Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 178
Copyright (C) HIX
1994-12-29
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Felejtek magyarul... (mind)  60 sor     (cikkei)
2 Bicycle Touring in Hungary? (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: We are #1 (fwd) for Charles (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: We are #1 (fwd) for Charles (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: We are #1 (fwd) for Charles (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
6 Lustration law (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: biological relationship (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: biological relationship (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)
9 Honfoglals--occupation (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
10 Honfoglalas--occupation (mind)  85 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Orange blood (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Honfoglalas--occupation (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Honfoglalas--occupation (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Honfoglalas/conquest (mind)  116 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: "Keseru Ifjusag" (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Felejtek magyarul... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Nem nagyon ertem hogy hogy is megy ez az egesz
HIX-cum-soc.culture.magyar dolog.  Majd figyelem/olvasom
meg egy par hetig es csak megfejtem en a titkat.
Termeszetesen, az hogy csak egy par hete "fedeztem fel"
az Internet-et (ez ellot csak a BBS-eket latogattam,
mar vagy tiz eve) az nem nagyon segit a megertesevel.
Bocs a hibasos irasert.... Erdelyi letemre, roman
iskolaban jartam, es csak sajat magam tanitottam magyarul
irni, ugy hogy tobb mint valloszinu hogy sok a hiba.
-----
After over 30 years in this country (spent mostly in the
South) I have been isolated from my compatriots and I
have started forgetting my mother-tongue (Hungarian).
It became fairly obvious when I visited Budapest 2 years
ago (went back to Nagyvarad for my high-school graduation
reunion).

I figure I could maintain a semblance of staying in touch
with the language with appropriate reading materials.
Many years ago, by sheer happenstance, I came across a
magazine that since has changed hands, format, and content
several times, in its latest incarnation being "Magyarok
Vilagnapja."  Not particularly illuminating or well-written,
but better than nothing. I also get a weekly newspaper from
California, Uj Vilag, that may have had some redeeming
qualities a while back, but its strident tone as of late is
REALLY getting on my nerves. I have asked my step-father
(who lives in Los Angeles and who visits Budapest regularly)
to bring me some reading material, but he is not particularly
well-versed in appreciating what's what.

I would sure appreciate it if I could be directed toward
some good reading material in the form of periodicals and
newspapers.  I am interested in events, culture, sports,
medicine (I am a medical psychologist), vers de societe,
etc., both in the U.S. and in Hungary. I did get a catalog
from Puskin-Corvin (I think) bookstore, but I had no
information about what's good and what's trash, so I
have a collection of books that includes Verne Gyula
(Jules Verne) (lovely!), Gardonyi, Jokai Mor, and in
addition, some assorted worthless books written by VERY
biased individuals (won't start a flame with this can
of worms!).  I have a list of organizations with Hungarian
motif, but I would prefer a more personal touch (however
opinionated) in being made privy to some of this List's
readers' preferences for satisfying, entertaining, and
educational reading materials.  This material should be
available for purchase in the U.S. or by subscription. All
help will be greatly appreciated.  BTW, I am quite
conservative, but vehemently opposed to extremes (either
right or left, especially left!).  Also, please don't
guide me towards scholarly works: firstly because that's
what I do for a living, and secondly, if I want a headache
I just take off the 3 volumes of "Erdely Tortenete" (Szasz Zoltan
szerkeszto) from my library's shelves ;-)

Udv.
Rozsa Bandi
---
 ~ QMPro 1.53 ~ ~ OLX 1.53 ~ I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!!!!
+ - Bicycle Touring in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I hope it's OK to post this to this group.  I could not find any
soc.culture group on Hungary.

Is there any information out there about summer bike tours in
Hungary?  Any leads will be appreciated.  Many thanks.

Please reply to Dan:  
+ - Re: We are #1 (fwd) for Charles (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 27 Dec 1994 21:09:13 -0600 > said:
>>
                                     The problem is that other industrialized
>>>nations have improved more rapidly than America.
>>
>But to cut to the chase:  yes, I agree that Europe is having problems.
>America is still #1, however.  Before you can get me to buy this arguement,
>you would have to convince the statistics were flawed.

--I never questioned the statistics.  But here is another one for you to
consider.  Michael Kinsley--"From the Left" on "Crossfire"--has an essay
in Time Magazine of 28 November on p. 96.  He talks about a story done
on the "New Refugees" by Forbes.  These are people leaving America.
Kinsley says that only 306 Americans gave up their citizenship last year.
Turns out that these are rich people who are fleeing taxation.  And where
are they going?  Europe?  No.  St. Kitts and Nevis or Turks and Caicos.
Third world countries where they can enjoy their wealth.  Kinsley refers
to them as the "yacht people."   Kinsley argues that their departure is
premature because the growing inequality in this country is increasing,
affluent Americans are increasingly providing their own services--
schools and roads--and allowing the common infrastructure to deteriorate.
Is this the group of people who talk to you about leaving?

Charles
+ - Re: We are #1 (fwd) for Charles (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Date sent:  28-DEC-1994 08:57:41
>
>--I never questioned the statistics.  But here is another one for you to
>consider.  Michael Kinsley--"From the Left" on "Crossfire"--has an essay
>in Time Magazine of 28 November on p. 96.  He talks about a story done
>on the "New Refugees" by Forbes.  These are people leaving America.
>Kinsley says that only 306 Americans gave up their citizenship last year.
>Turns out that these are rich people who are fleeing taxation.  And where
>are they going?  Europe?  No.  St. Kitts and Nevis or Turks and Caicos.
>Third world countries where they can enjoy their wealth.  Kinsley refers
>to them as the "yacht people."   Kinsley argues that their departure is
>premature because the growing inequality in this country is increasing,
>affluent Americans are increasingly providing their own services--
>schools and roads--and allowing the common infrastructure to deteriorate.
>Is this the group of people who talk to you about leaving?
>
>Charles

I've read the article.  No, the tax evading rich are not my friends.  Most
of the rich friends I have may whine and complain about this liberal policy
or that, but when push comes to shove, they stay and fight.  I respect
that.  The young emigrants I know are from upper middle class backgrounds,
left wing in political leaning, and usually don't vote.  Cynicism through
indoctrination, you might say.  It's a shame they don't stay.  But I've
slandered them enough.
Most of the poor young people I know also don't try and change anything,
though many of them recognize that the country is not going well.  Many of
them do not have the funds to travel abroad, and most of them have written
off emigration, since it's "common knowledge" that America is home of the
free and everywhere else is a pit. :)


                Ciao for now,

                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
                        In the midst of a free world"
+ - Re: We are #1 (fwd) for Charles (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 28 Dec 1994 09:08:44 -0600 > said:
        The young emigrants I know are from upper middle class backgrounds,
>left wing in political leaning, and usually don't vote.

If only 306 people total renounced their citizenship last year, and most
are rich, you can't know too many such emigrants.  Further, most of the
left-handers I know are also from upper middle-class backgrounds.  Mostly
university people, admittedly, but those are the people I work with.  Most,
in my opinion, are more comfortable with Proudhon than with Marx, but I'm
not sure that they have read either.

                                                                    Many of
>them do not have the funds to travel abroad, and most of them have written
>off emigration, since it's "common knowledge" that America is home of the
>free and everywhere else is a pit. :)

--It is this "common knowledge" that I find disconcerting.  I don't know
of any grade or high school curriculum that teaches that everywhere else
is a pit.  If indoctrination is as successful as you suggest, where in
Hell do we get our radicals from?  How come there is so much disagreement?
Read the letters to the editor in any magazine or journal.  For everyone
who agrees, there are two who disagree.  Look at the arguments on this
list.  I really have trouble believeing in the notion that we are a nation
of lock-step conformists, and we certainly do not hesitate to break laws
all over the place.  Evidently, although we did not know it, there was
equal diversity of opinion behind the so-called Iron Curtain.  Hungarian
politics seems to be a good example.  I prefer to believe that individualism
is alive and well.  Some would say that the problem is that there is too
much of it, and not enough feeling of community.  In fact, George and
Wilding, two British Marxists, argue that the failure of the welfare state
in Britain--and failure is their word--is because people are too
independent and won't accept communitarian values to the extent necessary
for a genuine welfare state to function.

Charles
Kook, First Class
+ - Lustration law (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thank God for the Constitutional Court! The judges ruled that the lustration
law is constitutional. Only a few minor changes are suggested. At the same
time, the parliamentary committee headed by Balint Magyar will review the
procedures of the three judges who are entrusted with the lustration of high
political office holders, including members of parliament. Also, it seems
that one of the judges, Jozsef Eigner who has been accused of taking part in
political trials in 1956 and 1957, is off the hook, at least for the time
being. As I mentioned earlier he was a very low-level judge (judge for a
small district within the county: jaras, hence jarasbiro). Most of the
so-called political trials were sentences meted out to people who helped
refugees to cross the border to Austria--they received three or four months.

So, for the time being, let's hope that the lustration procedure will go on
and sooner or later we will have results.

Eva Balogh
+ - Re: biological relationship (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Charles writes:

  There were the same teen-agers.  Undisputably black and speaking
> Hungarian.  I suspect that they were African, but they were wearing
> Chicago Bears warm-up jackets and other American football team colors.

Well, aside from those, there was some classification of Hungarians even
in the olden days as "black" (as a matter of fact so were Huns, Avars,
etc.)
I am pretty sure that the colors related more to geographical location or
battle lineups delineating the right wing or left wing of the battle
formations. (maybe this explains even the residual current left or right
lineups even on the net here), one wonders who were in the middle, but
those may have been under Tony Pacek's or Mihai Octavian Dima's command.
The latter day blacks of Arpad started to show up in Hungary even in the
50s. I had a class mate from Sudan who could pass for Hungarian in the
dark and my first exposure to blacks was a real African who deserted from
the French in 1919 and married a local girl in Southern Hungary. He was
just a plain farmer in a small village, to us children of those days he
represented the far away and the mysterious.

 --You've never been here, have you?  Our local steel plant is a division
> of British Steel.  The local tire factory is owned by Michelin.  We have
> a JVC factory which manufactures video and audio tapes for the parent
> Japanese company.  We have a couple of Canadian firms and most recently
> Mercedes has started a plant that will manufacture recreational
vehicles.
> We have a Thai restaurant, uncountable Chinese restaurants, Italian
> restaurants, and even kim chee in the supermarkets.  I don't know
anybody
> called Caleb, Jethro, or Mary Belle.  Many of the local residents came
Ah you are still short on real native acquaintances.
> from elsewhere in these days of high mobility.  Probably even from
> Hungary.  Get off my back!  Tuscaloosa is one of the best-kept secrets
> in America.  We even hope to have running water next year.

Oh, I was in 'bama often, even currently one of our major projects is for
Browns Ferry and we have worked on the mag tape plants also and fun things
like nerve gas storage and destruction. I like the South, with some fellow
workers we were hanging out in a bar in your neck of the woods, when some
locals noticed the accent and asked where in the hell are you guys from.
So I explained. he is from Greece, the other one from England, the third
from Ohio and myself from Hungary. For which the answer was OK you three
stay the Yankee goes.
Besides which all good Buckeyes know about the Big Red Tide. (No, Eva
Durant, not the kind you wish for!)
I surmise you expect floods next year. :-)
So as the year is slowly running down, all the best for the New Year to
ALL.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: biological relationship (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 28 Dec 1994 17:16:30 PST JELIKO said:
>The latter day blacks of Arpad started to show up in Hungary even in the
>50s. I had a class mate from Sudan who could pass for Hungarian in the
>dark and my first exposure to blacks was a real African who deserted from
>the French in 1919 and married a local girl in Southern Hungary. He was
>just a plain farmer in a small village, to us children of those days he
>represented the far away and the mysterious.
>
--This is helpful.  While I have no idea of the number of blacks in
Hungary, I was surprised to see them, especially since they were
clearly Hungarian.  It was almost as much a culture shock as hearing
a black woman in Edinburgh speaking in broad Scots.  As one of my
black friends explains, "Oh, we're everywhere!"

                                                        I don't know
>anybody
>> called Caleb, Jethro, or Mary Belle.
>Ah you are still short on real native acquaintances.

--Very funny.  A capitalist with a sense of humor.

>Oh, I was in 'bama often, even currently one of our major projects is for
>Browns Ferry and we have worked on the mag tape plants also and fun things
>like nerve gas storage and destruction. I like the South, with some fellow
>workers we were hanging out in a bar in your neck of the woods, when some
>locals noticed the accent and asked where in the hell are you guys from.
>So I explained. he is from Greece, the other one from England, the third
>from Ohio and myself from Hungary. For which the answer was OK you three
>stay the Yankee goes.

--This is an old joke.  Good, yes, but old.  Actually, as a Yankee, I've
encountered very little prejudice.  Of course, my wife used to work for
Bear Bryant, and I shook his hand three times.

>Besides which all good Buckeyes know about the Big Red Tide. (No, Eva
>Durant, not the kind you wish for!)

--It's Crimson Tide anyway, so Eva is safe.

>I surmise you expect floods next year. :-)

--The Black Warrior River floods every year.  Some yuppies have bought
expensive houses on the flood plain.  We await the spring with real
curiousity.

Charles
Kook, First Class
+ - Honfoglals--occupation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Charles writes, very wisely concerning "honfoglalas," occupation versus
establishment:

>--Please forgive a stupid question that a Hungarian might not ask.  We're
>talking about events in the 10th century.  That was not a time that played
>by today's rules, was it?  Does it matter whether the honfoglalas was
>establishment or conquest?  That is, if it was establishment, should
>present day Hungarians rejoice?  And if it was conquest, should they
>beat their breasts in shame?  As I understand it, some 400,000 Magyars,
>driven out of where they were by the Pechenegs, came to the Carpathian
>Basin and conquered some 200,000 scatterd Slavs living in a sparsely
>settled area.  So?

Of course, of course! I translated it as "establishment" because to my mind
the occupation of the fatherland simply doesn't make much sense. You occupy a
piece of territory which will become your "fatherland." But, to my mind, you
can't occupy your own fatherland. Maybe somebody else's fatherland, yes, but
not your own! Of course, I looked up Orszagh's Hungarian-English dictionary
too before offering my own translation, but decided not to use one of
Orszagh's definitions; they didn't ring true in English. (By the way, many of
Mr. Orszagh's [bless his departed soul] English equivalents stink! This being
one.

And of course you don't have to be a non-Hungarian to think that this whole
discussion is close to idiotic but you see Imi Bokor loves this kind of
so-called controversy. Especially, if he can possibly prove (reading history
backward) that those nasty Hungarians committed absolutely dastardly deeds
all through their history. They were so much worse than their neighbors, all
of whom seem to be far superior in moral and ethical behavior than their
Asiatic neighbors. And isn't it just unspeakable that Hungarian history keeps
referring to "honfoglalas" instead of what it actually was: occupation. (Mind
you, at the end, he translates "honfoglalas" as occupation, thus arriving at
a full circle.)

Eva Balogh
+ - Honfoglalas--occupation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thomas Breed says:

>A major point of my posting was that the break was not
>sudden but also gradual, taking place over history (including the period of
>Magyarization), as the number of Hungarian speakers expanded to those of
>non-Hungarian descent.

Well, I am not sure what you mean by "break" in this context but if you mean
that the Hungarian state expanded slowly over time until it reached its size
of before 1918, you are right on "over time" but you are wrong on "slow." You
are also wrong on "the number of Hungarian speakers expanded to those of
non-Hungarian descent." If anything, the opposite is true.

As to the shape of Hungary as we knew it before 1918. First, the
Hungarian-Turkic tribes settled on the plains on both sides of the Danube but
by the end of the eleventh century, Hungary looked pretty much modern Greater
Hungary looked like. The only difference was that Croatia wasn't under the
Hungarian Crown yet. But Slavonia was, including Zagreb. As I explained
earlier, with the acquisition of Croatia (today's Croatia also includes
Slavonia) Greater Hungary looked very much like Hungary in the second half of
the nineteenth century.

Given the fact that the Hungarian Kingdom was a unitary, centralized state,
and that the kings, for the most part, were Hungarians, it was natural that
the nobility, which originally was multi-ethnic, became Magyarized, even some
of the Croatian nobility, like the Zrinskis/Zrinyis. They are heroes of both
Hungary and Croatia. Thus, also there was slow but steady urbanization and
more and more the Hungarian language gained over the others. That natural
process was interrupted by the Turkish occupation of Hungary, which lasted
for 150 years. It was the central part of the country which fell to the
Turks, exactly the parts which were completely Hungarian-speaking. Upper
Hungary (Felvidek) was mostly Slovak-speaking and it was spared of the
Turkish occupation. Thus, the growth of the Slovak population was not
interrupted the same way as the Hungarian speakers' was. Moreover, after the
Turks left, massive immigration took place from the German provinces, as well
as from Serbia. (The Serbs asked for political asylum in Hungary after an
unsuccessful revolt against Turkey.) After the thirteenth century there was
also a steady immigration of Romanians from Valachia and Moldavia to
Transylvania. (As opposed to the Romanian interpretation I can't believe the
Daco-Roman continuity theory, according to which the Romanized native
population was hiding in the mountains for a thousand years or so. Linguistic
and historical data don't support this theory.) Thus, after the Turkish
occupation, the ethnic balance was tipped against the Hungarian-speaking
population in favor of non-Magyar speakers.

Then here is something else I would like to comment on:

> For much of that time, however, Hungary controlled
>various ethnic groups around them.  "Occupied" them, you might say.

You are looking at medieval Central Europe with modern eyes, and thus you
really don't seem to understand that in those days ethnicity and nation
either didn't really matter or didn't exist, or it meant something else.
Society was not organized along ethnic lines but on feudal relationships. "Nat
ion" meant the nobility. Modern nationalism didn't exist either. Most
countries were multi-ethnic in composition. It was the French Revolution
which extended the notion of "nation" to the whole population which included
the idea of a common language. Therefore, the above really doesn't make much
sense applying it to the medieval or even the early modern period.

And when you say such things as

>And the holocaust went on for even less time in Germany.  I won't condemn
>either country, but I will condemn what was done.

you are really way out of line here. How can you compare the two? Do you know
that the only thing the Budapest government hoped to achieve was that the
non-Hungarian population could speak the official language of the state,
Hungarian. Because most non-Magyars couldn't. How can you compare that to the
holocaust?

And for Pete's sake, what do you mean by:

>At least you admit that there were other ethnic groups under Hungarian
>political control.

That I wouldn't admit that Hungary was a multi-ethnic state? Now, come off
it. I have written several articles about the nationality problems in
1918-1919.

Once I read your letter more thoroughly I became quite angry. Mostly because
I don't think you know what you are talking about but you say all this with
such authority.

Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Orange blood (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

JELIKO ) wrote:
: Imi Bokor writes:

: > on the other hand, i do not see how henry ford iii contribued to his
: > grandfather's achievements, nor indeed, do i see how he could have.

: > d.a.
: We were talking about Family pride. Families exist outside the Ford clan.
: Just for the record I am very proud of my parents and my children also.
: I will not interpret what the Ford family pride content is. Your remark about
: the grandson contributing or not to the grandfather's achievement does not
: add much to the argument. If we would discuss whether he added or not to the
: achievement it could be relevant.

: Jeliko.

at no stage did i ever dispute that family, local or national pride is
prevalent. i only entered the discussion on whether such pride is
warranted. the example of henry ford iii's pride in the achievements
of his grandfather was an instance of this brought up by i forget
who. i would say that henry ford iii is duly proud of any of his achievements
but not of those of his grandafther, whereas his grandfather is duly proud
of the achievements of henry ford iii to the extent that he contributed
directly or indirectly to them, by, for example, providing the environment,
laying the foundations, etc.

d.a.
+ - Re: Honfoglalas--occupation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hala'sz Sa'ndor ) wrote:
: You find extreme examples and claim that that abolishes EvaB s rule.

that is how logic functions. if a rule is presented as a universal one, then
one counter-example suffices to prove it false.

in this case the argument seemed to be that since the hungarian language
survived, the hungarian population must have been in the majority. i
gave examples of several cases where the majority's language has
vanished and where the minority's language has thrived.
if you wish, i can provide you with numerous other examples, but the
invalidity of the argument will be neiother strengthened nor weakened
by a catalogue.

: Your
: examples quote extreme differenses in pouer, and I doubt one of them:  I
believ
: that the Boers managed to eliminate the nativs from the lands that thei held,
: thereby makind themselvs the majoritie.

believe what you will, but the whites in southern africa, and this includes
the english, french and germans as well as the boers never came close
to being a majority.

: Most of the time the majoritie
: determins the language.


most of the time the majority has sufficient power.

: Pouer also matters, but more than a little is needed
: for to overcum the inherent weakness of being in the minoritie.  English is
: chock-full of French, from the harsh rule of the Normans, but it is not lost.

english as we know it, developed after the norman invasion. the natives of
the british isles woulf *not* have been english speakers, but rather celtic
gaelic, etc. the angles, normans etc. were the "honfoglalok", driving
out and destroying the indigenous culture.

i would also point out that hungarian has also been greatly influenced
both in structure and vocabulary by other languages, usually those of
it conquerors/occupiers.

d.a.
+ - Re: Honfoglalas--occupation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

: > Nothing is further
: >from the truth. If the Hungarian government had tried to do such thing for
: >centuries on end, it would have succeeded just as France succeeded in making
: >whole of France French-speaking.

as a matter of fact, this is patently false. if you go to alsace-lorraine,
you will readily verify that the local population speaks an allemanian
language and french is the official language. the basques still speak
basque, and in the languedoc region their particular variety of
catalonian is still alive.

as far as i know --- and i have not been there so i do not have any first-
hand experience --- the breton language is still very much alive in brittany.
i don't know about provencale, but there is still a sizeable italian
speaking minority in the south-eastern corner of france.

the imposition of a single language for official purposes, including formal
instruction does not mean that the "indigeneous' languages die out.
otherwise there would be no hungariuan poken today, given the official
language of the late eighteenth and much of the nineteenth century.

d.a.
+ - Re: Honfoglalas/conquest (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 wrote:
: Imi Bokor is again at it!

not "again", but "still".

: This time, he objects to my translation of
: "honfoglalas" as "establishment of the fatherland." All right, if he prefers
: he can translated as "conquest of the fatherland." I sure don't care.

i would like to remind you that you proposed the expression "establishment
of the fatherland" as the *literal* translation of "honfoglalas". according
to the dictionary, you ae simply wrong.

that someone makes a mistake is no great problem. most people i have met
have made mistakes. i would not complain about a mathematician who says
that 2+2=5. if, however, when the error is pointed out to that mathematician
(s)he *insists* that 2+2=5 is true and anything else is false, or claims
that it is merely a question of the choice of word, i begin to question
that mathematician.

in this case, the discussion has been concerning the legitimacy of competing
claims to the same geographical regions. the establishment of a homeland
has very different meaning from the conquest and arrogation of land and
the assimilation of the previous population. the difference is crucial to
the discussion at hand since it bears centrally on the ethical, historical,
and political claims as well as in determining their justice.

or would you be happy if we were to speak of the german establishment of
an extended fatherland to the east of its contemporary borders when referring
to the events of september 1939 and following?

as ever, i see nothing wrong with consulting a dictionary when the question
at hand concerns the meaning of words. do you have a better suggestion for
neutral adjudication?

in any event, "establishment" is a neutral word, hiding as much as it
reveals. "conquest" has quite a different meaning. it is telling that
the standard hungarian expression uses the hungarian word for "occupation"
or "conquest" and *not* the hungariuan word for *establishment*. it is
part of the ethos and national pride in the successful wars of the past.
in this case it was a war of aggression, not of defence. that fact would
not be irrelevant to assessing a people's claim to a region.


: He also
: complains about my stating that the number of Magyar conquerors had to be
: large because otherwise the Hungarian language would have disappeared in the
: sea of Slavic languages spoken in the area. And to support his contention, he
: brings up the case of South Africa! South Africa? Obvious comparison isn't
: it.

i did not object to the putative number of conquerors, i objected to the
logical structure of the argument, for when the same argument is applied to
an analogous situation then the conclusion one draws is a patently false one.
thus the argument used must be an invalid one.


: A lot of people on the list find Imi Bokor's statements anti-Hungarian. I
: don't call it that: maybe he just likes to contradict. Soon, he might tell us
: that actually the "honfoglalas" was one of the great historical tragedies of
: the area, just as Jan Palacki, the 19th-century Czech historian claimed.

i have not made any such claim. i have been concerned to find consistent
criteria to be used to assess and evaluate competing claims. you will no
doubt recall the question i have frequently posed but have yet to see
answered, viz. do those the contributors whose postings i have
challenged willing to see the criteria and arguments thay apply to
hunagry applied universally? if not, why not?

: After all, said Palacki, it divided the Western Slavs from the Southern
: Slavs. And golly, if these wretched Hungarians hadn't arrived there in the
: 9th century, all those Slavs, Southern ones and Western ones would have been
: one happy family. Just as the Croats and the Serbs or the Czechs and the
: Slovaks, or as the Czechs and the Poles, etc. etc.

i can't speak for palacki or any-one else, but to my way of thinking the
great tragedy is the competition and hostility between various peoples,
be it familial, ethnic or national.  i do not see why people should be
(pre-)judged on the basis of such accidents of birth. i cannot deny that it
happens, nor is there any lack of psychological explanations for the
phenomenon, but i cannot understand how nominally intelligent and/or
educated people can continue to behave in such a manner, especially to
the extent that the prejudices lead to both the condoning of and
the occurrence of physical violence.

i am unfortunately all too painfully aware that this personal attitude
is not the prevalent one.

: The arrival of the Hungarian tribes in the Pannonian basin was a unique,
: clearly definable occurrence.


so was the arrival of the roman soldiers. so was the arrival of the
whermacht in poland. so was the bombing of peral harbour. so what?

: We know the date; we pretty well know the
: circumstances behind the westward migration.

again the word "migration", especially given current discussions in this
newsgroup, is hardly one which does not carry normative baggage. remember
that i asked why is the "arrival" or "migration" of "hunagrians"
not "invasion" and "conquest", whereas those of the turks, or moors
or germans or russinas, etc. are.

: They arrived, they looted
: Western Europe, they eventually settled, they established a kingdom and
: became a Christian country. The date is important for Hungarians and to many
: other people as well, including all those people who were affected by that
: "conquest."

why "conquest" and not conquest? it seems to me that there is a political
agenda, namely justification, in your use of language.

*that* is the impetus for my challenges.

d.a.
+ - Re: "Keseru Ifjusag" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Julia Pirbus ) wrote:
: Edesapam keres egy konnyvet.  Ugy hivjak hogy KESERU IFJUSAG.  Sajnos nem
: tudjok ki irta.  Annyit tudunk hogy Nagykanizsai volt.  Azt hiszem az
: `56-os idokrol szol.  Nem ismeri valaki ezt a konnyvet vagy pedig hol
: lehetne szerezni?

: Koszi.

: Az e-mail cimem 


Tevedtem! A konyv amit keresek nem az 56-os idokrol szol hanem az ido
pont amikor az iro hadifogoly volt Sziberiaba.

Bocs!

JULIA

AGYKONTROLL ALLAT AUTO AZSIA BUDAPEST CODER DOSZ FELVIDEK FILM FILOZOFIA FORUM GURU HANG HIPHOP HIRDETES HIRMONDO HIXDVD HUDOM HUNGARY JATEK KEP KONYHA KONYV KORNYESZ KUKKER KULTURA LINUX MAGELLAN MAHAL MOBIL MOKA MOZAIK NARANCS NARANCS1 NY NYELV OTTHON OTTHONKA PARA RANDI REJTVENY SCM SPORT SZABAD SZALON TANC TIPP TUDOMANY UK UTAZAS UTLEVEL VITA WEBMESTER WINDOWS