On Wed, 11 Oct 1995  wrote:

> In article > you write:
> >FYI:
> >George Stirling has published his article with the help of the 
> >UMCP Hungarian American Association. The address -  
> >- is the address of the association and, therefore, is also read by 
> >other HAA staff members. 
> 
> So he does not have his own e-mail address yet?  Too bad, because he is
> an old aquaintence of mine and I was hoping to renew it by e-mail.
> 
> Joe

Joe, not yet.
We get his articles on discs and then return the replies to him in 
printed format. Hopefully he will upgrade and you can renew your 
connection with Gyuri. This is the reason why I asked you not to 
send personal messages to the Hungaria address. You will be able to leave 
messages for him on the FMH homepage, too, as soon as I we are
ready with it - http//mineral.umd.edu/fmh/
Take care,
Gotthard
--
mailto:
http://mineral.umd.edu/~gotthard/

If you know a taxi cab driver name peter toth please email me.  When I was 
stationed in germany as an american soldier I met him.  He loaned me money and 
I would like to pay him back.


Thank you.

In article >,
Gotthard Saghi-Szabo  > wrote:
>> 
>> So he does not have his own e-mail address yet?  Too bad, because he is
>> an old aquaintence of mine and I was hoping to renew it by e-mail.
>> 
>> Joe
>
>Joe, not yet.

Hmmm ...  I thought I sent you the above in personal e-mail, so I am
surprised you answered it here in public.  Not that I care, but this is
not the usual protocol.

Joe

In article > Kadar
Gyorgy,  writes:

>[..] en ugyanis 
>a nepiek felol erkeztem, ilyen a tudatom, de itt zarojelben felidezem 
>Illyes Gyula pentameteret magamnak s masoknak, mert sokszor hallottam 
>feluletesen idezni/hivatkozni:
>	Azt hogy a ne'p fia vagy, igazolnod, sej, ma nem azzal
>	kellene: honnan jo:ssz, azzal ecse'm: hova me'sz).

Ha a nepiesseg nalad nem baloldalisagot jelent, akkor joban
leszunk. ;^)

>	3) Hozzaadott ertek nelkul jogos-e a penzugyi nyereseg ?

A spekulaciot, ha passziv (azaz letezo lehetosegek kihasznalasara
epul) en pozitiv dolognak tartom. Azt pedig, ha valaki mestersege-
sen alakitja, majd kihasznalja az arakat -nehany kiveteltol elte-
kintve-, gengszerizmusnak tartom,

Hasonlattal elve a spekulacio az elveszo gazdasagi "surlodasi ho",
energia hasznositasa, ami jo dolog, felteve ha nem mi szorjuk hoz-
za a homokot az attetelek koze.
 
>	Hat Tamas, biztosithatlak, hogy akik kulfoldre eladtak a buzat, 
>azokat nemigen fogja erdekelni, hogy elfogy-e az itthoni keszlet,

Nem is az a dolguk, a gazdasagi szerepuk. Szerintem hatalmas elo-
relepes hogy - elmeletileg- barmely magyar paraszt megteheti mar,
hogy a gabonajat a tozsden dobja piacra, amivel magasabb arat tud
elerni, mintha a leszerzodne egy gabonafelvasarlo ceggel. Egy ar-
felhajto tenyezo a lanckeresekedelembol ki lett rekesztve.

>akik majd vilagpiaci aron visszavasarolnak [..] azoknak a hasznat
>meg majd megint azok fizetjuk meg, akik - eppen nem gabonat, hanem
>valami mast - termelnek es munkaerejuk fenntartasa erdekeben kenye-
>ret akarnak enni.

Ez erdekes kerdes. Van egy mezogazdasagi termekunk - buza- amely a
vilagpiacon nagyon versenykepes, magas arat lehet erte kapni. Li-
beralizalt piac eseten ez azt jelenti, hogy a hazai uzletekben is
vilagpiaci aron (dragan) lehet a termeket megkapni. Ha a hazai piac
nem fizeti meg ezt az arat, akkor nem lesz a boltokban liszt.

Tobb lehetoseg kinalkozik:
1. az egyik 'jo' megoldas, hogy tudomasul vesszuk, hogy ez van,
ennyit kell erte fizetni a boltban. Ekkor mindig lesz a boltban
liszt, mert a termelo mindig jobban jar, ha a hazai piacon ad el.
Az emlitett 16 centes buzaar Chicagot jelenti, csak csikagoban
annyi. Amig itthon van nalunk, a magyar buza "vilagpiaci" ara:

 x = 16 cent - szallitasi koltseg (sz.k.).

Az importkent behozott buza ara pedig

x = 16 + sz.k.

Ha elfogadjuk a vilagpiaci arakat,akkor a magyar buzanak Magyar-
orszagon elmeletileg (16 - sz.k.) es 16 cent kozotti aron kell
vevore talalnia. 

2. Nem fogadjuk el (az allam) ezeket az arakat. Ekkor ket rossz
lehetoseg azonnal kinalkozik. Az elso az, ami otthon tortenik,
a tuzoltas, az alkalmi (kiszamithatatlan) allami intervencio,
amely celja a tervezes hianyabol kifolyolag mar csak a termek
biztositasat tudja elerni. Az eredmeny az, hogy marha dragan,
de lesz buza.(Pont az ellenkezoje, mint amit el akartunk erni)
A masik rossz lehetoseg, hogy a termelonek nem engedjuk meg,
hogy vilagpiaci aron adja el a termeket. (vissza a kommuniz-
musba)
A masik 'jo' megoldas a nyersanyagbol (buza) eloallitott egyes
termekek (kenyer) kozvetett vagy kozvetlen allami tamogatasa
lenne. Ezt is lehet hulyen csinalni, peldul ugy, hogy a pekek-
nek odaadjuk a penzt. Ez burokratikus, raadasul tudomasul kell
venni, hogy a pekek hulyere fogjak keresni magukat. Hal' isten-
nek otthon kinalkozik egy termeszetes megoldas, hiszen az AFA a
csillagos eget veri. A  nulla kulcsos afa bevezete lenne a leg-
egyszerubb, mert nem igenyel (extra) burokraciat. Egyeb burok-
ratikus 'jo' megoldas van sok.(lasd EEC,EFTA, NAFTA)

>	Eddig volt, hogy nehezen tudtam Veled egyeterteni, ugyanis azt 
>varnam el egy felelos kormany es torvenyhozas munkajatol, hogy 
>szabalyzoival, torvenyeivel segitse a hazai termelest (ne avat-
>kozzon  bele, csak osztonozze a kommunizmus romjaibol maradt
>akadalyok eltakaritasat), becsulje a paraszt, a szakmunkas, a
>mernok, a tanar, az orvos, egyszoval az ertektermelo es onallo
>szakszeru cselekvesre kesz es kepes (e tulajdonsagok miatt pol-
>gar!) polgar munkajat,

Tehat tegyen ugy, mint az okos lany: jojjon is meg nem is,legyen
rajta ruha meg nem is, hozzon ajandekot meg nem is, "ne avatkoz-
zon bele, de osztonozzon". :) :)

>szoritsa vissza a  hozzaadott ertek nelkul szerezheto gazdasagi
>nyereseg lehetoseget.

Ennek egy lehetosege van: hatekony mukodes, amely nagyon ala-
posan figyelembe veszi a objektiv gazdasagi korulmenyeket. Min-
den egyeb "antispekulacios" allami beavatkozas vagy fokozza a spekulaciot
vagy sokkal nagyobb kart okoz, mint a hasznot.

Tamas

On 12 Oct 1995  wrote:

> Hmmm ...  I thought I sent you the above in personal e-mail, so I am
> surprised you answered it here in public.  Not that I care, but this is
> not the usual protocol.
> 
> Joe

Sorry Joe,
This is not the first time, I have already done it before. If the 
newsgroup line 
Newsgrps: soc.culture.magyar 
stays in the reply, as it did, my mailer dumps it to my newsgroup 
folder. I will pay more attention to it in the future.
Hope no harm was done.
Gotthard

In article > , 
writes:
>Kulonben, embere valogatja; en tovabbra is
>fentartom, hogy a Kadar jugend elnevezes nagyon talalo.  Persze azon nem
>csodalkozom, hogy azoknak nem tetszik, akit eltalalt.

Erdekes lenne tudni, hogy mi serti oket jobban. A Kadar-Hitler
parhuzam (gy.k. Hitler-jugend) faj nekik, mert szivuk melyen
meg mindig kedvelik az oreget, vagy mert a jugend-en keresz-
tul szormenten le lettek fasisztazva.

Gyanitom, hogy csak az egykori KISZ-vezetokbol lett ma-eppen-
liberalis zsurfiuk kenyeskednek ennyire, nekik ugyanis van mit
elfelejteni. Ok ugyanis mar nem elvbol voltak kommunistak,
mint az elottuk jaro generacio, hanem piszkos anyagiak miatt.
Egyetemi kollegiumok eseten ez javareszt a bufe (a kollegiumi
szeszarusitas) feletti ellenorzest jelentette. Na meg az oszton-
dijak es egyeb kedvezmenyek kedvezo elosztasat.

Tamas

I would like to ask your help in providing information about any programs
planned in Hungary and worldwide concerning the Millcentennial 
celebrations of the events of 896AD, the settlement of the Magyar 
confederation. I also would like to correct the personal webpage 
information I posted earlier which talks about the times, history, 
people, culture of the time. The webpage can be better accessed at
   http://server.snni.com/~fredh   Please try it and tell me if it is
accessible by all. 
Fred Hamori

Recently retired after 21 yrs of service in local gov't, I am 
also a certified language teacher with 10 yrs of classroom experience.
Presently I am teaching English in a local adult literacy program.  My 
students are from various linguistic  backgrounds--Mexican, Russian, 
Bosnian, Ethiopian, and Vietnamese.
	In addition to English, I speak German, some Spanish, and I am 
currently learning Polish.
	I am interested in a short-term teaching position at the 
secondary- or college level.  Upon personal acclimatization and mutual 
satisfaction, a longer-term contract may be considered.
	Your response may be directed to this newsgroup on the Internet 
or to the e-mail address .
	Thank you for your consideration.
		Ronald Sitz
		5232 E. 2nd St.
		Tucson, Arizona-USA
		85711-1311

....tegnap este, mikor kicsit korabban ultem be a teveszobaba,
-hja ki kellett szorni a malajokat, mert krimit akartak nezni-,
hogy megnezzem a Michalchewski - Michel boxmeccset, ugyanis
eppen a magyar focicsapatot kalapalta a svajci valogatott a
DSF-en. Meg mazlim is volt, lathattam a harmadik svajci golt. 

Az utolso magyar meccs, amit elotte lattam,az  *az* a mexikoi
szovjet-magyar volt. Szerintem semmit nem valtoztak. Meg min-
dig ugy futnak, mint a csigak es azota sem tanultak meg ponto-
san passzolni. A harmadik gol utan a svajciak mar at sem jot-
tek a magyar terfelre, a magyar csapat pedig csak arra koncent-
ralt,-tovabbi golokat elkerulendo -, nehogy veletlenul kivigyek a
labdat a tizenhatoson kivulre. Semmi felesleges futkosas egy 
esetleges szepitesert.

A boxmeccs viszont jo volt.

Tamas

On 10 Oct 1995  wrote:
 > In article >, Nagy Peter > wrote:
 > >SZALON letrehozasahoz, hanem a FORUM ellehetetlenult viszonyai, ugymint
 > >anyazas, bolsizas, nepnemzeti-kutyazas, szardobalas, stb. - mindket fel
 > >reszerol.  Mintha felderenge nekem abbol az idobol a "CSEPPSZ"
 > >fogalma...
 > 
 > Egyebkent fuggetlenul attol, hogy hogyan akarod karakterizalni az akkori
 > idoket, a teny az, hogy az egesz a Zetenyi-Takacs torvenyjavaslat
 > feletti vitabol alakult ki.
 Ez persze nem teny, hanem Jozsi velemenye - ami mellesleg ellentetben 
all az esemenyeknek az archivumban is lathato menetevel...

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 
"For my assured failures and derelictions, I ask pardon beforehand of my
betters and my equals in my calling." 		- 	Rudyard Kipling

In article >,  (Alexander Bossy) writes:
|> 5 ) wrote:
|> : In article >,  (Alexander Bossy) wr
ites:
|> 
|> : |> 	My point is that ALL state-sponsored high schools in Transylvania 
|> : |> were Hungarian-language
|> 
|> : All right, let me make it more simple: Name one Hungarian-language high sc
hool
|> : in the pre 1919 Transylvania supported by the state (i.e. not denomination
al).
|> : I didn't want a general answer of the kind you gave, but a supporting evid
ence for
|> : your previous statement. I have the feelin that your above statement is a 
s true
|> : as saying that all the Hungarian-language universities in Romania are spon
sored
|> : by the state (true because 'all' means none if there is none ;-))
|> 
|> 	Hi Matyas:
|> 
|> 	I got my information about schooling in pre-1919 Transylvania 
|> from Macartney.  Since he is a respected historian (with a generally 
|> pro-Hungarian slant) I do not think that he is massaging the data to make 
|> Hungary look worse than she was.  He does not supply the names of 
|> individual schools.  Let me quote one paragraph that expresses his views 
|> of the educational system after 1867:
|> 
|> 	"It is worth mentioning that all these Roumanian High schools 
|> were theological academies.  All the Roumanian schools, without 
|> exception, were denominational.  When a State school was founded in a 
|> minority district, it was always purely Magyar."


Hi Alexander,

That may be true, but I know the high schools system in Transylvania and its 
history pretty well and there was no state-sponsoresd Hungarian high school
I know of there. So, it doesn't mean that I doubt Maccartney's pretty general
statement, but I'd like to have one example (as town and a neme) so that if by
any chance I don't know the school personally, I can go and did out some data 
on it. I agree that probably "elementary" schools founded in that period by the
Hungarian state were purely Hungarian, but still for thos e villages where
there was a significant Romanian population Romanian language schools din
function (supported by the church or the community I guess). This however is 
not as bad as what is currently going on: If in a village there is at least one
Romanian child (in the Szekely regions typically the children of the policemen)
a class in Romanian has to be founded. More than that I've been in a small town
where a high schoo had to have a Romanian language class, although no Romanian
children registered. So the class ended up by being made uo completely of
Hungarian kids, who except for homeworks, answering to questions and and exams
didn't use Romanian at all... (I agree that this can be beneficial for them, bu
t
done "by force"?)

|> 
|> : And they were let to function by the nasty Hunagrians.
|> 
|> 	The Hungarian government had some nasty policies.  That does not 
|> make the Hungarians nasty.  Likewise, the present Romanian government has 
|> sone nasty policies.  That does not make Romanians nasty.
|> 

agreed.

|> : |> 	I do not advocate doing unto the Hungarians as the Hungarians did 
|> : |> unto us.  My reasons for this vary from the purely Christian, namely 
|> : |> "turn the other cheek", to the pragmatic: if we keep "doing unto others
 
|> : |> before they do unto us", reconciliation is impossible. 
|> 
|> : explains why Hungarian-language high schools shouldn't be allowed to funct
ion in
|> : Transylvanie, i.e. not to do to others what they did to you...
|> 
|> 	Quite the reverse.  Hungarian-language schools should be allowed 
|> to function.  Not only that, but the Romanian state should support enough 
|> Hungarian-language schools to fill the demand for them.  And that demand 
|> should be determined by parents (and older students), not by the state.

You see, it looks that simple. And I'm sure that thsi would have prevented many
sad events of the last five years in the inter-ethnical relations in Transylvan
ia
(e.g. Marosvarashely/Targu Mures). I think that beyond the educational and some
cultural problems (such as the theatres) the keyword is local autonomy, without
 
any reference to ethnicity/religion/race/..., with some laws on general human 
rights.

|> 
|> :  But, when 
|> : |> Hungarians demand educational rights today, I do believe that an 
|> : |> acknowledgement that what happened last century was wrong would help.  
|> 
|> : What do these two have to do with one another?
|> 
|> 	Because history remains very much alive not only in the Balkans, 
|> but also in neighboring regions, like Transylvania.  To pretend that ethnic 
|> Romanians have, or will soon, forget what they see as "Hungarian 
|> oppression" is shortsighted.  A better approach is to acknowledge the 
|> wrong that happened last century, and make sure that similar wrongs do 
|> not happen - or continue to happen - today.

I must repeat that Romanians (not only yoy) must also acknowledge the wrong
they did to Hungarians in Transylvania during the "Romanian oppression" ;-)
(because we may see it as such as well...). On the other hand I don't think
that asking for this kind of acknowledgements from either side is good, i.e.
it only leads to dead ends (if you don't I won't either...)

|> 
|> : I believe in those educational (and
|> : not only) rights, however I don't think I have to acknowledge anything or 
to
|> : apologize for anything more than any Romanian in the street should apologi
ze
|> : to me for the deeds of Romanians.
|> 
|> 	Since I doubt that you were involved in the Magyarization 
|> policies of the turn of the century, there is no need for you to 
|> apologize.  What I am interested in developing as an ability for people 
|> from both ethnic groups to acknowledge the wrongs that were commited on 
|> the other side.  Failure to bridge that gap means that ethnic tensions 
|> cannot be relieved.

agreed again.

|> 
|> : On the other hand I don't care what Hungary,
|> : the Hungarian guvernment does or declares - that's mostly just politics.
|> 
|> 	Politics can exacerbate tensions. It matters - just consider the 
|> Hungarian reaction to the asinine things that the Romanian government is 
|> doing with foreign flags.  I'm sure that you do care about that one.

I do care about it, but doesn't relate it in any way to Hungary as a state, or 
to
the Hungarian government. For me the flag is the National flag, not in the
sense it is used in English (and in Romanian), but as it is used in Hungarian,
i.e. a Nation (nemzet) as opposed to a state/country (orszag). The same with
the athem. I'm not the kind of person who would go out into the streets and 
sing an athem or carry flags. However both of them are close to me. This is
especially true for the flag. It has been a tradition (emotional) in Hungarian
communities in Transylvania to gather around the radio at midnight on newyear's
eve and listen to the poem 'Szozat' by Worosmarthy Mihaly and sing the athem
along with the wireless. This is something I am still doing and will always do
(even if I'll be alone with the radio) because it is part of me. Besides I thin
k
that the Hungarian athem is wonderful in what it says and it has another qualit
y
it hasn't been changed (because it didn't have to) at every change of political
system...

|> 
|> : I don't
|> : even care whether they sign that treaty: that wouldn't change anything in 
the
|> : situation of the Hungarians in Transylvania.
|> 
|> 	You are looking at it in reverse.  The Hungarian and Romanian 
|> governments will both sign the treaty - but only WHEN things change for 
|> Romania's Hungarian minority.

Maybe they will (even without the WHEN) because they both want to be accepted
in the European organozations, and at a certain point this may be more importan
t
to them than playing their domestic policy cards. 

[...]

|> : |> After all, if forced Magyarization was O.K. then, then why isn't forced
 
|> : |> Romanianization O.K. now?
|> 
|> : Another nice example of your pragmatism, or just a counterexample?
|> 
|> 	Basic human rights have to be universal.  If forcing Romanians to 
|> send their children to Hungarian-language schools before 1919 was morally 
|> acceptable, then forcing Hungarians to send their children to 
|> Romanian-language schools today is morally acceptable.  If forcing 
|> Hungarians to send their children to Romanian-language schools today is 
|> wrong (and it is), then forcing Romanians to send their children to 
|> Hungarian-langauge schools before 1919 was wrong (and it was).  Call it 
|> pragmatism or a counterexample if you will; I shall call it basic morality.

!!! after all if killing "african Americans" was OK, why isn't it OK for them
to kill white people? (is this the rationale?). I don't think so: times have
changed... or at least should have.

[...]

|> 
|> :   The 
|> : |> neighboring peoples have already come to that conclussion.  Significant
 
|> : |> Hungarian populations live among them.  Reconciliation can only help 
|> : |> those hungarian minorities develop a modus vivendi with the ethnic 
|> : |> majorities.  While all sides win in ethnic peace, the weaker group wins
 
|> : |> disproportionately.
|> 
|> : These sound nice, but what do you want to say?
|> 
|> 	While all of Transylvania's (and Romania's) population will gain from 
|> ethnic peace - they can focus on economic and cultural development, the 
|> Hungarian minority will gain disproportionately.  After all, you will be 
|> able to name your soon what you want without some petty bureaucrat 
|> telling you that it isn't a Romanian name.  You will be able to fly any 
|> flag that you want.  You will be able to send you child to a 
|> Hungarian-language school to study whatever he wants.  These are all 
|> democratic rights that will benefit ethnic Hungarians much more than 
|> ethnic Romanians.  But, they are democratic rights, and everyone should 
|> enjoy them, regardless of ethnicity.


agreed.

|> 
|> 	Alexander


Matyas

P.S. Sorry for the possible typos, but I typed this in a great hurry.
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My mother is selling some collectible letters and autographs of
artists, musicians (mostly classical), writers, and historical
figures who may be of interest to readers of this newsgroup.  (They
are being sold as part of a large auction later this month in Bethesda,
Maryland.)  For examples of some of the letters my mother is selling, and
how to get an auction catalog or send bids by mail or phone, see the
message titled "! Letters, autographs (arts, music, historical, lit.)"
in newsgroups:                                                 

       alt.collecting.autographs
or
       rec.antiques.marketplace

(The item of most interest to this newsgroup is a handwritten draft of a 
telegram from LAJOS KOSSUTH.  The telegram is to Gustavus Hebbe, and says 
simply, "Come immediately to New York.  Answer by telegraph."  It is 
dated 1852.)

Randy Steer.

My mother is selling some collectible letters and autographs of
artists, musicians (mostly classical), writers, and historical
figures who may be of interest to readers of this newsgroup.  (They
are being sold as part of a large auction later this month in Bethesda,
Maryland.)  For examples of some of the letters my mother is selling, and
how to get an auction catalog or send bids by mail or phone, see the
message titled "! Letters, autographs (arts, music, historical, lit.)"
in newsgroups:                                                 

       alt.collecting.autographs
or
       rec.antiques.marketplace

(The item of most interest to this newsgroup is a handwritten draft of a 
telegram from LAJOS KOSSUTH.  The telegram is to Gustavus Hebbe, and says 
simply, "Come immediately to New York.  Answer by telegraph."  It is 
dated 1852.)

Randy Steer.