about me being a PC hardliner?  I'm not.  All I said on
the "PC" issue was that you shouldn't use offensive terms when referring to
groups of people, and if you do, that you could expect at least a verbal
knee in the crotch from me.  You're free to say what you want, and I'm free
to respond.  One of us will eventually give up.  And it won't be me.  By the
way, I've noticed that you've cleaned up your language.  I guess your
American experience did some good for you.  Good!

>PS: I don't mind any kind of good-wishes on this list, I thought
>you do.

In that case, and so that I don't forget, Happy Halloween on October 31st.

Joe Szalai

P.S.  What is October 23 called in Hungary?  And please don't tell me it's
called "szerda".
+ - Re: Hungarhotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi, Peter!

At 21:52 07/09/96 -0400, you wrote:
>In response to Johanne's & Zoli's comments on my comments on
>Parliamentary systems (in poart) I would like to amplify my bone of
>contention. While I do understand that Parliamentary systems allow at times
>that the law makers are also the executors of the law, I have a real
>problem with those officials in the gov't who also own, directly or
>indirectly, businesses (consulting or otherwise) that are in conflict of
>interest. In fact, I do not believe that there is a requirement, such as
>we have in the states,  about full disclosure and blind trusts. Thus,
>there is
>a lot of hanky p[anky going on which shgould not be permitted.

Gotcha! I think your last posting to which I was responding actually
mentioned both factors - on the one hand that a Minister of
Telecommunications, for example, who proposed a new law might also be a
member of Parliament that would vote on that law. And the lack of controls
on ownership which might amount to regulation of industries and businesses
in which the members of Parliament might be shareholders. Unfortunately I
think it holds just as true in the West as in Hungary that the problem with
hiring the regulators from the regulated industries always runs the risk of
conflicts on the part of the regulators. Yet, the other alternative is to
have regulators who are not knowledgeable about the industries they are
regulating. This is not exactly the same thing as conflicts on the part of
the legislators, I realize. However, it sounds like the Hungarhotels deal
was not something that was shot down by the Parliament but was shot down by
Gyula Horn personally. And that is not something that would be dealt with by
regulation, unless his power to shoot down such a deal was taken away or
modified.

Secondly, regardless of the reason behind what Horn did, if I got the gist
of the previous posts back and forth correctly, it sounds like he made the
right decision, in the sense that the price that was eventually obtained
from those hotels was much better than the original offer.

So, although the complaint about conflicts being allowed to subsist due to
the lack of disclosure requirements and so on may be valid, I am not so sure
that it has any relevance to the present issue.

Secondly, I am not so sure that you can *ever* eliminate such *conflicts.*
You could elect a professor who owns no stock, and he might be biased in
favour of assistance to educational institutions. You could hire a factory
worker, and he might favour unions. I am saying that a person's background
may induce him to have a certain perspective on issues, that could be
considered just as much a conflict as ownership of stock would. Why is it
that only a monetary interest is considered to represent a conflict of
interest?

Maybe the best solution is in public accountability. Those legislators will
still have to account to the voters, and if they are not good legislators,
the measures they enact will not be in the public's best interest regardless
of anything else. Also, I think it would be difficult to craft a piece of
legislation that would effectively assist one segment of the business
community and not another. Unless restrictions were put in against one
segment of that community, for example, *foreign* businessmen. For example,
here in Nova Scotia, when the government about 20 years ago wanted to
encourage Michelin Tire to build three plants in the province, they passed a
bill which specified that if the workers wanted to organize a union, they
would have to get approval for the union in all three plants. Of course, the
government did not acknowledge publicly that the bill was intended to assist
Michelin, but everybody knows that was the intention, and the statute is
called the *Michelin law.*
>
>I beleivet hat Mr. Vamossy's comments, which I agreed with, imply perhaps
>that there was (is) no level playing field for businessmen, such as, in
>Hungarohotels (et al). I think it is a very serius issue that concerns me
>and I am sure many other businessmen who deal with Hungary (or its
>present and previous gov'ts).

The only way to prevent an unlevel playing field is to get the government
out of the field of regulating altogether, and then other factors will apply
- such as monetary wealth, geographic location, and so on - which will also
serve to *unlevel* the playing field.

BTW, it is all a question of whose ox is being gored. For example, many
Hungarians might prefer to see Hungarian businesses favored in such a
buy-out. This may be a perfectly legitimate consideration, but acceptance of
a Hungarian consortium's bid may result in a lower price being realized than
acceptance of a foreign bid. So, then it gets down to priorities.
>
<snippetry>
>Peter Soltesz

All this is a little out of date now, but things have been really hectic at
the law office, and I didn't have the opportunity to respond earlier.

Tisztelettel,

Johanne/Janka
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: Hungarhotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:03 AM 9/14/96 GMT, George Antony wrote:

>No, you were perfectly clear [concerning the drop in popularity in both the
Antall and the Horn governments].  It would seem that I was not though.
>
>I am trying to emphasize the difference between the two drops.  Even if
>they are similar in their pattern, their meaning is not.  In all
>countries,
>once the honeymoon period of the new government is over after the
>elections, popularity drops.  This is not all, though. The Antall
>government tried to please just about everybody and its popularity has
>dropped as it did.

        I think that you leave out one important ingredient here: the media.
The media was practically uniformly against the Antall government (and now
let's leave aside the question whether it was deserved or not) while the
media has been a great deal more charitable toward this government. The
largest and most influential papers have been, by and large, supporting the
government's policies. And whether we like it or not, the influence of the
media is great everywhere. Lately, however, I have been noticing a change in
tone: there is a great deal of criticism of Horn's way of handling people
and matters. There is the recognition that the SZDSZ's decision to join the
MSZP to form a government might not have been a very good idea. First, the
SZDSZ has not been able to influence the economic policies of the government
which they were hoping to do. See, for example, Tamas Suchman's appointment
as minister of industry and trade while also handling privatization. Suchman
is a man of the left and very critical of the economics ideas of the SZDSZ
which, at least in my opinion, are the best in the Hungarian situation.
Second, the media is beginning to realize the drawbacks of such a large
government majority in parliament. Even HVG, certainly not an opposition
weekly, called the existing situation nothing but a "voting machine." That
is, if Suchman's appointment is illegal, no matter, they will simply change
the law! Some people, including man like Istvan Eorsi, one of the founding
fathers of SZDSZ, are comparing the current situation to Istvan Tisza's
"government party," or Istvan Bethlen's "government party"; that is,
quasi-democracy only. Eorsi lately compared this government to the kind we
could read about in Mikszath's novels. I think it is worth quoting it in the
original: "A koalicio fokerdeset a szabaddemokratak szempontjabol igy
osszegeznem: erdemes-e nema cinkoskent statisztalnunk a mikszathi haza
kormanyzasi erkolcseit felidezo rendszerben, ahol is partallami
olligarchacskak es ujgazdagok jatsszak el az arisztokratak es a dzsentrik
szerepet? Milyen realizalhato kormanyzati erdemenyekert erdemes tovabb
mocskolodnunk?" [The main question of the coalition from the point of view
of the Free Democrats can be summarized as follows: Is it worth, as silent
accomplices, to play a bit part in a regime which evokes the government
morality of the fatherland a la Mikszath; in which the roles of the
aristocracy and the gentry have been replaced by two-bit oligarchies from
the one-party state, and the nouveaux riches. For what kind of realized
results is it worth to dirty ourselves?] I am certainly kinder to the MSZP
than Istvan Eorsi!

>I cannot help the perception that you are unwilling to have a balanced
>view of his [meaning Horn's] reign.  Post after post I can only read about
his negative
>side, nothing of what he may have done right.  I understand that you
>say that you are not biased against him, but this is not the appearance
>that you create.

        You may have noticed that for a fairly long period of time I
defended this government against criticism, especially after the appointment
of Lajos Bokros. But in the last six months I see mounting evidence that
something is not right, neither economically nor politically. And obviously
I am not the only one who noticed it. And by the way, I have a good "nose"
when it comes to politics. First, I'm interested in it and second, I can
read between the lines.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: *** HUNGARY *** #789 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Eva Balogh writes:

>        About two years ago we had a discussion on this very topic here in
>HUNGARY. I recalled my memories of Mindszenty's speech and the general
>negative reaction to all of those students who were listening to the radio
>in my room. I recalled it exactly that Mindszenty demanded the property of
>the church back, including large landholdings. Then, another participant
>published the actual speech of Mindszenty: there was not one word about
>demanding back the church's extensive real estates. Then I consulted with
>several people who were there and everybody remembered the way I did.
>
>===========================================================================
=========
Let me quote from my memoires without any further comment on the above subject:

"About this same time (1945), Rodolfo arrived to Budapest with my sister Eva
to assume the post of the press attache at the Italian embassy. A few weeks
later, the first charge d'affaires also arrived, a high level diplomat from
the Italian foreign ministry. In addition to the usual formal calls to
members of the government -the post of presidency was not yet established-
he visited the head of the Catholic church, Cardinal Mindszenty. The
Cardinal was ill at the time, but insisted on seeing the charge d'affaires
and his interpreter, Rodolfo, at his hospital bedside. He began by sharply
criticizing the provisional government, but without any specifics.
"But what is your main complaint, your Excellency?" asked the charge d'affaires
.
"They confiscated our land, land which was the property of the church for
centuries." And he rambled on about the injustice the church has suffered by
no longer being one of the largest landowners.
"But are not the recipients of the land mostly Catholic landless peasants?"
asked the charge d'affaires politely.
The Cardinal simply ignored his question and continued his tirade against
the government, again and again pointing out that the Church was robbed of
its land. Nothing else interested him.
After the visit, Rodolfo told me: "I am not a Hungarian, but as a Catholic I
felt very uncomfortable translating the primitive and sometimes incoherent
complaints by the Cardinal. I noticed that the charge d'affaires was shocked
and terribly disappointed by the position of this church leader."

Szegedy Sandor
+ - Re: Jackson in Budapest (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Of course Hungarians love "Jacko."  After looking at faces like Rakosi,
Stalin and Kadar for decades, it must be really refreshing to look at
Michael Jackson (even though his demeanor is as contrived as the others).

Burian
+ - Re: To All: (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Happy 5757 New Year

A.A.
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>Now, if someone refuses
>to talk about the real issue, and flees into a simplistic name
>calling, as Sam did, then he himself chose a 'non-superior' posi-
>tion, and he himself rejected the possibility of being educated
>by anyone, not by x or z but by anybody, about the thing.
>
>

Zoltan, you learned well from the fraternal socialist watch-snatchers
while they were running Hungary. Only someone schooled under Russian
Marxist-Leninist principles would persist in lying so openly at every
turn, figuring if he repeats it enough it will be taken for the truth. You
never were able to successfully defend your own statements about
Heidegger. You got your clock cleaned. You are in no position to educate
anyone about anything, as I have pointed out here before. Anyone on the
group think Zoltan has enough wits about him to even tell the difference
between Shinola and a common brown substance found in cow pastures?
Sam Stowe

Born to laugh at hurricanes.
+ - Hungarian Folk Music Concerts By Ghymes Ensemble @ Ada, (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hungarian Folk Music Concerts By Ghymes Ensemble (Pozsony, Szlovakia):

Sept. 15, 1996, 19:00 (7PM)
The Getty College of Arts and Sciences Department of Music
Ohio Northern University
Ada, OH 45810

Ghymes is a Hugarian folk ensemble which has been playing together for ten
years.  Based in Bratislava (Pozsony - the former capital of Hungary),
Slovakia, they are members of the large ethnic Hungarian minority which
resides in the regions of Slovakia.  The members of Ghymes believe
strongly in the universality and binding strength of music to transcend
cultural and linguistic boundaries and bring us ever closer to global
harmony.

Since 1984 the band has performed as part of a state funded Hungarian
ensemble called Ifju Szivek (Young Hearts), which is comprised of a
foldance troupe, a symphony orchestra, a choir, an ancient music ensemble,
and Ghymes.  Ghymes became full-time professionals in 1990.

That same year the band widened its horizons by joining with a
French-based ensemble called Vents d'est (Eastern Wind).  Headed by Mique
Montanaro and comprised of singers and musicians playing French, Slavic
and Hungarian folk music they combine musical genres to create a new and
universal sound. This ongoing collaboration has yielded a French release
titled Migrations.

Ghymes began its life as folk musicians in the tradition of the Hungarian
tanchaz (community dance) revival of the 1960-70's.  For years they
conducted research tours, collecting songs for their repertoire and
playing as dance accompanists.  Convinced, however, that their tanchaz
based audience would be forever limited, they decided to break tradition
and play exclusively as concert musicians.  Their mission is to evolve and
build a new popular music based on Hungarian folk roots.  They aim their
music at the young people of the rock and roll generation, striving to
turn those minds to an appreciation of their own ethnic roots.
Simultaneaously they proliferate their sound, powerful and beautiful, to
audiences around the world.  They have toured Japan, Finland, France,
Switzerland, Austria, Iraq, Jordan, Spain, Greece, and for the first time
in 1994, the USA.  Always meeting an enthusiastic response, their live
music energizes and engages.  In concert they introduce the title song of
their album Message as being about freedom, music's freedom.  The music of
Ghymes is free, free of national boundaries and prejudices, free to move
us out of our seats and dance.

Members:        Laszlo Behr     hammer dulcimer, percussion
                Andor Bujak     viola, saxophone, bombard
                Krisztian Bujak bagpipe, tarogato, percussion
                Gyula Szarka    bass, vocals, guitar, lyre, kalabash
                                zithern
                Tamas Szarka    violin, koboz, percussion

Releases:       Ifjusag mint solyommadar (Youth as Falcon) 1988 LP
                Ghymes 1991 CD
                Uzenet (Message) 1993 CD
                Bennunk van a kutyaver 1995 MC
                Firejump 1996 MC

Contact:        Monika Csikmak, Svatoplukova 1.  903 01 Senec, Slovakia
                tel. 42 7 53 31 089, tel./fax. 42 7 923 872
+ - Ikarusz, formerly HungarHotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

  on Mon Sep  9 17:46:35 EDT 1996 in HUNGARY #785:

> I read one interview with some bigwig who announced
>that one of the prerequisites of any tender is that the new company must
>keep the name. Yes, said he, there have been some talk about Volvo being
>interested but they don't want to keep the name. Maybe I am just far too
>hard-headed but for crying outloud when thousands of jobs are at stake, when
>economic growth is so important, should we care about under what names they
>are making those buses? I shouldn't think so.
>
>        Eva Balogh

Yes, we probably should care a great deal whether or not a purchaser keeps
the old name.  Why?  For one, a trade name by itself can be a valuable asset
(under the accounting rubric of "goodwill").  Another, even more important
reason is the likelihood of continued operation of the business after it is
acquired by a foreign buyer.  If the assets of Ikarus are bought without the
name, it would be an indication that the buyer was interested in buying only
the tangible assets and the market share, while perhaps intending to shut
down
the production line itself.  Absorbing competitors in this manner is not an
unknown practice even here in the USA.

Ferenc
+ - Re: 1956 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 on Thu Sep 12 23:37:22 EDT 1996 in HUNGARY #788:

>In a message dated 96-09-12 19:04:51 EDT,  (Peter
>I. Hidas) writes:
><snip>
>>The authors  also claim that, .......
>>intellectuals, remained reform communists. Even Cardinal Mindszenty, the
>>most vehement opponent of the communists, including Imre Nagy, spoke in his
>>3 October 1956 address to the nation about "classless society" and the
>>"principle of private property limited by social concern." (p.129) .......
>
>My recollection of the events and the mood of the times is different. I
>remember how upset some people were, because the Cardinal asked for the
>return of all church property in his speach. The feeling was, that there
were
>other issues more important to discuss. The country wanted to be read of the
>Soviet yoke along with communism -- without returning to the old ways
(before
>WW2). Times have changed, the hope was to create a democratic
>government/society. But than again, I can only speak of my experience. One
>thing is certain, everyone wanted the Soviets and the communist regime to
>disappear. That probably is the only thing that we Hungarians ever agreed
on.

Your recollection is faulty.  The Cardinal made a point of stating that the
Church would not ask for its confiscated lands back and expressed confidence
that believers would find a way to support the church by other means.

The communists maintained for four decades their libelous allegation about
Mindszenty demanding the return of the Church's land holding as part of their
official propaganda to discredit him in the eyes of the people.  The text of
the speech in question was not made available to the public during the Kadar
years.  It was published in 1989 for the first time since 1956.  In the
midst of all the tumultuous changes after the fall of communism not everyone
may have noticed, thus the confusion lives on.  Apparently Hitler was right
about the efficacy of oft repeated lies.

>I guess I have some reading to do!
>
>Marina E. Pflieger

Don't we all!

Ferenc
+ - Re: Funar - the cold truth (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  writes:

>Sam, what do you consider is my nationality so I could adjust the step.
>Don't beat the bush, speak out on issues or move.
>Hungary is in agony it sure does not need you.
>Go and  laugh at hurricanes you are a foreigner to that land.
>You have no roots and no backbone.
>
>Albert Albu
>
>I laugh at idiots..

Judging from your last statement, may we then assume that you spend an
inordinate amount of time standing in front of the mirror with tears
rolling down your face? Your nationality, from what I can determine, is
Franco-Italo-Daco-Slobovian. If I didn't have a backbone, I wouldn't spend
time sending messages along it from my brain to the foot which is
constantly kicking you in the butt. This is the second or third message
from you recently spouting out (between various bits of indecipherable
Manglish prose) that if the reader doesn't side with you, perhaps he or
she ought to find another list. May I heartily suggest that when you
finally exit this newsgroup after being humiliated by most or all of the
regular, sane posters, that you will not let the door hit you on the
backside?
Sam Stowe

Born to laugh at hurricanes.
+ - Re: To All: (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "Eva S.
Balogh" > writes:

>  Happy New Year to you, too, Andy. It was this afternoon that
>suddenly it occurred me that of sundown it is the beginning of Rosh
Hashanah.
>
>        Eva Balogh

Andy, I hope it is indeed a very happy New Year for you and your family
and for all of us here on the Hungary list.
Sam Stowe

Born to laugh at hurricanes.
+ - Re: 1956 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "Eva S.
Balogh" > writes:

>At 11:01 PM 9/12/96 -0400, Marina wrote:
>>In a message dated 96-09-12 19:04:51 EDT, 
(Peter
>>I. Hidas) writes:
>><snip>
>>>The authors  also claim that, .......
>>>intellectuals, remained reform communists. Even Cardinal Mindszenty,
the
>>>most vehement opponent of the communists, including Imre Nagy, spoke in
his
>>>3 October 1956 address to the nation about "classless society" and the
>>>"principle of private property limited by social concern." (p.129)
.......
>>
>>My recollection of the events and the mood of the times is different. I
>>remember how upset some people were, because the Cardinal asked for the
>>return of all church property in his speach. The feeling was, that there
>were
>>other issues more important to discuss. The country wanted to be read of
the
>>Soviet yoke along with communism -- without returning to the old ways
>(before
>>WW2). Times have changed, the hope was to create a democratic
>>government/society. But than again, I can only speak of my experience.
One
>>thing is certain, everyone wanted the Soviets and the communist regime
to
>>disappear. That probably is the only thing that we Hungarians ever
agreed
>on.
>
>        About two years ago we had a discussion on this very topic here
in
>HUNGARY. I recalled my memories of Mindszenty's speech and the general
>negative reaction to all of those students who were listening to the
radio
>in my room. I recalled it exactly that Mindszenty demanded the property
of
>the church back, including large landholdings. Then, another participant
>published the actual speech of Mindszenty: there was not one word about
>demanding back the church's extensive real estates. Then I consulted with
>several people who were there and everybody remembered the way I did.
>
>        How was this possible? I still don't understand it. There can be
>only two possibilities: (1) the text published by Mindszenty later in his
>book wasn't accurate; or, (2) we were all so indoctrinated against the
>church that we read something into the speech which in fact wasn't there.
>
>        Eva Balogh

Eva,
I have listened to the same speach, very intently, and to this day I know
what I heard!

On an other note; I have been reading some of the poems of  Ma'rai Sandor.
Here is a short one:
                            A FUTO

                            Fe'lek
                            Uram, hogy jonnek me'g napok,
                            Mikor a torvenyen telik be az itelet.

                                            -------------

           Marina

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