Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 20
Copyright (C) HIX
1994-07-20
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Bibo's political thoughts (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Choosing your beggars (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: multiculturalism (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Warehousing the underclass (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Unicuralism (Re: Immigration, nationalism) (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: multiculturalism (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
7 Who is an accepted Hungarian? (mind)  66 sor     (cikkei)
8 multiculturalism (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
9 liberals and nationalists (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: multiculturalism (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
11 WANTED OLD "New Hungarian Quarterly" (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
12 March 15, 1848 (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Who is an accepted Hungarian? (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: WANTED OLD "New Hungarian Quarterly" (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
15 TGM (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
16 SUBS (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Impartiality of the media (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: CR v. SR (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Impartiality of the media (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: TGM (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Antisemitism in Hungary (mind)  105 sor     (cikkei)
22 The World & I (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Antisemitism in Hungary (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Bibo's political thoughts (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Axiom No. 1: There aren't enough well paying jobs. Eva Durant




>
> Eva Durant writes:
> > I do listen to things and than decide if they make sense. So far
> > the principles of socialism make more sense to me than the
> > principles (if any) of capitalism.  Eva Durant
>
> Good, I hope you got a good grade. However, I can't think of many well paying
> jobs, where the knowledge of Marx is that important.
>
> Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: Choosing your beggars (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

(I've only written the bottom bit) If I am wrong, why is it not
done? (The teaching and the providing the tackle.) Eva Durant


>
> Eva Durant writes:
> > >
> > > Give a man a fish, and you feed him for the day.
> > > Teach him to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
> > >
> > > If the side affect is no more beggers to subsidize, so much
> > > the better - call it enlightened self interest if you want, but
> > > it is the best for all involved.
> > >
> > > Paul Gelencser
> > It is more expensive to teach and provide the tackle in the
> > short term.  Market economics! Eva Durant
>
> Obviously you did not do as well in market economics.
>
> Regards, Jeliko.
+ - Re: multiculturalism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

He wasn't only fighting for Hungarians (Re:multiculturism/minorities
1848) Eva Durant

>
> Eva Durant writes:
> me logic, wouldn't they be a threat to the American way of life?
> > >
> > > Personally, I enjoy having so many internationals in this country,
>                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I think he was referring to the US here. ESPECIALLY
>
> > > and don't see a problem.  Just wanted to comment on what seems to
> > > be a problem in logic.
>
>
> > I agree and would like to add, that Petofi wanted to fight for
> > "world freedom" (szent vilagszabadsag) forgotten by those who
> > remember heroism and patriotism of 1848. He would be arrested
> > with his mates for his deeds and ideals in most places East and
> > West - advocating change especially in the US as I see it, not in
> > fashion. Sorry, diverged. Eva Durant
>
> What the hell has vilagszabadsag to do with the issue?
>
> Jeliko.
+ - Re: Warehousing the underclass (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

We have the same wish.
Capitalism is not a good business for a lot of people (including me)
though admittedly, I am not starving or homeless (at the moment)
Eva Durant
>
>
> > >
> > > Well, maybe if you know Marxism you can get the extra 20Ft. I wonder if
> the
> > > test is written or oral?
> > >
> > > Jeliko.
> > I seem to know more about capitalism (still not a lot)
> > than you about Marxism. Eva Durant
>
> Well the first part is not necessarily capitalism even if it may be good
> business for you.
> For the latter I only wish that one day you may live where it is practiced,
> then we can talk about it again.
>
> Jeliko.
+ - Re: Unicuralism (Re: Immigration, nationalism) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Racism seems to appear with mass unemployment (e.g. UK, Germany)
the classic lets blaim the victim and not the system. Eva Durant


>
>  Dear Sandor,
> >   Surely 1/10% or 1% group of new immigrants, does not cause a serious
> > problem. But but it is also obvious, that at a certain point, it will cause
> > problem.
>  But surely it is not obvious how it will cause problem, or else my
> repeated basic questions on this wouldn't have gone unanswered ;-(. Since
> you are, just like Paul, referring to some trends, let's look at a
> numerical example. Let's assume that the immigration rate is going to be
> sustained at a level of say 1% in every 5yrs; to round out the doomsday
> scenario (and simplify the 'rithmetic) let's also assume a negative
> growth for the home-bred Hungarian stock of -1%/5yrs. Then 100 yrs down
> the line in the worst case we'll have about 8 million
> 'real-biological-cultural' Hungarians and 2 million presumably
> unassimilated 'alien elements'. Where exactly the alleged threat to our
> culture is coming from, and what is getting lost?
>
>  Bringing in, unanalyzed, the troubles of the West (perceived or real),
> won't help a bit understanding the problems our country has to face
> (although it may make for mindboggling intellectual play, especially the
> day after featuring Missisipi burning on USA TV ;-<), since the
> situations are so much different. The tiny group of Chinese (mostly
> Hong-Kongian I bet) businessmen is clearly a red herring - they are not
> the boat people the USA deals with but relatively wealthy people coming
> to do business bringing capital with them (and thus contributing to the
> prosperity of the host country). So
> > 1. It should not put a burden on the economy.
> does not apply here. The real problem would be 'economical refuges',
> feared to come from the collapsing Russian empire - but they have not,
> maybe not yet, showed up in significant masses (nor is their accomodation
> on the agenda of those blamed for too lenient minority policy or
> whatever). Clearly Hungary is not so rich a country as to act like a
> 'welfare magnet' some Western countries may. In any case, the criterion
> >  2. It should not create race problems in the future.
> requires you to define what "race problems" mean; better yet, define
> "race", by which you apparently did not mean our _homo sapiens_.
>
> -- Zoli
+ - Re: multiculturalism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>> > > Personally, I enjoy having so many internationals in this country,
>>                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> I think he was referring to the US here. ESPECIALLY
>>
--Before this escalates, let me say that yes, I was referring to the
U.S.  And I should have said that I think that the U.S. has been
enriched by each wave of immigration.  Certainly immigrants alter
American culture.  But what that means is that it becomes more complex
and more interesting.  Without immigration, we Americans would be even
more insular than we are now.  Surely we are better off for all the
Hungarians who have come here, aren't we?
+ - Who is an accepted Hungarian? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear L. Elteto,

Thank you for your perfect answer (in #19), I'm grateful for your trouble!
>From that I realised that my question was, albeit unintentionally, ambiguous.
The legal implications are very important, indeed, especially for the refugees
from Transylvania, or the Hong Kong businessmen.  Having my Hungarian passports
somewhere in a drawer, expired over quarter a century ago, I myself am not
bothered much with the legal side of the question.  If I look for trouble,
I'll find that with the opposite sign: Hungary still considers emigrees to be
Hungarians and, for instance, excludes them from the benefit of "real
foreigners" if they appeared amongst owners of mildly taxed off-shore
companies.  Even children of emigrees "enjoy" the same status, despite that
they aren't to find in any Hungarian register.  Perhaps if I applied for
compensation of any kind, the denial could be based of non-citizenship...

After the lengthy discussion of the legal issues, let us see the other side
too!  The Hong Kong businessman may follow your advice and apply for
citizenship.  After a certain waiting time and fulfilling certain conditions,
he might finally get his Hungarian citizenship and passport.  He becomes
Hungarian, but only legally.  He remains Chinese for himself, for his family,
for his fellow Chinese and - this is the point - for the Hungarian people!
The Slovaks in Bekescsaba (living in Hungary proper!) were there for many
generations, speak Hungarian, etc, still they are regarded as Slovaks - both
by themselves and by their "magyar" neighbours.  The gypsies and many other
minorities are victims of the same discrimination, they are hardly considered
to be magyars despite passport, citizenship, language, etc.  You wrote:

> Hungarian public law XLIV of 1868 declared all citizens of Hungary to be
> equal members of "the one and indivisible Magyar Nation, without regard
> to ethnic origin"; and from that point on, ius soli cuts in.

This citate is clearly about citizensip (my fault!), not about acceptance!  Of
course, acceptance can not be prescribed or put into the Book of Statutes.

Or take the jews.  They were/are more integrated than the gypsies and they
are first of all, members of a religious group.  They might belong to an
ethnical group too (everybody does), but with exception of religion the
Ethiopian falasha has little in common with the Polish ashkenazy, if any at
all.  Still, on this network somebody wrote about a recent compensation law,
mentioning that "Hungarians should have the same rights as jews".  I agree and
protest.  Jews should not have been mentioned at all.  I have never heard about
distinction between Hungarians and protestants (by belief) nor the distinction
between Hungarians and Kuns (by ethnic origins).  This is te reason of my
confusion and this is why I've asked the original question.  It must be
re-phrased, as follows:

   WHAT CRITERIA SHOULD APPLY TO A PERSON FOR ACCEPTANCE BY OTHER MEMBERS,
   AS A MEMBER FOR A PARTICULAR NATION?

Obviously, the answers vary from nation to nation.  While I'm interested to
read any reply, I'm especially interested to have the answer concerning the
magyar nation.

I must also give up the request for clear-cut definition.  The complexity of
the issue will result in blurred borders and, perhaps, relative terms, as I
learned through the following personal example:
   The day I moved to the UK, my new neighbour (a whealty businessman) invited
   me to his garden party.  Considering my low economic status, my strong
   foreign accent, my deressing code, my kitchen's smell of paprikas csirke,
   my 8 to 5 job, my non-membership of Church of England, I was very pleased
   with his positive attitude when he said loudly: At least your colour is
   allright!

So, back to square #1: Who is Hungarian (Canadian, Australian, American, etc)?

Kind regards,  Gabor Ellmann
+ - multiculturalism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Since I got a modem and subscribed to bulletin boards dealing with Hungary I
have witnessed at least two discussions about Petofi. From his ethnic origin
to his attitude toward the nationalities. Alas, it seems to me that we are
returning to him again!

Eva Durant wrote:

>> Personally, I enjoy having so many internationals in this country,
>> and don't see a problem.  Just wanted to comment on what seems to
>> be a problem in logic.
>I agree and would like to add, that Petofi wanted to fight for
>"world freedom" (szent vilagszabadsag) forgotten by those who
>remember heroism and patriotism of 1848. He would be arrested
>with his mates for his deeds and ideals in most places East and
>West - advocating change especially in the US as I see it, not in
>fashion.

So, now, Petofi has become an "internationalist." Oh, my! You must have been
a very good student in elementary and high schools because it was in those
places where they taught such simplified unhistoric things as the above.
Petofi was not an internationalist--he was a romantic nationalist with a
large dosage of dislike of the non-Hungarian minorities. Read Lajos Hatvany's
volumes, *I1gy e1lt Peto3fi* and you will see. Eva Balogh
+ - liberals and nationalists (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gabor Fencsik, quoting G. M. Tamas, wrote:

>True, the Szabadelvu Part of 1867 used the electoral law to exclude the
> majority of the nation from political decisionmaking, because the majority
> of the nation -- especially the kuruc-protestant lower nobility and the
> declasse' gentrified "intelligentsia" which defined public opinion until
> 1918 -- wanted national independence and sovereignty, not a federative
> Habsburg Empire.

This is largely true. Of course, there were other reasons as well that the
government parties didn't want to enlarge the number of voters, but the
constant fear of the Party of Independence, winning the elections and
severing the relationship with Austria, was a real one in their minds. My
feeling is that the majority of the population was for a wholly independent
country, and without fiddling with the elections, the Party of Indpendence
would have been returned as the majority party. In fact, the voting districts
were so designed that the minority areas had a larger proportion of voters
than the purely Hungarian territories because the purely Hungarian districts
were solidly pro-independence. The Party of Independence didn't seem to
realize that a wholly independent Hungary was not a viable one. Eva Balogh
+ - Re: multiculturalism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

All I know is that a number of poems - and I remember clearest
the end of a poem which starts "Meghaltal-e, vagy a kezedet
gorcs bantja, imadott Jankom.." or something like that - which
is a vision of world-freedom fight. Also in "Egy gondolat bant
engemet" same theme. But I am not a Petofi scholar, he's not even my
favourit poet. Nevertheless isn't there a notion for an
"international" fight for freedom against all oppressors in a
number of his works?
Eva Durant


>
> Since I got a modem and subscribed to bulletin boards dealing with Hungary I
> have witnessed at least two discussions about Petofi. From his ethnic origin
> to his attitude toward the nationalities. Alas, it seems to me that we are
> returning to him again!
>
> Eva Durant wrote:
>
> >> Personally, I enjoy having so many internationals in this country,
> >> and don't see a problem.  Just wanted to comment on what seems to
> >> be a problem in logic.
> >I agree and would like to add, that Petofi wanted to fight for
> >"world freedom" (szent vilagszabadsag) forgotten by those who
> >remember heroism and patriotism of 1848. He would be arrested
> >with his mates for his deeds and ideals in most places East and
> >West - advocating change especially in the US as I see it, not in
> >fashion.
>
> So, now, Petofi has become an "internationalist." Oh, my! You must have been
> a very good student in elementary and high schools because it was in those
> places where they taught such simplified unhistoric things as the above.
> Petofi was not an internationalist--he was a romantic nationalist with a
> large dosage of dislike of the non-Hungarian minorities. Read Lajos Hatvany's
> volumes, *I1gy e1lt Peto3fi* and you will see. Eva Balogh
+ - WANTED OLD "New Hungarian Quarterly" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I would like to obtain original issues (not xerox copies) of the
following. Any assistance will be greatly appreciated.

NEW HUNGARIAN QUARTERLY. vol. XXIX, no. 112, Winter 1988.
NEW HUNGARIAN QUARTERLY.            no.  19,        1965.
+ - March 15, 1848 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I mentioned earlier that after 1949 two new holidays were introduced (April
4, November 7) and that

>>With all these new holidays it was decided that March 15 would
>> not be an official holiday, a decision which offended a lot of people.

Eva Durant felt compelled to correct me:

>I would add, that in schools, there were all day celebrations/activities
>on 15th March.

I am aware of it! So, fine. They made Hungary's national holiday a kiddie
holiday. Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Who is an accepted Hungarian? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Gabor, just a quick try at clearing up one confusion:

> somebody wrote about a recent compensation law,
> mentioning that "Hungarians should have the same rights as jews".  I
> agree and protest.  Jews should not have been mentioned at all.
 Yes and no. That question arose when the compensation law set a time
interval that excludes those deported to Germany - and they were
overwhelmingly persons considered Jews according the racial laws in
effect then. However "Hungarians should have the same rights as jews"
should apply, of course - so if you prefer, instead of the shorthand
"Jews" we can say every Hungarians irrespective of their staying in
Aushwitz at the time the lawmakers found wise to draw the limiting date
for the compensation.

-- Zoli
+ - Re: WANTED OLD "New Hungarian Quarterly" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I've got a copy of the New Hungarian Quarterly No. 112. If you want it, it's
yours. E-mail me off-list at  with your info.


      Regards,

      Marc Nasdor
+ - TGM (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Ga1bor Fencsik writes:
> TGM, as he is known, constitutes a one-man Hungarian neoconservative
> movement, a role that is very labor-intensive, implying as it does the need
> to publish voluminously on most subjects under the sun.
While this is cute and not without a grain of truth, it seriously
underestimates the importance of the kind of neoconservativism TGM
represents. By some twist of fate, the two leading ideologues of SZDSZ,
Eo2rsi and TGM, are both columnists of Magyar Narancs, and their occasional
fight (each firmly believes the other is an idiot when it comes to ideology)
is generally played out in front of a younger audience less beholden to
tradition. Eo2rsi presents a classic left-liberal view, and TGM a classic
right-liberal view. Eo2rsi thinks Sweden is the ideal country, the kind of
place Hungary should become, TGM thinks the US is more like it. Eo2rsi
admires Palme, TGM admires Thatcher. And so it goes...

I already lamented on HUNGARY that there wasn't more of a serious
conservative movement in Hungary than we have now. It is certainly not TGM's
fault that there aren't more serious thinkers on the right, and I think the
situation will change favorably as a new generation of students, finally out
of the clutches of Marxism and in particular Luka1cs are becoming more
prominent. It is a fascinating question why academia is not more nourishing for
right-wing thought. I have my thoughts on the matter, but since they do not
involve an international conspiracy of liberal intellectuals I'll let the
matter drop.

In the meantime, the ideological vacuum on the right tends to be filled by
the christian-nationalistic crap of the past government, not to speak of the
racist crap.  As for how much of a force is TGM's brand of conservativism in
Hungary I'd say 6% -- those who voted for Fidesz essentially voted for
Orba1n who steered Fidesz very firmly in a conservative direction. 6% is not
a lot (tho I remember that in the seventies in Germany that was about all
the liberals had) but it is not to be underestimated, as this 6% is more or
less free from the demons of the past (though not quite, as the editors of
MaNcs recently argued).

Andra1s Kornai
+ - SUBS (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Please add me to the list. Thanks.
+ - Re: Impartiality of the media (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

To Charles, it could be, there is a Korean Asst Editor shown in the magazine.
To Marc, Gabor and Zoli:
You guys remind me of the statements I hear about the New York Times or The
New Yorker being a Jewish paper. Who cares if the writings are impartial.
Apparently, reading the comments, many .Could we judge a paper by what is
written there instead of who owns it? I thought that was a premise of your
"liberalism". What happened to the "open mind" criterion?
I have not read anything racist, rightwing or leftwing rhetoric (not even on
the level used in this newsgroup) in the magazine. Neither anything
resembling moonie philosophy, whatever that is. It is obvious that none of
you are familiar with the magazine, so why did you start making snide remarks
about something you have not even seen?
I will judge your other opinions the same way in the future.

Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: CR v. SR (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Sorry, was not specific enough. I ment to ask about listing in Hungary or
> Czech Republic



>                                                         Attila
The HVG has the exchange rates listed.

Regards, Jeliko.
+ - Re: Impartiality of the media (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 19 Jul 1994 18:56:43 GMT JELIKO said:
>To Charles, it could be, there is a Korean Asst Editor shown in the magazine.

--Could be, nothing.  It is a matter of record that the Washington Times
is owned by the Rev. Sun Ming Moon's group.  I have read the paper often.
It is conservative.  Nothing wrong with that.  I am conservative, but I
wouldn't argue that the Times was wholly objective.  Judge my opinions
any way you like.

Love,

Charles Atherton
+ - Re: TGM (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

It is a fascinating question why academia is not more nourishing for
>right-wing thought. I have my thoughts on the matter, but since they do not
>involve an international conspiracy of liberal intellectuals I'll let the
>matter drop.

--I'm sorry you let the matter drop.  I think it is an important question.
My own belief is that most academics are middle class children and have
developed a sense of middle class guilt because their families have done
well and they, the children, don't appreciate how hard it is to make
a good living.  I am working class, myself.  My father worked in a
tractor factory and belonged to the United Auto Workers.  I am an
academic, but I was taught early that the world didn't owe you a
damned thing and that if you wanted something, you had to work for it.
I do not suffer from middle class guilt.  Most of my colleagues came
from families with a great deal more money than mine.  They are far
to my left politically.  Most of my English friends are socialists, but
also come from middle class backgrounds.  I would suggest that socialism
is primarily a middle class pseudo-religion that middle class children
believe in intellectually, but are secretly thankful that they don't
have to live under.
>
When I was in Hungary in 1991, I met a young man on the Budapest Metro.
He was carrying a stack of books.  I asked, "Sind Sie ein Studenten?"
He replied in perfect American English (which may be an oxymoron) that
he was a student in economics.  "Do you read Marx?" I asked.  He smiled
and said, "Not any more!"  He said that he hoped to make some money.
I wished him well.  I liked him.  I hope he had been successful.
I met some extremely intelligent, thoughtful young people in Hungary,
and I was very favorably impressed by them.  Very bright, attractive
youngsters they were.  Very sophisticated and, I thought, very oriented
to both the problems and promise of the post-communist world.  I don't
know how things will work out in Hungary, but I believe that the present
Hungarian people are a group to be watched with great expectation.
Make of this what you will.

Charles Atherton
+ - Re: Antisemitism in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Subject: Antisemitism in Hungary
From: EvaB459762
Date: 17 Jul 94 21:17:53 GMT
In article > ,  writes:
>Without disputing Imi Bokor's conclusions about the extent of antisemitic
>feelings in Hungary, I question his premises:
>
>>most changed their names to hide their jewish identity. blum became
banyasz,
>schwartz
>>became sasadi, schwartz became somlai, breuer became barta, blassz
became
>>dozsa, augstein became agas, blumenstein became budai, blum became
baranyai,
>>etc. this was not because of the tolerance and acceptance experienced
from
>>the vast majority of the population.
>
>>i know of a number of families where the children did not know they were
>jewish
>>until coming home one day from school either complaining about "a
piszkos
>>zsidok" or about being called one.
>
>Changing your foreign-sounding name has been a common practice in Hungary
>ever since the mid-nineteenth century. Petrovics became Peto3fi, just to
>quote the best known case. But thousands and thousands changed their
names in
>the last and a half centuries, especially those with German names, partly
>because of anti-Austrian feeling and partly because of the kind of
burning
>patriotism which inspired 1848, for example. At times the authorities
forced
>civil servants, for example in the late 40s, to change their names. Or,
an
>even more interesting case, the Communist party after 1945 greatly
>encouraged, if not forced, its members to change their German names to
>good-sounding Hungarian ones. I knew somebody who was fairly high up in
the
>Hungarian People's Army in the 1950s who was forced to change his name
which
>was originally Klein. He wasn't Jewish. Neither was my mother whose
maiden
>name was Pfeifer and who wanted to change it to Fonyo1, but then she got
>married to a Balogh, and the issue became moot.
>
>As for hiding one's Jewish identity--first of all, there can be all
sorts of
>personal, psychological reasons for such behavior. I have known American
Jews
>who did the same thing--one particular bete noire of mine talked about
Jews
>as "they." I knew Hungarian Jews who left Hungary forty years ago and
have
>been living here where antisemitism is certainly not a major issue, yet
they
>still don't talk about their Jewishness. In fact, most likely they are
not
>Jewish in the sense we think of Jewishness--they don't go to temple, they
>haven't been circumcised, they haven't been bar mitzvahed, they are
possibly
>offspring of mixed marriages, and so on and so forth.
>
>
>Eva Balogh

the people i mentioned all retained their "jewishness", even though most
have nothing to do with religion. when i asked them why bother to change
your name, *all* of them answered that it was because of fear of
persecution.

when we migrated to australia we did not anglicise our surname. very few
of our
acquainatances did.

the subjective experience of the jews i know in hungary is that
anti-semitism is still a major problem, that for about forty years
it was at least not so overt, and that they did not need to  fear
official anti-semitism and did not feel discriminated against at the
level of officialdom. several of these acquaintances say that that is no
longer true and have strongly advised their offspring to emigrate.

but you miss an essential point. it is not whether or not people discuss
their "jewishness" or "gypsiness" or the like. in a society where there
is no such bigotry there would be little reason to discuss such matters
at length, except when perhaps discussing cultural heritage or ancestry.

the jews i know in hungary frequently discuss it as a matter of greater
urgency. one said that his family lives with a packed suitcase. when i
asked others about it, the answer was that yes, they too, live with their
metaphorical suitcases are packed. "things are alright now, but we do not
know what the near future will bring."

it could easily be paranoia, but it does seem to be widespread amongst
the jews i know in hungary. that alone requires some explanation.

interestingly enough, i know of no-one with slavic or german sounding
names
which did not "sound" jewish who changed their names in hungary after
world
war ii. not that it necessarily matters, but i doubt whether someone
called
"klein" would be surprised at being assumed to be of jewish origin.

d.a.
+ - The World & I (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In reply to your message of "Mon, 18 Jul 94 15: 12:36 GMT."
             >
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 94 20:21:55 -0700
From: 

Jeliko writes:

> It is the only magazine I save.

The fullest impact of this would only be felt if you revealed the ones
you give away...  :-)

I wonder how many people read the Christian Science Monitor?  I
remember their radio/TV programs, they seemed decent enough.


                        ***
Judging from the July issue of TW&I:

448 pages.  14 pages advertising (includes inside/outside back cover)
All advertising in very front or very back of magazine.

Ads for:TW&I
        Air & Space Smithsonian Magazine
        Campaign SightFirst/Lions Club
        Thoreau Country Conservation Alliance (TCCA:simplify,simplify!)
        Conservative Book Club
        The Independant Institute selling Out of Work, Vedder & Gallaway
        Berlitz language tapes
        Speed Learning tapes
        German Life magazine
        Russian Life magazine
        Religion in American Life Campaign
        Musically Speaking (music CD buying club)
        USAir/British Airways
        China Today magazine
        Varig (Brazilian airline company)


Editor and Publisher  Morton A. Kaplan
Associate Publisher   Dong Moon Joo
Executive Editor      Michael Marshall
Senior Editor         Lee Edwards

International Advisory Board Member for Hungary  Tams (sic) Kozma
                        ***


I won't even try to list or critique the articles.  ;-)

--Greg
+ - Re: Antisemitism in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

It seems be the time of the year again when this issue must come up, with the
usual reactions supporting the two extreme stances.

As often, the picture is more complex than that presented by some discussants.
It is said that one cannot be a little bit pregnant, it is either yes or no.
Human attitudes are not like pregnancy, and in their reaction to Jews, things
Jewish, etc., people can be found to take a continuum of views: from philo-
semitism to violent antisemitism.  Hungarians are no different.

If one restricts antisemitism to violent antisemitism, then just a minority of
Hungarians are afflicted, if the definition is broader the circle is much wider
.

Suspicion, apprehension, jealousy, resentment, pity, guilt, admiration, etc.
have been, and still are, prevalent emotions among Gentile Hungarians
towards Jews.  To complicate things, the emotions are often mixed, and a person
can admire and resent at the same time.

I see Hungarian attitudes as much more polarized than those in, e.g., mainstrea
m
Australian society (where most people would consider Jews to be just another
ethnic/religious/cultural group if pressed on the issue and would not have give
n
it a thought before).  The reason is obvious: heavy historical baggage.

Hence, I think there is a larger portion of Hungarians than Australians that is
antisemitic to some degree.  Ditto for philosemites, but negative attitudes
would be more often encountered among Hungarians than positive ones.

George Antony

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