Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 151
Copyright (C) HIX
1994-12-01
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Bosnia and beyond (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Re.: Economy (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Bosnia and beyond (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
4 Life expectancy in th 30s (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Life expectancy in th 30s (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: *** HUNGARY *** #148 (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Hungarian CD / Magyar Zene (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
8 subscribe (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
9 Pataki and/or Hungary (mind)  74 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: B-H once again (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Illegal Immigration (was) (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Csurka & Gingrich (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Illegal Immigration (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: B-H once again (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Csurka & Gingrich (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Illegal Immigration (mind)  75 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: EB (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: US News & World Report about Hungary (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Balkans (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: *** HUNGARY *** #133 (fwd) (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Pataki and/or Hungary (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Slants (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
23 Returned mail: Host unknown (fwd) (mind)  74 sor     (cikkei)
24 Returned mail: Host unknown (fwd) (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Bosnia and beyond (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

It must be a blue moon -- I find myself in perfect agreement with Joe Pannon
about the matter of Bosnia. Will they ever learn? I'm afraid not. Obviously
we'll first have to see another carnage in Kosovo and, yes, NATO condemning
Albania for jumping in the fray. Greece, where the flames of nationalism are
high already (having been fanned relentlessly by those in power) will enter on
the side of Serbia with the blessing of both NATO and Russia, both of which
will try to restrain Turkey from entering the war. Turkey will indeed stay
above the fray, asking for, and receiving, a free hand for dealing with its
Kurdish problem in return. Greece and Serbia divide up Macedonia, with some
piece perhaps going to Bulgaria.

Keep it in mind that this is the optimistic scenario, with only a few nations
and ethnic groups wiped out here and there -- not the kind of thing that would
greatly disturb the sleep of the German or French politicians.  In a more
pessimistic scenario Turkey enters the war, and with NATO reduced to its core
Western European countries we will see Cyprus as a main theater.  Hamas will
find this a terrific occassion to start something between Israel and its
neighbors, especially as the southern flank of NATO will be paralyzed and the
time will be ripe for fundamentalists to take over from Algeria to Egypt. With
the Western powers busy with the Near East as in 1956, Russia will find this
the perfect moment to remove the Baltic thorn from its paw.

Who will end up in the best position? I'd put my money on the Eskimos: with no
direct hits above the Arctic Circle it will *years* before the radioactivity
gets to them.

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: Re.: Economy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> The underpaid Hungarian technocrat elite (engineers, doctors, biologist,
> computer professionals..) will do better in the future in Hungary,
> leaving behind the less-educated masses.
>
= disapearing market = recession  (so I'm told)

>
> In my opinion, Hungary should forget about manufacturing. Some specialized
> areas might make it, but it's too late to compete with the Far-East
> on the world markets. Service economy (finance, tourism, transportation),
> specialized agriculture and some very specialized manufacturing (chemicals,
> drugs) should be the focus of the current government .. with a massive
> retraining program. I know, It'll be hard to explain to the Hungarian
> steel-worker or miner that they have to accept a lower standard of living
> while retraining and hoping for a better paying higher skilled job.
>
> -george

Maggie wanted to make UK into a theme park... service/tourist
industry + small business will be the "pulling force"  - still
waiting ... 
+ - Re: Bosnia and beyond (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

And guess who bought most arms last year? Greece and Turkey.
And who from? So that's what all those peacekeepers are for...


>
> It must be a blue moon -- I find myself in perfect agreement with Joe Pannon
> about the matter of Bosnia. Will they ever learn? I'm afraid not. Obviously
> we'll first have to see another carnage in Kosovo and, yes, NATO condemning
> Albania for jumping in the fray. Greece, where the flames of nationalism are
> high already (having been fanned relentlessly by those in power) will enter o
n
> the side of Serbia with the blessing of both NATO and Russia, both of which
> will try to restrain Turkey from entering the war. Turkey will indeed stay
> above the fray, asking for, and receiving, a free hand for dealing with its
> Kurdish problem in return. Greece and Serbia divide up Macedonia, with some
> piece perhaps going to Bulgaria.
>
> Keep it in mind that this is the optimistic scenario, with only a few nations
> and ethnic groups wiped out here and there -- not the kind of thing that woul
d
> greatly disturb the sleep of the German or French politicians.  In a more
> pessimistic scenario Turkey enters the war, and with NATO reduced to its core
> Western European countries we will see Cyprus as a main theater.  Hamas will
> find this a terrific occassion to start something between Israel and its
> neighbors, especially as the southern flank of NATO will be paralyzed and the
> time will be ripe for fundamentalists to take over from Algeria to Egypt. Wit
h
> the Western powers busy with the Near East as in 1956, Russia will find this
> the perfect moment to remove the Baltic thorn from its paw.
>
> Who will end up in the best position? I'd put my money on the Eskimos: with n
o
> direct hits above the Arctic Circle it will *years* before the radioactivity
> gets to them.
>
> Andra1s Kornai
+ - Life expectancy in th 30s (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Durant asked about life expextancy in Hungary in the thirties. Here is
something I unearthed from *Magyarorsza'g to:rte'nete, vol. 8, eds. Tibor
Hajdu and Lora'nt Tilkovszky (Budapest: Akade'miai Kiado', 1976). While
before World War I life expectancy had been merely 40 years, by 1930 it
became 50, and in 1941 it was 57 years. That means quite a development in
medical care and nutrition. This is a surprising development for those who
were only taught the dark side of the Horthy regime.

I found the comparative statistics provided by Charles Atherton most
interesting. In all former Warsaw Pact countries life expectancy is
considerably lower than in Western Europe. I wonder why. Can it be only diet
and life style?

Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Life expectancy in th 30s (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Date sent:  30-NOV-1994 10:05:34

>Received: from GWUVM.GWU.EDU by GWUVM.GWU.EDU (Mailer R2.10 ptf00
>I found the comparative statistics provided by Charles Atherton most
>interesting. In all former Warsaw Pact countries life expectancy is
>considerably lower than in Western Europe. I wonder why. Can it be only diet
>and life style?
>
>Eva Balogh

Unhappy people tend to die at an earlier age than happy people.  The stress
of working several jobs and still facing a declining standard of living
might just contribute to this difference.  I didn't want to get involved in
the bribery/poor health care discussion (though I find it fascinating), but
would it be safe to say that the standard of adequate care has
deteriorated?  I have had no experience with Hungarian hospitals, but my
mother-in-law died in a Czech hospital recently under ridiculously
preventable circumstances.  I have heard many horror stories regarding
Czech hospitals both before and after the '89 revolution.  My wife's (she's
Czech) dentist expresses disbelief at the poor job done by previous
dentists at even the simple act of filling a cavity.  I accidenly lost the
stastics on death in various countries:  did the former Warsaw Pact
countries have an earlier average death rate before '89?

                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Ted' ma zena ma hlad, tak musim jit."
+ - Re: *** HUNGARY *** #148 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

HI, Everybody, My name is Cindy Koszta and I live in Nova Scotia
Canada and go to Saint Mary's University.  My parents are Hungarian
and feel very lucky to have this heritage.  I would enjoy taking to
anyone interested about being Hungarian or anything to do with it. Hi
to Karoly in Alberta!

Koszta Cindy
Faculty of Arts: Political Science, minor: German
+ - Re: Hungarian CD / Magyar Zene (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tom Nagy > wrote:
>
>Jo napot!  Sajnalom, nem tul jo a magyarom de...

Az enyem se... de gyakorlatas (?) mindig segit.

Ha CD-rol beszeluk, en keresem a zene az
"Istvan a Kiraly"-nak.  En is CD-n szeretnem
megvenni (van hangszallag, de lemezrol jott es
nem nagyon jo a hangja.)

Hallatam hogy nem lehet kapni ujra Magyarorszagban
se, de remelem hogy valaki akar eladni egyet.

Koszonom,

Keppel-Jones Istvan

> ------------------------------------------

I'm looking for the soundtrack to "Istvan a Kiraly",
which is apparently no longer available even in
Hungary (out of print).  So I hope someone might
have a used copy they'd like to sell.  Email to
 if you have any info, please.

Thanks,
-- Steve

--
Steve Keppel-Jones )  |  My views, opinions, mistakes
-----------DoD#1418------------------+  GCS/E -d+ H-- s g+ p? au* a-
w+ v---(-)(?) C++++ US+++$ P++ L 3 E>++ N+++ K-- W-- M-() V-- -po+ Y
t+ 5++ !j R G? tv b+++ D+ B? e- u++(**) h- f+() r--(*) n++ !y+
+ - subscribe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Please subscribe me to the Hungary list, thanks, Cecil Eby
+ - Pataki and/or Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Text item: Text_1


File item: pataki.txt 11/30/94 2:44P
          Attached.

There has been some discussion whether the election of George Pataki is an
appropriate topic for this list. Let me add my comments to those of Charles
Atherton, Andras Kornai, Joe Pannon and others:

Sen. George Pataki s election *does* have relevance to Hungary, beyond the
fact that his grandparents were ethnic Hungarians.  I had the opportunity to
meet him first in small group (6-8 people) at the Hungarian Consulate in New
York and heard his remarks to a much larger group, at half-time during a
concert there.  First of all, it was clear that he acknowledged his Hungarian
roots.  But more than that he also spoke about the need to speak out about the
treatment of Hungarians in Transylvania, Slovakia and Vojvodina.  Of course,
this was a campaign speech and  he was preaching to the converted.  But, I
am fairly certain that should a specific  occasion arise when Hungarians in
America must come to the aid of Hungarian minorities  in Central Europe,
George Pataki will help.

Naturally, as Governor of the State of New York, there is little he can
specifically do to -- let s say -- Mayor Funar in Kolozsvar, Transylvania,
Romania.  But as a politician, he is well connected to others in Washington.
Sen. Al D Amato, his mentor, has never been known to mince words with
anyone and as chairman of several important committees, his influence
extends beyond New York State.  The provisional MFN (Most Favored
Nation) status afforded to Romania, which will have to be reviewed and
reconfirmed by the Senate again, is just one example where he can use his
influence to extract guarantees for human rights for all minorities in Romania
(not just Hungarians, of course!).

Senator Pataki, who hails from Peekskill, NY in my home county for 37 years
of Westchester, is also on very good terms with Representative Ben Gilman
(Rep) who represents my home town of Greenburgh, NY.  Rep. Gilman, as
the minority leader of the House Foreign Relations Committee, has been very
supportive of  Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland joining
NATO (had a law passed last year to this effect) and follows minority rights
issues and their effect of the security of the region very closely.

As a result of  the last election, Mr. Gilman is now slated to become the
Chairman of the House Foreign Relations Committee -- an important post as
far as Hungary s relationship with the US and NATO are concerned.  BTW,
Mr. Gilman has also maintained an excellent working relationship with Tom
Lantos on the other side of the House and have cooperated in the past in
bringing Central European issues to the attention of the House.  I would also
venture to say that Mr. Gilman will deal with the outgoing committee
Chairman and next minority leader, Lee Hamilton of Illinois, in the same
professional way as he was dealt with in the past.  (After all, who knows how
long will the Republicans  romp last?)

Governor Pataki s doings, therefore, should be of interest to readers of this
list.  Of course, those of us who are US citizens and residents of  the Empire
State, we have our own hopes, issues, problems, etc.  that are of no concern
to members of this list.

 In retrospect, I think it was a smart move by the  Hungarians for Pataki
folks to establish a link between the Governor and the Hungarian American
community.  Its about time we start thinking and acting like some of the other
ethnic groups, like the Poles, for example, who in the past have been far more
successful in ensuring that their concerns are at least on the agenda.



Charles M. Vamossy


P.S.  to avoid any misunderstanding, I d like to clarify that as President of
 the
Hungarian House - a non-political, not for profit organization, - I was not an
organizer or member of the  Hungarians for Pataki  office.  The views
expressed above are private, as were the campaign contributions my wife and
I made to Pataki/McCoughey  94.
+ - Re: B-H once again (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe wrote:

>hearing which was quoting some Western politician that the way to get
>the Serbs to the negotiation table is by making it more attractive to
them than fighting in the battle field.  That, Ladies and Gentlemen, is
>another way of saying that they intend to reward the Serbs for their
>aggression.  Did that stop Hitler at Munich?  When will they ever learn?


This can be applied 2 ways:

        1)as Joe read it - give the Serbs what thay want rather than mnake thme
                fight for it.
        2)make the cost of fighting so high that the Serbs will see a benefit
                to negitiations, ie constant bombing of Serb positions.  Make
                them pay for every foot they take.

Concerning the second point, Hitler wanted all of Europe, but the Serbs want
        what they consider their historic land.  I don't think the Serbs
        could justify attacking another country, ie Hungary, Moldavia,
        Montenegro, etc.

Paul
+ - Re: Illegal Immigration (was) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I agree with Be1la:

> Eva Durant's postings re: illegal immigaration, etc., raise a number of
> fine points, but I was deeply troubled by her--perhaps not seriously meant--
> comment that "I [being] a Hungarian don't take legal/bureaucratic things
> that seriously."
>
> That is precisely the issue--those of us born and raised in "Anglo-Saxon"
> countries *do* most certainly take "
> "legal things" with the utmost seriousness, and believe, with some reason,
> that they are the only thing that separates us from mere sentimentality or
> worse, barbarism.  A point nicely made from a slightly different angle by
> Charles (a [former?] Brit.  Hungarian society is not going to advance much
> further until ordinary Hungarians, as well, of course, as the political
> elite, begin to take "legal things" seriously.
>
> It was all very well to treat the law under the Commies as a cynical tool to
> maintain the power of the "cadres," from which ordinary folks were absolved.
> To carry that attitude into the post-Commie era courts anarchy, and a literal
-
> ly lawless society.  In my view, this is jumping from the frying pan into
> the fire, as we native speakers of American English (*pace* Imi Bokor) say.


Paul
+ - Re: Csurka & Gingrich (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tibor Benke wrote:

>among our neighbors to the south is not that far away.  What is more, I
>always feel the same way as when I am confronted by an oximoron whenever I
>hear a conservative plead for tolerance.

Why?

You may feel this way if you are tolerant of literally everything, but then
you'd feel most comfortable in a society without standards of behavior and
any sense of morality - and yes, i know you disagree :-)
Would you be tolerant of poligamy?  Is wife/husband swapping ok?  I've konwn
folks who get married just to see if it works out, but if not then they
just simply get a divorce - no big deal.  Would you tolerate these things?
You may not be able to make it illegal to get a divorce, but you can create
a stigma with it that acts as a deterant, causing people to only do it in the
most extereme cases, and not just as a convenience.  This is important since
families are the foundation of every society.

Paul
+ - Re: Illegal Immigration (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thomas Breed wrote in response to Be1la:

>almost a century now has been intervening.  If the market was left to
>decide alone, absent of any humanistic intervention by the government, we
>would see corporations breaking workers strikes uses the techniques of the
>early twentieth century.  The "system" has never worked perfectly.  Observe
>...
>...
>citizens and pay at least mininum wage (often more).  I would restate my
>intial point:  that the reason there are not enough American (or Austrian
>or Hungarian) is that they would have to take far-sub poverty pay.
>                        Thomas Breed

Absolutely right, Thomas.  All those low paying agricultural and sweat shop
jobs taken by illegal aliens would not go unfilled - we all need food and
clothes - but they would be paid at the natural market rate created in
the US economy.  The influx of illegals acts like an anchor, pulling down
the wages of Americans to the level of wages in the countries that the
illegals come from, ie Mexico, Nicaragua, China, etc.
Least-common-denominator economics hurts everyone.

Paul
+ - Re: B-H once again (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>mitting that the Serbs have for all purposes won.  It's a New World
>Orde  Aggression is to be rewarded while the international comunity
>whines.  My prayers go out to the poor trampled souls who get left
>behind...
>                        Thomas Breed


Out side of the US National Archives in Washington is a statue with the
enscription:
        "The eternal price of freedom is vigilence"
This means paying the price for freedom, and sometimes that price is the
lives of those fighting - the soldiers.  Not a pleasant thought, but people
have died in every just cause.  The best that can be done is to be sure
that the cause is just, and the sacrifice unavoidable.

Paul
+ - Re: Csurka & Gingrich (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe wrote:

>Now, as to the supposed oxymoron of "tolerant conservative" ...
>Just when was it last time a liberal speaker was prevented from speaking
>on a campus by conservative students?  I seem to recall mostly the
>opposite situation.

Darn right!


Paul
+ - Re: Illegal Immigration (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Charles, in your reply to my posting on illegal immigrants, you assumed
that, when I wrote "rights" I was referring to legal rights, which you
correctly pointed out do not exist:

>>Any AMerican has a right drawn from citizenship to be able to provide for
>> himself
>>at least the most basic necessities, such as a place to live, even if it is
>>only
>>a 2 room apartment, and basic food and clothing.
>
>--This the the statement that caused me to break my silence.  There is
>no such right.  Nothing in the Constitution guarantees this.  This is
>simply liberal rhetoric.  Rights are embodied in law, not simply affirmed
>through ideology.

        (Me, a liberal!?  I'm scared mommy!!! :-)   )

I was referring to the overused principle of human rights.  If you are willing
to work, your pay for fulltime employment should at least support you
at minimum levels of existance.  To say that it is ok for there to be
jobs in which people could not even provide themselves with a place to
live is wrong, but I agree is not illegal.  This latter condition is
created by allowing our poorest citizens to compete with people who
come from countries to which we send foriegn aid, since their citizens
live at what we can inhuman standards.  We thus create the same poverty
situation among our workers, who must compete with people to whom
indoor plumbing is a luxery.  That is barbaric, but not illegal. (God I'm
sounding awfully liberal - I'd better check my temerature)

>>No society can justify slave wages based on some cost effectiveness
>>calculation.
>
>--Well, minimum wages are not supposed to be slave wages.  The original
>idea was to prevent employers from paying indecently low wages.  It's

I was not referring to minimum wages, but rather the wages paid to
agricultural workers, who are not entitled to minimum wage - that
industry is exempt.  Someone made the point that this system is
cost effiective, to which I made the above response.  If farm workers
were entitled to minimum wages, the illegal alien problem would
be reduced significantly, but not eliminated I agree.

Also Charles, I used the term tennant farmer because of the image
associated with it.  I know it is not always a bad deal for them,
but using the image help clarify my point.

The basic point I'm making is, that it doesn't make sense to have
American workers competeing directly for many low paying jobs
against people from countries with poor standards of living.  On
a
large scale, as we now have with illegals, that serves to destroy
the standard of living in the US - something that was won with
unionizing, child labor laws, minimum wages, and worker safety
laws.  If you would allow the least common economic denominator
worls wide to set wages, Americans would live like illegal
aliens from Mexico and Bangledesh who work here, simply since
those illegals would gladly live at a standard of living between
that of the US and their home country.  Now we even see that
occuring for higher level jobs.  There have been news articles
written about illegal alien computer programmers living in the
US.  They are brought here under visitor visas or business
visas, and are housed by the middle-men who bring them here and
find work for them.  The pay of the workers is sent back to
their native countries to their bank at home.  Instead of an
American programmer making $40k-$60k, the illegal makes
$10k-$30k, and that salary goes as far in India as it does in
Hungary, so they are happy to live poorly for a few months.  Is this
good for our economy?  No, since an unemployed worker cannot but
a car nor a tv, right?  Pay rates should be set naturally
within the US economy for people working here.  If we then have to
pay a few cents more for food and clothes, we will have to pay
less for social programs.


Paul
+ - Re: EB (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>"the serbs (srbi, as they call themselves) are a slavonic nation,
>ethnically and by language the same as the croats (hrvati, horvati,
>croati). the croats, however, are roman catholics and use the latin

What about the Bosnian?  How are they related?

Paul
+ - Re: US News & World Report about Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

thanks Joe.

Paul
+ - Re: Balkans (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> --Didn't Hawaii ask for statehood?
 Well, sort of.  The native government of Hawaii was overthrown by Yankees,
who later asked for statehood.  Hawaii previously had a monarchy ruled`
by a queen.

Paul
+ - Re: *** HUNGARY *** #133 (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Ok Be1la, if you are in agreement that illegals should be found and deported
by the government, would you then agree that local governments should be
forced to uphold this law, as they are rquirewd to of other laws?  What
I'm getting at is this, NY City has a policy that local government employee
cannot inform the INS of illegals thay come across during their work.  This
means if a police officer finds an illegal, he cannot turn that illegal over
to the INS.  Nor can a worker at a city agency inform the INS if an illegal
comes in for unemployment for a drivers licence.  This, obviously, was put into
affect by Ny liberals.  If not with the help of the people who come in
contact with the illegals, how can the INS locate them?  They already cannot
raid places of work to check documents - and it is not ridiculous to suspect
someone who does not speak English of not being a citizen.  If they cannot
get help from people how unquestionably deal with illegals, by what means can
the INS find illegals.

Paul
+ - Re: Pataki and/or Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I fully concur with the assessment of George Pataki's victory with
Charles Vamossy, and with the following:

> Its about time we start thinking and acting like some of the other
> ethnic groups, like the Poles, for example, who in the past have been far mor
e
> successful in ensuring that their concerns are at least on the agenda.

BTW, Charles, have you received the invitation to Pataki's inauguration
yet?  I hope at least you and some of the visitors to the Hungarian
House will be able to attend.

Joe Pannon
+ - Re: Slants (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Someone asked for examples of slants (Literal ranslations with intentionally
silly results)


Sziasztok, MOKA-zok! Eloszor is kovetkezzek - na, mi? - nehany Rigo

utcai ferdites!(Talan ezek meg nem voltak.)



oeszinte: he almost

tavollet: far away existance

felsziv: up heart

tetopont: roof spot

melleknev: breast wedge name

kepviselo: picture holder

kutyanyelv: dog's tongue

malom: today junk

emlekezteto: remember, roof!(kis helyesirasi hibaval)

rajzszog: draw nail

o:rdo:g: guard carrion

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
+ - Returned mail: Host unknown (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hope this reaches you, Paul.  I'm having trouble posting to
the HUNGARY-L.  We seem to agree on US & Western & Rus. policy toward B-H!
Glen

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 00:03:05 -0500
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem >
To: 
Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
550 gwuvm.bitnet (tcp)... 550 Host unknown
554 Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >... 550 Host
 unknown (Authoritative answer from name server)

   ----- Unsent message follows -----
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 00:03:04 -0500 (EST)
From: Glen Camp <gcamp>
To: paul >
Cc: Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >
Subject: Re: B-H once again
Message-Id: >
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

        I hope you're right, Paul--but what about Macedonia?  And that
could bring in Albania or Greece and it could then snowball into an all-
out Balkan war.
        In any event, ethnic cleansing is too redolent to me of "Juden
raus!" of the Nazis and even the latter didn't use government-planned
mass rape as a weapon of war as the Bosnian Serbs have done according to
the EU Commission on Human Rights!

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

On Wed, 30 Nov 1994, paul wrote:

> Joe wrote:
>
> >hearing which was quoting some Western politician that the way to get
> >the Serbs to the negotiation table is by making it more attractive to
> them than fighting in the battle field.  That, Ladies and Gentlemen, is
> >another way of saying that they intend to reward the Serbs for their
> >aggression.  Did that stop Hitler at Munich?  When will they ever learn?
>
>
> This can be applied 2 ways:
>
>         1)as Joe read it - give the Serbs what thay want rather than mnake
 thme
>                 fight for it.
>         2)make the cost of fighting so high that the Serbs will see a benefit
>                 to negitiations, ie constant bombing of Serb positions.  Make
>                 them pay for every foot they take.
>
> Concerning the second point, Hitler wanted all of Europe, but the Serbs want
>         what they consider their historic land.  I don't think the Serbs
>         could justify attacking another country, ie Hungary, Moldavia,
>         Montenegro, etc.
>
> Paul
>
+ - Returned mail: Host unknown (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Same problem, Paul.  I hope this reaches you.
Glen

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 00:07:28 -0500
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem >
To: 
Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
550 gwuvm.bitnet (tcp)... 550 Host unknown
554 Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >... 550 Host
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   ----- Unsent message follows -----
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 00:07:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Glen Camp <gcamp>
To: paul >
Cc: Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY >
Subject: Re: EB
Message-Id: >
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

        "Bosnians" combine all three major ethnic groups--Muslims,
Serbs (about 36% of pre-war B-H), and Croats plus Jews, Roman, etc.
        The Bosnian Muslims are also South Slavs who "converted" to
Islam under the Ottoman Empire.  Many were Bogomili, a kind of early
Orthodox Protestant splinter group who were oppressed by the Serbs
and therefore took the offer to join Islam.
        The three major groups got along quite well especially in
Sarajevo which was the most tolerant city in ex-Yugoslavia and one
of the cultural centers of the Balkans.

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

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