||Bela Liptak's Green Party (mind)
|| 5 sor
||Re: (no subject given) (mind)
|| 108 sor
||Maly Gyres info (mind)
|| 15 sor
||Re: Anti-Americanism (mind)
|| 194 sor
|| 15 sor
|| 38 sor
||Democracy Upon Us- with regarts to Lajos Elteto (mind)
|| 31 sor
||Hyphenated Canadians (mind)
|| 24 sor
||Re: Transylvania II (I thought I set no mail) (mind)
|| 31 sor
||Re: Democracy Upon Us- with regarts to Lajos Elteto (mind)
|| 43 sor
|+ - ||Bela Liptak's Green Party (mind)
Notwithstanding with Imi Bokor's claim, Bela Liptak's Green Party IS an
|+ - ||Re: (no subject given) (mind)
In article >, Sandor Kristyan
> 1.: Liptak Bela does very well! That is not against
> your country but for Hungarians in Transsylvania.
> Anyway, what do you mean your country? Current Romania
> with or without Transsylvania? For example, where do the Baltic states
> or Ukraine, etc. belong ? To the Sovjet Union, or Romania, or
> they are independent states ? Liptak Bela and we the others
> fight for our home land when we speak up for Hungarians
> in Transsylvania.
As Darren Purcell explained to you, Transylvania nowadays is mostly
inhabited by Romanians. I cannot conceive Romania without Transylvanya,
therefore, whenever I mention Romania I don't let TS aside. Of course,
I fully agree with Hungarians' right of living on the Transylvanian
soil where they were born, and living according to their customs.
> 4.: What would you say if Budapest made decision on
> Romaninan schools in Bucharest? And any complain would be
> considered as against Hungary...
I'm not sure I understand. For the moment, Hungary and Romania are
different countries; we'll talk later after they both join the EU.
> 5.: Let us talk stright : Transsylvania SHOULD NOT belong to Romania.
> Borderlines were shifted by outsider forces. You may reserve
> the right to say Transsylvania SHOULD not belong to Hungary.
> But a fair point of reference could be at least in a
> "common rule" over that area. Even the autonomy is not enough.
I don't agree, but somehow I don't have time to argue.
> 7.: And one more fact : Hungarians are not minoroties in Transsylvania,
> only if you divide with the population of the whole Romanian population,
> or the whole European population, or so on. Why do not you
> deivide Transsylvania population by the population in current Hungary
> and Transsylvania?
I guess the last census pointed at Hungarians representing 1.6 millions
in Romania. While TS population is around 7 million, what exactly do you
mean by "Hungarians aren't a minority"? It's elementary maths!
> 8.: Anyway I am glad you read this media, and hope other Romanians
> (will) do it as well. It must be crystal clear for you what
> Hungarians feel.
Well, it is. Though in time I managed to find that Hungarians are not
all alike, and not all of them are eager to sacrifice in order to do
history work their way.
> 10.: More interestingly: Is not the Romanian authorities who
> climing the Serpent Island back from Ukraine in these days, token away
> in 1947 (?)? The Romanian authorities would be very surprised
> if maps around 1947 was beeing restored in way around
> Romanian goverment... Why do not we say?:
> That was long time ago, the new owner should not give the island back.
> And anyway what is the base of the clime? There was at least one
> Romanian family there?
There was no treaty concerning the Serpent Island which, according to
international legislation, still belongs to Romania. Just some exUSSR
weaponry is still laying on it, that's all.
> 11.: Have you heard about the Slovak language law? It is called
> "Protection of the slovak language". Let me translate to you
> from slovak to slovak : In the today's "weekday sovinist" Slovakia
> it means a "ban on Hungarian language among Hungarians, and
> enforcing the slovak language among Hungarians". But the real lie
> is in the Appendix : It does not have any affect on minorities
> (=Hungarians). Hungarians are the largest minority in current Slovakia,
> who are majorities in the area where they are, anyway. Can you imagine
> that a slovak native is charged for speaking other than slovak?
> Why other countries do not have this kind of law?
> Beacuse there is no other country in the World where 20% of
> the population is not "state language" native, and where this population
> is so densely live (in the southern part). Speaking up
> against this kind of law is against the Slovak's suverinity?
> Yes, in the retorics.
Not really. It depends however on the turn things take in time. But
that was exactly what I was meaning when I commented on that someone
criticizing Eva Durant for supporting the Romanian state. It's easy
to find in a lot of your positions in support of the Romanian
Hungarian minority an attempt at the unity at the Romania state.
And that deceives me in a major way, because this is not the way
>>thorities and generally under their complete financial control. Germany
>>and the United States are exceptions, being federal in character, which
>>means that their "lower" levels of government (states and *La"nder, res-
>>pectively) have a constitutionally guaranteed autonomus existence and func-
> I hope you have red this.
> And Germany and the USA have the higest living standard on the Earth.
Come on, I hope you don't expect me buying this about the high living
standard in America. Frankly, I think yankees have a long way to go, and
they should take a closer look to Europe. High living standard doesn't mean
10% in Rolls Royces and 25% living on welfare.
PS I hope that you'll either wait til January to reply or you'll send me
a copy, because in several hours I will return to Romania for the Christmas
holiday. I wish all this newsgroup readers a Merry Christmas and a Happy
|+ - ||Maly Gyres info (mind)
I'm doing some family history research and found that my grandmother, Barbara
Ferencz, was born to Stefan Ferencz and Barbara Illesova in Maly Gyres on May
26, 1889. Her Birth and Baptism Certificate states that the godparents were
Stefan Kistoth and Barbara Lohajda, nee Illes. If there is anyone who has any
information on Maly Gyres, i.e., location, history, etc., please send email to
|+ - ||Re: Anti-Americanism (mind)
Eva Durant ) wrote:
: I don't think anyone claimed to be America-haters.
: There was talk about the usually suspect motives
: behind US foreign policy and military interventions.
: The hate is exactly what you are trying to spread,
: by calling people with different views evil.
: Your jingoistic going-on about heroic US saving the world
: doesn't alter the fact, that U.K. was allowed to fight alone
: for a long time; that had the USSR not overcome eventually Hitler's
: attack, or had the event of Pearl Harbour not happened,
: US would have waited with the saving of the world a wee
: bit longer. Making money out of the war was much more
: profitable, and that was the real gain for the US, not to
: mention taking over the markets of the fading world-powers.
: Yes, a lot of American soldiers were sent to their death,
: and it is the same horrid waste as the British or the then
: soviet people. It was all the product of good old fashioned
: capitalist competition and militarism, just what is so whole-heartedly
: encouraged by you.
: Eva, the Evil One.
Thanks , Eva. I following your posts here although not involving
myself much. Keep it up. Csaba
But back to ( Uncle ) Sam. :-)
I did not get the post below, probably it wasn't addressed to me. Anyway
I'll try to make some point more clear.
: > After reading Jeliko's well-reasoned response to Csaba's flame-bait, a
: > couple of thoughts struck me.
: > First of all, have you noticed how anti-American rhetoric is in inverse
: > proportion to the poster's likelihood of ever needing American troops to
: > haul his or her chestnuts out of the fire if the local geopolitical
: > neighborhood bully gets out of hand? I don't think it's coincidental that
: > some of the more knuckleheaded reactions on this group to America's
: > intervention in Bosnia have come from places like Britain and Australia.
: > Csaba fulminates against America and suggests I read up on Trianon
: > (translation: accept his version of Hungarian history at face value). But
Sam , I came to Australia 10 years ago, when I escaped from a
'happy barrack' in Europe.This country wasn't my first
choice ( although I'm getting used to it; takes time ),
I preferred Canada or even the US.I had relatives here so
I am an ozzie now.I am fairly young to know much about the
wars in this area 50 or so years ago but sure the versions
told here by actual australian veterans differ from your
'saviour' story.The fact is, even today, that Australia is
a big empty land mass which would be awfully hard to invade
and hold.Then there are the people here who would fight with
( illegal mostly ) guns at every corner.But the fact is we
are not even allowed to defend ourselves properly because
this country's defence is totally dominated by your country's.
You bang your chest all the time Sam and not realize I'm
not anti-American as such , but wars start out as small
skirmishes and blow out. There was a Vietnam about which
many people there still traumatised.The same can easily
happen in Bosnia and _this_ is what I don't like 'cause
it can involve neighbouring countries easily.One world
war started in Sarajevo already and that was the one which
led to the unfortunate situation now.Back to the american
war victories.Well Sam, please don't be so naive as to
believe your own propaganda and PR machine.Yes, young boys
dying in wars because they don't know better and not to go
to wars for old greedy bastards.War is business, don't
forget this.It is not charity.Please correct me but I've
heard/read that The US did not pay its share to the UN
for quite a while with some excuses, yet now is involved
in an _expensive_ military actions just to prove that he
is still the world's policeman.Pull the other one, Sam.
Someone in the end will pay, sooner or later there is a bill.
Even now , without the war really ended, the IMF and World
Bank is salivating to the thought to 'rebuild' the area.
I saw it on the news, not my concoction.Do you realize how
many countries are paying interest on old 'deeds' and are
indebted ? The total indebtedness of the world is now
bigger than the total,actual money in circulation.
In your country there is a chap whose books maybe more
relevant if you want to know about this, he is called
Noam Chomsky. Yes, look at the message, and not the medium,
: > he does so from the comfort and safety of a home in Australia. About 50
: > years ago, a lot of very young boys from the United States died miserable,
: > squalid deaths in places like the Coral Sea, New Guinea and Guadalcanal to
: > make it possible for Aussies like Csaba to live like they do today.
: > Americans learned a long, long time ago never to expect any thanks from
: > ingrates like Csaba. But things definitely could be worse for him. He
: > could be slave labor on a Mitsubishi intercontinental ballistic missile
: > assembly line right now, giving his all for the maintenance of the Greater
: > East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere and dodging drunken, murderous Kempeitai
: > on the way home each night.
Sam, please. Do not disparage oriental people.They are also inexperi-
enced to dealing with different nations, just like yours.
Practicality comes from experience and not from idealist
notions/religions.Below you say I'm an America hater,
that is false.I haven't been there ( flew over once ),
and living there I might change some of my opinion.The
strange fact is that from here we only get the worse side
of things.This could be due to the media both there and here.
Don't take criticism as evil, it is constructive and helps
in the long run.
: > Second, notice how the America haters aren't able to really quantify
: > what's so evil about America? As far as I can tell, our major crime
: > against humanity from these folks' perspective is making stars out of
: > Michael Jackson and Roseanne Barr/Arnold/Whatever and inflicting them on
: > other cultures. Now, admittedly, that's not the kind of thing one usually
: > does to people one considers friends. But is it really as evil as, say,
: > murdering several million people in death camps, like the Nazis? Or
: > emptying a city of every resident, forcing them to march into the
: > countryside and starve to death, like the Khmer Rouge? Or promoting a
: > cultural revolution through the slaughter of millions of peasants, like
: > the Red Chinese? Csaba and his anti-American buddies, to cop someone
: > else's phrase, apparently know the cost of everything and the value of
: > nothing, at least when it comes to human suffering.
Sam , don't get upset.I don't have buddies,(here they called mates)
I pretty much live alone ( reading your accusations :-) ).
No, I know the suffering, I saw it in the eyes of people
of the country I was born. In the eyes of my parents,
grandparents.You have to live there to feel it. I don't
think any american knows this feeling, they simply did
not suffer as much as Europe already did. I don't know
the costs, I just simply can't stand hypocrisy ( from
the media mainly ), the way people are kept uneducated
deliberately so they can not comprehend a simple news
article, this is what berates me.All the misinformation
which is now spread as fact, like history which is right
now is being rewritten , which only happened a few decades
: > I've been fortunate enough in recent years to listen firsthand to the
: > stories of survivors of some of this stuff -- a Polish Jew who survived
: > Auschwitz and an American who survived the Bataan Death March and four
: > years of captivity in Japan. I've also listened intently to Dr. Liptak's
: > recent account of the 1956 Revolution (sorry if you don't like that term,
I like the term, Sam. I am not a communist if this is what in your
mind.By the way, where was the US in 1956 ? I don't know, I wasn't
born yet :-). But from stories it seem they were not to keen to
involve themselves then.I don't want to go into this now but then
the big anti-communist Cold War was very suddenly became a no-no
to became warmer.This really pisses off many Hungarians, sure.
Also from my experiences so far this so called Free World has much
more common with communism as you realize.Here in this country we
still have a Labor ( leftist ) government which effectively ruined
this once prosperous country ( 60-s ); now it has more debt than
Mexico.Do not entertain the thought that a two-party system is fair
and democratic.Its a show, and the people are buying it.They think
they vote the 'other' party in. Not so.It is Big Business which says
"Ok swap over now, people are getting restless a bit".All the real
laws (taxation, for example, which benefits both parties ) are
passed without murmur; and many things about the public is not even
consulted or even know.
: > but it's the most widespread one among most Westerners) in Hungary (Saved
: > every one of them, too, so my fifteen year-old son can read a first-hand
: > account of what happened). Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who himself died at the
: > hands of the Nazi insanity, said that the more we learn and the more we
: > understand, the less provisional excuse we have for avoiding the painful
: > process of confronting evil (Of course, he said it a lot more eloquently).
: > America haters like Csaba will be the first to indulge in some
No again Sam, I don't hate America. I am just disappointed because
the propaganda about the Free World I've heard back in those days
now turns out to be false.We were duped.Or it was for people only
who will escape to became some mindless consumers in a big
: > self-adulation, seeing themselves as Bonhoeffer's heirs and battling the
: > biggest evil of them all. They're not. In fact, they're the last people on
: > earth who should try to provide any kind of public guidance on what's evil
: > on a geopolitical scale. They can't even see it staring back at them from
: > the mirror each morning as they're getting dressed.
: > Sam Stowe
Actually, now at the end I realize that my answer might go to
Eva.Please Eva sorry about my ramblings here but I will post it
and hopefully Sam will read it.Happy Christmas to everyone,
to Sam as well .
|+ - ||Assimilation/asszimilacio (mind)
There seems to be a difference in interpretation of the word "assimilation"
between Bela Liptak and those who are against the "assimilation" of Gypsies
in Hungary. I think that the misunderstanding is based on semantics. One
meaning of the word "asszimilacio" in Hungarian is "hasonulas, hasonlitas,"
meaning "becoming more like" someone else. This is what Bela Liptak most
likely had in mind when using the word "assimilation." For example, when we
talk about the "assimilation of Hungarian Jews," the meaning is not the
frequency of intermarriages between Jews and Gentiles, but rather, Jews
arriving in Hungary during the course of the nineteenth century becoming
"Hungarian" rapidly both in speech and sentiment. Talking of the nomadic
Gypsies, Bela most likely was thinking of the Gypsies adopting the norms and
life styles of the non-Gypsies and thus being more accepted by the rest of
|+ - ||Transylvania (mind)
>All realities are socially created and social includes politics. The
>reality today is that Romanians are dominant, and given census figurs
>from both sides, I am nto sure there wasn't a strong plurality at the
>time in favor of Romanian (we all know how census done by either side
>tend to underestimate ;-).
I don't have the exact figures in front of me, but according to the 1910
census, used by the peacemakers in Paris, in the ceded territories (larger
than Transylvania proper) the Romanians constituted just a little over 50
percent of the population. (It should be mentioned here that the Hungarians
in historic Hungary as a whole [not counting Croatia] was exactly the same:
51%.) In the same area, Hungarians constituted 35% of the population. The
rest was Germans, Gypsies, Slovaks, Ukranians, Serbs, and so forth.
The original Romanian demand was a border along the Tisza river (promised to
Romania by the Allies in 1916), which would have included large, purely
Hungarian territories, in addition to those border regions which were drawn
far too generously in Romania's favor in the first place. For example, the
regions around Arad, Nagyvarad, Szentkaroly, Szatmarnemeti, towns not far
from the current border, were overwhelmingly Hungarian, but the Romanians
insisted on certain railroad lines and the Allies obliged. However, the
majority of the Hungarian population lived far away from the current
Hungarian-Romanian borders in the center and south-eastern parts of
Transylvania. Drawing a "just" ethnic line would have been impossible. It was
impossible to draw a "just" line in 1941 and it would impossible to do so
Darrell suggest to Sandor Kristyan:
>Get OVER IT!
My comment: It is water under the bridge--we must find a fair solution to the
mixed population of Transylvania. But that can be done only if there is
willingness on both sides to compromise.
|+ - ||Democracy Upon Us- with regarts to Lajos Elteto (mind)
<P>Subject: Re: * WARNING * Censorship results in provocation<BR>
From: Greg Grose ></P>
<P>Louis Elteto wrote:
<P>: I personally am about to unsubscribe, ... but you, too, help keep it
Greg Grose wrote:<P>It `flows on within you and without you' (with apologies to
McCartney. Or was that Harrison?)</P>
I guess you just summed it up Mr. Grose. It flows with you, but
mostly without you Prof. Elteto. You need a permit from
Mr. Grose to write in a Hungarian newsgroup now. Thirty ears of
your dedicated life work for to the cause of building
democratic Hungarian institutions in USA and your often overly
"democratic" stand during the lenghty vigil in awaiting a free
Hungary is but water under the bridge now. Suddenly everything
flows in a different direction. Prof. Lajos Elteto, you are
hereby told by Mr. Grose to get a permit to have a say in the
affairs of your own country.
As for the big picture, another quotation comes to mind:
"How did it happen that ten million Hungarians
became slaves in their own country?"
(with apologies to Laszls Nimeth)
Greetings: Peter Kaslik
|+ - ||Hyphenated Canadians (mind)
A few days ago Joe Szalai compared Canada to the United States as the former
having an entirely different attitude toward immigrants. The United States is
a "melting pot," while in Canada there is something called "vertical
integration." (Although Joe didn't use this term, but if I recall, that is
its proper name.) Then he went on saying that he is a Hungarian-Canadian and
there are all those hyphenated Canadians as opposed to the United States,
where all immigrants are forced to become simple Americans. Well, first of
all, the "melting pot" theory of U.S. immigration patterns turned out to be
false. First-generation marriages usually take place within the individuals'
ethnic group. Second, bilingual education is widespread in the United States
and very, very many immigrants, even after decades of living in this country,
are unable to mutter out one word in English. Children who have been born in
this country, at age of ten or so speak English haltingly and with heavy
accents. This is a very odd "melting pot."
But let's return to the hyphenated Canadians. Let's assume that our
Hungarian-Canadian's daughter marries a young man of mixed Ukrainian and
Scottish origin from Manitoba. What will happen to the grandchildren? Will
they be Ukrainian-Scottish-Hungarian Canadians? And what will happen when
that grandchild marries someone who is half Irish and half English. Will the
next generation be called Ukrainian-Scottish-Hungarian-Irish-English
Canadian? Or a simple epithet "Canadian" will do?
|+ - ||Re: Transylvania II (I thought I set no mail) (mind)
> Darrell suggest to Sandor Kristyan:
> >Get OVER IT!
> My comment: It is water under the bridge--we must find a fair solution to the
> mixed population of Transylvania. But that can be done only if there is
> willingness on both sides to compromise.
> Eva Balogh
Eva, I will openly admit, I was tired when I posted that to Sandor. I
know all too well how every Hungarian of any hyphen (Magyar-Kanadai,
Amerikai, stb) can practically quote census data and I was too harsh.
However, I do appreciate your effort to bring backt he important point,
the groups today SHARE the space. Compromise is necessary. Let us all
hope that there is more movement and soon on both sides.
Sandor, I want to publically apolgize for the use fo the term, "get over
it" It was not quite fair. Howver, please be careful when you say
"should" talking about borders. There is not a border on the planet that
wasn't drawn through power and poltics. No berder is right, even in my
own country. I am waiting for Mexican irredentists to ask for California
back early next century :-)
Again, best wishes for a happy holiday.
|+ - ||Re: Democracy Upon Us- with regarts to Lajos Elteto (mind)
On Sat, 16 Dec 1995, Peter Kaslik wrote:
> <P>Subject: Re: * WARNING * Censorship results in provocation<BR> >
From: Greg Grose ></P> > > <P>Louis Elteto wrote: > </P> >
<P>: I personally am about to unsubscribe, ... but you, too, help keep it
> flowing. > </P> > Greg Grose wrote:<P>It `flows on within you and
without you' (with apologies to > Lennon and<BR> > McCartney. Or was that
Harrison?)</P> > --<P>Greg Grose</P>
> I guess you just summed it up Mr. Grose. It flows with you, but
> mostly without you Prof. Elteto. You need a permit from
> Mr. Grose to write in a Hungarian newsgroup now. Thirty ears of
> your dedicated life work for to the cause of building
> democratic Hungarian institutions in USA and your often overly
> "democratic" stand during the lenghty vigil in awaiting a free
> Hungary is but water under the bridge now. Suddenly everything
> flows in a different direction. Prof. Lajos Elteto, you are
> hereby told by Mr.Grose to get a permit to have a say in the
> affairs of your own country.
> Greetings: Peter Kaslik
thanks for sticking up for me; yet surely Greg Grose did not imply what
you have inferred. Nor has anyone tried to censor me; I doubt in fact that
I will ever give cause to H. Agnew to put me on his index of prohibited
contributors. My remark was aimed at those who respond to the kind of
drivel that caused Prof. Agnew to resort to restrictions in the first
place. By reacting to such anti-semitic (and equivalent other)
nyelvoeltoegetees (a lovely term, for which I know no English equivalent),
the respondents make it worth the scandalizers' while to keep up their end
of the eternal argument. Let them be ignored, and they will eventually
give up: talking to oneself is, after all, not very interesting,
especially for people of their caliber.
With best wishes,