Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 1041
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-06-27
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Hungary and NATO (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
2 Hungary and NATO (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Hungary and NATO (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
4 HL-Action: HL-Petition - Deadline 1st of July (mind)  371 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: HL-Action: HL-Petition - Deadline 1st of July (mind)  377 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Hungary and NATO (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Hitler the christian socialist. (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Hitler the christian socialist. (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Hitler the christian socialist. (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Hungary and NATO (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: COP OUT - (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Hitler the christian socialist. (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Hungary and NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I had seen a NATO policy once that said- in fact- any new member must have a
common border with an existing one or sea access. Since Hungary has neither,
I had asked Congressman Lantos, Senators Warner and Robb to explain what is
being done to secure access in case of an emergency. I had received a reply
from Sen Robb (the only one) dated June 13. (Robb is member of both the
Senate Foreign Relations and Armed Services Committees)

" ..about Hungary's possible admission to NATO given its isolated
position..many countries along  Hungary's border are Partnership for Peace
members who have expressed their interest in eventually joining NATO. These
countries include Austria, Slovenia, Romania and Slovakia". 

What happens in an emergency ? IFOR took about two months to negotiate a
transit agreement with Austria, Czechs and Slovakia. Must have faith...
Andy.
+ - Hungary and NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I had seen a NATO policy once that said- in fact- any new member must have a
common border with an existing one or sea access. Since Hungary has neither,
I had asked Congressman Lantos, Senators Warner and Robb to explain what is
being done to secure access in case of an emergency. I had received a reply
from Sen Robb (the only one) dated June 13. (Robb is member of both the
Senate Foreign Relations and Armed Services Committees)

" ..about Hungary's possible admission to NATO given its isolated
position..many countries along  Hungary's border are Partnership for Peace
members who have expressed their interest in eventually joining NATO. These
countries include Austria, Slovenia, Romania and Slovakia".

What happens in an emergency ? IFOR took about two months to negotiate a
transit agreement with Austria, Czechs and Slovakia. Must have faith...
Andy.
+ - Re: Hungary and NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

A.Vadasz wrote:

>I had seen a NATO policy once that said- in fact- any new member must have a
>common border with an existing one or sea access. Since Hungary has neither,
>I had asked Congressman Lantos, Senators Warner and Robb to explain what is
>being done to secure access in case of an emergency. I had received a reply
>from Sen Robb (the only one) dated June 13. (Robb is member of both the
>Senate Foreign Relations and Armed Services Committees)
>
>" ..about Hungary's possible admission to NATO given its isolated
>position..many countries along  Hungary's border are Partnership for Peace
>members who have expressed their interest in eventually joining NATO. These
>countries include Austria, Slovenia, Romania and Slovakia".
>
>What happens in an emergency ? IFOR took about two months to negotiate a
>transit agreement with Austria, Czechs and Slovakia. Must have faith...
>Andy.

It seems to me a very archaic policy. It may have been important in the 50s,
but I doubt that it is in 90s. However, I am not a military expert.

J.Zs
+ - HL-Action: HL-Petition - Deadline 1st of July (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
  URGENT

Background:
  The simultaneous integration of Romania and Hungary into NATO is in
the best interest of our Transylvanian Hungarian brethren, of the
region, and of our peoples and countries. This is also recognized by
the RMDSZ and by Hungarian politicians of the government as well as of
the opposition.
  Unfortunately, the NATO integration of Romania is opposed by the
Clinton administration. We have to convince the US government that the
membership of Romania in the NATO is vital for the European stability.
We have to do this before the NATO meeting in Madrid where the
aspirants for the membership are appointed. Now we have to act
URGENTLY.

What to do:
  The Hungarian Lobby will hand over a petition in the coming days in
which we express our support Romania's integration into the NATO. The
petition as well as an up-dated list of people who signed the document is
attached.
  PLEASE JOIN THE PETITION AND ASK YOUR FRIENDS/RELATIVES
TO DO THE SAME. You may do this by sending a message with Your name
and address (city,state,country) to Peter Orban:


THE DEALINE FOR JOINING THE PETITION IS 1st OF JULY.
The names and addresses will be totalized under a letter-document and
forwarded to the White House.

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
LIST WITH PEOPLE WHO JOINED THE PETITION:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

dr. Gyorgy Bathori
Physiologist
1024 Budapest Margit Korut 29 I/2
HUNGARY

Gustav Bayerle
2210 Rock Creek Drive
Bloomington, IN 47401 USA


Zsigmond Biro
#200-6005-103 Street,
Edmonton, Alberta
T6H 2H3
CANADA

Dr Jan Cederquist
Krokslätts Parkg 47
431 68 MÖLNDAL
Sweden

Istvan CSUTAK, former MP,
director of County Cultural Center in M-Ciuc
str. Pict. Nagy Imre Nr. 45
4100 Miercurea - Ciuc
ROMANIA

Laszlo Dosa
Science and Medical Writer
Jupiter, Florida, USA


Dr Fabian Eszter
Pediatrician
Dr Belfrages gata 10
413 22 Goteborg
Sweden

Fulop Almos
Str.Culmei Nr 10 Ap 4
Csikszereda 4100
Hargita
Romania

Geza Fulop, Ph.D.
Rua das Carpas 76
04648-020 Sao Paulo
Brasil

Everett D. Glover Ph.D. Retired Professor
23 Sherman Terrace #3
Madison, WI 53704
USA

Greta Glover
1004 E. Dayton St.
Madison, WI 53703
USA

Madeleine Glover, M.A., M.S.
President/CEO
Hunport, Inc.
1008 Yale Road
Madison, WI 53705
USA

Michael L Glover, M.A.
Director, MIT Insurance Dept.
8 Myrtle St. #3
Jamaica Plain, MA 02130
USA

Haverland Attila
26310-F Rampart Blvd.
Port Charlotte, FL  33983
USA

Imre Holenyi
Pharmacist
Dr Belfrages gata 10
413 22 Goteborg
Sweden

Dr. George Jalsovszky
Senior Research Associate,
Hungarian Academy of Sciences
Egri J. u. 40
H-1111 Budapest
Hungary

Dr. Ildiko Jalsovszky
Attorney at Law, Patent Agent
Egri J. u. 40
H-1111 Budapest
Hungary

Géza Jeszenszky, MP, Foreign Affairs spokesman,
Minister for Foreign Affairs, 1990-1994
1357 Budapest, Orszaghaz, HUNGARY

Krister Johansson
Blahammarsg 7
416 72 GOTEBORG
Sweden

Karoly KIRALY, former senator, former vice president of Romania in
1990, between 1972 - 1989 disident against Ceausescu's comunist regime
str. Banki Donath 40 3000 Sf. - Gheorghe ROMANIA

J. Louis Kovach
Corporation executive
3424 Woodstone Dr
Lewis Center OH 43035
USA

Mary B. Kovach
Artist
3424 Woodstone Dr
Lewis Center OH 43035
USA

Arpad F. Kovacs
2101 Belvedere Blvd #1
Silver Spring, MD  20902, USA

Anna Kovalszki
U of M, LSA College
Ann Arbor,MI, USA


Katalin Kovalszki
U of M, LSA College
Ann Arbor,MI,USA


Peter Kovalszki,M.D
IMA-PC
Mt.Clemens,MI,USA


Elmer L. Kuber
138 Oliver Ave.
Selkirk, Manitoba, Canada
R1A 0C3

Istvan Lippai
5917 West 74th Place
Westminster, Colorado 80003
USA

Maria Lippai
5917 West 74th Place
Westminster, Colorado 80003
USA

Bela G. Liptak
Adjunct Professor at Yale University
Stamford, CT. USA

Marta Liptak, Ceramics Artist
84 Old N. Stamford Rd., Stamford, CT 06905, USA

Adam Liptak, Esq., New York Times
69 W 8th St., Apt. 11G, New York City, NY 10011, USA

Agnes Liptak, President of Fresco
149 W 75th St., Apt. 4A, New York City, NY 10023, USA

Tibor P.P.Lukacs B.A., B.Ed., tanar
18 Merrygale Crescent
Islington, Ontario
Canada, M9B 5P1

Laszlo MESZAROS
senior software designer
Vecsey u. 17
H-2013 Pomaz
Hungary
E-mail: 

Peter I. Orban, engineer
Maxstr. 7, 52070 Aachen
Germany

Szilvia Orban, student
Maxstr. 7, 52070 Aachen
Germany

Stephen Pálffy
Systems Consultant
47 Weavers Close, Isleworth,
Middx. TW7 6ET, England

Dr. Sándor Pósvári
euroASTRA
H-1145 Budapest
Amerikai út 47

Sandor Posvari Dr.
E-mail: 

Maria Repolski,M.D.
HFHS
Sterling Heights, MI,USA


Balazs Revffy

Budapest, Hungary
1119 Alsokubin u. 7.

Dr. Gotthard Saghi-Szabo
Senior Research Scientist
Carnegie Institution of Washington
Washington, D.C.
USA

Istvan Sandor
430 Stockton Place
Englewood, NJ 07631
USA

Dr. Laszlo Szarka geophysicist
H-9400 Sopron, Feher Daniel u. 13.
T:36-99-332608
email:

Ilona Szarvadi
Dalbog 3
431 38 MÖLNDAL
Sweden

Peter Szepesvary
5 Bajcsy Zsilinszky str
Budapest 1065
Hungary

Geza SZOCS poet, former senator
str. Cismigiu Nr.1
3400 Cluj
ROMANIA

Laszlo Surjan
member of the Hungarian Parliament
Budapest XII.
Zirzen Janka u. 9.
Hungary

Mihaly Tapolyai,MD
Chairman, Department of Nephrology and Hypertension
Cleveland Clinic Florida
2801 N.Course Drive G201
POMPANO BEACH, FL 33069, USA

A.J. Vadasz
5743 Pignut Mtn. Dr.
Warrenton VA 20187
USA T:540 349 1408

Dr. Imre Vago, assistant professor
H-4015 Debrecen, PO. Box 36. Hungary
E-mail: 

Charles M. Vamossy
President
The  Hungarian House
213 East 82nd Street
New York, NY 10028, USA

Dr.Laszlo Varju
LT. Colonel,USAF,MC
406 EABG,SGOMF
Operation Joint Guard (SFOR)
APO AE 09794

George B. Waginger
1900 John F. Kennedy Boulevard
Philadelphia, PA 19103-1428
United States of America


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
THE PETITION:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


To:                                         June xxth,1997
     The Honorable Bill Clinton
     President of the United States
     The White House
     Washington, D.C. 20001


Members of the Hungarian Lobby are deeply interested in the future of
East-Central Europe, and recognize the need for simultaneous
integration of the countries of the region into NATO. This would
stabilize the whole region and assure the orderly transition toward
democracy and market economy, without the turmoil seen in the former
Yugoslavia.

Romania, a country of 23 milion people, with affinity toward western
culture, at the same time represents the best potential base of
stability in the Balkans.

Romania's ongoing political democratization and reorganization of all
central and local governmental institutions, the inclusion of the
large Hungarian minority in the government, and the expected
subsequent satisfaction of legitimate minority claims are -- and may
become -- positive examples for the countries of the region.

A look at the map of Europe shows Romania to be the gateway to the
East. Only through this gateway will it be possible to access the
heart of Europe, and the key that will allow this gateway to stay open
-- and to defend it effectively at the same time -- is NATO membership
for Romania.

With an important economic potential due to a large and fertile
agricultural area, her metallurgical and defense industries ready to
produce for her allies, possessing the biggest maritime port in
Eastern Europe, with a multiethnic population and large urban
comunities, Romania is just as much an important future partner and
ally of the European Community and of NATO as are Poland, the Czech
Republic, and Hungary.

For all the above considerations, members of the Hungarian Lobby,who
during the last six months learned, along the the members of Diaspora
Romana, to cooperate in promoting the cause of democratic
transformation oin Eastern-Central Europe,support  the inclusion of
Romania, along with Hungary, the Czech Republic and Poland, among the
first group of countries to be integrated into NATO.

   Members of the Hungarian Lobby :
   List with name, title, address
+ - Re: HL-Action: HL-Petition - Deadline 1st of July (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:57 PM 6/27/97 +0000, you wrote:
>****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************
>
>Priority:For whom?had enough.
>  URGENT
>
>Background:
>  The simultaneous integration of Romania and Hungary into NATO is in
>the best interest of our Transylvanian Hungarian brethren, of the
>region, and of our peoples and countries. This is also recognized by
>the RMDSZ and by Hungarian politicians of the government as well as of
>the opposition.
>  Unfortunately, the NATO integration of Romania is opposed by the
>Clinton administration. We have to convince the US government that the
>membership of Romania in the NATO is vital for the European stability.
>We have to do this before the NATO meeting in Madrid where the
>aspirants for the membership are appointed. Now we have to act
>URGENTLY.
>
>What to do:
>  The Hungarian Lobby will hand over a petition in the coming days in
>which we express our support Romania's integration into the NATO. The
>petition as well as an up-dated list of people who signed the document is
>attached.
>  PLEASE JOIN THE PETITION AND ASK YOUR FRIENDS/RELATIVES
>TO DO THE SAME. You may do this by sending a message with Your name
>and address (city,state,country) to Peter Orban:

>
>THE DEALINE FOR JOINING THE PETITION IS 1st OF JULY.
>The names and addresses will be totalized under a letter-document and
>forwarded to the White House.
>
>**************************************************************
>
>xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>LIST WITH PEOPLE WHO JOINED THE PETITION:
>xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>dr. Gyorgy Bathori
>Physiologist
>1024 Budapest Margit Korut 29 I/2
>HUNGARY
>
>Gustav Bayerle
>2210 Rock Creek Drive
>Bloomington, IN 47401 USA

>
>Zsigmond Biro
>#200-6005-103 Street,
>Edmonton, Alberta
>T6H 2H3
>CANADA
>
>Dr Jan Cederquist
>Krokslätts Parkg 47
>431 68 MÖLNDAL
>Sweden
>
>Istvan CSUTAK, former MP,
>director of County Cultural Center in M-Ciuc
>str. Pict. Nagy Imre Nr. 45
>4100 Miercurea - Ciuc
>ROMANIA
>
>Laszlo Dosa
>Science and Medical Writer
>Jupiter, Florida, USA

>
>Dr Fabian Eszter
>Pediatrician
>Dr Belfrages gata 10
>413 22 Goteborg
>Sweden
>
>Fulop Almos
>Str.Culmei Nr 10 Ap 4
>Csikszereda 4100
>Hargita
>Romania
>
>Geza Fulop, Ph.D.
>Rua das Carpas 76
>04648-020 Sao Paulo
>Brasil
>
>Everett D. Glover Ph.D. Retired Professor
>23 Sherman Terrace #3
>Madison, WI 53704
>USA
>
>Greta Glover
>1004 E. Dayton St.
>Madison, WI 53703
>USA
>
>Madeleine Glover, M.A., M.S.
>President/CEO
>Hunport, Inc.
>1008 Yale Road
>Madison, WI 53705
>USA
>
>Michael L Glover, M.A.
>Director, MIT Insurance Dept.
>8 Myrtle St. #3
>Jamaica Plain, MA 02130
>USA
>
>Haverland Attila
>26310-F Rampart Blvd.
>Port Charlotte, FL  33983
>USA
>
>Imre Holenyi
>Pharmacist
>Dr Belfrages gata 10
>413 22 Goteborg
>Sweden
>
>Dr. George Jalsovszky
>Senior Research Associate,
>Hungarian Academy of Sciences
>Egri J. u. 40
>H-1111 Budapest
>Hungary
>
>Dr. Ildiko Jalsovszky
>Attorney at Law, Patent Agent
>Egri J. u. 40
>H-1111 Budapest
>Hungary
>
>Géza Jeszenszky, MP, Foreign Affairs spokesman,
>Minister for Foreign Affairs, 1990-1994
>1357 Budapest, Orszaghaz, HUNGARY
>
>Krister Johansson
>Blahammarsg 7
>416 72 GOTEBORG
>Sweden
>
>Karoly KIRALY, former senator, former vice president of Romania in
>1990, between 1972 - 1989 disident against Ceausescu's comunist regime
>str. Banki Donath 40 3000 Sf. - Gheorghe ROMANIA
>
>J. Louis Kovach
>Corporation executive
>3424 Woodstone Dr
>Lewis Center OH 43035
>USA
>
>Mary B. Kovach
>Artist
>3424 Woodstone Dr
>Lewis Center OH 43035
>USA
>
>Arpad F. Kovacs
>2101 Belvedere Blvd #1
>Silver Spring, MD  20902, USA
>
>Anna Kovalszki
>U of M, LSA College
>Ann Arbor,MI, USA

>
>Katalin Kovalszki
>U of M, LSA College
>Ann Arbor,MI,USA

>
>Peter Kovalszki,M.D
>IMA-PC
>Mt.Clemens,MI,USA

>
>Elmer L. Kuber
>138 Oliver Ave.
>Selkirk, Manitoba, Canada
>R1A 0C3
>
>Istvan Lippai
>5917 West 74th Place
>Westminster, Colorado 80003
>USA
>
>Maria Lippai
>5917 West 74th Place
>Westminster, Colorado 80003
>USA
>
>Bela G. Liptak
>Adjunct Professor at Yale University
>Stamford, CT. USA
>
>Marta Liptak, Ceramics Artist
>84 Old N. Stamford Rd., Stamford, CT 06905, USA
>
>Adam Liptak, Esq., New York Times
>69 W 8th St., Apt. 11G, New York City, NY 10011, USA
>
>Agnes Liptak, President of Fresco
>149 W 75th St., Apt. 4A, New York City, NY 10023, USA
>
>Tibor P.P.Lukacs B.A., B.Ed., tanar
>18 Merrygale Crescent
>Islington, Ontario
>Canada, M9B 5P1
>
>Laszlo MESZAROS
>senior software designer
>Vecsey u. 17
>H-2013 Pomaz
>Hungary
>E-mail: 
>
>Peter I. Orban, engineer
>Maxstr. 7, 52070 Aachen
>Germany
>
>Szilvia Orban, student
>Maxstr. 7, 52070 Aachen
>Germany
>
>Stephen Pálffy
>Systems Consultant
>47 Weavers Close, Isleworth,
>Middx. TW7 6ET, England
>
>Dr. Sándor Pósvári
>euroASTRA
>H-1145 Budapest
>Amerikai út 47

>Sandor Posvari Dr.
>E-mail: 
>
>Maria Repolski,M.D.
>HFHS
>Sterling Heights, MI,USA

>
>Balazs Revffy

>Budapest, Hungary
>1119 Alsokubin u. 7.
>
>Dr. Gotthard Saghi-Szabo
>Senior Research Scientist
>Carnegie Institution of Washington
>Washington, D.C.
>USA
>
>Istvan Sandor
>430 Stockton Place
>Englewood, NJ 07631
>USA
>
>Dr. Laszlo Szarka geophysicist
>H-9400 Sopron, Feher Daniel u. 13.
>T:36-99-332608
>email:
>
>Ilona Szarvadi
>Dalbog 3
>431 38 MÖLNDAL
>Sweden
>
>Peter Szepesvary
>5 Bajcsy Zsilinszky str
>Budapest 1065
>Hungary
>
>Geza SZOCS poet, former senator
>str. Cismigiu Nr.1
>3400 Cluj
>ROMANIA
>
>Laszlo Surjan
>member of the Hungarian Parliament
>Budapest XII.
>Zirzen Janka u. 9.
>Hungary
>
>Mihaly Tapolyai,MD
>Chairman, Department of Nephrology and Hypertension
>Cleveland Clinic Florida
>2801 N.Course Drive G201
>POMPANO BEACH, FL 33069, USA
>
>A.J. Vadasz
>5743 Pignut Mtn. Dr.
>Warrenton VA 20187
>USA T:540 349 1408
>
>Dr. Imre Vago, assistant professor
>H-4015 Debrecen, PO. Box 36. Hungary
>E-mail: 
>
>Charles M. Vamossy
>President
>The  Hungarian House
>213 East 82nd Street
>New York, NY 10028, USA
>
>Dr.Laszlo Varju
>LT. Colonel,USAF,MC
>406 EABG,SGOMF
>Operation Joint Guard (SFOR)
>APO AE 09794
>
>George B. Waginger
>1900 John F. Kennedy Boulevard
>Philadelphia, PA 19103-1428
>United States of America
>
>
>xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>THE PETITION:
>xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>To:                                         June xxth,1997
>     The Honorable Bill Clinton
>     President of the United States
>     The White House
>     Washington, D.C. 20001
>
>
>Members of the Hungarian Lobby are deeply interested in the future of
>East-Central Europe, and recognize the need for simultaneous
>integration of the countries of the region into NATO. This would
>stabilize the whole region and assure the orderly transition toward
>democracy and market economy, without the turmoil seen in the former
>Yugoslavia.
>
>Romania, a country of 23 milion people, with affinity toward western
>culture, at the same time represents the best potential base of
>stability in the Balkans.
>
>Romania's ongoing political democratization and reorganization of all
>central and local governmental institutions, the inclusion of the
>large Hungarian minority in the government, and the expected
>subsequent satisfaction of legitimate minority claims are -- and may
>become -- positive examples for the countries of the region.
>
>A look at the map of Europe shows Romania to be the gateway to the
>East. Only through this gateway will it be possible to access the
>heart of Europe, and the key that will allow this gateway to stay open
>-- and to defend it effectively at the same time -- is NATO membership
>for Romania.
>
>With an important economic potential due to a large and fertile
>agricultural area, her metallurgical and defense industries ready to
>produce for her allies, possessing the biggest maritime port in
>Eastern Europe, with a multiethnic population and large urban
>comunities, Romania is just as much an important future partner and
>ally of the European Community and of NATO as are Poland, the Czech
>Republic, and Hungary.
>
>For all the above considerations, members of the Hungarian Lobby,who
>during the last six months learned, along the the members of Diaspora
>Romana, to cooperate in promoting the cause of democratic
>transformation oin Eastern-Central Europe,support  the inclusion of
>Romania, along with Hungary, the Czech Republic and Poland, among the
>first group of countries to be integrated into NATO.
>
>   Members of the Hungarian Lobby :
>   List with name, title, address
>
>
Andy Kozma

Toronto.
+ - Re: Hungary and NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, A.J.Vadasz wrote:

> I had seen a NATO policy once that said- in fact- any new member must have a
> common border with an existing one or sea access. Since Hungary has neither,
> I had asked Congressman Lantos, Senators Warner and Robb to explain what is
> being done to secure access in case of an emergency. I had received a reply
> from Sen Robb (the only one) dated June 13. (Robb is member of both the
> Senate Foreign Relations and Armed Services Committees)
>
> " ..about Hungary's possible admission to NATO given its isolated
> position..many countries along  Hungary's border are Partnership for Peace
> members who have expressed their interest in eventually joining NATO. These
> countries include Austria, Slovenia, Romania and Slovakia".
>
> What happens in an emergency ? IFOR took about two months to negotiate a
> transit agreement with Austria, Czechs and Slovakia. Must have faith...
> Andy.

I wouldn't be surprised if Slovenia was admitted to NATO in the first
round.  That would seem like a compromise by the Americans for not
allowing Romania in.  If Slovenia becomes a NATO member that would solve
the common border question.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Hitler the christian socialist. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 11:52 PM 6/26/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
>
> >There is no point in debating with believers. To me, she appears to be
> >one. And as such, of course, she would venerate the Holy Wladimir
> >Ilyich. Bloody? oh, no! he was just annihilating the evil...Discussing
> >is waste of time...
>
>         Yes, I'm afraid and it would be wiser not to engage her and her
> sidekick in any political debate.


> But, unfortunately I always brake down.
> There comes a point when I can no longer stand it.

As long, as you are aware of it...enjoy yourself...
This is the sunny side of addictions...;-)
MKH
+ - Re: Hitler the christian socialist. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> Now, if Eva Balogh were a bit more collegial, she'd explain why I used the
> word  "corporatist" wrongly.

Yes! Eva, how about this?

I'll bet it was because I used it differently
> from her.  Usually, that just qualifies me as stupid.
>

It may, and it may not be. She4d better explain it herself.

>> We are left speechless because we simply don't think
> >in those terms, because we cannot think in those terms, because those terms
> >are inappropriate.

Different. And different terms, different usage of terms, different
languages make sensible communication fake, almost impossible but an
advanture, too.

> And I, and other clear thinking people,

I4ll leave this just like this. What a beauty!

 Simply put, she never ceases to amaze me.

Then be grateful, Joe!

> ...
> From the wars against disorder,
> from the sirens night and day,
> from the fires of the homeless,
> from the ashes of the gay:
> Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.
>      --- Leonard Cohen

Finally? Or what was the message?
( A relative of the Defense Secretary? )

Miklos
+ - Re: Hitler the christian socialist. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 07:39 PM 6/26/97 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
> >At 11:52 PM 6/26/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
> >
> >>There is no point in debating with believers. To me, she appears to be
> >>one. And as such, of course, she would venerate the Holy Wladimir
> >>Ilyich. Bloody? oh, no! he was just annihilating the evil...Discussing
> >>is waste of time...
> >
> >        Yes, I'm afraid and it would be wiser not to engage her and her
> >sidekick in any political debate. But, unfortunately I always brake down.
> >There comes a point when I can no longer stand it. ESB
>
> Stand what?  The debate or your breaking down?
>
> You know, if you were as wise as Jeliko, you'd set your auto delete and
> you'd never see messages from her or her sidekick.  And, if you want to be
> very content, set it to receive messages only from >.  I
> ask you - can life be any simpler?
>
> Joe Szalai

Joe,
thanks for letting me lough out loud in the morning!
It4s just great, when you let your humor go.
Miklos
+ - Re: Hungary and NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

A.J.Vadasz writes about the lack of a common border between Hungary
and her prospective NATO partners:

> What happens in an emergency ? IFOR took about two months to negotiate
> a transit agreement with Austria, Czechs and Slovakia. Must have faith...

Yes, but ... IFOR was not being deployed to fight a war.  A very different
mix of troops with very different equipment would have been sent on a very
different timetable if this had been a deployment for combat.  There are
airborne forces on 24-hour standby, ready to be flown in and hold the
line until the main force shows up.

Second, once Hungary is in NATO there will be massive stores of
prepositioned equipment so the place can be reinforced by air at a
moment's notice.

Third, in NATO's entire existence there has not been a single shot fired
in defense of NATO territory.  Which means deterrence worked.  There is
every reason to suppose that it will keep on working as advertised.
(Part of the reason why it worked is that in Russian translation the
words "deterrence" and "intimidation" come out the same.  They may have
been unclear on the concept all along.)  Most of the NATO deployments
of the near future are likely to be for peacekeeping rather than combat.
Soon enough, we should expect Hungarian troops showing up under NATO
command on peacekeeping duty in Abkhazia, or Albania, or both.

Fourth, Hungary is about to join a mutual defense pact.  A member of
a mutual defense pact is both a producer and a consumer of security.
This means, among other things, that Hungarian troops are obligated to
come to the aid of Harlingen, Texas in case it comes under attack.  As we
know, Harlingen, Texas was in mortal danger just a short 10 years ago.
We have that on the authority of Ronald Reagan, no less.  I suppose
American military experts are having just as many sleepless nights over
the lack of a land bridge between Kecskemet and Harlingen, TX as they do
over the absence of a land border between Italy and Hungary.

-----
Gabor Fencsik
+ - Re: COP OUT - (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 18:21 22/6/97 GMT, you wrote:
>.
>> Wake up and look at the world for a change.
>>                                              Amos
>>
>
>Well said. Look for the causes of all poverty and injustice,
>not just the temporary "Ain't I a goody-goody" feeling.
>
>You are keep going on about "human nature" and how people are selfish
>and the "poor will be always with us". Charity is a firm ally of the
>status quo. If you were really so selfless, dare to look into the
>causes - fight the unfair system itself - perhaps not as comfortable,
>it is not giving you the warm feeling, that you are better -
>and better off - than so many others.
>
>Yes, I am selfish - I have never said I was not - I want a world
>where people live in dignity without the chance of falling through
>remnents of safety-nets. It feels me with shame when people are
>forced to beg.  You can live with that comfortably - I cannot.
>I bet, a bigger percentage of my fairly meagre income goes to
>what I think is the right way to go about to eradicate poverty,
>than what yours.  And I don't get the social niceties with it like
>being on the board of this and that, having big parties
>where I can flaunt my goodness and my wealth...
>Yuk
>
>

>
Hi!
I am always surprised by the either/or attitude of people in this matter.
If there is a famine or unemployment or whatever and people are in distress
the immediate need is to help these people to survive. That is the role of
charities and they need money to carry out this necessary task. At the same
time it is necessary to look at the causes of the distress and find ways to
overcome them. This is generally a longer term task which involves
extensive efforts in education. Usually the charities providing the "band
aid" solutions are not the most suitable to come up with long term
solutions since the latter often involves government policies on the one
hand and changes in lifestyle on the other.
I definitely give to charities but am also involved in groups working for
long-term solutions. Most importantly I keep a constant watch on my own
lifestyle to see how I can cut back extravagencies particularly in the use
of resources with the slogan "live simply so others may simply live".
Regards
De'nes
Denes BOGSANYI  ATRACI
133 Osburn Drive
MACGREGOR
Australia
61 6 254 3636

+ - Re: Hitler the christian socialist. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 19:39 26/6/97 -0400, you wrote:
>At 11:52 PM 6/26/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
>
>>There is no point in debating with believers. To me, she appears to be
>>one. And as such, of course, she would venerate the Holy Wladimir
>>Ilyich. Bloody? oh, no! he was just annihilating the evil...Discussing
>>is waste of time...
>
>        Yes, I'm afraid and it would be wiser not to engage her and her
>sidekick in any political debate. But, unfortunately I always brake down.
>There comes a point when I can no longer stand it. ESB
>
I think it is clear that while Marx and Lenin and their followers (eg Kun
Be'la) were agressively atheistic and hostile to the churches and in
particularly the Catholic Church, Hitler put himself forward as a believer
and one of his first acts on assuming power was to sign a Concordat with
the Vatican on quite fair terms. At that time his anti-semitic mouthings
were not taken seriously and it must be remembered that this was a full
five years before the "Crystal Nacht".
It is on public record that catholic priests were in the forefront when it
came to saving jews, in Poland, in France and in Hungary, that I know of,
and these acts were not done on their own initiative but were coordinated
by the bishops right up to the Vatican itself.
It is interesting that the 1936 Constitution of the Soviet Union on the
face of it was one of the most democratic, however Stalin and his
government managed to make it a dead letter. Stalin was just as
anti-semitic as Hitler and probably killed more jews in various pogroms
just prior to WWII.
Regards
De'nes
Denes BOGSANYI  ATRACI
133 Osburn Drive
MACGREGOR
Australia
61 6 254 3636


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