Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 310
Copyright (C) HIX
1995-05-15
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Szia! (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Szia! (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
3 more on Hunglish and "mongrelization" (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
4 more on Hunglish and "mongrelization" (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
5 WORD WAR III (mind)  184 sor     (cikkei)
6 VOTE NO ! - 2nd CFV: soc.culture.hungarian (replaces (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: immigration into Canada (free evaluation) (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
8 szia (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
9 Washington, D.C. - summer programs (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: VOTE NO ! - 2nd CFV: soc.culture.hungarian (replace (mind)  180 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Szia! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Let me submit my private little theory about the origin of the greeting
form SZIA. Of course, it has nothing to do with "see you", as HALLO has
nothing to do with Hungarian HALLOM "I hear it". This are instances of
what is called "folk etymology".
        Let us not forget the intermediary shape SZEVASZ which was more
common in my youth, SZIA came later. Now, in Viennese German, SZERVUSZ is
pronounced in such a way that could be impressionistically transcribed
(within the limitations of the ASCII of the e-mail) as "szievasz" (I am
sorry I cannot add some diacritics and superscripts...), hence the two
spoken Hungarian forms. The plural of SZEVASZ is SZEVASZTOK. As the
-i-like element is evident in Viennese, it may have also penetrated
Hungarian usage, as *SZIASZ/SZIASZTOK, then what is called "metanalysis"
changed the understanding of SZIASZ-TOK to SZIA-SZ-TOK, not unlike the
curious fact that there is JO:SZTOK: (: is an Umlaut, of course) beside
JO:TTO:K (the phenomenon is not the same, but the presence of a spurious
-SZ-, inspired by the singular in the latter case, is a common
denominator). The result is a singular SZIA. If the metanalysis business
is a little farfetched, the pain may be soothed by realizing that in
expressions like this, abbreviating is a general tendency, e.g earlier
KO:SZ, now more KO:SZI for KO:SZO:NO:M.
                Ga'japotnok,            R
+ - Re: Szia! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Robert!
That is an interesting and valid argument.  Words are often transformed
especially when they cross liguistic boundaries.  To me, however -- and i
hope I am not arguing with a linguist which I am not, -- it seems that
the SZIA may have come from the Americanized SEE YA in the same way as
different fashionable forms of CIAO (I heard CSAO, CSO"SZ, etc.)  SZERVUSZ
seems to be a straight adoption of the Latin SERVUS, which may havre come
through the German.  What do you think?

Best, Arjun.

On Sun, 14 May 1995, Robert Hetzron wrote:

> Let me submit my private little theory about the origin of the greeting
> form SZIA. Of course, it has nothing to do with "see you", as HALLO has
> nothing to do with Hungarian HALLOM "I hear it". This are instances of
> what is called "folk etymology".
>         Let us not forget the intermediary shape SZEVASZ which was more
> common in my youth, SZIA came later. Now, in Viennese German, SZERVUSZ is
> pronounced in such a way that could be impressionistically transcribed
> (within the limitations of the ASCII of the e-mail) as "szievasz" (I am
> sorry I cannot add some diacritics and superscripts...), hence the two
> spoken Hungarian forms. The plural of SZEVASZ is SZEVASZTOK. As the
> -i-like element is evident in Viennese, it may have also penetrated
> Hungarian usage, as *SZIASZ/SZIASZTOK, then what is called "metanalysis"
> changed the understanding of SZIASZ-TOK to SZIA-SZ-TOK, not unlike the
> curious fact that there is JO:SZTOK: (: is an Umlaut, of course) beside
> JO:TTO:K (the phenomenon is not the same, but the presence of a spurious
> -SZ-, inspired by the singular in the latter case, is a common
> denominator). The result is a singular SZIA. If the metanalysis business
> is a little farfetched, the pain may be soothed by realizing that in
> expressions like this, abbreviating is a general tendency, e.g earlier
> KO:SZ, now more KO:SZI for KO:SZO:NO:M.
>                 Ga'japotnok,            R
>
+ - more on Hunglish and "mongrelization" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I have really appreciated the discussion going on about "Hunglish" and the

blending process of languages in contact with one another.  It seems that,

at least in my case, my perspective on this reflects my priorities and

hopes for international relations.  My own agenda is definitely pluralistic,

and I consequently see the evolution of languages through borrowing and

assimilating as enriching, rather than threatening.



I've been writing a paper on the history of ethnic conflict in Transylvania,

and have come across a theory which seems relevant to this discussion.  The

author posits that nationalism and insularity can be correlated to a nation's

insecurity about its own identity.  He believes that Hungary's chaotic and

painful history results in a relatively young and "insecure" (quotes because

I don't want that to appear derogatory) national identity.  Does nationalism

and reluctance to interact with international forces result from this?  And

back to linguistic debate, does this cultural instability contribute to

insularity on the point of borrowing words?



Thanks again for everybody's interesting contributions.



Peace --

Scott
+ - more on Hunglish and "mongrelization" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I hope this wasn't posted twice; a slip of the hand, and I think it went to
e-mail heaven.  Sorry if you got the first draft also.

I have really appreciated the discussion going on about "Hunglish" and the
blending process of languages in contact with one another.  It seems that,
at least in my case, my perspective on this reflects my priorities and
hopes for international relations.  My own agenda is definitely pluralistic,
and I consequently see the evolution of languages through borrowing and
assimilating as enriching, rather than threatening.

I've been writing a paper on the history of ethnic conflict in Transylvania,
and have come across a theory which seems relevant to this discussion.  The
author posits that nationalism and insularity can be correlated to a nation's
insecurity about its own identity.  He believes that Hungary's chaotic and
painful history results in a relatively young and "insecure" (quotes because
I don't want that to appear derogatory) national identity.  Does nationalism
and reluctance to interact with international forces result from this?  And
back to linguistic debate, does this cultural instability contribute to
insularity on the point of borrowing words?

Thanks again for everybody's interesting contributions.

Peace --
Scott
+ - WORD WAR III (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The following two skyscrapers were constructed circa 1986 and are part of a
multiligual series entitled WORD WAR III, A Tale of 2 Cities, The Sequel.
The skyscraper below is entitled SZAR and belongs in the city Dedicated
to the Dictatorial Death of Democracy.

               CZAR
               SZAR
               SZZAR
              SZAZAR
              SZARZAR
             SZARSZAR
             SZARNSZAR
            SZARNOSZAR
            SZARNOOSZAR
           SZARNoroszAR
           SZARNOKROSZAR
          SZARNOKEROSZAR
          SZARNOK-EROSZAR
          SZARNOK-EROSZAR
          SZARNOK-EROSZAK
          SZARNOK-EROSZAK
          SZARNOK-OROSZAR
          SZARNOK-OROSZAK
          SZARNOK-OROSSZAK
          SZAR     ROSSZAK
          SZAR     ROSSZAR
          SZAR        SZAR
          SZAR        SZAR


The skyscraper below is entitled SZABADADA and belongs in the city Dedicated
to the Democratic Death of Dicatorshit.

                         F
                         R
                   L I B E R T Y
                         E
                         D
                         O
                         M
                         DADA
                        DADADA
                       DADADADA
                      DADA  DADA
                     DADA    DADA
                    DADA      DADA
                    DADA SZAMIZDADA
               SZABADADA-SZAMIZDADA
               SZABADADA-SZAMIZDADA
               SZABADADA-SZAMIZDADA
               SZABADADA-SZAMIZDADA
               SZABADADA-SZAMIZDADA
               SZABADADA-SZAMIZDADA
               SZABADADA-SZAMIZDADA
               SZABADADA-SZAMIZDADA
               SZABADADA-SZAMIZDADA
               SZABADADA-SZAMIZDADA
               SZABADADA-SZAMIZDADA
               SZABADADA-SZAMIZDADA
               SZABADADA-SZAMIZDADA
               SZABADADA-SZAMIZDADA
               SZABADADA-SZAMIZDADA


The Poetburo of the Peoples Repubublic of Poetry, instructed the Ministry of
Extraordinary Affairs to develop a proto-typo-graphical attack artcraft,
armed with air-to-air stanzas, and able to withstand all forms of
multimediocrity. The following was the result:

                           recreation
                          wrecreation
                         wreckreation
                       WRECK-creation>....................................
                          re-creation
                            re-action
                             reaction
           CREATION CREATION CREATION CREATN
                             reaction
                            re-action
                          re-creation
                       WRECK-creation>..................................
                         wreckreation
                          wrecreation
                           recreation


Once the proto-typo-graphical attack artcraft was tested and stabilized, the
Creative Intelligence Agency began to stealthilize it to optimize its
verse-ability in airy nothings. As units of verse of the unitverse, the
artcraft was modified for specialized functions, eg.: to waste banality in
the anticipated and imminent Word War III.

The attack artcraft was destined to play a major role not just for the
defence of the City Dedicated to the Democratic Death of Dictatorshit, but
for the destruction of the City Dedicated to the Dictatorial Death of
Democracy.

............................................................................

The Politburo, mandated to defend mediocrity, instructed the Ministry of
Ordinary Affairs to develop a proto-typo-graphical attack craft,
armed with air-to-air binary banality, and able to repress all forms of
of artistic endeavour. The following was the result:

                              name NUMBER
datadatadatadatadatadatadata <nameNUMBER
                              namNUMBER
                              naNUMBER
                              nNUMBER
                              NaMBER
                         NUMB NAMBER NAMBER NUMBER
                              NaMBER
                              nNUMBER
                              naNUMBER
                              namNUMBER
datadatadatadatadatadatadata <nameNUMBER
                              name NUMBER

Once the proto-typo-graphical attack craft was tested and stabilized, the
Centralized Intelijence Agency began to conform it to optimize its
adverse-ability in airy nothings. As units of adverse of the unitverse, the
artcraft was modified for specialized functions, eg.: to waste spontaneus
creativity in the anticipated and imminent Word War III.

The attack craft was destined to play a major role not just for the
defence of the City Dedicated to the Dictatorial Death of Democracy, but
for the destruction of the City Dedicated to the Democratic Death of
Dictatorshit.

For a brief period of historical time antidemocratic farces in Hungary
developed a cruel proto-typo-graphical aero-prose to repress any spontaneous
serendipity with cadences of liberty. This is what was developed:

                                      SZARNOKsag
zsarolzsarolozsarolzsarolzsarolzsarol<ZSARNOKI
                                      SARNOKI
                                      ASROKI
                                      RASKOI
                                      RAKSOI
                               RAKOSI RAKOSI RAKOSI RAKOSI
                                      RAKSOI
                                      RASKOI
                                      ASROKI
                                      SARNOKI
zsarolzsarolozsarolzsarolzsarolzsarol<ZSARNOKI
                                      SZARNOKsag


This was safely countered by a specialized proto-typo-graphical artcraft
developed for the flights of fancy engaged by FALUDY, George and co. This
is what that artcraft looked like.

                                POETentacy
                                Potentacy
                                POETency
                                Potency
                         POETRY POETRY POETRY POETRY
                                Potency
                                POETency
                                Potentacy
                                POETentacy


This was not the end of the creative forces that not only defended Poetry.
The mandate was openly offensive. The forces of banality, multi-mediocrity
and repression were to be crushed permanently, perpetually. So the following
artcraft was developed to supplement the rest:

                      LIFE Sense
                      LIE Sense
                      LIesence
                      Licence
                     POETIC
                      Licence
                      LIesence
                      LIE Sense
                      LIFE Sense

This is not the end.

--
Wally Keeler                                    Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency                    is
Peoples Republic of Poetry                      Poetency
+ - VOTE NO ! - 2nd CFV: soc.culture.hungarian (replaces (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear voters and non-voters, netters and all of you who have received
calls for vote against the soc.culture.magyar group !

We are asking for your help to keep the name of the
soc.culture.magyar group, the main USENET group of the
Magyar (Hungarian) people all over the world.
We are going to address several questions and finally we
hope you are going to vote against this proposed name change.

1, MAGYAR vs HUNGARIAN
+ - Re: immigration into Canada (free evaluation) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I hope that those who wish to immigrate to Canada have enough
common sense to go to the nearest Canadian embassy or consulate
to get the very same information  'Kelet Michtina L.L.C' (what is LLC
anyway ?) shamelessly advertise on internet.....

Can Hollosi Jozsi cut out this messages ?
+ - szia (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I believe the expression comes from "szervusz", that is from the Latin
word.    Szervusz eventually became szevasz, than szia., sziasztok.
Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
+ - Washington, D.C. - summer programs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Szervusz,
Washington D.C. will offer plenty of pleasures for the lovers of classical
music, theatre, dance and other fine arts. As part of their usual annual
drive for new audiences, many companies will offer free performances over
the season. This will include the Shakespeare Theatre's annual free
performance at Carter Barron - this year it is the "Twelfth Night" with
Kelly McGillis. The National Symphony Orchestra will perform for free,
along with other performances, recitals from chamber groups.
There will be two free movie series at the National Gallery of
Art, covering almost the full repertoire of Marcel Pagnol and Michelangelo
Antonioni (Blow-up,Zabriskie Point, La Notte etc.) .
Maryland will host its NOI Philharmonic series, together with the Marian
Anderson Vocal arts Competition and Festival, accompanied by evening
recitals and chamber music concerts.
The Hungarian Embassy continues its concert and exhibition series during
this summer.
Hungarian festivals, meetings and conferences will be held all over the
USA during summer - the New Brunswick Festival is coming up on the 3rd of
June!
Please, stay tuned, and look for the information here or  in my "Calendar",
that can be found under my WWW homepage.Feel free to copy any information
from there and redistribute it to your friends.
The important is to reach more Magyars (Hungarians ) or
friends of the Magyar culture and provide them with interesting and
affordable high quality entertainment.
You can also contribute to this list of programs, either by posting from
my homepage, sending a mail to  or posting to any of
the two Hungarian USENET groups.
Minden jot es nagyon kellemes nyarat,
Gotthard

--
personal email          : 
Hungarian-American list : 
WWW                     : http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard
+ - Re: VOTE NO ! - 2nd CFV: soc.culture.hungarian (replace (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

First, my apologies - I meant to forward the 2nd CFV the day it came
out, but it appears I haven't (week-&semester-end is not an excuse, but
perhaps an explanation). On the semi-positive side, now you can get it in
one batch, together with my response to Gotthard's repeat attack. One ought
to wonder why he (the self-styled "we" asking for votes against the
proposal) felt it necessary make this here in the very last week of the
voting period?!
 I am not going to answer point-by-point all his specious objections here -
it had already been done at lenght, as can be seen in the discussion
reposited in the HIX archives; to retrieve that via email, send a message to
, Subject: new - and the list of files returned pick the ones
by names starting with 'soc.culture.hungarian'!

 The main reason for the renaming is that more and more potential users
don't find the Hungarian newsgroup when try to locate following the
general Usenet naming conventions. Among the thousands of others (there's
close to 120 in soc.culture.* alone, and growing fast) which are all
named in English, soc.culture.magyar is the only one with a native name.
More elaboration is given in the RATIONALE part of the official Call
for Votes, a copy of which I am enclosing below my signature.

 The voting instructions (with further technical details explained below):
Send MAIL to:   

Your mail message should contain *one* and only one of the following
statements.  DO NOT QUOTE THIS CFV IN YOUR VOTE.
      I vote YES on soc.culture.hungarian (replaces soc.culture.magyar)
      I vote NO on soc.culture.hungarian (replaces soc.culture.magyar)
      I vote ABSTAIN on soc.culture.hungarian (replaces soc.culture.magyar)
      I CANCEL my vote on soc.culture.hungarian

Zoli , finger  for the charter of s.c.h
# Wallace Sayre said, "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter
# form of politics, because the stakes are so low."  He didn't know
# Usenet: welcome to the next level.           (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)

>From 
Date: 12 May 1995 16:00:26 -0400
From: Warren Lavallee >
Reply to: 
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups, news.groups, soc.culture.magyar,
    soc.culture.europe, alt.politics.europe.misc, alt.politics.ec
Subject: 2nd CFV: soc.culture.hungarian (replaces soc.culture.magyar)

                          LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
    unmoderated group soc.culture.hungarian (replaces soc.culture.magyar)

Newsgroups line:
soc.culture.hungarian   The Hungarian (Magyar) people & their culture.

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 22 May 1994.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party.  For voting
questions only contact Warren Lavallee >.  For
questions about the proposed group contact Zoli Fekete
>.

DISTRIBUTION
This CFV has been cross-posted to:
        soc.culture.magyar
        soc.culture.europe
        alt.politics.europe.misc
        alt.politics.ec
and EMailed to:
        
        
        

CHARTER

 The newsgroup is intended to provide a general medium for those
interested to express, share, and exchange their views, ideas, and
feelings about Hungary and Hungarian culture. Questions concerning
Hungarians living either in the country or abroad would be discussed.

 Possible discussion issues include aspects of Hungary
  - culture, history, philosophy, ideology, geography;
  - societies, traditions, customs;
  - literature, poetry, art, folklore;
  - languages, books;
  - science, technology;
  - food, cooking;
  - local events, news, programs, economy;
  - communities abroad, problems, needs; and
  - other things normally discussed in the "soc.culture" newsgroups,
   in particular, politics is an appropriate topic.

 The group shall be unmoderated.

 The language used is either English or Hungarian, by the choice of
the poster. Posters should bear in mind that using English makes
their writing accessible to non-Hungarians as well as most Hungarian
Usenetters, who tend to understand (or are, at least, able to read)
English. Hungarian writers are encouraged to use their native tongue
when the topic is likely to be of interest to Hungarian speakers only
(such as questions regarding local communities or things of domestic
significance). It is recommended that authors of substantially long
contributions include a short summary in the other language, if they
can. Keep in mind that using Hungarian will unavoidably cut almost all
non-Hungarians out of the discussion! On the other hand, this ought not
to prevent having threads running in Hungarian, if there is interest
for such. Many newsreaders can utilize "Summary:" or "Keywords:" field
designations to aid readers in selecting articles prior to reading
them, this could be used to indicate the language used in the article.
Generally it is a good idea to use "Subject:" titles in the language
corresponding to the rest of the post, too! Note that articles are often
crossposted to other groups as well (usually ones concerning neighboring
countries), in which case English should be used.

RATIONALE

 Currently no Usenet newsgroup bears 'hungarian' in its name.
This omission makes it difficult to locate the newsgroup dealing with
such interests (the bit.listserv.hungary gatewayed group is not in the
main hierarchies, and suffers from very poor propagation). There is
obviously a great need for a newsgroup dealing with the issues outlined
above in the charter, and soc.culture.magyar has been such for the past
four years. The name of that group, however, does not conform to the
established Usenet conventions; it is also somewhat misleading, given
that its traffic is mostly in English, contrary to what the native
language name may suggest. Experience has shown relatively small
audience, few authors and low traffic for that group. This suggests
that many people are unaware of its existence - indeed there is
anecdotal evidence for many persons, even Hungarian speakers, missing
s.c.m because of its irregular name. It appears that only perhaps a few
hundred users are reading the newsgroup - to be compared with the
several thousand subscribers to the Hungarian email lists (which, in
turn, serve still only a small portion of Hungarians worldwide).

 In the view of the proponent, it is necessary to create a newsgroup
with an English name: soc.culture.hungarian. The standardized name
should help more patrons locate the group, furthering its goal to
provide a global link for all people interested in Hungarian affairs.
The creation of the new group would also enable us to write a new
charter, thus to eliminate the restriction imposed in the s.c.magyar
charter for English only discussion language.
 I suggest that the existing s.c.m should be superseded by the new
group. Not keeping the former would prevent the confusion of having
two similar groups with different names. The option of one single group
was preferred by the majority of participants in the debate prior the
CFV.


HOW TO VOTE

Send MAIL to:   
Just Replying should work if you are not reading this on a mailing list.

Your mail message should contain *one* and only one of the following
statements.  DO NOT QUOTE THIS CFV IN YOUR VOTE.
      I vote YES on soc.culture.hungarian (replaces soc.culture.magyar)
      I vote NO on soc.culture.hungarian (replaces soc.culture.magyar)
      I vote ABSTAIN on soc.culture.hungarian (replaces soc.culture.magyar)
      I CANCEL my vote on soc.culture.hungarian

Neither ABSTAIN nor CANCEL messages are counted as votes; they serve
only to cancel any previous vote. Abstentions are noted in the final
vote list, whereas CANCEL removes your vote from that list entirely.
(This is the only difference between the two.)

Anything else may be rejected by the automatic vote counting program.  The
votetaker will respond to your received ballots with a personal acknowledge-
ment by mail - if you do not receive one within several days, try again.
It's your responsibility to make sure your vote is registered correctly.

If you later change your mind you may vote again; only your last valid
vote will count.

Standard Guidelines for voting apply: no more than one vote per person,
no more than one vote per account. If you attempt multiple votes or
other vote fraud, all your votes may be canceled and your name published.

The complete vote list will be posted with the vote result, including
how each person voted. Note that Usenet votes are not done by secret
ballot.

There will then be a five-day period during which the published vote
list may be corrected and any irregularities addressed. The
requirements for group creation are 100 more YES votes than NO votes,
and 2/3 of all counted votes being YES.

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