Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 532
Copyright (C) HIX
1995-12-27
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Roma Culture (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Something to Muse About (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: The usual (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
4 HL-Slovakia (mind)  107 sor     (cikkei)
5 HL-Slovakia (mind)  107 sor     (cikkei)
6 Hungary's Neighbor (mind)  90 sor     (cikkei)
7 From Lukacs to Tocqueville (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Roma Culture (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Roma Culture (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
10 Romani (mind)  72 sor     (cikkei)
11 Romani Slavery (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Romani Slavery (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
13 Keyser Soze (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
14 In search of......The Magar tribe. (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
15 Joe Szalai wrote: (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Looking for recipe (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)
17 Intolerance in Central Europe (mind)  61 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Roma Culture (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The book that Bela Liptak referred to, "Bury Me Standing," got a long, lauda-
tory review in the Sunday *New York Times Book Review* a couple of months
ago.  It's worth reading, too.

Udv.,
Be'la Ba'tkay
+ - Re: Something to Muse About (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At the risk of luring the anti-Semites out from under their rocks, Joe
Szalai's crack about "the birth of a boy who grows up to think he's God is
an everyday event" puts me in mind of an old joke.

        "How do you know that Jesus was Jewish?"  "Easy--he lived at home
until he was 30, he went into his father's business, and his mother thought
he was God!"

Udv.,
Be'la
+ - Re: The usual (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>>I'm not sure what you're trying to get at, Janos.  Perhaps it might help if
>>I put quotation marks around 'accept' and removed them from 'significant
>>differences'.  For example, I'll state that I'm not a religious person but I
>>'accept' those who are.  If I had a place to rent, I'd rent regardless of
>>race, colour, religion, etc.  Now, if someone I rented to had a religious
>>belief and they had to sing and dance at three in the morning, and as a
>>result I would be deprived of my sleep, then yes, that would be a
>>significant difference and I would cease to rent to them.  Does that make me
>>intolerant?


       At the risk of being rude,  perhaps I can interject myself into this
conversation.  To answer your question; no you are not intolerant.  You are
merely civilized, and as one such civilized person, you naturally desire
that those you associate with might be equally polite.

        If one is offended at your statement that you would not tolerate
uncivil behavior in your home, then a plague of boors upon them.

Regards,

Doug Hormann

Doug Hormann

Using a Mac Pwrbk 140
+ - HL-Slovakia (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Colleagues,

Thanks partly to the over 100 letters which you sent from around the world to
the New York Times, the paper has sent one of its best investigative
reporters: Stephen Kinzer to Slovakia, who's nearly full page report appears
in this morning's issue, titled: West Says Slovakia Falls Short Of
Democracy."

The article states: "Two opposition figures, Peter Toth, a journalist, and
Frantisek Moklosko, a deputy chairman of the Christian Democratic Party, have
been assaulted on the street by thugs who were not interested in robbing
them...
      Last month, Parliament approved a law requiring the use of the Slovak
language...Like many laws, this one is vague and open to interpretations. But
it has deeply upset leaders of the country's ethnic Hungarians, who
constitute about 11 percent of the population...bureopcrats use it to
discriminate... an ethnic Hungarian was not allowed to send a telegram in
Hungarian...The more languages you know the worse Slovak you are...the
European Parliament adopted a resolution charging the Slovak Government with
following policies which show no respect for democracy, human and minority
rights and the rule of law."

Dear Colleagues: It is our happy duty for a change to write letters in which
we thank the NYT and Stephen Kinzer for his fine reporting. THE ADDRESS IS:
 E-Mail:   Fax: 212-556-3622

In our letteres we might make the following added points:
* Tensions in Slovakia are not created by the minorities, nor by the
international community, which is trying to protect them. Tensions are
created by STATE SPONSORED DISCRIMINATION and attempts at forced
assimilation.

* The language laws can best be explained by saying that it is like if the
people of Montreal would be fined if they spoke French or the people of Miami
if they spoke Spanish.

* It is important to point out in our letters, that the
language law is in DIRECT CONFLICT with the Slovak Constitution's 34/2/b
paragraph, which GUARANTEES the right of the minorities to use their
languages in all official and public communications.

* Neither the former prime minister Jozef Moravcik, nor Jan Charnogursky
voted for this law.

* The language law infringes on the rights of the Slovak population also,
because if a language error or foreign word appears in a Slovak publication,
that publication can be fined $7500. (In case of TV/radio the fine is
$15,000.) As the penalty is payable to the "Pro Slovakia" organization, there
are also potentials for exploiting this law for political  or personal
purposes (such as obtaining campaign funds for nationalist groups or
penalizing progressive ones).

* It is now clear that the laws and regulations enacted in Slovakia and
Romania are coordinated and serve to divert public attention from the
economic problems.

While we should thank the NYT for their fine reporting, we should continue
our letter campaign to our political leaders and local newspapers. To assist
you in so doing an individualizable form letter is attached below:


LIST OF ADDRESSES:
President Bill Clinton:   fax: 202-456-2461
VP Al Gore:   fax:202-456-2461
Senator Robert Dole: fax: 202-228-1245
Congressman Newton Gingrich:  fax: 202-225-4656

(If you need the addresses of any other politicians or news organizations
anywhere in the world, please send me a note, giving your state and
district. Starting on January 1, you can obtain all addresses from our
home-page at: http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/ )

THE INDIVIDUALIZED FORM LETTER:

The Honorable ....

Dear ....

I am (A MEMBER, OFFICER, PRESIDENT ETC. OF XYZ ORGANIZATION, CHURCH,
COMPANY...). Similarly to the 1.5 million American voters of Hungarian
origin, I too
am concerned about the oppression of Hungarian minorities in Romania,
Slovakia and Serbia. I am particularly concerned about the ethnic cleansing
in Vojvodina, the discrimination in Transylvania and the establishment of the
"language police" in Slovakia.

Dear Mr. (PRESIDENT,  SENATOR, CONGRESSMAN...) I would like to learn your
views on this matter and the steps you might take to help alleviate the
suffering of these indigenous Hungarian national communities. Specifically, I
am concerned about the newly passed "language laws", under which a Hungarian
 can be fined for the equivalent  of a year's salary, for the "crime" of
speaking Hungarian.
There is no more basic human right, than the right to speak one's mother
tongue and the civilized world should not allow that basic right to be
denied. I know, that a letter from you to either President Michal Kovac of
Slovakia would help to change this situation.

Because it would substantially increase your support among the
Hungarian-American voters in the 1996 elections, I would like to ask for your
permission to publish your response, if any, to this letter, in the
Hungarian-American press and media.

Respectfully yours,



YOUR NAME, ADDRESS,TITLE
+ - HL-Slovakia (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Colleagues,

Thanks partly to the over 100 letters which you sent from around the world to
the New York Times, the paper has sent one of its best investigative
reporters: Stephen Kinzer to Slovakia, who's nearly full page report appears
in this morning's issue, titled: West Says Slovakia Falls Short Of
Democracy."

The article states: "Two opposition figures, Peter Toth, a journalist, and
Frantisek Moklosko, a deputy chairman of the Christian Democratic Party, have
been assaulted on the street by thugs who were not interested in robbing
them...
      Last month, Parliament approved a law requiring the use of the Slovak
language...Like many laws, this one is vague and open to interpretations. But
it has deeply upset leaders of the country's ethnic Hungarians, who
constitute about 11 percent of the population...bureopcrats use it to
discriminate... an ethnic Hungarian was not allowed to send a telegram in
Hungarian...The more languages you know the worse Slovak you are...the
European Parliament adopted a resolution charging the Slovak Government with
following policies which show no respect for democracy, human and minority
rights and the rule of law."

Dear Colleagues: It is our happy duty for a change to write letters in which
we thank the NYT and Stephen Kinzer for his fine reporting. THE ADDRESS IS:
 E-Mail:   Fax: 212-556-3622

In our letteres we might make the following added points:
* Tensions in Slovakia are not created by the minorities, nor by the
international community, which is trying to protect them. Tensions are
created by STATE SPONSORED DISCRIMINATION and attempts at forced
assimilation.

* The language laws can best be explained by saying that it is like if the
people of Montreal would be fined if they spoke French or the people of Miami
if they spoke Spanish.

* It is important to point out in our letters, that the
language law is in DIRECT CONFLICT with the Slovak Constitution's 34/2/b
paragraph, which GUARANTEES the right of the minorities to use their
languages in all official and public communications.

* Neither the former prime minister Jozef Moravcik, nor Jan Charnogursky
voted for this law.

* The language law infringes on the rights of the Slovak population also,
because if a language error or foreign word appears in a Slovak publication,
that publication can be fined $7500. (In case of TV/radio the fine is
$15,000.) As the penalty is payable to the "Pro Slovakia" organization, there
are also potentials for exploiting this law for political  or personal
purposes (such as obtaining campaign funds for nationalist groups or
penalizing progressive ones).

* It is now clear that the laws and regulations enacted in Slovakia and
Romania are coordinated and serve to divert public attention from the
economic problems.

While we should thank the NYT for their fine reporting, we should continue
our letter campaign to our political leaders and local newspapers. To assist
you in so doing an individualizable form letter is attached below:


LIST OF ADDRESSES:
President Bill Clinton:   fax: 202-456-2461
VP Al Gore:   fax:202-456-2461
Senator Robert Dole: fax: 202-228-1245
Congressman Newton Gingrich:  fax: 202-225-4656

(If you need the addresses of any other politicians or news organizations
anywhere in the world, please send me a note, giving your state and
district. Starting on January 1, you can obtain all addresses from our
home-page at: http://mineral.umd.edu/hl/ )

THE INDIVIDUALIZED FORM LETTER:

The Honorable ....

Dear ....

I am (A MEMBER, OFFICER, PRESIDENT ETC. OF XYZ ORGANIZATION, CHURCH,
COMPANY...). Similarly to the 1.5 million American voters of Hungarian
origin, I too
am concerned about the oppression of Hungarian minorities in Romania,
Slovakia and Serbia. I am particularly concerned about the ethnic cleansing
in Vojvodina, the discrimination in Transylvania and the establishment of the
"language police" in Slovakia.

Dear Mr. (PRESIDENT,  SENATOR, CONGRESSMAN...) I would like to learn your
views on this matter and the steps you might take to help alleviate the
suffering of these indigenous Hungarian national communities. Specifically, I
am concerned about the newly passed "language laws", under which a Hungarian
 can be fined for the equivalent  of a year's salary, for the "crime" of
speaking Hungarian.
There is no more basic human right, than the right to speak one's mother
tongue and the civilized world should not allow that basic right to be
denied. I know, that a letter from you to either President Michal Kovac of
Slovakia would help to change this situation.

Because it would substantially increase your support among the
Hungarian-American voters in the 1996 elections, I would like to ask for your
permission to publish your response, if any, to this letter, in the
Hungarian-American press and media.

Respectfully yours,



YOUR NAME, ADDRESS,TITLE
+ - Hungary's Neighbor (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The New York Times on December 26, 1995 published the following
article by Stephen Kinzer under the title

WEST SAYS SLOVAKIA FALLS SHORT OF DEMOCRACY

Here are some excerpts:

When Chancellor Helmut Kohl of Germany delivered a speech about Europe's
future this month, he called for enlargement of the European Union and
suggested three candidates: Hungary, Poland and the Czech Republic.

Mr. Kohl's list was notable for a conspicuous omission.

Slovakia, which he once cited as a prime candidate, is no longer on his
list of leading candidates.

Recent events in Slovakia have led Western Governments to complain with
unusual force that this country is failing to live up to European
standards of democracy. Prime Minister Vladimir Meciar and his allies
have responded by accusing foreign Governments of seeking to threaten
and intimidate them.

"I'm not sure they are aware of the fact that they're slowly being
pushed aside," said Frantisek Sebej, who was chairman of the foreign
relations committee in the Czechoslovak Parliament from 1990 until the
country split at the end of 1992, and who now belongs to a small opposition
party here.

"We are becoming an authoritarian country run by people with no ideology,
just an insatiable hunger for power. The word fascism doesn't fit, but
this is becoming an intolerant, highly centralized nationalist state,"
he said.

Western diplomats here assert that Mr. Meciar's Government is seeking to
consolidate its power with undemocratic tactics.

The civil service and the Government-run television system, for example,
have been purged of people suspected of being insufficiently loyal. Judges
who are considered unreliable have found their budgets cut. Members of
parliament from the opposition Democratic Union are being threatened with
expulsion on the ground that their election petitions included invalid
signatures.

Political loyalty has also become a factor in handing out federal subsidies
to local governments. In the capital, Bratislava, many street lights are
dark at night. Local officials say the city cannot pay its electric bills
because Mr. Meciar is withholding funds to punish voters for choosing an
opposition Mayor.

Several draft laws now circulating among members of Parliament, all of which
would centralize more power in Mr. Meciar's hands, have also caused
concern in Western Capitals. One proposal would reduce autonomy at
universities, another would make it more difficult for the Constitutional
Court to declare laws unconstitutional, a third would restrict the activities
of private organizations and a fourth would punish citizens who make
negative statements about the country that they cannot prove to be true.

Two opposition figures, Peter Toth, a journalist, and Frantisek Moklosko,
deputy chairman of the Christian Democratic party, have recently reported
being assaulted on the street by thugs who were not interested in robbing
them. Both suspect that the beatings were a form of retribution or
warning from elements of the newly invigorated secret police.

Last month, Parliament approved a law requiring the use of the Slovak
language in many circumstances. Like many Slovak laws, this one is vague
and open to many interpretations. But it has deeply upset leaders of the
country's ethnic Hungarians, who constitute about 11 percent of the
population.

The Hungarian Ambassador, Jeno Boros, said he feared that"bureaucrats at
lower levels" would use the law to discriminate. Mr. Boros described
several cases that have already come to attention, including one in which
an ethnic Hungarian was not allowed to send a telegram in Hungarian.

"There is an old expression in this part odf the world that says that the
more languages you know, the better person you are," he said. "Now you
hear a new expression: 'The more languages you know, the worse Slovak
you are.'"

In recent weeks, Western Governments have expressed their concern about
these developments in a series of blunt messages. The European Union
delivered a formal diplomatic demarche complaining about human rights
abuses, and the United States followed with one urging the Government
to place "greater emphasis on the toleration of diverse opinions."

Soon after, the European Parliament adopted a resolution charging the
Slovak Government with following "policies which show no respect for
democracy, human and minority rights and the rule of law."

......
+ - From Lukacs to Tocqueville (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

For those interested in political theory from a Central European,
and particularly Hungarian, perspective could turn with profit to
the current issue of Thesis Eleven, edited at Monash University
and published by MIT Press (No. 42, 1995). It is devoted to the
topic "Ferenc Feher, 1933-1994 From Lukacs to Tocqueville."

>From the introduction:

"In one of his last papers-"1989 and the Deconstruction of Political
Monism"-Ferenc Feher quotes the paradoxical question of Kolalowski:
can we be liberal conservative socialists? Is it possible not just for
the individual but for society to combine liberalism in politics, a
conservative respect for cultural heritage with a commitment to social
justice? The deconstruction of political monism, of which Feher speaks,
refers to the ambiguities of Fukuyama's "The End of History": on the one
hand, the final ignominious disintegration of the Soviet version of a
Marxian philosophy of history; on the other, the proclaiming of the
triumph of capitalism and the global market as the end purpose of
history. Hence Feher's deconstructive question, addressed to the absolute
present tense of really existing democracy. Where do we go after the
end of History? Feher answers with Kolakowski's question. It is the program
for a new critical theory, given a renewed urgency by the liberation
of Eastern Europe.

....

With tle liberation of society in Eastern Europe from its subordination
to the state, Tocqueville's Democracy in America has become, Feher
argues, more relevant than ever. Only religion, Tocqueville maintained,
could contain the conflict between freedom and equality and provide the
spiritual reserves necessary to sustain a democratic ethos. Although
Feher rejects the answer of religion, he concurs with Tocqueville's
diagnosis of the problem, which he sees sees as both more balanced and
embracing than the cultural criticism since Carlyle. Tocqueville
posed the problem of a culture of democracy in a form which combines
Lukacs's and Adorno's critique of capitalism with Nietzsche's critique
of democracy.

......."


CSABA K. ZOLTANI
+ - Re: Roma Culture (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On 26 Dec 95 at 0:50, W. BATKAY wrote:

> The book that Bela Liptak referred to, "Bury Me Standing," got a long,
> lauda- tory review in the Sunday *New York Times Book Review* a couple of
> months ago.  It's worth reading, too.

I would only add the caveat that some of Isabel's comments are not
correct. For example she says that Romani has no words for warmth,
comfort, etc. This is not exactly true. The words for these concepts  are,
in many dialects, borrowed from other languges rather than drawing upon
"more authentic" Sanskrit stock. Nevertheless, the words exist, and all
languages in contact have borrowings. Isabel also describes Romani slavery
in R/o/u/ou/mania as if she were the first person to discover its
existence. Ian Hancock's excellent book _The Pariah Syndrome_ documented
this well-known (at least among Roma) period of history nearly a decade
ago.

Small criticisms though, really, of an otherwise excellent introduction to
Romani culture.

Best,
Rebecca

Rebecca Tracy                   Ohio State University
e-mail:         Center for Slavic & East European Studies
+ - Re: Roma Culture (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Szia Be'la!

Happy season to you!

I'm spending the week getting ready to travel to Massachusetts. Tying up
loose ends as it were. Rachel will be able to stay with her father, as it
turns out, so my worries about her missing so much school are relieved at
least.
I'll have e-mail while I'm at Hampshire, so I'll be sure to let you know
when I get there so that we can make plans to meet sometime during
January.

The discussion of Roma has been much more civil, overall, this time around
than the last Hungary-list discussion of that particular sort. I'm always
interested to read other's impressions of Roma. It is also interesting
that most Americans and Canadians are oblivious to the Roma around them. A
question of population density to a large degree, I suppose, but I wonder
if there isn't something more to it.

Now, back to work. ;-)

Ashen devlesa,
Rebecca
+ - Romani (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

RE: Discussion about the Romani

Several references have been made to the book

        Isabel Fonseca, Bury Me Standing
        Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1995

which paints a fascinating and sympathetic portrait of an unassimilated
ethnic group through their travails in East Central Europe and the
Balkans. The catchy title is from a Romany proverb, "Bury me standing,
I've been on my knees all my life."

Probably the most revealing and least known part of the book is a
chapter simply titled Slavery. It details how Romani have been been
enslaved in Wallachia and Moldova, the feudal principalitie which, with
Transylvania make up modern Romania. In both Wallachia and Moldova
slavery was an institution which was enshrined in a complete legal
framework.

A short excerpt from the book:

"The Latin-speaking Vlachs who lived in Wallachia-Moldavia (and whose
descendants inhabit modern Romania) soon recognized the economic value
of of the Gypsies. Indeed, though an earlier record of Gypsies in the
Balkans documents Vlachus and Vitanus, two "Egyptians," as placing an
order with a Dubrovnik goldsmith in 1362, the first mention of Gypsies
in the Romanian archives looks like a reference to cattle. In 1385, the
lord of Wallachia, Prince Dan I, reaffirmed a gift of forty Gypsy
families made fifteen years earlier by his uncle to monasteries at
Vodita and Tismana. In 1388, the next Wallachian Prince, Mircea the Old,
donated three hundred families to the Cozia monastery. In Moldavia in
1428, Alexandru the Good handed over "31 tigani tents" to the monastery
of ....

also,

...

The diary of Erimiten von Gauting, a German tourist who passed through
Craiova on his way to Constantinople in 1836, gives a chilling
account of such relationships:

In the evening when the heat went down, I went into the city, and there
I saw a scene that I could not have thought of, not even in my
imagination. Along with a bunch of animals, the wife of some boyar had a
few gypsies, among them a very beautiful girl of 15, whom she sold to a
man for two gold coins.

The girl was to be taken at the very moment that I passed in front of
the miserable house where she stood with her family, crying. Her
parents, brothers, and sisters were all crying, but still she was
wrested from the arms of her mother and taken away.

I went to the barbarian man and told him that I would buy her back, but
he was very rich and laughed at my offer of 50 gold coins. He bragged
that he had bought her for his pleasure...and if she would not obey him
he would beat her until she did. He told me that if I wanted to buy
gypsies, he had 500, and among them some very beautiful girls. He said
he wouldn't mind selling those ones as they had already served him, but
with this girl he was really in love and could not part for any price.

I went to the police and have gone and talked everywhere, but they all
laughed at my stupidity: "Gypsies are our property and we can do with them
what we like."

The book also contains a facsimile of a poster announcing a slave auction
in Wallachia:

        FOR SALE, a prime lot of gypsy SLAVES, to be sold at
        auction at the monastery of St. Elias, 9 May 1852,
        consisting of 18 men, 10 boys, 7 women, and 3 girls
        in fine condition."
+ - Romani Slavery (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On December 26, 1995 Rebecca Tracy writes:

>languages in contact have borrowings. Isabel also describes Romani slavery
>in R/o/u/ou/mania as if she were the first person to discover its
>existence.

Not quite. On p.179 the author says, " ... I sat reading Mihail
Kogalniceanu's 1837 treatise on Gypsy slaves."

Hardly a claim to have discovered the history of slavery in Wallachia.

However, later on p. 186 she comments on the general ignorance of
Romanians, and even Roma, about their own history and past.


CSABA K. ZOLTANI
+ - Re: Romani Slavery (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In response to my assertion that the author of _Bury Me Standing_ writes
as if she were the first to discover Romani slavery,

On 26 Dec 95 at 14:38, Csaba Zoltani (ASHPC/CTD) wrote:
>Not quite. On p.179 the author says, " ... I sat reading Mihail
>Kogalniceanu's 1837 treatise on Gypsy slaves."

>Hardly a claim to have discovered the history of slavery in Wallachia.

Indeed, I should have been more careful. I got the impression that she was
trying to imply she is the first western author to document Romani slavery
extensively. Again, Ian Hancock, Sam Beck, and Nicolae Gheorghe have
written about this issue on numerous occasions. And again, this is a small
criticism of an otherwise excellent book. But I'll stand by my comments
that her linguistic analysis is falwed. ;-)

Rebecca
Rebecca Tracy                   Ohio State University
e-mail:         Center for Slavic & East European Studies
+ - Keyser Soze (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I hope that the people on this list don't view this question as being
frivolous.  In a recent movie, "The Usual Suspects," some attention is
given to strife between a group of fictitious Hungarian gangs --
attention is paid in particular to a syndicate led by a ruthless maverick
overlord, Keyser Soze, whose capacity for enormous evil and seeming
invulnerability have made him the stuff of legend.

The movie, to my knowledge, is totally made-up, so I'm not sure that
there are any historical resonances that you guys might detect from this
somewhat skeletal description.  What I do want to know, however, is
whether you can tell me if the name Keyser Soze -- in particular, the
word "Soze" -- contains any shielded meaning in Hungarian.  The movie is
well-written, and many of the English character names imply their own
sets of nuances (i.e., one of the characters' names is "Verbal").  So,
given the obvious implications suggested by the word "Keyser," does
"Soze" ring any Hungarian bells for native speakers out there?

I'm just a sort of language / literature buff, and I thought "The Usual
suspects" was a good movie.  So, if you can find the time to indulge me,
I'd really appreciate it.  Thanks in advance for your help.



--
John P. Pagano
+ - In search of......The Magar tribe. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Haliho,

I, finally, remembered, after 4 months, about this article in the Budapest Sun
I read when I came back from Hungary this past summer. It was about an
expidition being made to Tibet, to continue the work of Korosi Csoma Sandor, to
search for this lost "Magar" tribe that still exists according to Tibetaners.
Apparently, they apparently are the real McCoy here. Their features, customs,
and even language is related to magyar. I specifically remember about the turul
madar in their tongue being hurul. I'd like to know if there's any progress on
that search. If I find the article, I'll type it up. If someone can shed more
light on this subject????????

Udv.,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com
+ - Joe Szalai wrote: (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>He thinks that just because today is the 25th of December I shouldn't be
>asking people to think about certain things.  Well, Zsargo ur may think that
>this day is special in some way.  I don't.  Nor will I refrain from asking
>or saying things just because a lot of people agree with him.

No problem, tell whatever you want. But I do think you were unpolite.
Furthermore you did not ask anyone to think, you simple made a provocation.
There was no subject discussed recently on this list which can be related
to your 'certain things'.

>Thank God we live in a democray and not a theocracy!

This sounds very good! :-)

Janos
+ - Re: Looking for recipe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

From:  (Paul Kobar)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.hungary
Subject: Re: Looking for recipe
Date: 23 Dec 1995 22:30:23 GMT
Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc.
Message-ID: >
References: >

JZorko ) wrote:

: I am searching for a recipe for a bread-type dessert that my grandmother
: made at Christmas.  I don't know the actual spelling but she called it
: kollach (ch as in child).  I have seen recipes for something of a similar

Recipe for Kal'acs (pronounced kuh-lach) The word comes from the
Slavic "kol'ac", which in turn comes from "kolo", meaning circle.

2/3 cup milk        1/4 pound butter
1 pack yeast        3 egg yolks
3 cups flour        1 tsp salt
1/4 cup sugar       1 whole egg, separated
filling of groun walnuts, poppy seed, lekvar, apricot, etc.

1. Warm milk. To half the milk add the yeast, 2 tablespoons flour and
1 tablespoon sugar. Mix well. Let the starter rest for 10 minutes.

2. Mix the rest of the flour and butter till the mixture forms crumbs.
Then add the rest of the milk and the yeast mixture with egg yolks,
remaining sugar and the salt. Mix well. Knead for 10 to 12 minutes.

3. Let the dough rise till it doubles, 45 min to 1 hour.

4. Put the dough on a floured board and let rise again.

5. Roll out dough fill with ground nuts (or other) and roll into log.

6. Beat the extra egg yolk with 1 teaspoon water and brush the loaf.
Let dry (10 minutes) Brush loaf with the egg white.

7. Bake in preheated 375f oven for 40 minutes.


Enjoy
--Paul


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|  "All is number" Pythagoras
|  "e^(i*Pi) + 1 = 0"  Euler
|  "The answer...is 42" Deep Thought
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+ - Intolerance in Central Europe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The New York Times on December 27th under the headline

        CZECHS USE LAWS TO EXCLUDE GYPSIES
        FROM GAINING CITIZENSHIP AND VOTING

documents the latest installment in man's inhumanity to man.

Some brief excerpts:

"....The Czech Republic is commonly viewed in the West as a bastion of
tolerance and lofty ideals, a country that has most easily made the
transition from Communism to democratic values.

But European and American lawmakers have increasingly criticized the
Czech Government for a law that they say appears to have been written
with the idea of depriving citizenship to Gypsies, the largest ethnic
minority in the Czech Republic. A Czech human rights group, the
Tolerance Foundation, has estimated that at least 20,000 Gypsies, about
a tenth of the country's Gypsy population, have been excluded from
Czech citizenship since 1993.

In a letter to Vaclav Havel, the Czech President, the Commission on
Security and Cooperation in Europe described the citizenship law as
"instituting what may be the largest denaturalization in Europe since
the World War II period."

The law has meant that many Gypsies cannot take part in the country's
privatization program or reclaim property confiscated by the Communists.

.....


The discriminatory practices here are particularly serious, says the
United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, because they set a
precedent for other nations contemplating stringent citizenship
requirements as a way of excluding people for ethnic or religious
reasons.

Citizenship legislation based on ethnicity is the worst thing happening
in Europe and it's being done in the cloak of democracy because
international law is fairly weak on this," a Unite Nations refugee
official familiar with the Czech situation said. "If the international
community accepts this legislation in the highly developed Czech
Republic with a Prague castle and Havel in it, what's to stop the
Yugoslav lands from doing it?"

Already, restrictive citizenship legislation is being drafted in Croatia
and Macedonia, the offocial said, speaking on the condition of
anonymity.

..

There has so far been no action on appeals to the Czechs to change the law
and bring it into line with the standards of the Council of Europe, of which
the Czech Republic is a member.

Critics say this is partly because Mr. Havel has been unwilling to push
to change a law that public opinion surveys show is hugely popular among
Czech voters.

......."

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