Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 602
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-03-09
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 AMERICAN NATIONALS IN BUDAPEST (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Hungarian Diminuitives (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
3 BALASSAGYARMAT - WHERE IS/WAS IT??? (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: AMERICAN NATIONALS IN BUDAPEST (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: WWI or WWII? (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
6 A suggestion to Janos Zsargo (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: BALASSAGYARMAT - WHERE IS/WAS IT??? (mind)  73 sor     (cikkei)
8 IWW (was, Re: WWI or WWII?) (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: A suggestion to Sam Stowe (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
10 Hungarian get-together in San Francisco, CA, Friday, Ma (mind)  56 sor     (cikkei)
11 FW: AMERICAN NATIONALS IN BUDAPEST (mind)  57 sor     (cikkei)
12 To Johanne L. Tournier (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
13 Sam, cool it! (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
14 World War I (mind)  49 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Bokros's resignation (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
17 Romans and Romanians (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
18 Diminuitives (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
19 Great tour of Budapest (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
20 WWII (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)

+ - AMERICAN NATIONALS IN BUDAPEST (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Looking for info re 12 month assignment in Budapest.  Interested in life
style, cost of living, safety of Americans, health concerns, culture,
taxes, travel,etc.Should I go and leave my family for 12 months for good
paying job?
+ - Re: Hungarian Diminuitives (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I must have missed the original question,or problem about Hungarian
diminuitives.But having been born and raised there and living there until
I turned 21,I feel like I know a lot  about the everyday life in
Hungary.To tell the truth it has never crossed my mind to be hurt or
insulted by being called Kati instead of Katalin.From younger or
older,male or female.And I don,t think you insult anybody older if you use
for example Zoli bacsi instead of Zoltan bacsi.It sounds almost kinder
from a younger person to do so.Of course you don't go up to the lady in
the shoe store or the hotel or any place and call her Mari,because her
name tag shows Balogh Maria.But then again you don't go up to her and call
her Maria either .The only way you would adress her would be Ms.Balogh or
Balogh kisasszony.Unless you get to know her on a first name basis,where
again it shouldn't matter if you say Mari or Maria.I hope I made myself
clear.Maybe not but then just set me straight.By the way, any of you speak
hungarian?And going back off and on?
+ - BALASSAGYARMAT - WHERE IS/WAS IT??? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

My father was born in Balassagyarmat, Hungary, during the 1930s.  Can
anyone tell me where Balassagyarmat was, and if it still exists today?

Also, if it is no longer, how can I access my father's birth records?
Where?  Does anyone know?

Thank you in advance,

Val
+ - Re: AMERICAN NATIONALS IN BUDAPEST (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

If you have access to WWW try Http://www.hungary.com.  You'll find plenty of
info.

Alex
+ - Re: WWI or WWII? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Eva Durant
> writes:

>Just who is my bunch and what way I am not forgetting or
>learning from the past?  I like all snide remarks qualified...
>(I don't remember ever having a wish to repeat any part of
>past unlike some and the latest racist/chauvinist correspondent.)
>
>
>Eva Durant
>
>
>------------------- Headers --------------------
>Path:
>newsbf01.news.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!news-e2a.gnn.com!howland.rest
on.ans.net!paladin.american.edu!auvm

You yearn for your Marxist-Leninist past with every post, you bearded
Stalinist goat. Your every utterance on her is filled with that yearning.
Sam Stowe
+ - A suggestion to Janos Zsargo (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Janos Zsargo > writes:

>These are very serious charges
>and I don't think I gave any reason for them. So I suggest you to cool
down
>a little bit, think it over again before you continue the debate.
>
>Janos

Why? You've been spouting this crap on this thread ever since your first
post. I tried being reasonable with you at first, but, like most
extremists, you're unamenable to reason. If you insist on posting
anti-American revisionist drivel to bolster your own radical politics,
don't expect to get a free ride. That's what a free market of ideas is all
about. So, tell the truth -- are you one of Torgyan's followers? You sure
sound like one.
Sam Stowe
+ - Re: BALASSAGYARMAT - WHERE IS/WAS IT??? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Val;

At 08:42 AM 3/8/96 GMT, you wrote:

>My father was born in Balassagyarmat, Hungary, during the 1930s.  Can
>anyone tell me where Balassagyarmat was, and if it still exists today?
>
>Also, if it is no longer, how can I access my father's birth records?
>Where?  Does anyone know?
>
>Thank you in advance,
>
Balassamagyarat still exists.  It's a fairly sizeable town--right on the
Slovak border, about 40 km northeast of Esztergom.  Esztergom is on the
Danube.  If you can find Hungary's Highway 2 on your maps proceeding north
from Vac (Vac is due east of Esztergom), note the junction of Hwy. 2 and 22.
Follow 22 northeast--it goes into Balassamagyarat.  Balassamagyarat is in
Nograd county.  I've found the town on several maps.

For records, you might try either the county or the local church parish.  If
you want help, there is a genealogical company that has been mentioned on
this net group that does work in Hungary, and several other East Central
European countries.

        Family Tree Genealogical Research Bureau
        H-1055 Budapest, Falk Miksa Utca 8
        Hungary

        tel/fax: (36-1) 131-3569


Also about 10 years ago, the Mormon Church had microfilmed virtually all the
parish records between roughly the 1600's and 1905-10, and supposedly were
still working on extending that collection on both ends of that time range.
The microfilmed records included both parish (for all types of churches that
existed in each area) and civil records; birth, marriage, death and military
records.  There are additional books identifying every possible government
civil servant throughout the empire's and nation's histories, also.  Not all
the local LDS libraries have the books; sometimes those are available only
in Salt Lake City, Utah, USA.

If you have an LDS (Latter Day Saints--formal name of church) library near
you, you might check their microfiche indices to see if the microfilm
collection of Nograd County records  now include later generations.  You can
view the microfilm reels (if they exist) through the LDS libraries by paying
the library a small fee of shipping and handling of a rental copy that will
be sent to the local library from the main library in Salt Lake City.  The
library will then allow you to use its microfilm viewing machines when the
copy arrives.  You cannot take it home with you, but it also saves the cost
of buying a large and expensive microfilm reader for occasional use.

It takes anywhere from 2-6 weeks, though, to get the copy--depending upon
how many copies have previously been made from the master copy in Utah, and
what the demand has been.  If you are traveling to Salt Lake City; the LDS
has a huge library and archives with not only the microfilm parish and civil
records, but any additional written materials they ever been able to obtain.
There are personal diaries, Bibles, previously researched and written
genealogies, land records, biographies and autobiographies, county
histories,  national histories, church histories, etc., etc..  You name it,
there's probably something of that genre there for some group or region.
You can spend months in that library and never read absolutely everything
for just one person's extended paternal and maternal families.

Good luck in your research!

Sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA
e-mail: 

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA
+ - IWW (was, Re: WWI or WWII?) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:30 AM 3/8/96 -0500, Sam Stowe, belittling Eva Durant, wrote:

>You yearn for your Marxist-Leninist past with every post, you bearded
>Stalinist goat. Your every utterance on her is filled with that yearning.

Sam,

Hungarians celebrate International Womens Day (which is today) with flowers
and greetings, not put-downs.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: A suggestion to Sam Stowe (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:30 08/03/96 -0500, Sam wrote:

> You've been spouting this crap on this thread ever since your first
>post. I tried being reasonable with you at first, but, like most
>extremists, you're unamenable to reason. If you insist on posting
>anti-American revisionist drivel to bolster your own radical politics,
>don't expect to get a free ride. That's what a free market of ideas is all
>about. So, tell the truth -- are you one of Torgyan's followers? You sure
>sound like one.
>Sam Stowe

Sam -

Now you're the one who sounds like you've lost it. I have tried to think of
a post from Janos that sounds like "anti-American revisionist drivel," but
so help me, I haven't been able to think of any. I think you should cool it
on the personal innuendo - I think you are just making a false assumption,
and you know what you do when you ass/u/me something, don't you?

Usually, I think there's some merit in your postings, in some more than
others, but this thread is not worth its bandwidth!

Yours,

Johanne

Johanne L. Tournier

>
>
+ - Hungarian get-together in San Francisco, CA, Friday, Ma (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

One of these year's I'm going to actually get both notice, and important
details, of an event more than 5 days before--and I'll faint.  My apologies
to anyone else for this very late posting, as a result of some details only
becoming known today.

OK, for those who live within the larger northern California metropolitan areas
:

The Hungarian Consul-General from Los Angeles, Dr. Imre Helyes, will be
giving a "state of Hungary" speech for members (and friends) of the
Hungarian American Chamber of Commerce, San Francisco area chapter, on
Friday evening, March 8.  A dinner is included, for those who can and wish
to attend that portion.  Dinner costs $23 for members and $26 for non-members.

The location is the Big Sky Ranch Restaurant (old Paprikas Fonos--and it
still has a Hungarian menu in addition to a "western" menu); Ghirardelli
Square, 900 North Point Blvd. (fifth floor,southwest corner of complex).

Reception is at 6 p.m.; dinner at 7 p.m.; speech at 8 p.m.

RSVP is to the honorary consul and current President of HACC, Eva Voisin, at
tel: 415-595-0444; fax: 415-595-3976.  If you are intending to come for
dinner, call or fax ASAP--like before noon California time Friday March 8.

EXTRA HIGHLIGHT--IMPORTANT PLEASE NOTE: we have a very strong possibility of
the major Republican candidate running for the 14th Congressional seat being
in attendance at this event.  His name is Benjamin Macalester Brink, and he
already has prior interests in Hungary.  Besides being a CEO of a small
high-tech start-up company, and having previous high-tech and venture
capital experience; he has also been an officer in the U.S. Navy and
Reserve.  He currently still holds the rank of "commander" in the USNR and
has members of his unit currently serving in both Hungary and Bosnia--and he
just trained them for this special assignment.  He is also personally a
friend of both William Perry--yes, _that_ William Perry and George
Schultz--yes _that_ George Schultz.

Upon his election in November, Ben could be a powerful voice on behalf of
Hungarian concerns in the U.S. Congress--and have even greater additional
influence through his Naval connections in the Administration... Ben's
campaign office has said they believe he and his wife will be coming to this
event.  Thus this will be an excellent opportunity for Hungarian Americans,
particularly from the Southwest SF Bay area to become acquainted with this
candidate, in a smaller group setting, where you might get to enjoy
lengthier conversations than elections usually permit.

Sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA, USA
e-mail: 




N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA
+ - FW: AMERICAN NATIONALS IN BUDAPEST (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>From Drums711 on 08 March 1996 02:40

Looking for info re 12 month assignment in Budapest.  Interested in life
style, cost of living, safety of Americans, health concerns, culture,
taxes, travel,etc.Should I go and leave my family for 12 months for good
paying job?

I'm also looking at an assignment in Budapest for 2 years, but with =
family.  I've been for a look and see visit and I've noted some quick =
comments below.=20

Life style

Seems to be work hard, play hard - lots of social activity.  Opera and =
theatre I've heard are good

Cost of living

Accomodation is going to be the biggest cost - and it is important to =
get a good location, preferably in Buda, II and XII district are popular =
with ex-pats - particularly XII for Americans (due to the American =
international school).  Look to spend big bucks, more than you do at =
home - up to $2,000 a month, in hard currency, for a three/four bed.  =
Running a car is also expensive.  But everything else - food, =
entertainment, travel, shopping, is cheap.  Don't be conned by what =
appears to be a good salary.  If you want to live in a cheaper place, =
then there are plenty, but don't expect the same standard as at home!

Taxes

Highest rate is 48%, which kicks in at $8,000.  But you do get an ex-pat =
exemption of 25%, making your marginal rate 36%.  But it looks like the =
ex-pat exemption is going down and the top rate up, so try and get tax =
equalisation if you can.  Otherwise you could find yourself paying 50% =
plus.  This compares to circa 20% in Warsaw.  But if you start in the =
last 6 months of the year (ie from July) you should be able to get the =
first pay cheques tax free, depending on the US/Hungary tax treaty.

Ex-pats

As far as I could tell, ex-pats seem to be leaving now - ie there is a =
net outflow.  But there is still a demand for the right people - =
generally experienced business managers.

Economy

Is very tough.  Everyone is finding it hard, with wage settlements not =
matching inflation.  The ceasefire should help a lot.  Outlook could go =
either way - ie either absolute economic disaster and meltdown or =
initially slow, but then faster growth.  This is mid-election cycle so =
you can expect the economic medicine to be hard.  But western companies =
are continuing to pile in.  Cancellation of Expo last year was a bad =
missed opportunity for desperately needed infra structure improvement.

Travel

Ideal central base.
+ - To Johanne L. Tournier (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Sam -
>
>Now you're the one who sounds like you've lost it. I have tried to think of
>a post from Janos that sounds like "anti-American revisionist drivel," but
>so help me, I haven't been able to think of any. I think you should cool it
>on the personal innuendo - I think you are just making a false assumption,
>and you know what you do when you ass/u/me something, don't you?
>
>Usually, I think there's some merit in your postings, in some more than
>others, but this thread is not worth its bandwidth!
>
>Yours,
>
>Johanne

Thank you very much!

Janos
+ - Sam, cool it! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam,

       Your behavior is very disturbing. You have no reason to
    get bent out of shape. And if you think you do,  went your
    anger privately. We don't care for such out of control be-
    havior.
       You seem to have an ego problem.  So either go and have
    therapy or go somewhere to learn how to behave.
       I guess your  idea of  free speach  is that  people are
    free to say anything as long as they agree with you. Sad!
       Please shape up!
                           Amos
+ - World War I (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I promise that this will be my last posting. I got back from Hungary two
days ago and this morning I began going through the mail from this list.
This is how far I got:

        This is Sam Stowe:

> The only interventionism in Hungary during this century
>>has been through direct military occupation, by the Romanians for a few
>>months in 1919 and by the Russians for close to 50 years. You fabricate an
>>argument that seeks to limit or absolve Hungary for the role it played in
>>creating its own historical tragedy during this century. Hungary was not
>>some Third World colonial entrepot in 1914. It was, in many ways, the
>>stronger of the two major nations in the Habsburg entity. Hungarians
>>entered World War I as willing combatants, just like the Austrians, the
>>Germans, the Russians, the British, the French and the Italians. When it
>>entered the Second World War in June, 1941, Hungary did so as a willing
>>ally of the Nazi German state. Your belief in Hungary as a victim of
>>Western perfidy may play real well in right wing circles there. But it's
>>the same cheap avoidance of responsibility common to alcoholics and
>>wife-beaters. Hungary and Hungarians deserve a lot better.

        This is Cecilia:

>They sure do, and it doesn't look like they're getting it from this posting
>to which I am replying.
>
>Sam, just what college do you teach graduate students at anyway?  You have
>several times expressed the idea your own beliefs and pronouncements ought
>to be accepted as fact because you "teach graduate students at a college."

        Well, here is a genuine Hungarian for you who is siding with Sam
Stowe. As far as World War I was concerned Hungarian interests were
paramount in declaring war on Serbia. After all, the Austrian side didn't
have to worry about the idea of a Great Serbia as much as the Hungarian side
did. Although it is a well known fact that Istvan Tisza, prime minister of
Hungary, was originally against the declaration of war and his approval was
constitutionally necessary for such a declaration, Hungary did fully and
freely participate in the war. (By the way, I don't have great moral
problems with that particular war--as we have been reminded lately, ideas
concerning the establishment of a Greater Serbia might not be terribly
attractive!) As for World War II although Hungary was, along with the other
East-European nations, under a great deal of pressure from Germany, it did
declare war on the Soviet Union on its own volition--Germany didn't even ask
for Hungary's participation. The political leadership with considerable
pressure from the military was afraid of somehow missing the boat by not
joining the German Reich which, they believed, was going to be surely
victorious.

Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Bokros's resignation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 wrote ages ago but by then I was in Hungary:

>The problem, dear Eva, is that despite high taxes, Hungarians insist on
>spending more than they have!  I agree that taxes are too high, but then
>social spending has to come down as well.  Hungarians seem to want
>extensive social support and yet not pay for it.
>You might argue that current social support services are inefficient and
>therefore not really 'extensive' (as anyone who has gone to a Hungarian
>hospital can attest), but then the govt. has to stop paying for wasted
>resources.  As I understand it, the govt. is not willing to cut back on
>social support and thus the quandry of taxes vs services.


        My stance on this is exactly the same as yours--even possibly more
radical. I have been a consistent supporter of the austerity program and the
planned reform of the whole welfare system. However, I still maintain that
taxes are too high and they lead only to further swelling of the black/grey
economy.

Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Karcsi wrote in connection with Tibor Odor's by now infamous indictment of
George Soros:

>        Whatever Mr Odor says, the simple fact remains that many Hungarians
>resent Soros "helping" with the finances of the country straight and simply
>because he is Jewish. No if`s and but`s. That`s the bottom line.

        I fully agree with Karcsi: no question that the general antipathy
toward Soros is motivated by a large dosage of antisemitism. And, by the
way, this Soros-bashing has been a favorite topic of the "Forum." Every
secret and not-so-secret antisemite has a few "kind" words reserved for this
"evil" man. My reaction to all this has been to remind the honorable
gentlemen that nobody forces them to take Mr. Soros's "dirty" money but if
they do, the least they can do is to be civil. But they have difficulty even
understanding that simple message.

>I`m almost
>certain that he must have some kind of a hinden agenda (it has been said that
>that the worst Jew - in terms of being crafty - is a Hungarian one ;-)

It all depends what you call "hidden agenda." Somehow I feel that George
Soros, although he has become very, very rich, didn't really get full
satisfaction from his financial wheelings and dealings. He was more of a
frustrated scholar, or philosopher. Now that he has no serious financial
constraints he decided to implement, or at least to further, his political
philosophy, with which he became enamored as a student. Therefore, I think
that he is genuine in his desire of and hope for his declared goal of an
"open society." There is no hidden agenda there. On the other hand, I think
it is a different matter that he--most likely because of personal
vanity--enjoys the attention he attracts in high political circles from
Moscow to Prague. And so what! I would enjoy it too.

Eva Balogh
+ - Romans and Romanians (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gabor Farkas wrote:

>As far as I know, no one disputes the Romanians' claims of being the
>descendants of the Romans (as a matter of fact the Romanian language is very
>close to Latin and the territory was occupied by the Romans). What is being
>disputed by some is the Dac descendence.

        Yes, indeed, nobody disputes that the Romanian language is of Latin
origin. Not even the Hungarians dispute that. What they do dispute is that
the Romanians are the direct descendents of those Roman/Dac population which
lived briefly in the province of Dacia during its Roman occupation. Indeed,
it is hard to imagine that (1) the Latin language of a few Roman garrisons
could have had such an impact; (2) that this Romanized Dac population
survived the vicissitudes of the intervening centuries while the Avars and
the Huns and everybody else ravaged the area. Moreover, opponents of the
Daco-Roman continuity theory claim that linguistic evidence in the former
Dacia (later Transylvania) point to a Slavic population rather than a
Latin-language one. See geographic names. Finally, it is somewhat odd that
the geographic name "Transylvania" was known originally in Romanian as
"Ardeau" (or something similar, please correct me!) whose origin was the
Hungarian word "Erde'ly," that is, "Beyond the Forest." And Erde'ly's
etymology is Finno-Ugric. It just seems odd to me that a native population
would borrow from another language to describe its own geographic area.

Eva Balogh
+ - Diminuitives (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Johanne wrote sometime ago:

>And is it a no-no to use that
>term when referring to older people, and is that why some people took
>offence at Jancsi referring to Eva Balogh as "Evikem"?

        There is nothing wrong with diminuitives *in general.* Moreover, it
is not even true anymore than Hungarian is a very formal language. In the
last fifty years social customs have changed a great deal and today total
strangers are apt to use the familiar form.

        The problem with Jancsi Czifra's "E'vike'm" was that it was used in
a context which indicated disdain: a certain treatment reserved only for
women and uttered almost exclusively by men. Jancsi Czifra didn't like the
idea that a woman corrected something or other uttered by him--so came the
"E'vike'm." Believe me it was unmistakable.

>By the way, not exactly on topic - but my first name is Danish and my last
>name is French and refers to someone who is the keeper of a castle or "tour"
>in French. In my Nagyszo'ta'r I found the word *toronyo"r* in Hungarian,
>meaning "watchman, keeper/warder of a tower." So, can I safely say that my
>name in Hungarian would be *Johanna Toronyo"r*?

        Someone later remarked that Toronyo"r is not a Hungarian family name
and therefore it would sound odd in Hungarian. I agree. Instead, I would
suggest a name like O"rsi or Eo"rsi--a good Hungarian family name, invoking
the idea of "guard" or "guarding."

Eva Balogh
+ - Great tour of Budapest (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I've heard of an organization that runs fantastic trips to
Budapest...affordable, and very educational.  You can get a catalog from
En Route - Unique Travel Experiences:  1/800/316-9833.  This year's tour
is focusing on the spas and cuisine of Hungary....Yum yum yum!
+ - WWII (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh wrote:

>attractive!) As for World War II although Hungary was, along with the other
>East-European nations, under a great deal of pressure from Germany, it did
>declare war on the Soviet Union on its own volition--Germany didn't even ask
>for Hungary's participation. The political leadership with considerable
>pressure from the military was afraid of somehow missing the boat by not
>joining the German Reich which, they believed, was going to be surely
>victorious.

Here comes a rare event, I completly agree with Eva Balogh. I guess this was
the greatest mistake that Hungary did during WWII (political, strategical
mistake not moral!) and I tried to talk with Sam Stowe about this. The tragedy
of the Second Hungarian Army might have been avoided. Also we should not have
joined to the war against USA (Finnland was in state of war only with Russia
but not with the allies!). We should have not cooperate with the Germans to
kill jews, too, but it had only moral and social consequences.
By the way, as far as I know Hungary entered the war in the spring of 1941 when
Germany occupied the Balkan. Hungary (as well as Rumania and Bulgaria) got
an ultimate from England. If Hungary allowed the Germans to use her territory
for the attack than England broke the diplomatic relations, if Hungary
participated in the attack than war. England was alone against Germany at that
time and her chances were not really promising, so none of those East Europian
country was scared by the possible war against England.

Janos

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