Hi Robert!
I looking for a software for hungarian ABC. If you know something about
it
where can I get it please let me know.

New World Telecom needs Agents in Europe to market international
call-back services.  E-mail  or call 512-263-1393 in the
USA ask for Jim Haile.  Thank You,
Jim Haile

Hi folks,

I am looking for someone in Sydney to teach me some Hungarian.  I know
next to none so far but can already speak French, a bit of Romanian,
German and Latin, and then tiny bits of Welsh, Irish and Scottish Gaelic.
The idea would be to spend maybe an hour or so a week just talking (or
trying to at first!) for an agreed amount.

If anyone is interested I would be grateful if they could respond to my
email account, not to this newsgroup.

Thanks

Chris
> ===================================================================
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 Sydney's prime studio for digital editing and MIDI music creation
        Ring Chris on 015 241 222 or Colin on 015 240 000
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
 Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in
  any form, in whole or in part. Copyright, Chris Stephens, 1995.
   Licence to distribute this post is available to Microsoft for
                    ONE MILLION US DOLLARS.
Posting without permission constitutes an agreement to these terms.
> ===================================================================

I looking for software for hungarian ABC. If anybody know were can I get
it
please let me know.

Seems I succeded in throwing down the gauntlet... Laborfalvi Benke
Tibor takes "historicism" in a very narrow sense: I don't particularly
mean the exact positions endorsed by Ranke, Dilthey, or Troelch (and
neither did Popper). To me (and as far as I can see, to Popper)
historicism is _any_ method based on the tenet that to understand
something you must understand its history first and foremost. In this
broad sense, Hegel and Marx were historicists (indeed, the title
harkens back to "The poverty of philosophy"), and so were the
neogrammarians. Since it is precisely the methodological priority of
diachronic studies that I'm calling into question, I think Popper's
work in this direction is highly relevant. But it is by no means the
only such work -- Ferdinand de Saussure precedes Popper by a good 40
years.

> Popper, maintains, following Hume, that induction can never lead to
> 'proof', because no matter how often an event might recurr, the
> probability that it will recurr again is not affected.
Yes indeed -- the only thing affected is our estimate of this
probability. But I'm less interested in arguing the merits of Popper's
views (which I find quite reasonable) as in the general question of
history and historicism in the broader sense. I'm also not interested
in naming contests whether only predictive science merits the name
`science'. In brief, I see three kinds of activities that are in some
sense scientific, or at least can be so: first is the collection of
facts or philology (again generalized from its narrow sense in
linguistics), second the effort to organize these facts or taxonomy,
and third the building of models and testing them against experiments.
History does lots of the first, some of the second, and practically
none of the third.  As for the loaded term `explanation' it seems
obvious to me that neither philological nor taxonomic activities can
furnish any -- only models (some would say only causal models, but I'm
not so picky) can be said to explain things.

> Are you saying that the turkic root words in Hungarian, or the latin root
> words in English tell us nothing about the way those languages are,
Yes. It's perfectly possible to imagine a version of English in which
the word for `coach' has Germanic, rather than Hungarian origins. It
is true that such objects were built in Ko1cs, but they could have
equally well been built in Darmstadt and called `darm'. There is
nothing in the language itself that makes `coach' necessary -- it is,
as any linguist will tell you, a `historical accident' not a
`structural feature'.

> nor about the history of the people concerned?
No. You can make reasonable inferences about contact or lineal descent
among languages, and this often carries over to ethnic groups. But such
inferences explain nothing -- this is pure philology. As such, it is
a valuable tool in learning about past situations of which we have no
(or few) other reliable sources of information, but as the old saying
goes, no language changes as fast as proto-indoeuropean.

> whatever that effect may be, it is not mechanical and straightforward.
> Once we have understood that point, we need to discern empirically,
> how interest (both in the political/economic sense and in the
> cognitive sense), activity (Work, Play, Conflict , Competition, and
> Cooperation) and externalities (the environment and the 'economy')
> interact to produce the results we _experience_.  I think this is a
> long range problem, and certainly not resolveable by us in this forum.
I agree. I'm not even saying it's entirely hopeless (just look at the
tremendous progress biology made since Darwin) but it's not there
_now_.  I again challenge the professional historians and
history-buffs on HUNGARY to come up with a single reason why we should
look at things prior to 1975 to help us determine how Hungary should
act vis a vis Romania and Slovakia.

As for Ga1bor Fencsik's correction about the mountains I certainly
didn't want to put words in his mouth, so let's stick with El Nino.
> As long as we are faced with persistent and recurring phenomena such as
> these, we can make use of the past as a guide to understanding the present
> even if we are clueless as to why anything at all should be persistent and
> recurring.  Simply by plotting the path of past hurricanes, we can notice
> certain regularities.  This might lead to understanding of a certain sort,
> even though our ability to make predictions about the next hurricane is
> extremely limited.  This sort of "understanding" does not necessarily
> imply predictive power.  But the fact that we can all agree to call the
> thing a hurricane already shows that it fitted into our preexisting
> (historical) notions of how the world works.
Well, these are statistical models, and statistics always implies lack
of knowledge. Sometimes this lack of knowledge is fundamental to the
phenomenon (as in trying to do conjugate measurements on particles)
and at other times it can be removed as better models come along.
Semmelweis didn't have a firm explanation why anatomy lessons and
puerperal fever were connected, but he had a heckuva statistical case.
The cause-effect chain was positively established only later, but good
statistics can already predict things. So what is it, statistically,
that we need to take into account from the 1000+ years of
Transylvanian history to make any decisions today? Actually, feel free
to use any mixture of statistical and causal reasoning that you find
relevant -- like I said above I'm not picky.

> the charitable assumption is that the words "explanation"
> and "understanding" are taken in a strong (Popperian?) sense implying
> the ability to make predictions.
Yes indeed. I'm eagerly awaiting some better notion of `explanation'
or `understanding'. Your definition/examples should of course reflect
on the practice of science, not on everyday usage of these words.

> Making predictions about future linguistic evolution may indeed be
> hopeless, but in the ordinary sense of the word, the history of
> languages does seem to explain a great deal about why they are the way
> they are today.  How come the English and German words for wolf are
> the same?
"how come" is right -- we don't know how it came about, and more
importantly, we don't know why it came about. It _is_ a historical
accident. Perhaps there were reasons for some Germanic tribes to
migrate the way they did, but we are rather clueless about these
reasons. Perhaps there was a reason why the product of the Levi
Strauss Co. outsells the product of the Lee Co. so much that we can
refer to blue jeans as levi's but not as lee's.

> And how is it that the Hungarian word for "bellybutton" seems to have
> come from Turkish?  If historical explanations don't work, what does?
Spreading your arms, palms outward, and uttering the magic formula
"Ha1t mettodome1n?" works well in these situations. What this gesture
lacks in deep explanatory power is more than adequately made up by its
honesty.

Andra1s Kornai

A YASUTOMI ) wrote:

: I am now thinking whether I should follow the Hungarian way of putting the
: names, namely, Lastname First (like Kovacs Laszlo) or not.

i feel compelled to point out that hungarian does *not* put the last name
first, but rather, in hungarian the order is *surname* first follow *given
name(s)*.

: For Hungarians, how would you feel if English (or any other Indo-European
: language user) people use the English way like Laszlo Kovacs in
: English-written documents?

many hungarians go even further and translate their given names,
so i doubt that there would be many complaints. of course with
names like "rozsa peter" or "gabor miklos" an ambiguity arises
unless you specify whether your are writing given name - surname
or surname - given name

: Can somebody suggest me whether I should stick with the Hungarian way to
: write Hungarians' names or not in my (englilsh) thesis?
: By the way, this happens to Japanese (my native tongue) as well. When I
: read something in English and see Japanese names in Firstname-Lastname
: order i somehow feel different.
:     Atsushi
:               
:
d.a.

Andras Kornai throws down another gauntlet:

"I agree.  I'm not even saying it's entirely hopeless (just look at the
tremendous progress biology made since Darwin) but it's not there
_now_.  I again challenge the professional historians and
history-buffs on HUNGARY to come up with a single reason why we should
look at things prior to 1975 to help us determine how Hungary should
act vis a vis Romania and Slovakia."

My response (as both a professional historian and a history-buff) is to
say that history DOES NOT, SHOULD NOT, and probably CANNOT tell us "how
Hungary should act vis a vis Romania and Slovakia."  That's not exactly
what Andras's words say, but even in the strictly literal interpretation
I am skeptical of history's ability to "teach" things.  Whether it could
"help us determine" a course of action?  Well, possibly.

If we divide the idea of "how Hungary should act" into two dimensions,
one ethical/moral and the other political, then it would seem to me that
in practice historical studies may offer help in the latter, but hardly
the former, dimension.  At least, no matter how contingent on context our
moral and ethical standards are, they claim to be universal and their
application, whether it's white Wisconsonians vs. Chippewa or Slovaks,
Romanians or Rom vs. Hungarians, ought logically to be the same no matter
what.  Human rights are human rights, or they do not exist.

But politics: isn't that a question of pragmatic policy?  Do you not have
to take into account in making political policy choices how your opposite
numbers will react, how the other side will "play" an issue?  For a long
time (and, alas, probably a long time to come) historical or historicist
arguments will be a very large part of the political arsenal of all sides
in international relations.  To understand the probable reaction abroad to,
let us say, the "prime minister of 15 million Hungarians" statement, don't
you have to consider _something_ of the historical record?  Otherwise,
neither the statement, nor the response it received in Bratislava or
Bucharest, makes much sense, does it?

I find the quest for an understanding of history aesthetically satisfying
in itself, and as I said before I don't think its validity as a pursuit
depends on any sort of claims to scientific (predictive) abilities.  But
it may simply be that I don't understand the nature of the argument that
Andras, Gabor and Tibor are conducting.  Still, it makes fascinating
reading.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

Need help locating relatives in Hungary.  Sending my father there for his
75th birthday for a  3 week visit in September, want to locate relatives.
Grandfather emigrated from a town listed as Adorgan in Szatmar during the
1920's.  We can't seem to locate such a town on modern maps of Hungary.
Any ideas?  We'd also like to locate any Hudacsko family members there or
in other parts of the country.  Any ideas on that?  Is there a way to
access telephone directories, government records etc to search for these
people from here or ia there someone there who can do such a search.  Any
help would be greatly appreciated.  We're at a total impasse and don't
want father to miss an opportunity to connect with his roots.

Sorry for this mundane request, but does anyone on this list have the
address of the medical faculties of the university at Pecs.  Both
snail mail and e-mail addresses would be helpful.

Thank You!



**********************************************************************
$  Jimmy E. Hilliard      $                    $  Tel: 706-542-3646  $
$  Professor of Finance   $                    $  Fax: 706-542-9434  $
$  University of Georgia  $                    $                     $
$  Athens, GA, 30602 USA  $                    $                     $
$********************************************************************$
$  Internet:        CompuServ 74544,3064  $
$                                                                    $
**********************************************************************

Hugh Agnew observed:

>If pushed to the wall, I suppose I would admit that I'm a historian
>because it's fun (my mother-in-law would say, it beats working for a
>living!).

Oh, yes, loads of fun, for some people at least. This observation of Hugh
reminded me of myself just before applying to graduate schools. The graduate
school I wanted to get into most asked the applicant to write an essay
entitled: Why History? I was coming up with the most forced, wooden,
false-sounding little essays which all ended up in the wastepaper basket. In
my agony I went to one of my favorite professors (American Colonial History)
and I confessed to him that I seem to be unable to write anything decent on
this subject which would sound at all convincing. And he said, "Oh, there is
a very simple answer to this question. Go home and think about it." I went
home and a few hours later I had the answer: I love doing it! I got into the
graduate school.

Eva Balogh

P.S. And one more thing, especially doing diplomatic history (my own field)
can be like being a detective in hot pursuit. Robin Winkler of Yale
University actually wrote a book entitled The Historian as Detective.

Bela Szepesi wrote in his "2 lessons" among other things:

Under Point #1:

Quote
<It is quite futile,therefore, for
any nation in Europe to try
to become genetically 'pure'. >       Unquote

Unconditionally agreed. I should roast in hell's fire if I created the
impression
that either Dr. Makkay or I would even consider such a proposition.
The question is simply when (and how) did the Hungarian language
(which is equally impure by the way) arrive on the Danubian plains.

Under Point #2:

Quote

<It is time to put an end to ethnic repression in Europe. >  Unquote

It is my very firm opinion that Dr. Makkay's thesis is a powerful
contribution
towards that goal.

(Pure) ethnicity is very much what is behind the traditional account of the
arrival of the Magyars. Isn't it remarkable that the very word <honfoglalas>
is of such beguiling innocence? The rest of the story doesn't help much
either
in instilling in young minds the historical roots of and continued need for
tolerance.

Makkay's account goes a long way towards destroying false nationalistic
myth building.

Tisztelettel,           tiha

I am a Hungarian wisiting fellow in the US and inform you about the living
costs in Hungary:
accommodation at the middle priced hotels between 90 and 140 $, in smaller
private motels 60-70$
food is very cheap in the shops, in an avarage regular restaurant a complete
lunch (soup, main course, dessert) 10-13 $ and a bottle of beer 1.5 #
in a high quality restaurant at the city center: 25 $
public transport is convenient, a daily ticket for everything (metro, bus,
tramway) 1.7 $, one ticket .20 $
Be careful with taxi at the airport! Use the MALEV Air Co. offered minibus
service, this is the most secure.
The curency is Hungarian FORINT 1 US $= 130 Ft
Hungary is very nice and Budapest is great cultural centre! Go and see!
All the best, Laszlo Vass

Kedves Sanyi Bacsi, En 10 honapig a csaladommal D.C.-ben vagyok visiting
professor, a felesegem papai es en veszpremi vagyok, Papan jartam iskolaba. Ha
ez Gyor kornyekenek megfelel, akkor tisztelettel jelentkezem.
A legjobb egeszseget kivanva: Vass Laszlo

Kedves Csaba,
En a kovetkezo tanevben Washington, D.C.-ben vagyok Fulbright osztondijas a
politikai elet kozeppontjaban levo egyetemen es a kozigazgatassal foglalkozom.
Ha tudok tenni valamit az Elektronikus Tozsdeert, szivesen teszem, valami
tudositas-felevel is, ha tudok. Zsoltot udvozlom, o tudja ki vagyok.
A legjobbakat:  Dr.Vass Laszlo
 edu

Gabor, you did not say whether you want DOS or WINDOWS.  As the latter is
the system of the future, here are the data: Eastern European Library has
26 typefaces thet has every letter of Hungarian. The address is: Cassady
& Greene, 22734 Portola Drive, Salinas CA 93908-1119. Ph.:
1-800-359-4920. FAX 408-484-9218.
        I won't give you the data of the one in LA: that's a package deal
with a word processor that is rather poor.
        For DOS you also have to have the complete Nota Bene: several
hundred dollars. An excellent word processor for humanists, especially
for linguists.
                                Greetings,
                                        Robert

 wrote:

><It is quite futile,therefore, for
>any nation in Europe to try
?to become genetically 'pure'. >       Unquote
>
>Unconditionally agreed. I should roast in hell's fire if I created the
>impression
>that either Dr. Makkay or I would even consider such a proposition.

Whether you agree or disagree, why would you  think that you'd 'roast in
hell's fire' for considering the idea.  Do you hate all of the ethnic
groups in Europe that much to want to see them disappear?  Why is French
culture ok, but French ethnicity a horrible thing to preserve?  Would you
say the same thing about the ethnic group native to the occupied country
of Tibet, for example? Or either the Hootoos or Tutsies, who are fighting
each other along ethnic lines?

Don't misunderstand, the Hootoos and Tutsies should  respect each other
as people and as ethnic groups, and should not be killing each other over
ethnic identity, but they are also entitled to their ethnic identity and to
it's preservation.  Just as we value all cultures, it is right to value
ethnic identity - one goes hand in hand with the other.

Paul

Tiha von Ghyczy wrote:

>Makkay's account goes a long way towards destroying false nationalistic
>myth building.

Regardless of what Makkay wrote about (I haven't read it), there is
nothing inherantly wrong or horrible about nationalism.  Nationalism
based on mutual respect among nations is the best ideology for the
preservation of cultures and nations.  It allows cultures to evolve
through contact gained by working together, while allowing each nation
to protect it's ethnic identity, and there is nothing horrible about
that.

Paul Gelencser

Nota Bene is pretty good for historians too! :-)

But for someone who really wants Hungarian word-processing, I think it
may not be the ideal solution:  it's good for someone whose main language
of use will be English but who deals with names, places, terminology,
and the odd quotation in an East European language, but it takes more
expertise with it than I have to really turn it into a machine that uses
the Hungarian typewriter keyboard, if indeed it's possible at all.  That
means that for every non-standard letter you have a three keystroke
operation, which indeed you can get pretty fast at.  Its ability to
produce all the diacritical marks and other alphabets that it does is
not really its strongest point, however.  Other features are even better.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

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*********************************************************************
 *** MET ***  MAGYAR ELEKTRONIKUS TOZSDE SZERKESZTOSEGE *** MET ***
       V. evfolyam.                         HU ISSN 1216-0229
*********************************************************************

                             ToZSDENAPLo

   Julius vegeig erosodo arak, azaz bika (bullish) hangulat

jellemezte a tozsdei gabonapiacot. Ennek oka egyreszt a vartnal

szolidabb termeseredmeny, masreszt az Europai Unio

gabonatartalekainak csokkenese, mely erositi exportlehetosegeinket.

   A malmibuza arfolyama szeptemberi szallitasra tonnankent 13800

forintig emelkedett, majd augusztus elejere ezen a szinten megallt.

Az oktoberi hatarido piaca 14750 forintig erosodott, majd szinten

tartott maradt. A decemberre szolo jegyzesek - nyilvan a spekulacios

toke forro penzenek hatasara - 15600  forintig kusztak fel, es

varhatoan csak az eladasok hatasara kovetkezik be majd a gyengules. A

termelok mindenesetre jol jartak, mivel a kockazatot mar a speklansok

viselik. 1996. szeptmnberere emelkdtek az arak, de csak a 14800

forintos ajanlat, es nem vasarlas miatt. Jovo ev oktoberi

hataridejere az aremelkdes csitulni latszik, es a tonnankent 16000

forint koruli szint e piac csucsat jelezheti.

   Szakertoi jelzesek szerint Iden a buzatermes mintegy 40 szazaleka

-varhatoan- csak takarmanyminosegu lesz. Igy a szeptemberi hatarido

kurzusa atakarmanybuza piacan tonnankent 11600 forinton alldogal. A

takarmanyarpat oktoberre 10400 forinton jegyeztek. Az oktoberi

takarmanykukorica aremelkedese lassult, Akik azonban meg juius vegen

vettek belole, augusztus eljen mar mintegy 1500 forinttal dragabban

adhattak el, 12200 foirintert.
                                  (orczanc at mars.sztaki.hu)


 //////MET, HU ISSN 11213-0229///////

******************************************************************
*** MET ***  MAGYAR ELEKTRONIKUS TOZSDE SZERKESZTOSEGE *** MET ***
       V. evfolyam.                         HU ISSN 1216-0229
******************************************************************

                          ToZSDENAPLo

    Augusztus kozepen tovabb emelkedett a szeptemberi szallitasra

jegyzett malmibuza tozsdei arfolyama a Budapesti Arutozsden, es

elerte a tonnankenti 14300 forintos szintet. Ez igen szep nyereseget

hozott a befektetoknek, hiszen majus kozepen meg 10500 forint korul

lehetett hozzajutni. Az oktoberi kurzus tonnankent 15000 forintig

emelkedett, majd 14800 forintig tarto csokkenes jelezte, hogy a piac

nem honoral magasabb arszintet. Az eddigi erosodes hattereben

mindenkeppen az exportlehetosegek alltak, de tudomasul kellett venni

a tozsdeszinpad szereploinek, hogy a mintegy 2 millio tonnas

exportaru-alap tul nagy falat. A piacok atrendezodese ellenere vevo

meg volna, de eroteljesebb exporthoz mar szuk az orszag szallitasi

keresztmetszete. Minden bizonnyal ezert allt meg augusztus kozepen a

decemberi buza jegyzese is - 15700 forinton. Reg ota tartott a

januari malmibuza 16500 forintos arfolyama. Aki viszont vett belole -

spekulacios alapon - az  marciusra szep nyereseggel, 16900 forintert

adhatta tovabb. 1996 szeptemberere mar emelkedett a jegyzes, es

tonnankent 15250 forintos szintet ert el.

   A kukorica tozsdepiaca az ellentmondasos hirek hatasa ala kerult.

A tengeritablak novenyein az Alfoldon felszaradas jelei mutatkoztak,

mig a dunantuli tajakon - kulonosen a zivatargocok hatasara - jobb

termes varhato. Az oktoberi takarmanykukorica ara az augusztus 8-an

jegyzett 12950 forintos rekordjarol a ho kozepere 100 forinttal

esett vissza. Az uj termes novemberi hataridos arfolyama iden sokaig

a 11000 forinton tartott, majd 13350 forintra erosodott, kesobb 100

forinttal gyengult. A decemberi kukoricat 13700,  majd 13690

forintert vasaroltak. 1996 marciusi szallitasra 15250 forintert adtak

a tozsdei kukoricat. A kozkedvelt "majusi morzsolt" 15900 forintba

kerult, noha korabban 16050 forinton allt.

                                    Orczan Csaba Sandor

 //////MET, HU ISSN 11213-0229////////