Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 520
Copyright (C) HIX
1995-12-15
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Debrecen University Summer School (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Debrecen University Summer School (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Church Property rights in Rumania (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Magyarok/Ciganyok (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Church properties and their rightful owners (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Magyarok/Ciganyok (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Magyarok/Ciganyok (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
8 Unitary state (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
9 Gypsies (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Magyarok/Ciganyok (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Magyarok/Ciganyok (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Romanian unitary state (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Church Property rights in Rumania (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Unitary state (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Gypsies (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Magyarok/Ciganyok (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
17 HUNGARY Reply to Constantin Donea : (mind)  113 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Magyarok/Ciganyok (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Romanian unitary state (mind)  67 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Debrecen University Summer School (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

You wrote:
>
>I have received information on a 2-4 week program at the University of
>Devrecen which provides foreigners with a basic grasp of the Hungarian
>language as well as some information on Hungarian culture and history.
>
>Does anyone have experience with this course?  Is it for serious
>students or could it be the basis for an Hungarian emersion program?
>
>Are you aware of any other programs [for senior citizens] which
>include a basic orientation into Hungary, its language and culture?
>
Hi,

Take a look at their page -
http://multi.arts.klte.hu/hypertext/summer/hungal.html

Jon Rand
+ - Re: Debrecen University Summer School (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, John Kershaw wrote:

> I have received information on a 2-4 week program at the University of
> Devrecen which provides foreigners with a basic grasp of the Hungarian
> language as well as some information on Hungarian culture and history.
>
> Does anyone have experience with this course?  Is it for serious
> students or could it be the basis for an Hungarian emersion program?
>
> Are you aware of any other programs [for senior citizens] which
> include a basic orientation into Hungary, its language and culture?
>

While I was on Fulbright at the University of Debrecen (1990-92) I knew
many of the staff involved in this summer school, and my wife and later I
myself enrolled for a summer.

It is a good program, quite ambitious.  The University is rightly proud of
its English and American Institute, which produces first-class students
of English.  (I wish my American students had been half so good!) Orszagh
Laszlo, author of the Hungarian-English dictionary,
was the founder of the Department, and kept it going during the late
regime under most trying circumstances.  The Summer School has been in
business for about eight years now, I think.

It is for serious students, AND
for many folks who want a beginning grasp or a summer experience.  It is
not really total immersion, since there are so many English speakers
around it is hard not to use English.

The school concentrates on Language, but there is a modest effort
to acquaint the students with Hungarian history/culture.  I must say
that Debrecen is a great place to begin learning Hungarian history--the
perspective throws much of Hungarian life into sharp relief.

My impression is that the more advanced classes are better than the more
basic ones--largely because the students in those advanced classes are
more committed and experienced, and the faculty are more comfortable.

They were experimenting with computer-based programs in 1992.

Debrecen is a good place to spend the summer.  The school makes a
great effort--most successful in my experience--to make the students
welcome and keep everyone entertained.  Great field trips to Eger,
Saraspotok, Tokay, the Hortobagy....  Lots of opportunity to visit
Rumania, or other places in Eastern and Central Hungary on the weekends.

It is, all in all, a very good deal, and you should look into it.

Richard Alexander
)
+ - Re: Church Property rights in Rumania (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Constantin Donea wrote:

> In article >, Louis
> Elteto > writes:
>  And please do not confuse your country with your
> >state.
> >
> >Louis J. Elteto
>
> I'm not sure I can follow; what's the difference between my country and
> my state?
>
> Constantin Donea
>
Although we often use the terms interchangeably, with the former I mean a
geographic territory and its people, while the latter is a political
organization. There is overlap, and one is unthinkable without the other:
yet it is possible to have a quarrel with one and not the other, or not
the same quarrel with the one as with the other. My particular quarrel is
with Romania, the state: the politically organized Romania for whom the
existence of the Hungarian minority is a problem to be eliminated sooner
or later, by one means or another.

Louis J. Elteto
+ - Re: Magyarok/Ciganyok (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai ) wrote:
: Does anyone on this list have any ideas/thoughts/opinions why the
: gypsy/roma/cigany  remained a people apart?  They've lived in Hungary for
: hundreds of years and have never been accepted.  Why is this?

they were always accepted for what they were. if you look at their history
from the eyes of a post-industrial soc member, you may see dark things you may
not like, but historically ciganyok lived as they wanted. they were free to
come and go as they wanted. some settled whilst others moved on their
pastorial quest. ok, they didn't get assimilated-- but they never wanted to be
done that way.

: The last time I was in Hungary I was told that the gypsies were a 'work
: avoiding people', (munka kerulo nep).  If I was a gypsy in Hungary, and I
: had to endure Hungarians attitudes toward me, I too would avoid work.  What
: would be the point in trying to get ahead in a society that hated me?

enter the security laden one-dimensional society. today the cigany is treated
much like the inter-urban black in the usa. check out bp for severe
intercultural problems. getting "ahead" in such a system is a dilemma for all
of us. hate isbut a refuge for the stupid. ciganyok are loved by all magyars,
they embody and represent our freedom!

: I'm interested in what you think of the situation.

: N.B. -  If all you want to do is to spew venom, do it somewhere else!

: Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Church properties and their rightful owners (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Yes, but when those church properties were built,
all the people belonged to that church and their money
and their hands built it. Now, if that church has only
one hundredth of the community only to support it,
then there is a certain unfairness, don't you think?
 Same as if the church
owns lands, carrying on the feudal traditions. It is not
able to provide, and in a lot of cases there are no demand for
the services, for which they were allowed to own the lands
in the first place.
Your logic would mean, that the few remnants of, say the
greek polytheists should demand the ownership of all
the antique ruins of all god-worshiping places now in Greece.
It would mean a good little earner for them...



>
> Eva Durant is championing against giving back church property, specifically
> schools, to the churches because
>
> >Education shouldn't be controlled by the churches, only
> >if that is the wish of the population now.  Even than, those
> >with different/no beliefs should have an equal chance to
> >find a non-religious local school.
>
> I personally had two years of hell at a Catholic school and therefore I am
> certainly not biased in favor of education in the churches' hands. However,
> there is such important consideration as legality, the very foundation of a
> democratic state. These properties were taken away from their rightful owners
> illegally and today, after the restoration of "jogallam" [a state based on
> legality], they should be returned to them. That is equally true of Catholic,
> Orthodox, Protestant, and Jewish properties in Romania as well as in Hungary.
>
> Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Magyarok/Ciganyok (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Bela Liptak wrote:

>No, Joe, you have nothing to worry about. The Hungarians are just like the
>Americans. We know how to assimilate people and if anybody can, we will be
>the first to make the Roma people feel at home in Hungary.

Your response to my question about Magyarok/Ciganyok clearly shows that you
care about the Roma people.  However, I have a problem with the concept of
assimilation.  A people, or a nation, that are assimilated cease to exist.
I'm sure that's not what you wish for the Roma.

Canadians and Americans have responded to similar situations quite
differently.  American culture has a 'melting pot' approach to new
immigrants.  Everyone is put into the melting pot and after a while everyone
becomes an American.  The Canadian approach is to create a multi-cultural
and multi-lingual society.  Our approach creates social tensions from time
to time, but I believe that it's workable.  Some citizens here may not like
it, but we are a nation of hyphenated-Canadians.  I say that I'm
Hungarian-Canadian.  Others say that they are Irish-Canadian,
German-Canadian, Chinese-Canadian, etc., etc.  In the US everyone becomes
American.

Bela Liptak says that he is an assosiate member of the International Roma
Federation.  If that is the case, I would like to know if the Roma have
expressed a desire to be assimilated into Magyar society based on the
American model?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Magyarok/Ciganyok (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Yes Darren,

We both (Hungarian Gypsies and non-Gypsies) have a long way to go. But we
will make it. We, the Hungarians, stand a better chance than any other
nation, to assimilate the Roma people for two reasons:

The first is that we have 1100 years of experience in welcoming and
assimilating strangers. We have "melted" some very hard to melt people. Read
up on the Kuns and you will see what I mean. Or read up on how patriotic the
pre-WWI Hungarian Jews were. (I refer to the people who spent a few
 generations in Hungary, not the quarter million refugees of the 1940s from
Galicia and elsewhere, who did not yet have time to learn the language or to
feel at home.)

The other reason is that we have something very important in common with the
Roma people: We are also a nomadic people. Our love of freedom, our love of
nature, our independence and ungovernable self reliance can be a pain for the
petty bourgeois bureocrats, but we understand each other. Deep down in our
hearts we respect these freely roaming people, who often chose the freedom of
the wolfs than the subservience of the dogs.

As to Hungarians who have something good to say about gypsies, spend some
time with Zsolt Csalog. Or go to the Hungarian Club in New Jersey, which is
held together (no that is not correct, but which gets its mood, its
atmosphere) from Joska Sarozo (have you noticed, that all Roma last names are
Hungarian?),  the Gypsy band leader. A more patriotic Hungarian you will
never find. Most of his sentences start with: "Mi magyarok" (Us Hungarians),
even his grandchildren speak fluent Hungarian, and when he plays the
authentic Hungarian folk tunes, the ones Bartok collected, his eyes fill with
tears.

Sure these are the exceptions. The more common memory is like the one, when I
was traveling on a streetcar in Budapest, and an unshaved, dirty young man
was sitting on one seat and on the seat next to him, he placed a sack of
produce. An old lady was standing next to them. One could see that she was
very tired. So I told the young man to remove the sack and let the lady sit
down. When I got off the streetcar, a passanger stopped me:

"Did you not see, that he was a gypsy? Don't you know that they can not be
tought?"
When I told him, that all I have seen was a young Hungarian with bad manners
and it is our job to teach them whatever they do not know, he gave me a funny
look and left me as a hopeless case.

No, we should not give up without trying, and the more of us try, the shorter
that road will be. It took a few centuries to turn the "hopeless Kuns" into
the most patriotic Hungarians and to turn the symbol of the Kuns, their large
shinig eyes, into a thing of beauty, but it did happen. Let us hope that with
the Roma people it will not be centuries, only decades.

Best regards: Bela Liptak
+ - Unitary state (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thanks to Be'la Batkay for elaborating on my rather cryptic letter written in
response to Constantin Donea's notion of a "unitary state." And let me add
another suggestion here: Romania should also give up the idea of "historical"
justifications for its current borders. Historic rights as a concept of
statehood also died a long time ago. Romania's current borders have nothing
whatsoever to do with Dacia or "who was there first."

Eva Balogh
+ - Gypsies (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I think Bela Liptak's description of the Gypsies' status in Hungary and the
Hungarian population's attitude toward the Roma is too idyllic. The fact is
that prejudice against the Gypsies in Hungary is extremely strong. One can
read the published opinion polls on the matter or just listen to people when
the topic of the Gypsies come up.

Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Magyarok/Ciganyok (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In a message dated 95-12-14 11:19:49 EST, Joe Szalai wrote:

>Canadians and Americans have responded to similar situations quite
>differently.  American culture has a 'melting pot' approach to new
>immigrants.  Everyone is put into the melting pot and after a while everyone
>becomes an American.  The Canadian approach is to create a multi-cultural
>and multi-lingual society.  Our approach creates social tensions from time
>to time, but I believe that it's workable.  Some citizens here may not like
>it, but we are a nation of hyphenated-Canadians.  I say that I'm
>Hungarian-Canadian.  Others say that they are Irish-Canadian,
>German-Canadian, Chinese-Canadian, etc., etc.  In the US everyone becomes
>American.

Joe don't you think you are being a bit universal in this statement?  I am a
Hungarian-American, My whole family here in the states refers to themselves
as Hungarian American.  The U.S. is a melting pot as you so state, but the
black man here in the states calls himself an African American, as so it goes
on as in Canada.  What are they called in Quebec then?  :D :)     *French*?
  <grin>
Eric G>
+ - Re: Magyarok/Ciganyok (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Bela Liptak wrote:

>I have felt the disapproval of my fellow passangers on the train going to
>Csepel, when I dared to smile at a beautiful young mother with an equally
>beautiful child, whom they knew were gypsies (and I did not, nor would I
>have cared).

>I have heard a relative of mine say: "No, I don't want to see that play,
>because it is about gypsies."

>I have seen Margit Bollyky give an orange to a
>3 year old girl in a Hungarian hospital, and heard the nurse reprimand her:
>"Why did you do that, don't you see that she is gypsy?"

>Sure these are the exceptions. The more common memory is like the one, when
>I was traveling on a streetcar in Budapest, and an unshaved, dirty young
>man was sitting on one seat and on the seat next to him, he placed a sack
>of produce. An old lady was standing next to them. One could see that she
>was very tired. So I told the young man to remove the sack and let the lady
>sit down. When I got off the streetcar, a passanger stopped me:
>"Did you not see, that he was a gypsy? Don't you know that they can not be
>tought?" When I told him, that all I have seen was a young Hungarian with
>bad manners and it is our job to teach them whatever they do not know, he
>gave me a funny look and left me as a hopeless case.

I too can give readers of this list several examples of anti-gypsy comments
and actions that I've encountered on my visits to Hungary.  I'm sure that
many of you have had similar experiences.

I believe that our reaction to these situations is part of the problem.
Neither I nor Bela confronted the anti-gypsy comments head on.  Bigotry wins
when it goes unchallenged.  In Hungary, anti-gypsey bigotry has been winning
for a very, very long time.

Hungarians who care about the Roma people must act.  We must confront the
racist bigots with everything we have.  We must show Hungarians (and others)
that it is not cool to hate.  Let us speak up and make the bigots live in
silence.

'Qui tacet consentit' no more!

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Romanian unitary state (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai mentioned Quebec/Canada as a civilized country, in addition to
those I mentioned, that makes provision for an ethnically-based regional
government.
        Not so--French-speaking people enjoy no collective territorial
rights in Canada, although they do enjoy official language rights.  Quebec
is a province within the Canadian federation, no different from Manitoba or
Prince Edward Island, only a majority of its inhabitants, apparently, are
of French origin.  The various proposed and demanded constitutional changes
would recognize *Quebec*, not French-descended persons, as a "distinct
society", which includes-to the disgust of the integral nationalists among
the Quebecois--a large minority of non-French-descended persons.  Within
Quebec, of course, are large numbers of native peoples, who do, apparently,
enjoy--or would enjoy, if the changes ever go into effect--a kind of poli-
tical-territorial autonomy similar to that of native peoples in the U.S.

So my original formulation stands.

Udv.,
Be'la
+ - Re: Church Property rights in Rumania (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Louis Elteto's distinction between one's country and one's state has another
clear example--Israel, for its Arab inhabitants.  Their country is "Pales-ine
[Palestine], their state of citizenship in Israel.

Udv.,
Be'la
+ - Re: Unitary state (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thanks again to Eva Balogh for her sensible comments on the uselessness of
the "who was there first" argument for borders, nation-states, and the like.
When I was a graduate student at Columbia in the 1960's, the East Central
Europe Institute held lots of lectures every year.  The director of the in-
stitute at that time was a Hungarian, and so many of the lectures featured
Hungarian speakers, although there were also numerous Romanian and Romano-
phile speakers.  Inevitably, during the question-and-answer session after
each talk, some old guy would get up and start with the "we were there first"
business, which naturally elicited a "no, *we* were" reply. Let me tell you,
this got very old, very fast, and enlightened nobody.  Nor, naturally, did
it persuade anybody of anything.  So let's get over it and move on.

Udv.,
Be'la
+ - Re: Gypsies (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Although Bela Liptak's informative comments on the Hungarian Roma were
fascinating and admirable, I must share Eva Balogh's scepticism about the
actual situation.  When I was at the Debrecen Summer Language School in
1993, a young female teacher, out-going, helpful, friendly, multi-lingual,
and the rest, told a degarding and racist anti-Roma "joke" *in class* and
was stunned by the negative reaction from most of the class.  If such a
joke had been told about, say, blacks or Hispanics at my university, the
person responsible would have been publicaly denounced and reprimanded se-
verely by the administration and, if untenured, summarily fired.  We do in-
deed have a long way to go.

Udv.,
Be'la
+ - Re: Magyarok/Ciganyok (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hooray for Joe Szalai's "call to arms" against the hate mongers!  Let us
go now and do!

Udv.,
Be'la
+ - HUNGARY Reply to Constantin Donea : (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 [France] alias Constantin Donea writes :
>...As a Romanian, I often let myself dreaming about the
>long awaited Romanian-Hungarian reconciliation; and then I see a new
>campaign directed by Liptak Bela against my country,...

The listserver did not allow me to respond immediately :
  Dear C.Donea:
>From yesterday (Dec.13, 1995):
 1.:   Liptak Bela does very well! That is not against
     your country but for Hungarians in Transsylvania.
     Anyway, what do you mean your country? Current Romania
     with or without Transsylvania? For example, where do the Baltic states
     or Ukraine, etc. belong ? To the Sovjet Union, or Romania, or
     they are independent states ? Liptak Bela and we the others
     fight for our home land when we speak up for Hungarians
     in Transsylvania.
       In the history there was not any event like that when a country
     had an opportunity to take 500 schools (among many other things,
     even humic soil was put on train and transpoprted)
     from an other nation, i.e.
     like Romania from Hungary. The Romanian authorities calls this
     "histeric justice" as "historic justice". It would be interesting
     to consider what a group/power would get if e.g. they toke
     500 schools from the USA who is much bigger and richer than Hungary.
     You would be amused about the respond. Therafter to call the claim
     for schools as against Romania is - shortly
     speaking - funy, even the Monty Python bizarr, morbid jokes sound better.
 2.:   I am amused that fight for right of Hungarians is considered
     against Romania by you. But this is what we are seeing since
     long time, so nothing new in it. Nincs uj a Nap alatt
     (Nothing is new under the Sun).
 3.:   Belive me, we dreaming about things too.
     And I hope you did not mean a 100% "romanisation" in Transsylvania.
     The Hungarian population is so big, and the mother land,
     Transsylvanian Hungarians belonged for 1000 years, is just
     in the neighborhood.
 4.:   What would you say if Budapest made decision on
     Romaninan schools in Bucharest? And any complain would be
     considered as against Hungary...
 5.:   Let us talk stright : Transsylvania SHOULD NOT belong to Romania.
     Borderlines were shifted by outsider forces. You may reserve
     the right to say Transsylvania SHOULD not belong to Hungary.
     But a fair point of reference could be at least in a
     "common rule" over that area. Even the autonomy is not enough.
  6.:  You can see what can happen by the untolerancy of nationalities:
     Take a look to Bosnia. The name Sarayevo sounds in Hungarian like
     "Shit-yevo", sounding even better than the situation over there.
     As you know very well, Yogoslavia was also a Trianon creature,
     forcing/helping the about 45% (less than 50!) serbs of
     population to be ruling nationality.
  7.:  And one more fact : Hungarians are not minoroties in Transsylvania,
     only if you divide with the population of the whole Romanian population,
     or the whole European population, or so on. Why do not you
     deivide Transsylvania population by the population in current Hungary
     and Transsylvania?
  8.:  Anyway I am glad you read this media, and hope other Romanians
     (will) do it as well. It must be crystal clear for you what
     Hungarians feel.
  9.:  The "morbid" situation of the Hungarian church schools was
     discussed by other readers, so I am not commenting that more.
     (I am conserning about the "if it belongs to us since long time,
     why should we give it back today ?", etc.)
  10.: More interestingly: Is not the Romanian authorities who
     climing the Serpent Island back from Ukraine in these days, token away
     in 1947 (?)? The Romanian authorities would be very surprised
     if maps around 1947 was beeing restored in way around
     Romanian goverment... Why do not we say?:
     That was long time ago, the new owner should not give the island back.
     And anyway what is the base of the clime? There was at least one
     Romanian family there?
   11.: Have you heard about the Slovak language law? It is called
     "Protection of the slovak language". Let me translate to you
      from slovak to slovak : In the today's "weekday sovinist" Slovakia
      it means a "ban on Hungarian language among Hungarians, and
      enforcing the slovak language among Hungarians". But the real lie
      is in the Appendix : It does not have any affect on minorities
      (=Hungarians). Hungarians are the largest minority in current Slovakia,
      who are majorities in the area where they are, anyway. Can you imagine
      that a slovak native is charged for speaking other than slovak?
      Why other countries do not have this kind of law?
      Beacuse there is no other country in the World where 20% of
      the population is not "state language" native, and where this population
      is so densely live (in the southern part). Speaking up
      against this kind of law is against the Slovak's suverinity?
      Yes, in the retorics.
    12.:  And I have to tell you that I do not hate Romanians.
      There was no Romanian who has ever made any bad for me directly.
      Imagine those Hungarians who live in Transsylvania,
      with being their properties, schools, etc. confiscated.
      Why do you expect them to be glad for those things
      happenings there. Why do not you change your language?
      Why do not you accept to use Hungarian language in schools
      and offices over there?
>From today (1995,Dec.14):
    13.: You ask what the difference between the state and country.
      In Mrphy style :
        The country is where you were born, have grown up, where your mother
      in your childhood told you, you were right, although she knew you
      were not.
        The state is those small groups of tyrannic people who tell you
      when to get food and when to have sex, and what is good to you and
      what is not, who is your enemy and who is your friend. If the
      average amount of food is larger, that is called democracy.
    14.:
>thorities and generally under their complete financial control.  Germany
>and the United States are exceptions, being federal in character, which
>means that their "lower" levels of government (states and *La"nder, res-
>pectively) have a constitutionally guaranteed autonomus existence and func-
     I hope you have red this.
     And Germany and the USA have the higest living standard on the Earth.
     (Do not mention me misleading numbers from statistics.)

                              Dr.Dr.K.S.
+ - Re: Magyarok/Ciganyok (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eric Gabel wrote:


>Joe don't you think you are being a bit universal in this statement?  I am
>a Hungarian-American, My whole family here in the states refers to
>themselves as Hungarian American.  The U.S. is a melting pot as you so
>state, bit the black man here in the states calls himself an African
>American, as so it goes on as in Canada.  What are they called in Quebec
then?  :D :)     *French*?
>  <grin>
>Eric G>

Yes my statement is a bit universal.
In Quebec the people call themselves Quebecois.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Romanian unitary state (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

W. Batkay wrote:

>Joe Szalai mentioned Quebec/Canada as a civilized country, in addition to
>those I mentioned, that makes provision for an ethnically-based regional
>government.
>        Not so--French-speaking people enjoy no collective territorial
>rights in Canada, although they do enjoy official language rights.  Quebec
>is a province within the Canadian federation, no different from Manitoba or
>Prince Edward Island, only a majority of its inhabitants, apparently, are
>of French origin.  The various proposed and demanded constitutional changes
>would recognize *Quebec*, not French-descended persons, as a "distinct
>society", which includes-to the disgust of the integral nationalists among
>the Quebecois--a large minority of non-French-descended persons.  Within
>Quebec, of course, are large numbers of native peoples, who do, apparently,
>enjoy--or would enjoy, if the changes ever go into effect--a kind of poli-
>tical-territorial autonomy similar to that of native peoples in the U.S.
>
>So my original formulation stands.

But not withour a challenge from me. ;-)

The Quebec situation should interest people not only in Canada and the US
but also in Hungary and Romania.  Although the histories are very different,
there are some similarities.  Many Canadians view Quebec in the same way as,
I suppose, many Romanians view Transsylvania.

Quebec has control over immigration to that province.  No other Canadian
province has that power.  Quebec has its own pension plan.  Not so for other
provinces.  Quebec has an 'embassy' like presence in several countries.
Other provinces, well... I don't think so.  Canada is officially bilingual
but the French language has supremacy over English in Quebec.

Given the above facts, I can't understand why W. Batkay would insist that
Wales, Scotland or the Basque region of Spain have more attonomy than
Quebec.  They do not!

The province of Quebec, of course, does not represent the million
francophones who live in other provinces.  However, if or when Quebec
becomes independent its present boundries would be respected by
international law.

W. Batkay also mentions that "the native indians of Quebec favour autonomy
from Quebec similiar to that of native peoples in the U.S."  Yes they do but
don't hole your breath that it will ever happen.  Native indians of Quebec,
the Cree, live in, and claim, an area that is as large as France.  But they
are less than 100,000 people in a province of six million. Of course when
Quebec has a referendum on independence, like the one this past October, the
federal Canadian government plays up the concerns and claims of the native
indians.  The federal government claims that if Quebec can be independent
from Canada, then native indians can be independent of Quebec.  This is said
to intimidate the people of Quebec because Canada has very little interest
in respecting native land claims.  The Cree can seperate from Quebec if
Quebec seperates from Canada but no natives will be allowed to seperate from
any part of Canada.  Native indians are used as pawns in the struggle
between Canada and Quebec.  And of course, international bodies tend not to
recognize any native or indiginous land claims.

Much of this may seem far from Hungarian concerns but it's not really that
far.  Imagine the Magyars in Romania to be like the francophones in Quebec
and imagine the Romas to be like the Crees and the picture dosen't look that
wierd.

Needless to say, there is no agreement in Canada or in Quebec regarding the
current political situation.  I wont be disappointed if I don't get
agreement on this list either, mais c'est la vie.

Joe Szalai

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