Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 767
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-08-23
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: LOOKING FOR IRC HUNGARIAN CHANNEL (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Speaking in many tongues (was Re: American Imperial (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Toronto. (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
6 Himes Tojasok (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Himes Tojasok (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: The Bloody Footprints of the Commissar (2) (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Speaking in many tongues (was Re: American Imperial (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: The Bloody Footprints of the Commissar (2) (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  109 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Bloody footprint of the commissar (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: LOOKING FOR IRC HUNGARIAN CHANNEL (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

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On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, Maria Hetenyi wrote:
> I know two hungarian channels #hungary and #magyar but those are for
> high school or college students.
 That's not what I was told (I don't IRC myself) - I definitely heard from
people way beyond college age; it may be that IRC is mostly used by those,
though. There is #hix used every once in a while too, incidentally.

 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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+ - Re: Speaking in many tongues (was Re: American Imperial (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

> People teaching and learning Spanish in the United
>States is not a cancer on the body politic.  It does not spread.  It is
not
>contagion.
>
>Sure.  You can think it's wrong, and you can think they're making a
mistake.
>But so what?  They're adults and they're not breaking any laws.  And you
did
>say that you were against language laws, didn't you?
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>P.S. E pluribus unum, Sam.  E pluribus unum.
>
>

I've never said it was wrong, Joe. Did you know that I happen to serve as
a Spanish translator for a local police department? Why would I bother to
study the language for over two decades and learn to speak it with native
fluency if I thought it was wrong to teach it and learn it? But there is a
vast difference between learning to read, write and speak Spanish and
devoting an entire high school education to instruction in Spanish. The
former opens you up to a world beyond the borders of the U.S. The latter
constricts your world without you ever having to set foot outside your own
national borders. Once more you speak out of your rear end, cuate. When
you do this in future, I suggest we all refer to you as "assuming the
position."
Sam Stowe

"What a bunch of
 idiots!"
-- Raleigh Mayor
Tom Fetzer during
a recent city council
debate. The comment
was picked up by
Fetzer's microphone
and broadcast on the
city's public access
channel.
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:43:29 -0400, Joe Szalai
> wrote:

>At 05:28 PM 8/18/96 -0700, Eva Balogh, in Re: Toronto, wrote:

[........]
>>And while we are
>>making this kind of generalization, one could safely say that the French, on
>>the whole, don't speak foreign languages and if they do, not well. (Although
>>even that is changing.)
>
>[.....]
>>difficulties learning a new language. Or, those with a cultural superiority
>>complex--see, for example, the French.
>
>The French have a cultural superiority complex?  Really?  If someone asked
>me, who in the world has a cultural superiority complex,  I would, without
>hesitation, say the Hungarians.  If you don't believe me, just listen to
>Hungarians talk about food, music, medicine, math, and sports.
>
>Joe Szalai

Would it be considered arrogance or a "superiority complex" if we
(Hungarians) can deliver the "goods?"

I submit that a nation that has given the world more scientists,
musicians, artists, etc. than any other (PER CAPITA) may have SOME
bragging rights. While the penchant of Hungarians to argue about
anything and everything drives me crazy, I never cease to be amazed
how knowledgeable they are. Taxi-drivers in Budapest, included. :-)

I also submit that the arrogance of the French is unmatched on this
planet.

Perhaps it is the word "complex" with which I have trouble.

Bandi

> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
      <OR>  
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================
+ - Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:28:17 +1000, George Antony
> wrote:

>Partly out of genuine puzzlement, partly to introduce a serious Hungarian
>topic to HUNGARY in addition to the FORUM-style sanctimonious gaybashing/
>Jewbashing/mudslinging that is infesting HUNGARY:
>
>Would anybody know about the background of the US Government's stand that
>has effectively pulled the rug from under the Hungarian Government's
>negotiating position with the Romanian Government re the Basic Treaty
>between the two countries ?
[.........]

George,

I have read the replies (thus far) to your interesting question. It
occurs to me that the readers of this list are all a bunch of very
'nice' people. And idealistic, to boot.

Politics in this country (US) is driven by economic pay-off (when it's
specific and parochial it's called 'pork').

Therefore, cutting through the chase, the answer is simple: 23 million
potential shoppers of American goods are more compelling (for
political decision) than 10.3 million. (Notwithstanding my respect for
Tom Lantos). Maybe I am just cynical.

>George Antony

Bandi
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
      <OR>  
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================
+ - Re: Toronto. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:19:29 -0400, Andy Kozma >
wrote:

[....]

Since this is off the topic, I won't bother to quote....

I just came back from my fourth trip to Toronto (spread over 20
years). I cannot think of a more civilized and pleasant city! What a
delight to visit. Most impressive are the competence and kindness of
service workers, the order, and the safety on the streets.

You are lucky, Andy, to live there. Please don't tell me that that's
just the Downtown....:-)

Cheers,

Bandi
> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
      <OR>  
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================
+ - Himes Tojasok (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Johanne,

Here's the info regarding books which specifically adress the topic of Hungaria
n
eggs:

1)A vara'zsereju" hi'mes toja's  by  Monorine' Rohlik Erzse'bet
  Neutron Kft Kiado', 1990  ISBN 9630277670  pbk  pp. 94

2) Hi'mestoja's (The Art and History of Hungarian Decorated Eggs)  by
   Kerkay Emese  pub'd by The American Hungarian Museum; Passaic, New Jersey
   (This is a small paperback full of designs and interesting facts.)

NOTE: One type of purely Hungarian egg I forgot to mention is the "vasalt
      toja's" or "patkolt toja's."  These are eggs that have pieces of metal
      and nails nailed into them.  Hungarian blacksmiths made these in order
      to show off their skills.  I was really surprised the first time I saw
      them.  I thought they looked like 'S&M eggs!'

BTW, I'd really like to contact your friend who is involved in the Ukrainian
egg writing.  If she creates her original designs or carries on her family's
traditional designs, I'd be happy to trade photos or designs with her.

Thank you,
Mark

PS: I realize Erde'ly is NOT spelled Erdhe'ly.  Sorry.
+ - Re: Himes Tojasok (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mark, are you familiar with the following title?


        Szabo, Elizabeth

        Egg decorating instruction book.
        Pittsburgh, PA. : William Penn Association, c[1987]

It is a 16 page booklet. To the best of my knowledge copies are still
available.

Bob Hosh

+ - Re: The Bloody Footprints of the Commissar (2) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:08 PM 8/21/96 EDT, Csaba Zoltani wrote in connection with Lukacs's
role in the execution of soldiers, running away from the Romanians in 1919:

>In a military organisation, a commander is responsible for what he and his
>subordinates do or fail to do. Commissar Lukacs was in charge. It was
>under his command that eight of his men were executed. The
>responsibility is unequivocal.

        If you are basing your statement on the documents you provided a few
days ago, I don't understand how you can be so sure that (1) Lukacs was the
commander and (2) he was responsible for the decision to execute the
run-away soldiers. Up to now the only thing I read--in the documents you
provided and in books I consulted--that he was the political commissar of an
army unit, fighting the Romanians at the Tisza river. Lukacs, as far as I
know, had no military training. In fact, he spent the war years (1912-1918,
to be precise) in Heidelberg, and, therefore, I suspect that he was exempt
from military service. I can't imagine that anyone would trust someone with
no military training to command a fairly large army unit. On the other hand,
I find it perfectly reasonable that he was named "political commissar."

        The Lukacs quotation Csaba provided gives another clue that Lukacs
was not the commanding officer of the troops because he mentions a certain
Sarai-Szabo, "a good communist," with whom he discussed the matter.
Therefore, I suspect that Sarai-Szabo, the good communist, was in charge.

>If one subscribes to the notion of personal responsibility, then what
>happened elsewhere in 1919 is totally irrelevant in judging this man's
>actions, character and ethics. No argument based on situational ethics
>can exonerate Lukacs.

        I assume you are an impartial man and therefore you judge the
actions, characters and ethics of all people impartially, regardless of
their political beliefs. The number of people who lost their lives after
August 1, 1919 as a result of reprisals, without the benefit of the courts,
is estimated anything between 2,000 and 5,000. (The high number comes from
the same Peter Gosztonyi whom you quoted on Lukacs's role in the
executions.) And even if we deem these numbers too high (as I do), I assume
you would consider the role of those who committed those crimes just as
terrible as that of Lukacs's. Or, I hope that that is the case.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Speaking in many tongues (was Re: American Imperial (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:07 PM 8/21/96 -0400, Sam Stowe wrote:

>I've never said it was wrong, Joe. Did you know that I happen to serve as
>a Spanish translator for a local police department? Why would I bother to
>study the language for over two decades and learn to speak it with native
>fluency if I thought it was wrong to teach it and learn it? But there is a
>vast difference between learning to read, write and speak Spanish and
>devoting an entire high school education to instruction in Spanish. The
>former opens you up to a world beyond the borders of the U.S. The latter
>constricts your world without you ever having to set foot outside your own
>national borders. Once more you speak out of your rear end, cuate. When
>you do this in future, I suggest we all refer to you as "assuming the
>position."
>Sam Stowe

You're cornered, Sam!  And your anal-expulsiveness is showing.  Do you
expect me to believe that those who are "devoting an entire high school
education to instruction in Spanish" are incapable of speaking English.?
Give me a break, senor.  I know people in Ontario who had all their
schooling in French.  And d'ya know what?  Their 'ingles' is flawless!  ?Es
posible?  Si!

And there are people on this newsgroup who had all their high school
education in Hungarian.  Do they seem at a loss?  Is their world
constricted?  What constricts someones world is not whether or not their
instruction was in Spanish, French, Hungarian or English, but that they have
only high school education.  Look where that's gotten Peter Soltesz!

I think your fear and concern is misplaced.  I think that what you're really
afraid of is the continued spread of Spanish in the United States.  Just own
up to it, Sam.

And I'm not speaking out of my rear end.  That's just the sensation you
experience when you have your ear butted against my ... well, butt.  As for
"assuming the position", just keep in mind that if you fart upwind, only you
benefit.

Joe Szalai

"Only Socrates knew, after a lifetime of unceasing labor, that he was
ignorant. Now every high-school student knows that. How did it become so easy?"
          Allan Bloom
+ - Re: The Bloody Footprints of the Commissar (2) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Aug 22,  7:48am, Eva S. Balogh wrote:
> Subject: Re: The Bloody Footprints of the Commissar (2)
>         I assume you are an impartial man and therefore you judge the
> actions, characters and ethics of all people impartially, regardless of
> their political beliefs. The number of people who lost their lives after
> August 1, 1919 as a result of reprisals, without the benefit of the courts,
> is estimated anything between 2,000 and 5,000. (The high number comes from
> the same Peter Gosztonyi whom you quoted on Lukacs's role in the
> executions.) And even if we deem these numbers too high (as I do), I assume
> you would consider the role of those who committed those crimes just as
> terrible as that of Lukacs's. Or, I hope that that is the case.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>-- End of excerpt from Eva S. Balogh
-------------------------------------

       No, Csaba is not impartial and he doesn't intend to be one.
    He is bashing Lukacs because he was a communist. Period.
       I have tried to stay away from this,  but since some of the
    people are shamelessly  unfair about the topic,  I need to say
    something.
       I know next to nothing about Lukacs.  I don't know anything
    about the person or the philosopher.  And I don't intend to do
    anything about this lack of knowledge. But ...
       You guys either have  not been in a war or  you pretend you
    have not been in one.  War is not a debating society nor is it
    a democracy.  War is HELL!  Still,  every commanding officer's
    primary duty is not  to let his unit's savety  be compromised.
    And it doesn't matter whether the danger is only perceived. It
    is real to the person involved.  Summary executions  happen on
    the frontline all the time. If Lukacs was facing such a danger
    he had all the right, nay the duty by the rules of war,  to do
    what is deemed to be necessary.  And that includes summary ex-
    ecutions.
       The feeble attempt at comparison  does not serve to support
    the biased Lukacs bashing.  The GI  everybody knows  about was
    executed after  having been  "courtmarshalled".   Nobody knows
    about the  countless GI's who  were executed summarily  on the
    frontline. Unless the people involved  decide to talk that is.
    And practically nobody will do that.
       Get real guys! Having been a communist is not the source of
    all evil. And until and uless  you learn this,  you will fight
    imagined enemies. What a waste of energy and time.
       Do you want to be a good Hungarian patriot? Extend your ef-
    forts at building the country, not fighting the past.
       I have put my vest on,
                              Amos
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:25 AM 8/22/96 GMT, Andrew J. Rozsa wrote:

>I submit that a nation that has given the world more scientists,
>musicians, artists, etc. than any other (PER CAPITA) may have SOME
>bragging rights. While the penchant of Hungarians to argue about
>anything and everything drives me crazy, I never cease to be amazed
>how knowledgeable they are. Taxi-drivers in Budapest, included. :-)

Is your submission for real?  Has there ever been a per capita study of this?
Joe Szalai
+ - Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:53 AM 8/22/96 GMT, Andrew J. Rozsa wrote:

>I have read the replies (thus far) to your interesting question. It
>occurs to me that the readers of this list are all a bunch of very
>'nice' people. And idealistic, to boot.
>
>Politics in this country (US) is driven by economic pay-off (when it's
>specific and parochial it's called 'pork').
>
>Therefore, cutting through the chase, the answer is simple: 23 million
>potential shoppers of American goods are more compelling (for
>political decision) than 10.3 million. (Notwithstanding my respect for
>Tom Lantos). Maybe I am just cynical.

I don't think you are.

Joe Szalai

"The great nations have always acted like gangsters, and the small nations
like prostitutes."
                   Stanley Kubrick
+ - Re: US Govt role in Hungarian-Romanian negotiations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

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At 03:53 AM 8/22/96 GMT, Andrew J. Rozsa wrote:
>I have read the replies (thus far) to your interesting question. It
>occurs to me that the readers of this list are all a bunch of very
>'nice' people. And idealistic, to boot.
 Maybe, but not as idealistic as you are, apparently ;-(.
>[...]
>Therefore, cutting through the chase, the answer is simple: 23 million
>potential shoppers of American goods are more compelling (for
>political decision) than 10.3 million.

 I think you're too naive to think that a mere ten or twenty million
people (and particularly such a poor prospective customer base as we or
them are) would seriously weigh into USA decisions, if any - in any event
the default mode seems to be 'let's not decide just yet' which is
apparently what happened here too.
 It's highly unlikely that anything but the opinion of the Russians on
the one hand, and the western Europeans' (if they ever unify to have one)
on the other will enter the equation with any significance, period.

> Maybe I am just cynical.
 Not enough, I'm afraid ;-<...
 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>>Joe Szalai wrote:
>>The French have a cultural superiority complex?  Really?  If someone asked
>>me, who in the world has a cultural superiority complex,  I would, without
>>hesitation, say the Hungarians.  If you don't believe me, just listen to

>Andrew J. Rozsa replied:
>I also submit that the arrogance of the French is unmatched on this
>planet.

I beg to differ, you would be hard pressed to match a hard line White South
African.
(Africana??)

GarryC
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 20 Aug 1996, Mark Humphreys wrote:

> Peter Soltesz wrote:
>
> > It would be nice if mankind could figure out that we all, regardless of
 ethnic
> > color, race, religion basically put on our pants the same way, etc. after
 all
> > we are made of the same thing.  Lots of people in the States and Canada say
> > that we are (or should be equal... that is wrong.  Some are given more in
 one
> > thing than others yet no one is perfect. We have equal protection under the
> > law, but not in other things.
>
> I agree with much of the above.  Mr. Soltesz, how can you write such positive
> statements about equality yet totally contradict yourself when it comes to ga
y
> people? Do they put they pants and dress and uniforms on differently than
 other
> people????  Unfortunately, not everybody does have equal protection under the
> law in many places; that is why many issues are being adressed.
+ Mark: to try to clarify, in the uS and hopefully elsewhere as well, one
+ can be (and is) protected under the law. This does not mean that
+ gays, for example, are allowed to marry, collect insurance and other
+ benefits, etc. Perhaps one needs to ask a fundamental question which
+ seems not to have been asked yet (regarding gays). Why is it that for
+ eons there was this "prejudice" against them??? (Answer: because of
+ fact that NO religion has ever tolerated it. It is considered a trend
+ against God and nature (in spite of what Joe Szalai claims).

>
> Why can't you take a hate story against Hungarians and replace the word "Hun-
> garian" with the word "gay."  When is it o.k. generally hate?  Like Joe Szala
i
> said, why does something have to be written by someone else for it to be ac-
> ceptable?  I wonder how much advancement we all would have made if we kept on
> looking backwards instead of trying to strive ahead.  Anyway, a strict
 Buddhist
> sees both hetero- and homosexuality as being "bad" or unnecessary bec. neithe
r
> lead you away from this emotional Earth and on to a higher level.  There are 
a
> lot of historical documents regarding sailor's encoutering sea-monsters and
> falling off the Earth, but I don't think that makes it true.  I, yes, I was
> never mentioned or recognized by any documents or in earlier civilizations,
 yet
> I exist just the same.
+ Unfortunatelly, you are dumping many things in this paragraph, but let me
+ try this:  For example I do not have problems with (XXX or YYY) because
+ from my perspective what Gays and Abortioninst do is wrong. However, I
+ am willing to state that it is between them and GOD. They will have to face
+ the "music" at the appropriate time (even for those non-God believers).
+ What I do object to is the fact that I as a taxpayer,as a citizen,, etc.
+ have to pay to perform abortions or support gays (and their lifestyle -
+ potential other expenses) from a public fund (namely my pocket, et al).

>
> Yes, many people need churches, but they shouldn't ram them down the throats
 of
> those who don't!  It's like a cripple being jealous of others who walk w/
 their
> own legs so they try to hit the healthy walkers with their crutches and make
> them cripple too!
>
> Mr. Soltesz, what do you mean: "Yet the truth always wins in the end."?  Has
 the
> world already ended???  For me, the world is more like a never-ending circle
 of
> change... often for the better.  Where's the end?
+
+ What I mean by that is simple...one day(whether or not one believes) the
+ ultimate truth will come out [regarless of how it was twisted or hidden]
+ For some it is a never ending circle (as in the Hindu), but even there
+ they have a goal and a timetable....how do you know when your time is up?
+
 (Your message on God's Tenure was funny.)
>
> I'll end this message. Your egg message just appeared on the list, so I'll
 read
> that.
>
> Thanks
> - Mark
>
+
+
One more thing...I know several gay people and worked with one. I do not have
ill will or feeling toward them. I object to much of the lewd public
beaviour seen on TV etc. and I would not want my children to see those
things.

But more importantly the main issue is that ALL of us have some failings.
If we were perfect (we would not be here!).......
In some previous message(s) there were implications (not necessarily yours)
that if one is gay then they are damned to hell (or something like that).
The fact is that there are many potential failings in all of us. Some of
us have a few, some have many, and I am sure some are really good and
some are really evil. In my take, it is a combination of what you do and
how you do it that will ultimately count at the end.

If someone can show that there are errors in  your (generic) ways and you
can see them then you have made progress.

I am against the generic concept (practiced lately in the USA) is to equilize
everyone. Instead of trying to achieve, they try to force the achievers
to do worse or make less money, etc. to average the population down. That
is why we are suffering from poor school systems among other things.

Well that's it for my side. Thanx.. Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:29 PM 8/22/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:

>+ Mark: to try to clarify, in the uS and hopefully elsewhere as well, one
>+ can be (and is) protected under the law. This does not mean that
>+ gays, for example, are allowed to marry, collect insurance and other
>+ benefits, etc.

        As you know the Hungarian Constitutional Court granted gay/lesbian
couples the quasi benefits of marital state. To be more precise: in legal
terms a gay/lesbian couple of long standing have the same rights as
heterosexual couples. And I don't see anything wrong with this. In fact, I
think a wrong was righted in this case. We all know about homosexual
relationships which lasted as long, if not longer, as heterosexual
marriages. I know a lesbian couple who have been living together for almost
thirty years. One can pick up the New York Times almost daily and find that
X or Y lived together for twenty-thirty years when one of the partners died.
Why shouldn't this homosexual partner have the same legal rights as the
heterosexual one? Do you find it equitable that in case a homosexual couple
buys a house together and if one is deceased the other will have to pay
inheritance tax on the half when in the case of a heterosexual couple this
is not the case? Or what about those homosexual couples who must live in
different countries because they happen to be of the same sex and the
partner cannot settle in the country because they are not married. If it was
a heterosexual couple the wife or husband would have no difficulty entering
the other's place of birth or citizenship. I know one such couple which have
been forced to live in different countries for eighteen years. Is this fair?

>Why is it that for
>+ eons there was this "prejudice" against them??? (Answer: because of
>+ fact that NO religion has ever tolerated it. It is considered a trend
>+ against God and nature (in spite of what Joe Szalai claims).

        This is not even correct.
>For example I do not have problems with (XXX or YYY) because
>+ from my perspective what Gays and Abortioninst do is wrong. However, I
>+ am willing to state that it is between them and GOD. They will have to face
>+ the "music" at the appropriate time (even for those non-God believers).

        An abortionist is different from a homosexual. A homosexual doesn't
chose his sexual orientation. The abortionist has a choice of giving or not
giving birth. I'm not sure why a homosexual should face "the music," to use
your expression, when God created him this way. God seems to be responsible
for his state.

>+ What I do object to is the fact that I as a taxpayer,as a citizen,, etc.
>+ have to pay to perform abortions or support gays (and their lifestyle -
>+ potential other expenses) from a public fund (namely my pocket, et al).

        I don't see how you as a taxpaper is supporting gays, unless you
mean AIDS patients. However, please, keep in mind that AIDS is becoming more
and more a heterosexual disease.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:29 PM 8/22/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:

>This does not mean that gays, for example, are allowed to marry, collect
>insurance and other benefits, etc.

>Why is it that for eons there was this "prejudice" against them???

>because of fact that NO religion has ever tolerated it.

>It is considered a trend against God and nature (in spite of what Joe
Szalai claims).

>However, I am willing to state that it is between them and GOD.

>They will have to face the "music" at the appropriate time (even for those
non-God believers).

>What I do object to is the fact that I as a taxpayer,as a citizen,, etc.
>have to pay to perform abortions or support gays (and their lifestyle -
>potential other expenses) from a public fund (namely my pocket, et al).

>I object to much of the lewd public beaviour seen on TV etc. and I would
not >want my children to see those things.

Will you just stop writing this homophobic nonsense and get to your point.
What is the final solution regarding gays?  You don't have to quote from
holy books.  Just tell us in your own words.  Will you do that?  Hmmm?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 05:09 PM 8/22/96 -0700, Eva Balogh, responding to Peter Soltesz, wrote:

>A homosexual doesn't chose his sexual orientation.

Obviously, I agree, but I'd like to ask this.  What if sexual orientation
is, indeed, a choice?  Should choice be respected?  And should all choices
be equal under the law?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Bloody footprint of the commissar (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Csaba Zoltani wrote:

>>It does make some difference if a soldier is 'coward' thousands
>>of miles from his/her home, or do the same in the middle of
>>it ....
>
>While this sounds like a reasonable premise, in fact, in combat whether
>you are in your own backyard or in the jungles of Guadalcanal, cowardice,
>i.e. putting the survival of an individual's group at risk, is not
>judged differently.

Yes, maybe this is written in handbooks. As far as I know it was written
in the 'szolgalati szabalyzat' (~ 'handbook of military regulations') of
the Wehrmacht that abusing civilians is strickly forbidden. You know
there is a saying 'a papir sokmindent elbir' and another 'es sokmindenre
lehet hasznalni'.

>judged differently. Parenthetically, as many studies have shown, a
>soldier fights for personal survival and for his immediate group;
>"homeland" and other abstract ideas are rather remote at the sound of
>of "incoming"!

If this is universally true for all soldier, I wonder how this was working
in the case of the japanese 'kamikaze'?

J.Zs

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