Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX SCM 476
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-10-02
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Police Raids Against Roma (mind)  190 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Cognate words among the Altaic languages (mind)  63 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: MAKE MONEY NOW (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: I need contacts (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Cognate words among the Altaic languages (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: MAKE MONEY NOW (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Police Raids Against Roma (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Women: Want a USA/Canada boyfriend? (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: THE MULTI-FACED ILYA EHRENBURG (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
11 mail new friends (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Police Raids Against Roma (mind)  58 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: THE MULTI-FACED ILYA EHRENBURG (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: chin chin (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Police Raids Against Roma (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

PRESS RELEASE

 The European Roma Rights Center, an international non-governmental
 organization which combats human rights abuses against the Roma, announces the
 release of
its report "Sudden Rage at Dawn: Violence Against Roma in Romania".

 Romani communities throughout Romania are today the target of
 systematically conducted police raids and our investigations into this police 
activity revealed
gross violations of human rights and fundamental freedoms. Police
brutality seems to have replaced the previous episodes of community
violence; before, following arguments between individual Roma and
ethnic Romanians or Hungarians, angry mobs of villagers would attack
neighboring houses of Roma and chase away entire Roma communities.
Today, mob violence has been replaced by systematic harassment by law
enforcement officials. The new perpetrators of human rights abuses are
precisely those responsible for protecting the public from abuses;
violence against the Roma in Romania has become official.

 During the years of mob violence, the Romanian state authorities were
 subjected to strong 
criticism by human rights organizations for having failed to protect
the Roma minority from systematic extra-judicial punishment. The
Romanian government recognized the problem of violence against Roma
and from 1994, has taken some initiatives to confront it; a new
institution, the Department of Prevention, was created within the
Romanian General Inspectorate of the Police to develop strategies to
prevent community violence. 

 The strategies developed by the Department of Prevention have,
 however, been one-sided; 
their focus is simply preventing the Roma from committing crimes so
that the majority population will not be tempted to take the law in
their own hands. The core issue of community violence was defined as
the need to deal with the Roma minority rather than with the majority
population, since the conflicts, as the General Inspectorate of the
Police put it, were caused by "the reduced social adaptation of this
ethnic group." 

 The Romanian law enforcement establishment openly states that raids
 are a conscious 
strategy on their part. They are seen as a necessary preventive
action, a series of measures taken by the Romanian state authorities
to combat the community violence occurring in the country. The
Department of Prevention informed the ERRC  that raids are not aimed
at Romani communities more than at any other particular group in
Romanian society, since the only criterion used in selecting a target
community for a raid is the frequency of lawbreaking. Raids have,
however, not been conducted against any other ethnic group than the
Roma.

 Victims' and witnesses' statements lead to the conclusion that the
 pattern of abuse is the 
same; the police arrive in large numbers, heavily armed and in the
company of dogs. They come early in the morning-- at dawn-- and do not
present warrants or explain the reasons for their actions. They break
into the houses of Roma, force them out of bed and bring them to the
police station for interrogation. In most cases, victims and witnesses
reported severe ill-treatment by the police. Statements of the
following kind were typical:




I was woken up by being kicked... I asked them to show me a warrant
and got a fist as an answer. One policeman hit my wife in the face. I
asked them not to beat my wife, and they said that if I didn't shut
up, they would beat me, too, so I'd better shut up! ...They forced us
into the cars and brought us all to the police station. This time was
the worst ever. We were kicked and punched and they swore at us...

 In addition to police raids, the ERRC observed that the easy resort
 to shooting by 
Romanian law enforcement officials when involved in incidents with
Roma is on the rise. In Buzau on April 19, 1996, a public guardian
shot dead 35-year-old Dumitru Margean after he entered a construction
site. On the morning of May 9, 1996, a police officer shot and killed
26-year-old Mircea-Muresul Mosor in Olt County in southern Romania. On
June 2, 1996, a team of public guardians shot at a group of Roma in
the village of Coltau in northern Romania, seriously injuring two of
them, one of them so badly that his leg had to be amputated. Numerous
other incidents of law enforcement officials using firearms against
Roma have occurred in Romania the last 12 months, making it difficult
to regard such events as isolated cases. 

 It is difficult to prove that a direct link exists between raids and
 shootings by the police. 
These two forms of brutality on the part of Romanian law enforcement
officials with regard to Roma have, however, both increased over the
same period of time; one cannot avoid the conclusion that this new
pattern of official violence should be traced back to the
fundamentally flawed approach by the police and the Ministry of the
Interior to the problem of community violence. If Roma are seen as the
only source of tension, and if the strategy to prevent mob violence is
defined purely in terms of preemptive measures to stop Roma from
committing crime, then shootings and the use of excessive force by the
police will continue.

 The cases described in the 62-page report indicate a disturbing
 tendency emerging in 
Romania. They point to the collapse of legal procedure in law
enforcement and a rise in police practice divorced from the protection
of the civil rights of Roma minority members.

 In its report, the ERRC offers a number of recommendations to the
 Romanian government. 
These include:

1. Completion within a reasonable period of time of all investigations
of incidents of alleged community violence against Roma which occurred
during the period 1989-1994 and the bringing to justice of those
responsible for offenses committed against Romani individuals and
their property.

2. In cases in which this has not yet been done, the initiation of an
official investigation of all incidents of alleged community violence
against Roma which occurred during the period 1989- 1994 and the
bringing to justice of those responsible for offenses committed
against Romani individuals and their property.

3. Provision of financial support for the reconstruction of Romani
houses burned or demolished during the ethnically motivated attacks
which took place in the period 1989-1994.

4. Adoption of a clear stand against all cases of discriminatory
policies by local authorities; this includes the initiation of
positive measures against the arbitrary deviation from the
implementation of governmental decisions, against the blocking of the
right of resettlement of Roma in their previous place of residence, as
well as against the refusal to provide support and protection for such
resettlement.

5. Clarification of the purpose and methods of the police raids and
ensure the strict legality of all police operations under Romanian law
by introducing measures to improve oversight and accountability.

6. The undertaking of a critical review of all Romanian legislation
regulating police behavior and the initiation of law reform in cases
where domestic law contradicts international standards set down in the
UN Code of Conduct for Law Enforcement Officials (1979) and the Basic
Principles of its implementation adopted by ECOSOC in 1989, as well as
in Resolution 690 (1979) of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council
of Europe: Declaration on the Police.

7. Impartial investigation into all cases of alleged police misconduct
mentioned in this report and in the reports of other human rights
organizations; the bringing to justice of those who have violated the
law by exceeding their authority, or who have violated the rights of
Romani individuals in the course of duty.

8. Development of a policy of employing more members of the Roma
minority in the police force, as a strategy for building respect for
and trust in the police in the Romani communities.

9. Development, alone or in cooperation with non-governmental
organizations, of programs of legal and human rights training for law
enforcement officials, with an emphasis on the protection of the legal
rights of individuals belonging to the Roma minority.

10. Development, alone or in cooperation with non-governmental
organizations, of programs to inform the members of the Romani
communities about their legal rights.

11. Adoption of measures aimed at facilitating access to justice by
Roma and sponsoring legal assistance projects aimed at providing legal
services to disadvantaged groups, such as Roma.


Copies of the report are available from:
European Roma Rights Center
H-1525, Budapest 114
P.O.Box: 10/24
HUNGARY

Tel.: (36-1) 327 31 02
Fax: (36-1) 327 31 03

E-mail:
  

It can also be found, in full, on the ERRC homepage:
http://www.ceu.hu//errc/errcmain.html



-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency
+ - Re: Cognate words among the Altaic languages (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I'd like to put in a plug for a list of references to Nostratic 
and other macro-linguistic subjects (generally on the plus side); check 
out the books put together by Vitaly Shevoroshkin:

http://www.webcom.com/petrich/writings/NostraticRefs.txt

	"Nostratic" was a term coined by Holger Pedersen, who some decades
back noted some similarities among several Eurasian language families and
proposed a super-family he called by that name, using Latin noster "our". 

	The Nostratic hypothesis has been further developed by some
linguists in Russia, notably Vladislav Illich-Svitych; Shevoroshkin's
works contrain translations of a lot of work on Nostratic and related
subjects. In the US, Joseph Greenberg proposes a super-family he calls 
"Eurasiatic", which approximates Nostratic; he has yet to publish the 
books on it that he is working on.

	Linguists in the US and western Europe have been slow to embrace 
Nostratic; but I don't expect any serious linguist to suddenly embrace 
some unfamiliar linguistic work in a field that has been riddled with 
crackpottery.

Illich-Svitych had been careful to work with languages for which a lot of 
comparatist work had been done; he defined Nostratic as containing 
Indo-European, Kartvelian, Uralic, Altaic, Dravidian, and Afro-Asiatic, 
though there may certainly be other members.

Greenberg defines Eurasiatic as Indo-European, Uralic, Altaic, Korean, 
Japanese, Chukchi-Kamchatkan, Ainu, Gilyak, and Eskimo-Aleut.

The lowest common denominator is Indo-European, Uralic, and Altaic; some 
linguists have questioned whether Altaic is a well-defined group within 
Nostratic/Eurasiatic. So we ought to start with Indo-European, Uralic, 
Turkic, Mongolian, and Tungus, and if we decide that they fall into some 
super-family, we can move on to see if other language families are related.

In article >,
Peter k Chong > wrote:

	[some Japanese-Hungarian comparisons...]

	I'd much prefer to see comparisons done using proto-Uralic 
instead of modern languages. And I'd prefer that comparisons be done 
*systematically*. IMO, the Nostraticists have the right idea, they do the 
style of comparison that is well-known among (say) Indo-Europeanists.

>Nagy, Sándor "The Forgotten Cradle of Hungarian Culture"; Toronto, 1974
>(I can't remember the publisher. This book gives substantial information 
>on the Hungarian and Sumerian cultures and languages. It has a chapter 
>where it explains that Sumerian has influenced many other peoples 
>including Finns, Estonians, Chinese, Sanskrit-speaking peoples and 
>Japanese) 

	And how does he come to that conclusion? Similar morphology 
(agglutinative) and syntax (SOV)? IMO, those are poor grounds for 
comparison, since (for example) the Indo-European languages, whose 
relationship is undoubted, vary considerably in these.

-- 
Loren Petrich				Happiness is a fast Macintosh
			And a fast train
My home page: http://www.webcom.com/petrich/home.html
Mirrored at: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/pe/petrich/home.html
+ - Re: MAKE MONEY NOW (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Partha wrote:
> 
> Antonio Branco Nunes wrote:
> >
> > NoW???
> >
> > Ja' dei uma porrada no computador e nao saiu nada. Se continuar ainda
> > tenho e' de pagar o arranjo desta porcaria.
> >
> > Branco
> > Portugal
> What the hell was that supposed to mean ??? I'm sorry..I really didn't
> uderstand.
> Partha


HA HE HO HI HU!!

NICe one Branco!

LSS
+ - Re: I need contacts (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Manual

Contact me, I may be some help depending on your interest in contacts ???
+ - Re: Cognate words among the Altaic languages (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  says...
> ...
 >There's also another book called "Japanese and the Altaic languages" or 
 
"Japanese and the Other Altaic Languages" by Miller, Roy, Andrew (1971)

Tekin has made some comments on the etymologies from an altaicist point of 
view. 

 >something like that but I can't remember the author's name or the 
 >publishing info. If you want I could find that info for you. Just e-mail 
 >me for it. The book itself gives a very detailed and meticulous proof 
 >showing that Japanese is an Altaic language using many linguistic 
 >phonological and lexical laws.
 >
+ - Re: MAKE MONEY NOW (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Partha wrote:
> 
> Antonio Branco Nunes wrote:
> >
> > NoW???
> >
> > Ja' dei uma porrada no computador e nao saiu nada. Se continuar ainda
> > tenho e' de pagar o arranjo desta porcaria.
> >
> > Branco
> > Portugal
> What the hell was that supposed to mean ??? I'm sorry..I really didn't
> uderstand.
> Partha


HA HE HO HI HU!!

NICe one Branco!


I understand too well!!
LSS
+ - Re: Police Raids Against Roma (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Wally Keeler wrote:

>  In its report, the ERRC offers a number of recommendations to the
>  Romanian government. 
> These include:
> 1. Completion within a reasonable period of time of all investigations
> ....
> 11. Adoption of measures aimed at facilitating access to justice by


I cannot help but notice the idiocy of the EBRRC staff that issued the
recommendations.

Nowhere do they mention the root of the problem, the higher rate of 
criminal behavior by Roma ethnics, nor any effective ways to deal 
with it.

Their only concern seems their need to protect a minority of criminals.

If the Romanian government will not protect it's citizens, the citizenry
will again take that issue into it's own hands. No government, at least
not in Romania of today can survive the anger of it's populace. Next it
will be government buildings that are being burnt, not only Roma Shacks !

Thus it occurs to me, that any responsible party will, hopefuly, not only
advise how to protect a criminal class and their way of life, but ways to
change their situation, so that they no longer need to resort to crime.
This far ERRc has failed to do that.  I would not object to employment,
education and other equal opportunity measures, that adress the basics 
of this issue, with likely prospects of improvement.

Other than that, you will have no deal, you will have no progress.
If the government fails to protect the majority, the majority will
protect itself to the tune that soon the government itself will require
protecting.

m. cristian
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter I. Hidas wrote:
>
> At 11:26 AM 9/27/96, Stowewrite wrote:
> >In article >,  writes:
> >
> >>Yes, they were murdered and they were murdered when Hungary was in the
> >>hands of those germanofils who rejected the values of the Western
> >>Civilization, ... back in the XIX'c. This will hapen any time
> >>
> >>
> >
> >They were murdered with the active assistance of the Hungarian government.
> >Remember, the Germans didn't seize control of the country until the
> >process of rounding Jews up and shipping them off to Auschwitz was already
> >well underway.
>
> Hungary was occupied in March, 1944. The deportation of the Jews followed.
> Horthy and his government (Kallay) resisted and categorically rejected over
> and over the German demands for ghettoizing, branding and deportation of
> the Jews until that date. The deportation was organized in 1944 by A.
> Eichmann and his 200 agents with the support of the Hungarian civil service
> and gendarmerie.
>
> Peter I. Hidas
> Montreal

----------------------
It is clear what you are sating. Based on what
Sam Stowe  states, the rounding up of Jews happened before that date of
March, 1944. I am interested on who is right.

Albert Albu
+ - Re: Women: Want a USA/Canada boyfriend? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

TOM ALCIERE ) wrote:

: LADIES:  WANT A NORTH AMERICAN BOYFRIEND?

:         Tom Alciere is introducing a new service to help men who are citizens
: of the United States of America, or Canada, find nice, non-smoking women from
: other countries.  

[More text of modern slave trade deleted]

Give it a rest, deary me Tom. Come back to s.c.malaysia when you have
something _relevant_ to the newsgroup to contribute. Ta.

-- bg, con amore.
PS: Followup-to reset.
+ - Re: THE MULTI-FACED ILYA EHRENBURG (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Judith Toth wrote:
 
 >         Ehrenburg's incidentary writings certainly contributed in no small
 > measure to the orgy of murder and rape by Soviet soldiers against
 > German [...AND HUNGARIANS!!! -J Toth] civilians.
 >         Until his death in 1967, "his support  for the Soviet state, and for
| > Stalin, never wavered," the Canadian Jewish News notes. His loyalty
 > and service were acknowledged in 1952 when he received the Stalin
 > Prize.
 >
 >         This new revelation about one of the most influential figures of the
 > Stalinist regime shows that, whatever he may have said for public
 > consumption, Ehrenburg never privately disavowed Zionism or ever
 > forgot his ancestry.

How so? While I disagree with a lot of claims and attitudes
of Zionism, I don't see how from what you said here would
mean that this man was a Zionist. In fact in Stalinist
USSR Zionism was ruthlessly prosecuted.

Istvan
+ - mail new friends (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Szivessen leveleZnek bar kivel, magyarommat gyakorolni.  29 eves vagyok, 
egyetemet vegzet angol es francia sszakon.  segitnek is tanulni angolt az 
Interneten.
-- 
Richard E. Sipos
The world is wonderful and so are you
Thanks for writing
See you soon!
+ - Re: Police Raids Against Roma (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
cristian  > wrote:
| 
| 
| On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, Wally Keeler wrote:
| 
| >  In its report, the ERRC offers a number of| recommendations.
| 
| Nowhere do they mention the root of the problem, the higher rate of 
| criminal behavior by Roma ethnics, nor any effective ways to deal 
| with it.

That does NOT warrant the violations outlined. BTW this
issue is addressed in the previous post.
| 
| Their only concern seems their need to protect a minority
of criminals.

Their concern seems to be to preserve the rights of
individuals, the presumption of innocence and maitnatnace of
due process and equality before the law. They never say or
imply that anyone should be handled differently because they
are gypsy. Not that gypsy criminals should be treated
differently then non-gypsy criminals. On the contrary. They
insist on the same treatment of gypsy criminals as non gypsy
criminals, and innocent gypsies as innocent
non-gypsies. 

| 
| If the Romanian government will not protect it's citizens, the citizenry
| will again take that issue into it's own hands. No government, at least
| not in Romania of today can survive the anger of it's populace. Next it
| will be government buildings that are being burnt, not only Roma Shacks !
| 
| Thus it occurs to me, that any responsible party will, hopefuly, not only
| advise how to protect a criminal class and their way of life, but ways to
| change their situation, so that they no longer need to resort to crime.
| This far ERRc has failed to do that.  I would not object to employment,
| education and other equal opportunity measures, that adress the basics 
| of this issue, with likely prospects of improvement.

That is good and necessary but in no way contradictory to
the recommendations. In fact one supports the other. 
| 
| Other than that, you will have no deal, you will have no progress.
| If the government fails to protect the majority, the majority will
| protect itself to the tune that soon the government itself will require
| protecting.

Minorities and majorities should be protected from
criminals and even criminals should have the rights
guaranteed to them by constitution, due process etc. We need
to protect the populace from criminals, whether the
criminals are majority or minority, including criminals part
of the police force committing brutality, or people taking
law into their own hands, or committing other cri mes.

Istvan
+ - Re: THE MULTI-FACED ILYA EHRENBURG (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Judith Toth wrote:
> 
> >    (Charles R.L. Power) writes:
> >  From time to time we see quotes from Russian-Jewish writer Ilya
> >  Ehrenburg encouraging atrocious behavior against Germans. I was
> >  looking through an issue of NEW REPUBLIC a few days ago and noticed
> >  a review of a new biography of Ehrenburg, who seems, like Zamyatin,
> >  to have enjoyed a curious immunity from Stalin's purges. The
> >  review mentions that certain words of Ehrenburg circulated by the
> >  "right wing", urging vengeance against Germans, are in fact a
> >  forgery.
> >
> >  Can anyone out there post Ehrenburg's anti-German exhortations
> >  together with a checkable primary source? If not, I think we
> >  should all assume that such quotes are bogus.
> >  ========================================================

>         Ehrenburg's incidentary writings certainly contributed in no small
> measure to the orgy of murder and rape by Soviet soldiers against
> German [...AND HUNGARIANS!!! -J Toth] civilians.
>         Until his death in 1967, "his support  for the Soviet state, and for
> Stalin, never wavered," the Canadian Jewish News notes. His loyalty
> and service were acknowledged in 1952 when he received the Stalin
> Prize.
>
>         This new revelation about one of the most influential figures of the
> Stalinist regime shows that, whatever he may have said for public
> consumption, Ehrenburg never privately disavowed Zionism or ever
> forgot his ancestry.
>                         *
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This does not rime. He may not have disavowed Zionism but he certainly is a dis
grace to 
what  Zionism stands for, or Zionism is outside of the values of the Civilizati
on, and 
because this could not be Ilya Ehrenburg is  no more than a scum. 


Alber Albu
+ - Re: chin chin (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

What I know is somewhat different. It dates back to the 1848-49 war for 
freedom. The nowadays called Austrians executed the main (13) leaders of 
the Hungarian Army in Arad (Oradea) in Rumania. For this occasion the 
Austrians were toasting with beer, and since then it is not acceptable in 
Hungary


Greetings from Andras

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