Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 137
Copyright (C) HIX
1994-11-17
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Hungarian shield files (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Hungarian shield files (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Illegal Immigration (mind)  40 sor     (cikkei)
4 Sell off/privatisation of Hungar hotels group (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
5 Research collaboration (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
6 Russians in Hungary (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
7 HIX-HUNGARY (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Illegal Immigration (mind)  71 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Separatism or Pluralism (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
10 Pataki (the name) (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
11 Laszlo Lengyel's interview (mind)  95 sor     (cikkei)
12 Suggested Reading (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
13 HOSPITALS IN HUNGARY (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
14 US News & World Report about Hungary (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Russians in Hungary (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Suggested Reading (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: HOSPITALS IN HUNGARY (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Hungarian shield files (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello again,

Here is in detail the problem I tried to describe the other day:

I have tried to decode the files using uudecode.  I used the multiple file
option and both the .UUE and the .XXE extensions.  In both cases I got the
following displayed:

"LINE 101; Not Valid UU/EE Encoded Data

M0DV >[P   #8$ H   ]0  /,   !  @

Force decoding anyway?"

I responded YES and got the following:

"hun126.uue Successfully UU Decoded as hungshi1.bmp"


but when I tried to view it via Paintbrush, I got an error:

"HUNGSHI1.BMP

Not able to open this filebecause the format is not recognized.
Create a new file or open a valid bitmap image file"

Any ideas?
+ - Re: Hungarian shield files (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Not able to open this filebecause the format is not recognized.
> Create a new file or open a valid bitmap image file"

The file must have gotten corrupted on the way to your node.
Try to get it again from the ftp site Andras indicated.

Joe
+ - Re: Illegal Immigration (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Tue, 15 Nov 1994 22:42:00 EST W. BATKAY said:
>
>One major problem--the imposition of minimum wages, in the view of many
>economists, generally results in a *decrease* in the number of jobs, since
>many are not cost-effective at the minimum wage.  Thus the appeal of illegal
>immigrants, who *are* cost effective.  To those who argue against this on
>grounds of general humanity, remember that when the "system" works, people
>move out of low-paying, unpleasant jobs when they acquire skills, experience,
>etc., and their places are taken by *other* people.  This may be neither fair
>nor humane, but no has devised a better system than the market for getting the
>work done *and* benefitting the society as a whole.
>
--All of the above is a valid argument, even if non-Hungarian in content.
But it can work without illegals and maybe works even better if the
illegals do not have the alternative of welfare.  One reason that natives
(and I do not mean Native-Americans, a PC term originated by whites, not
"Native-Americans" themselves, I believe) don't accept entry level jobs
is because they have an alternative.

--Most of the European "gastarbeiters" are not illegals--or were not
in the beginning, although I understand that more are today.

>them.  And this applies to American agriculture, as well--the *bracero* progra
m
>was all very well, but it never provided a sufficient number of agricultural
>workers to get all the work done, hence the wide and continuing reliance on
>illegal immigrants.

--The remedy would seem to be to revive and expand the bracero program, not
to depend on illegals.

  Raise the minimum wage, round up and deport illegals, and
>I would venture to say that the rest of us would simply have a smaller, and
>more expensive, choice of foodstuffs, as in, say, Hungary, Austria, etc., etc.
>Are we seriously willing to put up with that?
>
--Ah.  The mention of Hungary.  That makes this discussion a legitimate
one for this list.  Joe Pannon, down, boy!

Charles
+ - Sell off/privatisation of Hungar hotels group (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I recently read in the (London) edition of the Financial Times
16 Nov. 94, that Bartha Ference has called on the Hungarian government
for a decision on whether foreign hotel chains (American general
Hospitality and Intercontinental) can buy a holding interest in the
Hungar Hotels group.

I would be grateful if anyone has ANY information they can give
me on the curent situation.  Is the money accrued from the sell-off
going towards the Social Security budget deficit?

Many thanks.

             ====================================
           Dr Tony MALTBY
        Dept. of Social Policy & Social Work
        University of Birmingham
        Edgbaston
        BIRMINGHAM
        B15 2TT  UK
     Tel: (44) (0)121 414 5730   Fax: (44) (0)121 414 5726
          ========================================
+ - Research collaboration (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

For all members of the List living in Britain or an EU country.

Apologies the rest of you!

I am writing a proposal which will be sent to the Joseph
Rowntree Foundation next year which will consider the
'pensions mix' and older women's income maitenance
strategies in Austria, Hungary, Slovakia and Czech Republic.
 I have collaborators in Hungary but would benefit from further
collaborators from EU/ Britain.

If you are interested please contact me asap.
Thanks.

             ====================================
           Dr Tony MALTBY
        Dept. of Social Policy & Social Work
        University of Birmingham
        Edgbaston
        BIRMINGHAM
        B15 2TT  UK
     Tel: (44) (0)121 414 5730   Fax: (44) (0)121 414 5726
          ========================================
+ - Russians in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Someone asked about illegal Russian immigrants in Hungary.

I was just in Budapest a little over a week ago and a friend of mine told me
of problems they have been having there with Russian and Ukrainian mafioso.
Recently, there had been a shoot-out (the old fashioned Chicago 1920s style)
in one of the busiest squares in Budapest (on the Pest side, but I don't
remember where - not Rakocsy) between the Ukrainians and the Russians that left
a few of them dead. Now, I do not know if these were illegals, but they do seem
to have made the police a bit more paranoid (than usual? if that is possible).
However, when I was in Budapest it was quiet, though the pollution (in the
air) is getting quite bad.

James McShane                                    *DON'T PANIC*
Queens Borough Public Library

+ - HIX-HUNGARY (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi,
I have seen several postings on bit.listserv.hungary,
that actually reached the listserver, though never appeared
on "HIX HUNGARY". Is this a new version of some technical
glitch, or someone edits the  content of the "HUNGARY" postings.
(censorship :-)  )
Gotthard
+ - Re: Illegal Immigration (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Date sent:  16-NOV-1994 12:01:08
>Re: Illegal Immigration, BREEDT wrote to recommend increasing the minimum
>wage and refusing employment to illegal immigrants, as a way of attracting
>U.S. to the jobs now being taken by illegals.
>
>One major problem--the imposition of minimum wages, in the view of many
>economists, generally results in a *decrease* in the number of jobs, since
>many are not cost-effective at the minimum wage.

Better paid people = more consuming power = larger economy = more jobs
Some economists have been wrong before.

>Thus the appeal of illegal immigrants, who *are* cost effective.  To those
>who argue against this on grounds of general humanity, remember that when the
>"system" works, people move out of low-paying, unpleasant jobs when they
>acquire skills, experience, etc., and their places are taken by *other*
>people.  This may be neither fair nor humane, but no has devised a better
>system than the market for getting the work done *and* benefitting the
>society as a whole.

The "system" however, doesn't work.  That's why the US government for
almost a century now has been intervening.  If the market was left to
decide alone, absent of any humanistic intervention by the government, we
would see corporations breaking workers strikes uses the techniques of the
early twentieth century.  The "system" has never worked perfectly.  Observe
the recurrent depressions of the 19th century, caused by companies
overproducing goods and not paying workers enough to allow them to act as
consumers.  I do agree:  no better system has been developed.  Tinkering by
the government has helped more than hurt.

>So again I would say that illegal immigrants are attracted here by the prospec
t
>of jobs that simply would not exist or would not be performed if there were no
>illegal immigrants in the first place.

What came first:  the chicken or the egg?  Are you saying that available
labor creates jobs?  Cheap labor may attract capital, but I think most of
the cheap illegal immigrant labor of the United States is attracted to the
capital.  If the capital needs cheap labor, it goes to Mexico (thanks to
Nafta).  This is legal, and GOVERNMENT moderated.  Therefore, I would
support US investment in Mexico, not to mention Hungary and other
East-Central nations.  Government moderation prevents abuse of cheap labor.
I do not support companies who invest in child labor facilities in
Bangledash, paying 20 US cents an hour, or agricultural employers in
Central California who pay 30 US cents an hour.

>And American (as well as German, Swiss, Austrian, French, Swedish, etc.)
>societies have evidently decided that those jobs are useful, even necessary,
>and that illegal immigrants are the ones to do them.  And this applies to
>American agriculture, as well--the *bracero* program was all very well, but
>it never provided a sufficient number of agricultural workers to get all the
>work done, hence the wide and continuing reliance on illegal immigrants.
>Raise the minimum wage, round up and deport illegals, and I would venture to
>say that the rest of us would simply have a smaller, and more expensive,
>choice of foodstuffs, as in, say, Hungary, Austria, etc., etc. Are we
>seriously willing to put up with that?

I'm not arguing whether these jobs are of poor quality.  There will always be
jobs that are not appealing by their nature.  If the jobs are available and
they pay well, American citizens will occupy them.  Burger King, for
example, has no problem finding workers, even though they stick to US
citizens and pay at least mininum wage (often more).  I would restate my
intial point:  that the reason there are not enough American (or Austrian
or Hungarian) is that they would have to take far-sub poverty pay.

>Be1la

                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Ted' ma zena ma hlad, tak musim jit."
+ - Re: Separatism or Pluralism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Jeliko writes:

>At times, the building of something better requires the partial dismantling
>of structures. If Quebec in facts want to separate, it should have that
>right, if the Mohawks or Crees want to separate it is their right also. The
>inciting of the Mohawks and Crees to separate by those who are upset about
>the separation of Quebec to get a "revanche" is sour grapes and meddling.


I  agree 100%.  Unfortunately it is not Preston Manning alone, but Mohawk
and Cree politicians as well who are making scary noises. You must have
heard of Oka down there as well as how the Cree feel about James Bay II.
I  wish they had agreed to some sort of "assymetrical federalism" with some
kind of special status for Natives.   How do you think the situation
compares to the Austro Hungarian Empire in 1840 -ies or later at the
compromise,  It seems in retrospect that if all those nationalities had
figured a way of living with each other  in some sort of
Danubian-Carpathian federation (I know it's far fetched) they wouldn't have
to be begging for EU membership now.  (Just trying to do my part here in
bringing the conversation back on topic.)

>While the specifics are given for Canada, this type of thinking is
>prevalent in the Balkan area also.

The more is the shame.


>BTW., scouts honor, I will not suck blood anymore from mosquitos.
>

You mean you used to? ;-D.

Cheers, Tibor
+ - Pataki (the name) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sorry to disappoint people but I'd bet my monthly salary as a linguist that
Pataki refers to a specific place, Sa1rospatak, site of one of the oldest
and best colleges in Hungary. Complex place names such as Boldogko3va1ralja
or Csikszereda will typically simplify in naming persons (Va1ralj(a)i or
Szeredai) and while there is no guarantee that Pataki is from Sa1rospatak,
rather than some other place name ending in -patak, chances are high it is.

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Laszlo Lengyel's interview (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

A very interesting series of interviews have been appearing in *168 ora
,
 *
beginning with the October 25 issue. The interviewer is Akos Mester, the
editor-in-chief of the paper, and the man interviewed is Laszlo Lengyel. You
may recall that Lengyel is the one who called Horn a "fox" in one of his
articles, and who, in spite of it, was asked by the new prime minister to be
one of his advisers. A couple of weeks later, Lengyel resigned from his
position on the advisory board. The meaning of the title, "A pro1ba" (The
trial) is not clear until the third installment, when we find out that
Lengyel calls the current government "a trial government." The first part of
the interview mostly deals with Lengyel's decision to withdraw from the role
of adviser to Gyula Horn. Why did he do it? Did he do it because he realized
that if he accepts the job he is losing his independence as a political
commentator. Lengyel denies that. After all, he says, advisers to Clinton
frequently write in the press. When Mester reminds him that Hungary is not
the United States: Hungary doesn't have the traditions of democracy as in the
United States, Lengyel answers that he would like that Hungary would be like
the United States and he would like to see an end of the camarilla politics
of the Kadar regime. But at the end he admits that he made a mistake by
accepting the post because he "should have known the nature of the
governmental posture of the MSZP-led coalition." But for a little while he
was optimistic that his worries were unfounded.
        In the second installment (november 1) Mester specifically asks Lengyel
about his opinion of the government's activities during the first 100 days.
Lengyel admits his initial confusion: he couldn't figure out what the
definite direction of the government was. He noticed that the media was also
confused. He thinks that this period of confusion ended with Horn's
parliamentary speech in October. He then moves on to the Horn-Bekesi
differences and ends his analysis by claiming that Gyula Horn "accepts what
people tell me about the serious economic troubles but deep down he doesn't
quite believe it" while Bekesi perfectly understands the situation. The
second difference between the two men that while Bekesi wants to reduce the
role of the government, Horn "unfortunately favors the state: the state
should turn to the little man and the little man should turn to the state as
social partners." The third difference is their different attitudes toward
the professional elites. Bekesi wants to cooperate with them; Horn is far
from the serious professional elite es in many ways he is much closer to the
already mentioned "little man." Mester then, for the sake of argument,
mentions that perhaps one cannot be surprised by Horn's more "political"
behavior, after all he is a politician and the head of his party. Lengyel
admits that this is a legitimate comment. But Horn should "admit that there
are problems not because earlier actors on the political stage made a mess of
things--one ought not to find a scapegoat. . . . Surely in the West too, the
new government often criticizes its predecessor but, one cannot blame the
former government for, let's say, a recession. One must not mislead the
citizen by intimating that the state has some kind of miracle drug which will
solve all problems immediately."
        "Gyula Horn should recognize that there is no daily or weekly popularit
y
context in economics. . . . It would be advisable for him to recognize the
stark facts of economics and to realize that his political cleverness, his
finesse--all of which was amply demonstrated during the election
campaign--should be used in accepting Bekesi's economic arguments." However,
the problem is that the differences of opinion between the two men have been
discussed in the open: four or five times it happened that the prime minister
said certain things which had not been cleared with his minister of finance
"who then the next day announced that he was leaving. . . ."
        In the November 8 issue Lengyel talks about the background agreement be
h
 ind
the coalition: the original idea was that Horn will take care of foreign
policy and internal affairs, but Bekesi will have a free hand in economic
matters. The SZDSZ agreed to form a government with the socialists with this
arrangement in mind. If for one reason or other, Bekesi leaves the
government, it is likely that the whole coalition will collapse. Moreover, he
says, the problem within the government does not limit itself to the
differences between Horn and Bekesi, there are many other "little
coalitions." So, says Mester, the "team is really not a team" (ez a csapat
nem csapat). First of all, the members of the team had never worked together,
they don't really know each other, and therefore, they don't understand each
other. According to Lengyel, three types of team could have been put in
place. The first a political team--that is members of the team come from the
same political background and have the same ideas concerning the future. For
example, the picture of the future of Bekesi, Laszlo Pal, Pal Vastagh, or
Gyula Horn is not at all the same. But, says Lengyel, even their ideas
concerning the past are different. The second type could have been a team of
experts, who are not apparatchiks. This is the kind of government the MSZP
promised. That kind of government was the Nemeth government. The third kind
would be what we normally call a civil-service government--these people would
understand each other on the bureaucratic level.
        Mester: "According to you then this cabinet is not a political team, no
t
  a
team of experts and not a team of civil servants. Then, what is it?
        Lengyel: I told Gyula Horn somewhat inpertinently: this is a trial
government. They will try out a few people; like in a soccer team they send
them into field, then they will turn out or not.
        Mester: Do you think that changes will occur?
        Lengyel: Yes.

        This is not the end of the interview. There will be more to follow. Enj
o
 y!
Eva Balogh
+ - Suggested Reading (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Just in case someone missed it, the November 8th, 1994 issue of Financial
World has a cover story on George Soros and the Quantum and other Soros Fund
Management funds. The article deals less with the mystique and philosophy
of Soros and more with the financial statements. The author is cautiously
suggesting that the Emperor might not be wearing any clothes.

In any case, I recommend taking a peek if you can get a copy.

Steve Kovacs
+ - HOSPITALS IN HUNGARY (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Can anyone give me any insight into what hospitals and health care are
like in Hungary?  My Grandmother who lives there died recently and we
(over here in Canada) are concerned about the circumstances
surrounding her death.  What about laws governing death certificates
etc...do "they" have to record the CAUSE of death on the death
certificate?

Any help or information will be appreciated.


Sandra

+ - US News & World Report about Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I'd like to call your attention to the Nov. 21 issue of US News & World
Report that carries a rather upbeat report on Hungary and her neighbors.
The title of the article is: "A reasonable way to repeal history",
subtitle: "Hungary, Romania and Slovakia may provide a model for
avoiding future ethnic nightmares."

The report is mostly about Transylvania, with two photos and an ethnic
map of the area's Hungarian population.  Interestingly enough, the map
shows a contiguous Hungarian presence in Northern Transylvania, from the
Hungarian border to the Sekler inhabited South Eastern Transylvanian
corner.  This contiguousness is generally denied by Romanians.

One of the two photos shows the equestrian statue of King Mathias in
Cluj, the other -- what I take to be -- an open air country market
(va'sa'r) scene somewhere in Transylvania.

The rather optimistic article was written by John Marks in Hungary,
Slovakia and Romania.  Read it!

Joe Pannon
+ - Re: Russians in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

James McShane wrote:

> Recently, there had been a shoot-out (the old fashioned Chicago 1920s style)
> in one of the busiest squares in Budapest (on the Pest side, but I don't
> remember where - not Rakocsy) between the Ukrainians and the Russians that
 left
> a few of them dead. Now, I do not know if these were illegals, but they do
 seem
> to have made the police a bit more paranoid (than usual? if that is possible)
.

I think what you refer to was in the beginning of September when I was
there and it happened on the Buda side, on the road leading to
picturesque Szentendre, North of Budapest.

The shootout was between two Ukranian gangs which cornered the Hungarian
prostitution scene.  I drove through the same road to Szentendre on the
next day, almost exactly the same time the shoot-out happened the day
before.  The brazenness of the action was unusual in Hungary.

Joe Pannon
+ - Re: Suggested Reading (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Just in case someone missed it, the November 8th, 1994 issue of Financial
> World has a cover story on George Soros and the Quantum and other Soros Fund
> Management funds.

Financial World?  I don't think I've seen a paper by that name.

Joe
+ - Re: HOSPITALS IN HUNGARY (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sandra:

> Can anyone give me any insight into what hospitals and health care are
> like in Hungary?  My Grandmother who lives there died recently and we
> (over here in Canada) are concerned about the circumstances
> surrounding her death.  What about laws governing death certificates
> etc...do "they" have to record the CAUSE of death on the death
> certificate?

Forget it.  Malpractice law suits are not something the doctors have to
worry there about.  My father also died in misterious circumstances in
one of the hospitals there, while in a routine, 2-day visit.  His
roommates told my mother (making a routine visit there next morning) about
his excruciating last few hours of his life.  In his pain my dad scraped
the wall with his finger nails so hard that it was still bloody
from it when my mother saw his dead body there covered with white
sheet.  No hospital personal cared about his suffering.  This was in 1978,
but I don't think it's much better now, save few hospitals wich now may have
sister nurses.

I would not like to get into hospital there.

Joe

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