Kedves Balogh Eva!

At 08:50 09/03/96 -0800, Eva Balogh wrote:

>
>        It is very possible that in case of Soros, antisemitism is not the
>main thread, but I think it is a mistake to equate antisemitism only with
>MIEP's supporters. I just returned from Hungary and I find that there is a
>certain preoccupation with questions of Jews and Jewishness in general. On
>both sides; that is, the left as well as the right. I have met old
>acquaintances from both camps and it never failed: sometime during the
>conversation the role of the Jews in Hungarian cultural and political life
>was inevitably mentioned. And not favorably. Call it what you
>wish--antisemitism or not--but I think that the SZDSZ is doomed because both
>sides consider it a Jewish party and therefore not acceptable.

Do you think that this is a symptom of the old common tendency, especially
visible in the past in Germany and Russia, of people to use the Jews as
scapegoats for their problems? In the case of Hungary, are the people
looking for an identifiable group that they can blame for the economic
problems of the country?

I know relatively little about the history of Hungary since 1920, but I have
always understood that the Jews were accepted there as Hungarians and
recognized themselves as Hungarians, and that they therefore had much more
freedom, faced much less persecution than elsewhere and therefore were able
to make outstanding contributions to Hungarian society. Would you agree with
this? Was there actually a lot of resentment against the Jews all along that
was just masked?

It is my impression that the only era in which the Jews in Hungary were
actually persecuted was the latter part of WWII. If that is so, why did the
Hungarians, who I presume had resisted the pressure to round up the Jews
earlier, succumb to the pressure at that time, when after the Battle of
Stalingrad it must have become increasingly obvious that the Germans were
going to go down in flames?

Would it be fair to say that there is a larger population of people of
Jewish heritage today in Hungary than in other countries of Eastern Europe?
How would the population compare with that in the countries of Western Europe?

>>On the subject of Csurka I have a question: now that the "kuruc" and "labanc"
>>wings of MDF parted ways, will Lezsa1k embrace him? I think I read something
>>to the effect that he wants to make MDF more open in that direction.
>
>        That's my hunch.
>
>        Eva Balogh

OK, who is Csurka, who is Lezsa'k, and what are the "kuruc" and "labanc"
wings of the MDF?

How long has it been since you visited Hungary? I would be interested to
know what your impressions are of the changes since you were there last? You
were quite upset about Bokros's resignation. Having now been there, do you
still feel as pessimistic as you did before you left?

I would love to read your comments.

Nagyon sze'pen ko:szo:no:m,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
>
>

At 11:39 PM 3/9/96 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>Na alljon meg az a budos gozhenger egy pillanatra! Who 'is looking down' on
>the Americans? What is this bullshit about?

        Well, I tried to defend you but obviously you didn't appreciate it,
although someone wrote to me that my note was "nice and gentle." Sorry, if I
offended you--I do hope you noticed that I included myself as one of those
who once upon the time were newcomers here. I am sure that my attitudes were
very similar to yours but since I have changed.

        And one more thing. It is not very attractive to fly off the handle!
We Hungarians are apt to lose our tempers far too quickly.

>No, kedves Eva, you are wrong. The root of problem is that Sam is an idealist
>and I am not.

        That's not how I see it. You are cynical as, unfortunately, most
Hungarians are. Here and there there is such a thing as altruism,
compassion, and other decent things in life.

>I do not believe that ANY POLITICAL POWER (not even the USA) do
>anything just for 'civilization','greater good', 'mankind'. That is why
>Sam considers me as Anti-Americanist.

        Who said that the Americans entered the war for purely atruistic
reasons. Of course, not. They entered because they felt that it was not to
their advantage for Germany to have a dominant position in Europe.

>So, please, Eva reserve your speculations to your
>gentleman on Forum, but let me alone.

        I certainly will oblige. At one point I made the decision not to
answer one of your private letters because I found the tone of it
unacceptable. I should have stuck with my decision.

>I am not your little ill cat to talk
>about me like that, I am older than you think.

        Age has nothing to do with wisdom.

>And you were upset about the
>'Evikem'!?

        I wasn't upset about it for myself. I was upset with that whole
general attitude.

        Eva Balogh

At 08:32 AM 3/10/96 -0400, Johanne wrote:

>Do you think that this is a symptom [anti-Jewish sentiments] of the old
common tendency, especially
>visible in the past in Germany and Russia, of people to use the Jews as
>scapegoats for their problems? In the case of Hungary, are the people
>looking for an identifiable group that they can blame for the economic
>problems of the country?

        Yes, I think so.

>I know relatively little about the history of Hungary since 1920, but I have
>always understood that the Jews were accepted there as Hungarians and
>recognized themselves as Hungarians, and that they therefore had much more
>freedom, faced much less persecution than elsewhere and therefore were able
>to make outstanding contributions to Hungarian society. Would you agree with
>this? Was there actually a lot of resentment against the Jews all along that
>was just masked?

        Yes, this is all true. Hungary's Jewish population, for the most
part, was indistinguishable from the rest of society; i.e., they didn't
speak a different language and became 100 percent Hungarian within a
generation or two. Intermarriages were frequent, Magyarization of names
(from German mostly) very common. Hungarian Jews became very prominent both
in industry and in the professions. Just a few statistics from the 1920s:
over 50 percent of all lawyers, 46 percent of all doctors, 41 percent of all
veterinarians, 25 percent of writers and artists, 35 percent of journalists,
23 percent of all actors were Jewish. I don't think that I have to continue
to show that Jews played a very important part in the life of the country.
As for industry and commerce, before the war 10 percent of industrialists
were Jewish and in commerce we find a very large Jewish segment: 45 percent.
With the holocaust and the introduction of communism all that has changed:
Jewish industrialists and people in trade or commerce either fell victim of
the holocaust or have been eliminited from commercial life. Since in 1944
most of those who were deported came from the provinces while a large
percentage of the Jewish population of Budapest survived, Hungarian Jewry
could be found almost exclusively in the professions, especially the media,
universities, humanities, social sciences, etc. Thus, Jewish role in
Hungarian cultural life is still substantial.

        I think the common gripe is that in spite of the political
vicissitudes the ordinary non-Jewish Hungarian perceives a continuous Jewish
presence in certain professions and resents it. The usual stuff of
resentment, mixed with accusations of collaboration with the communists.
This is, of course, nonsense. Not only the Jews collaborated with the former
regime, everybody did. Just to give you a figure, the MSZMP (the Hungarian
communist party under Kadar) had something like 800,000 members. According
to estimates, Hungary today has a Jewish population of 100-120,000!


>Would it be fair to say that there is a larger population of people of
>Jewish heritage today in Hungary than in other countries of Eastern Europe?

        Yes, most the Jews of Eastern Europe (excluding Russia) were
eliminated. Hungary is the only country with a sizeable Jewish population.


>How would the population compare with that in the countries of Western Europe?

        I really don't know but you may gather from the above that in
Hungary the Jewish population constitutes about 1-1.5 percent of the population
!


>OK, who is Csurka, who is Lezsa'k, and what are the "kuruc" and "labanc"
>wings of the MDF?

        Istvan Csurka is/was a very talented Hungarian playwright who has
gotten himself involved in politics, originally within the MDF (Magyar
Demokrata Forum). He has become increasingly nationalistic and antisemitic
until he was forced to leave the MDF. Established his own party called MIEP,
which is an openly antisemitic party and which received 1-2 percent of the
votes at the last election. Kuruc/labanc comparison goes back to the Rakoczi
rebellion late 17th and early 18th centuries) when the "kurucok" were the
ones who fought on the side of Rakoczi for the "Hungarian cause," while
those on the side of the Habsburgs were called "labancok." Lezsak is the
leader of the nationalistic, populist wing of the MDF while Ivan Szabo and
others are more conservative, less nationalistic. That's why Andras jokingly
called the two wings "kuruc" and "labanc."

>How long has it been since you visited Hungary? I would be interested to
>know what your impressions are of the changes since you were there last?

        I was there two years ago and again this time. I didn't see much
change, except the houses are crumbling even more so than two years ago. And
eople are more and more nostalgic when it comes to the Kadar regime. They
completely forgot the bad things and remember only the good things: that is,
almost full employment (artifically maintained) and security. Especially
they don't quite know how to deal with the idea of what they perceive to be
lack of security. The average Hungarian would love to have everything they
have now (full stores, freedom of speech, tree travel, convertible currency,
etc.) plus everything they had then. They are frightened by capitalism and
want something between the "existing socialism" and "capitalism." When I
tell them that that is impossible they don't believe me. What I found very
disturbing was that the average Hungarian has no concept of personal freedom
and don't seem to be able to see that that personal freedom was missing even
in the "soft" phase of Kadar's socialism. They don't really give a damn
about what I personall consider so terribly important: freedom!

>You
>were quite upset about Bokros's resignation. Having now been there, do you
>still feel as pessimistic as you did before you left?

        No! It is very possible that Peter Medgyessy will be able to
continue the reforms and there will be only change in tone. Bokros was not a
diplomatic person and stepped on too many toes. There are some people on the
Internet who feel that the reform of the social security system (basically
pension and medical care) will not take place now. We will see! I would have
been terribly upset if Horn appointed Tamas Suchman, currently privatization
minister without portfolio, to be finance minister because I don't like
Suchman and I don't like his politics--he belongs to the left wing of the
MSZP (Magyar Szocialista Part).

        I hope I answered all your questions.

        Eva Balogh

In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> writes:

> During the
>first few years the newcomer often misinterprets what he sees or what he
>hears. There is a tendency to "look down" on Americans, a tendency to
view
>your own country through pink glasses: every comparison you make is in
favor
>of the country, continent you are accustomed to. I am sure that others on
>this list who have been in this country for many, many years will be able
to
>attest to the above. I think this is the problem with Janos--give him
some
>time: eventually most of us get it!
>
>Eva Balogh
>
>
>

Okay, if you say so. I just hope Janos sticks around long enough to "get
it."
Sam Stowe

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>Hungarians celebrate International Womens Day (which is today) with
flowers
>and greetings, not put-downs.
>
>Joe Szalai

Show me empirical evidence that she's female. Up until now, I've been
using "she" and "her" in reference to her out of pity. Say, aren't you
going to offer some kind of fraternal greetings on this, International
Women's Day? And wouldn't you normally consider flowers a sexist gift?
What makes you think International Women's Day allows you to suspend the
immutable laws of ultrafashionable political correctness, you, you,
penis-owner, you? You will immediately submit a 3,000-word analysis of
your blatant sexism and its origin in capitalist exploitive attitudes and
humbly beg forgiveness from enlightened womynhood everywhere. Oh, and
change the oil in the car, mow the lawn, take out the garbage and walk the
dog while you're at it.
Sam Stowe

In article >, "Amos J. Danube"
> writes:

> I don't think I need to convice anybody on the list about Sam's
>fairness, honesty, and civility,
>                                     Amos
>
>

And you still haven't addressed my concerns with your previous post.
Granted, it's pretty obvious that you're going to continue hiding behind
your pseudonym, so you have little worthwhile to offer anyone about the
issue of honesty. And civility in response to extremism is ludicrously
lame. And fairness? I think the gentleman's views have been fairly
represented in my posts. They really aren't teaching you much at Rutgers,
are they? It's either that or you're not picking up a lot of what they are
trying to teach you. (which would be my guess.)
Sam Stowe

Oh....please....cut it out !  This is so sensless.

Thanking you in advance,

MEP
Silverbird

In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> writes:

> I am not trying to whitewash the Hungarian administration but the
>so-called Magyarization prior to 1918 has been greatly exaggerated.

I agree whole-heartedly, although that wasn't the gist of my post. My
point was that even Bourne, the most likely American intellectual to
question American involvement in the hostilities, was no fan of Hungary.
As far as Magyarization goes, it was no more sinister than the
urbanization that swept through this country between 1890-1920. In fact,
the urbanization process here affected a much greater percentage of the
population.

Eva, here's a question that may not be exactly your area of expertise, but
I'll ask it anyway. It seems to me that American attitudes toward Hungary
in that period leading up to the U.S. entry into the First World War would
have been less punitive in nature had there been some kind of
Hungarian-American community to mediate between the two societies. I know
a lot of Hungarians came here in the latter part of the 1800s, but most
were working class folks with no time or ability to organize the kind of
sophisticated political groups we see among, say, German Bundists of the
period. But there was an earlier group of Hungarians that came here in the
1840s following the uprising against the Habsburgs. What happened to their
children and grandchildren? Why weren't they in there trying to re-educate
the American public in the period before our entry into the war?
Sam Stowe

In article >,
Janos Zsargo > writes:

> The revisionism (especially by force)
>is only a creation of Sam's paranoid mind, and this has nothing to do
where-
>ever I am on the Globe. So, please, Eva reserve your speculations to your
>gentleman on Forum, but let me alone. I am not your little ill cat to
talk
>about me like that, I am older than you think. And you were upset about
the
>'Evikem'!?
>
>Janos

You really need to quit while you're ahead, Janos. Every time you take a
swing at this tar baby, you're getting yourself caught in it deeper and
deeper. You waltz in here, spout out some nonsense you picked up either
from a family member or a teacher back in the old country and then the
wheels fall off your wagon when someone dares to point this out to you.
And jumping on Eva doesn't improve matters for you -- she knows more about
this period of history than you or I are ever likely to pick up. I fear an
education at an American university is likely to be wasted on you.
Sam Stowe

In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> says:
>
>At 12:43 PM 3/9/96 GMT, George Szaszvari wrote first quoting me:
>>>Indeed,
>>>it is hard to imagine that (1) the Latin language of a few Roman garrisons
>>>could have had such an impact;
>>[snip]
>>
>>Without wishing to become directly embroiled in the question of *who
>>were the real ancestors of the modern Romanians?* (for now, anyway),
>>I'd just like to say that surviving Roman place names are not really
>>that *odd*.
>
>        No, place names are not at all odd. As the matter of fact, they are
>very durable.

That's what I said in my previous statement, more or less, didn't I? Grrr.

>        No, I don't forget that the Roman impact was strong, but Roman
>presence in Dacia was very short. They occupied Pannonia around 8-10 B.C.
>while Dacia was occupied only in 105-106 A.D. and by 271 the Romans
>abandoned the province.

Not completely. Emperor Aurelian abandoned that part of Dacia north
of the Danube. Dacia south of the Danube remained in the Prefecture of
Illyricum until the arrival of the Huns (and their allies.) From the
time that emperor Trajan annexed (Greater) Dacia many peoples from within
the Roman Empire colonized the province. Even after Aurelian's discreet
redrawing of the Dacian (Roman) frontier to the Danube, there was
productive co-existence between the Goths, colonists and Romans. Direct
Roman influence must have been pretty strong in all that time. Many Goths
(and others) went over to the Roman side on the arrival of the Huns, but
the then teetering Empire didn't consolidate this advantage, estranged
the refugees and finally emperor Valens blew it at Adrianople (Thrace)
378AD.

>Pannonia, on the other hand, belonged to the Empire
>for well over 300 years. Yet, the Latin geographic names, for the most part,
>disappeared by the time of the Hungarian arrival. Instead, just like in the
>former Dacia, a lot of Slavic place names have survived to this day.

I don't know about the Slavic impact on place names, but the Roman
Empire (of the East, that is, in the West the empire became a group of
kingdoms) was not extinguished by the campaigns of the Huns and Vandals:
after they came and went emperors continued to reign from Constantinople
and included Dacia south of the Danube as part of the Eastern Empire.

>        I am certainly no expert when it comes to early history of the
>region but, relying on some reading and using common sense, I find it very
>hard to believe that Latinized Dacs could survive the onslaught of the
>Avars, the Gepidas, the Visigoths, the Huns, and God knows who else when all
>of these people have disappeared without a trace since!

I'm not sure that the influences of all these peoples have disappeared
without a trace; overshadowed by the much more *durable* Roman culture,
perhaps. I suppose one would need to dig a lot a deeper and seek out
the specialists.

I'm not an *expert*, either, but just want to point out that Roman
influence on Dacia (and a lot of other places) was around for very
much longer than the first couple of centuries AD. Even without Roman
military conquests of the ceasars Latin was still the lingua franca of
the educated classes in Europe for centuries after (courtesy of the
Church and Charlemagne's Holy Roman Empire.)

This is an interesting subject and I hope to see more input on the thread
(about ancestral influences and origins) but I'm not sure what you are
trying to say when you claim that Slavic influence seems to be dominant
on the one hand and that Roman influence is also strong (or *durable*,
but not in Pannonia or Dacia!) on the other. Perhaps I missed something
in an earlier posting on this thread. I'll try to do some *archaeological
digging* on previous posts and make some sense of it ;-)

God bless,

George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
Independent Commodore Products User Group ** Commodore=64 stuff wanted
* ACCU ** ARM Club ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list *

In article >,
Janos Zsargo > writes:

>Anyone who is interested in can read the debate over and can have his or
>her own opinion. I think I tried to be detailed and support my ideas with
>recitements. I DID literature search, I went to the library for book(s)
>on the subject. Yes I agree I do not have the affinity to believe that
>the antante (and the US) was the 'good' and the central powers was the
>'bad' in WWI. If this is Anti-Americanism than I am Anti-American. But
>I am sorry I cannot imagine my Grandfather who fought in the austro-
>hungarian army when he was a 17 as a barbarian.
>
>Janos

Ah, here we finally reach the core of the problem. Janos, I never said
your grandfather was a barbarian. And your loyalty to your grandfather is
admirable. But it's perfectly acceptable to love him and honor his service
in that war and realize at the same time that the cause he fought for
wasn't worth the fig. As a rational adult, you have that right, you know.
Sam Stowe

Lo all,

I was told that the Rock Theater performed an English language version of
EVITA by Andre Lloyd Webber in Budapest about 2 summers ago with some
Enlgish and Emrican Star...does anyone have any info on it and  how it
went?

Thanks

Dear fellow-listmembers,

In looking at the entry of the US into WWI, it's worth it to remember that
when Wilson asked congress for a declaration of war in April, 1917, it was
a declaration of war _against Germany_, and war was not officially declared
on Austria-Hungary until December of that year.  Many of the leading emigre
nationalists, including the Czechoslovaks, were worried for quite some time
that the US was not going to declare war on Austria, or that a separate
peace would be concluded before an Entente commitment to partition of the
old A-H was made.

There's an interesting book devoted to the question of the immigrants and
their influence on US policy:

Joseph P. O'Grady, ed., _The Immigrants' Influence on Wilson's Peace
Policies_ (Lexington, Kentucky: University of Kentucky Press, 1967).

Also worth looking at is the old, but not entirely superseded standard:

Victor S. Mamatey, _The United States and East-Central Europe, 1914-1919:
A Study in Wilsonian Diplomacy and Propaganda_ (Princeton: Princeton Uni-
versity Press, 1957).

A more recent work looking in particular at the question of the birth of
Czechoslovakia is

Betty Miller Unterberger, _The United States, Revolutionary Russia, and the
Rise of Czechoslovakia_ (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press,
1989).

As I recall, it was Mamatey's conclusion that the immigrants' attempts
to influence policy were expensive failures, or at best half-successes,
that at most speeded up America's decisions along lines they would almost
certainly have taken in any case.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

I have difficulty of finding the letters by Charlies and Amos concerning the
article about corruption in Hungary and how it affects foreign language
teachers but basically it was the question on the author's reliability
concerning the facts. I read the article too and admittedly he doesn't
mention too many specifics, but, I don't think that you can blame him for
that. He could encounter quite a bit of trouble by naming names. So, we
don't know for sure whether there is any basis for these accusations or not.
However, I would be cautious in dismissing them out of hand. Corruption is
so-so bad in Hungary that I wouldn't be surprised by anything! Surely, what
Mr. Horvath must do is to go the ministry and see what could be done, if
anything.

Eva Balogh

I was offered this email address as a posting forum for genealogical
information. Upon watching the political mail war, I am beginning to
wonder if,in fact, I was given the right address at all.
I will continue to watch to see if anything other than debate
surfaces. Whereas I can certainly appreciate your knowledge on such
topics, I can only assume that I am a much simpler man.
As you continue to debate man's atrocities, I will continue searching
for my family heritage and record man's joys.
Randy and Linda (Gillotti) Bruner


Searching for Randy: BRUNER,PETTIT,GABOR,LATHOM,LEEP,KEY,
MAYES,NORMAN,LIGHTFOOT,SYDOR,BARFIELD,SLISHER,SCHLEIPFER

for Linda:GILLOTTI, FUSCI, TOMAINO, CASALE, ROCCO,
DE GRAZIA, BONONE, FIORITO

and who knows what else......

Eva Balogh, who was sorely missed on this channel while she was away
and is happily welcomed back, wrote:
>
>I have difficulty of finding the letters by Charlies and Amos
concerning the
>article about corruption in Hungary and how it affects foreign
language
>teachers but basically it was the question on the author's reliability
>concerning the facts. I read the article too and admittedly he doesn't
>mention too many specifics, but, I don't think that you can blame him
for
>that. He could encounter quite a bit of trouble by naming names. So,
we
>don't know for sure whether there is any basis for these accusations
or not.
>However, I would be cautious in dismissing them out of hand.
Corruption is
>so-so bad in Hungary that I wouldn't be surprised by anything! Surely,
what
>Mr. Horvath must do is to go the ministry and see what could be done,
if
>anything.
>
>Eva Balogh
>


Dear Eva, let me clarify my comments concerning the Horvath article.

 Mr Horvath presented a litany of fradulent activities by Hungarian
schools in cheating somewhat naive foreign teachers out their fair
compensation.  Furthermore, he stated that Hungarian authorities,
including the Ministry of Culture, turned a deaf ear on any complaints
and dismissed them with a sympathetic shrug.

I have no idea if Mr Horvath's statements are true or not.

If they are not true, Mr Horvath deserves our wrath for making
irresponsible, untrue statements.

But if they are true, they should be fully investigated, based on
actual cases.  If they turn out to be true, American (as well as other)
teachers planning to go to Hungary  should be warned about the
potential dangers.

By the way, I have to say that so far neither Mr Horvath nor anyone on
the 'Net has come forward with an actual, precedent setting case.

I guess the [abreviated] purpose of my original letter to Mr Horvath
was to say :  s**t or get off the pot.

Regards

Charlie Vamossy

I will be in Budapest in late May of this year.  I am a printer and would like
to arrange a visit to a printing plant
in Buda or Pest.  I am always interested in visiting printing plants whenever I
am in a different city.  Could
someone suggest how I might arrange this? I will be on holiday and will have
adequate time to arrange a visit.

Please email me direct.

Bob Johnson
Dallas

Hello,

I have found a couple of links on the web with my last name on them. I know
next to nothing about my Hungarian heritage thanks in part to an introverted
father who came here from Budapest in 1954. I'm not even sure how prevalent
"Kudasz" is in Hungary.

If you can provide a translation or any info about the following links I'd
be grateful.

thanks

http://garfield.sote.hu/sote/tt_ersebp.html
http://agy.bgytf.hu/public/keletm/doc/96_6_3.html

Sam's mollycoddled world unravels under even the slightest criticism.  I
thought that his characterization of Eva Durant as a 'bearded Stalinist
goat' was too much.  So I wrote,

>>Hungarians celebrate International Womens Day (which is today) with
>>flowers and greetings, not put-downs.

Well, Sam's response clearly shows why he should continue with his Prozac
therapy.

>International
>Women's Day? And wouldn't you normally consider flowers a sexist gift?
>What makes you think International Women's Day allows you to suspend the
>immutable laws of ultrafashionable political correctness, you, you,
>penis-owner, you?

Why, thank you, Sam.  But I never would have expected such a public display
of penis envy from you.  I guess y'always live and learn, eh?

Now, can you make Janos Zsargo's day?

Joe Szalai

In the span of one day, Eva Balogh, who once boasted that some people on
Forum consider her a 'dangerous liberal',  tells Janos Zsargo,

>Here and there there is such a thing as altruism, compassion, and other
>decent things in life.

Then, an hour later, commenting on Hungarians today, she tells Johanne L.
Tournier,

>They are frightened by capitalism and
>want something between the "existing socialism" and "capitalism." When I
>tell them that that is impossible they don't believe me.

I believe Eva Balogh is a liberal.  I'm not.  At least not in the sense that
she is.  I find contradictory statements troublesome.  Some people seem to
live with them quite comfortably.

Joe Szalai