Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Copyright (C) HIX
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: American soldiers in Pecs (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Kamenets-Podolsk (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: List Behaviors (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
4 Toxic Dumping (mind)  55 sor     (cikkei)
5 Fax to President Kovac (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Elteto's Comments (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
7 American GIs in Pecs (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
8 reply to Joe Szalai and Joe Pannon (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: American GIs in Pecs (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
10 Restored faith (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
11 More on Bardossy (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
12 When to play with fire (mind)  85 sor     (cikkei)
13 Hungarian interests (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: More on Bardossy (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Hungarian interests (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: American soldiers in Pecs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


>I was pleased to read this but I was somewhat worried about the
>accommodations in a former "Soviet barracks." We all know about the state of
>those barracks after the Soviets left.

Look at it another way: at least somebody fixes those barracks up at
last.  The Hungarians didn't have the money for it, anyway.
Besides, it doesn't hurt for the Americans to see another side of
Soviet culture. ;-)

>By the way, that will bring the
>American population of Pecs quite high: there are many, many students in the
>English-language section of the medical school.

Hm, that's interesting.  Even if those medical degrees are not admitted
here in the US?  (I mean in the sense that they would have to pass
additional exams here in the state to have it admitted.)

Joe Pannon
+ - Re: Kamenets-Podolsk (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva wrote:

>As for Bardossy's personality. Gyorgy Barcza, Hungary's last ambassador to
>London and a very decent man, had a bad opinion of Bardossy. According to
>Bzrcza, Bardossy "vehemens termeszetu, ideges, mindenben tulzo ember volt,
>keves politikai itelettel es tapasztalattal." (Bardossy was a man of vehement
>temper, nervous disposition and extreme views. He lacked political judgment
>and experience." And, of course, Bardossy was pro-German.

I sure did not intend to mean that Bardossy was some kind of angel, but
there are degrees.  He was certainly a more honorable man than Imredy,
in my opinion.  This also showed during his trial and at the moment of
his execution.  He obviously had a bad judgement and whatever else
Barcza wrote about him.  But war criminal?  I still think it's arguable
at the least.  I don't think that he personally can be blamed for the
Kamenets-Podolsk massacre whose news, BTW, stopped any further, similar
deportations before the German occupation.

Apropos, I've never heard about the variant of the K-P massacre Prof.
Elteto mentioned here.  Could we have some reference to the research
that his opinion about the citizenship of the victims is based upon?

Joe Pannon
+ - Re: List Behaviors (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Antony writes:

> In light of "Janos Kiss" insisting on polluting the HUNGARY list, could
> we please implement Gabor Fencsik's suggestion and give "Janos Kiss" an
> ultimatum: reform or get thrown out of this club.

Objection, Your Honor.  I made no such suggestion.  I don't believe in
ultimatums myself.  Besides, I am not the list owner.  Like everyone else,
I am the guest of the list owner.  Prof. Agnew is the owner and operator
of the list, using the resources of the private university where he teaches.
He has the right to invite or disinvite anyone he wants to, be they spectral
entities, figments, clones, or apparitions.

Prof. Agnew mused about a particular guest who seems to have deposited
fecal matter in the gravy boat, and spoiled the appetite of the rest of
the party.  The guests, if not actually disgruntled, were far from being
gruntled.  Being the gracious host that he is, Prof. Agnew indicated a
certain amount of irritation with rude behavior, and wondered, in vague
terms, about possible countermeasures.  I was merely discussing the
technical aspects of some of these countermeasures, without trying to
second-guess our host.  I think the "Kiss" character has every right to
spout his stuff as long as Prof. Agnew lets him, and not a day longer.

Gabor Fencsik

+ - Toxic Dumping (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I won't comment directly on the latest character assassination attempts by
the farcical Dr Pellionisz and his pathetic army of clones, popping up
everywhere like poisonous mushrooms after an acid rain.  Instead, I'll
quote a paragraph or two from an article written by Hannah Arendt in 1971.
The date of publication makes the passing comment about computer-assisted
lying amazingly prescient, even though Arendt was uninterested in issues of
technology.  The title of the article is "Lying in Politics".  It appeared
in the NY Review of Books shortly after the publication of the Pentagon
Papers, and was re-published in her book "Crises of the Republic".  Here
it goes:

  The historian knows how vulnerable is the whole texture of facts in which
  we spend our daily life; it is always in danger of being perforated by
  single lies or torn to shreds by the organized lying of groups, nations,
  or classes, or denied and distorted, often carefully covered up by reams
  of falsehood or simply allowed to fall into oblivion.  Facts need testimony
  to be remembered and trustworthy witnesses to be established in order to
  find a secure dwelling place in the domain of human affairs.  From this,
  it follows that no factual statement can ever be beyond doubt -- as secure
  and shielded against attack as, for instance, the statement that two and
  two make four.

  It is this fragility that makes deception so very easy up to a point, and
  so tempting.  It never comes into conflict with reason, because things
  could indeed have been as the liar maintains they were.  Lies are often
  much more plausible, more appealing to reason, than reality, since the
  liar has prepared his story for public consumption with a careful eye
  to making it credible, whereas reality has the disconcerting habit of
  confronting us with the unexpected, for which we were not prepared.

  Under normal circumstances the liar is defeated by reality, for which
  there is no substitute: no matter how large the tissue of falsehood that
  an experienced liar has to offer, it will never be large enough, even if
  he enlists the help of computers, to cover the immensity of factuality.
  The liar, who may get away with any number of single falsehoods, will
  find it impossible to get away with lying on principle.  This is one of
  the lessons that could be learned from the totalitarian rulers'
  frightening confidence in the power of lying -- in their ability, for
  instance, to rewrite history again and again to adapt the past to the
  "political line" of the present moment or to eliminate data that did not
  fit their ideology.

  The results of such experiments are terrible enough, but lasting deception
  is not among them.  There always comes a point beyond which lying becomes
  counterproductive.  This point is reached when the audience to which the
  lies are addressed is forced to disregard altogether the distinguishing
  line betwen truth and falsehood; truth that can be relied on disappears
  entirely from public life, and with it the chief stabilizing factor in
  the ever changing affairs of men.

  [End of Arendt quote]

Gabor Fencsik

+ - Fax to President Kovac (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Colleagues,

Now we have received the personal fax number of
President Michal Kovac (011-427-531-7067). So. if because of the Holyday you
did not have a chance yet to ask him NOT TO SIGN the language law, please use
this number.
       We are also asking our political leaders to send similar letters to
Mr. Kovac and are advising the news media of this effort. If you want to help
in this also, please use  the addresses below:

Bill Clinton: 
Newt Gingrich: 
Chairman Dodd: 
Bob Dole (fax: 202-228-1249)
NY Times: 
Washington Post: 
The Independent: letters.independent.co.uk
Canadian TV: 
Christian Science Monitor: 

With best personal regards: Bela Liptak
+ - Re: Elteto's Comments (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Louis Elteto > writes in response to Half a
Century Ago

<Sadly, you are quite wrong. Though the ...

The professor erred. During thee period discussed, April 1941 to March
1942, when Bardossy was prime minister, Hungarian Jews were not
deported, illegal aliens (persons without residency permits or Hungarian
citizenship) were. It seems that Prof. Elteto had the events after the
German invasion of Hungary in 1944 in mind. Bardossy neither had the
responsibility for nor was he the leading participant in those events.

I share the sentiment of Prof. Elteto that for a society to fulfill its
potential it must be inclusive and not exclusive. It is high time to move
beyond calling anybody whose point of view differs from one's own a
fascist, anti-semite, communist or whatever. There is no substitute for
tolerance, even for ideas anathema to one' own, in a civilized society.

+ - American GIs in Pecs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Joe writes:
>>It sure would be an interesting sight to see American GIs in Pecs on my
>>next visit there.  I am sure they would find a friendlier host there
>>than in some other countries they have been stationed in the past.
>I was pleased to read this but I was somewhat worried about the
>accommodations in a former "Soviet barracks." We all know about the state of
>those barracks after the Soviets left. By the way, that will bring the
>American population of Pecs quite high: there are many, many students in the
>English-language section of the medical school.
>Eva Balogh

Your eagerness to see American GIs in Pecs is a bit disappointing.  I'm not
sure why Joe thinks that they will be better received in Hungary than
elsewhere in the world.  I suspect that once the good burgers of Pecs see
how many American GIs are black, old ideas of race and culture will no doubt
surface.  If that happens, Hungary and Hungarians will be the loosers.  As
an Hungarian-Canadian I would be happy if the Americans stayed home.  They
are NOT the worlds police.

Joe Szalai
+ - reply to Joe Szalai and Joe Pannon (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

For Joe Szalai:

Interesting that if racism toward blacks will crop up, you see the
Hungarians as losers in the whole affair. Why? I lived in Pecs, and knew
several African students who survived without the open harassment of
skinheads and other groups. How do you see Hungarian interests losing
with exposure to other races?

for Joe Pannon:
Most of the medical students I knew said that they would have to pass the
same boards that American educated doctors took, so there was not too
large a barrier. One young doctor indicated that it was actually as good
a training if not a little better in Hungary for one large reason. The
lack of liability laws allowed younger doctors to gain hands-on
experience earlier. Whether this is good or bad is up to the individual
I suppose.


Darren Purcell
+ - Re: American GIs in Pecs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> >>It sure would be an interesting sight to see American GIs in Pecs on my
> >>next visit there.  I am sure they would find a friendlier host there
> >>than in some other countries they have been stationed in the past.
> >

Let's hope they are not into the same activities, than
the one upsetting a japanese island at the moment.
+ - Restored faith (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>>Anyway, I thought about '56 again, and I think it started out as a
>>revolution (or uprising, if you will) and it actually won in the sense
>>that the people accepted the new Nagy Imre government.  So much so, that
>>normal life was to resume on Monday, November 5.  When the Russians
>>attacked on the 4th, they were attacking a legit government and the
>>resistance to that attack -- however brief and sparse -- can
>>legitimately be called "szabadsagharc".

>This was the description of the revolution which restored my faith in
>rational discourse!
>Eva (Balogh)

Rational discourse on this subject is yet to be witnessed but Joe's words
certainly restore one's faith in the power of individual reflection. A word
of thanks to Joe.


Name: tiha von ghyczy
Date: 11/24/95
Charlottesville, Va.
+ - More on Bardossy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

It is late and I have very little time, but I would like to say a couple of
words about Bardossy.

First and foremost, here are all the disclaimers. (1) I don't know enough
about Bardossy's activities, politics, views, even his trial, to be able to
give a definitve answer on his guilt or innocence, or anything in between.
(2) I read only a few general, secondary sources on Hungarian foreign policy
of that period, but one couldn't really rely on them to make the final
judgment. (3) I didn't read the minutes of the trial, and I don't know enough
Hungarian law in the first place. I am not even 100% sure that he was
sentenced to death solely on the basis of his declaring war on the Soviet
Union or there were some other war crimes included in the verdict. Therefore,
I certainly cannot take a very decided stance on this issue. However, there
are some general observations.

(1) To declare war on another country is certainly not a capital offense.
However, if I understand the secondary sources correctly, this was certainly
one of the reasons, if not the only reason, for his death sentence. Now, in
this case, it just happened to be a very stupid decision but not a good
enough reason to execute him.

(2) Do we know how involved he was in the decision to expel 15,000
non-Hungarian and/or Hungarian Jews from Hungary and hand them over to the
Germans? Was he personally responsible for this atrocity? Did he agree to the
deportation? In what way was he responsible for the massacres of the
Hungarian army in the occupied territories? I think these questions must be
answered before we can say much about Bardossy's guilt. Somehow I don't think
that any of us knows enough about Bardossy and the circumstances of these
events to arrive at a definitive answer.

And one final observation. It doesn't really matter how I personally detest
Bardossy's pro-German attitude, how much I abhor his extreme rightist
ideology, one must keep in mind that he could be punished only for crimes
committed and not for ideas he held. If he was guilty of crimes against
humanity he certainly deserved to be brought to justice. If, on the other
hand, he himself was not responsible for the expulsions or the massacres, he
certainly received an undeserved death sentence.

Eva Balogh
+ - When to play with fire (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

It is, of course, totally unprofessional for a "historian" to enter a debate
like this: "I didn't read the discussion on Bardossy but I can well imagine
what it must have been like."

As we know now, "debates" based on "imagination", and on hearing voices, can
be not only utterly lunatic and ridiculous but can also make long pent-up
tensions erupt. For there are many readers who actually *did* read years of
"Forum" and other Hungarian lists and were silent wittnesses to methodical
antihungarian defamation and mindless provocations, for much too long.

Before Janos Kiss or yet another of the hitherto "silent majority" of badly
hurt Hungarians would kick in, let me mention for readers (e.g. Americans
who would not read Forum in the Hungarian language) *what* the most heated
point of the "Bardossy-debate" was. No, the most heated debate was not about
the question if this particular Prime Minister deserved capital punishment
for war crimes, real or imagined. No, it was not about the question if he
and/or Hungary did something against Hungarian Jewery for which
he/Hungarian nation could be defamed at will as a person/nation. I was
silent at that
time, and will not pass *any* judgement on any of these issues now, either.

Because the most heated debate was stirred about Bardossy by the infamous
defamation by some archliberal of Forum who took obvious delight in pointing
out that Bardossy defecated into his pants moments before he was hanged.

Fact number one is, of course, that Bardossy was executed by a firing squad.
Thus the ugly lie, obviously fabricated to defame not a Prime Minister of
Hungary, but a human being facing execution, was nothing but the lowest form
of attack on human dignity and decency.

Fact nuber two is, that instead of a person reduced to shambles in terror,
Bardossy faced the firing squad dignified, erect and cool. His voice was
firm when he mouthed his last message and wish: "God, free Hungary of these
filth!" ("Isten, szabaditsd meg Magyarorszagot ezektol a gonosztevoktol!")

This story is not aimed against some totally self-discredited "historian"
as she enters yet another debate she knows nothing about. It is
definitely not a story to rekindle debate on how History will ultimately
judge Bardossy.

This story is a reminder that most readers of "Hungary" are most likely
quite unaware of the filth and malicious antihungarian propaganda that went
on for years by lowly provocators. Beware, therefore, that tension amongst
Hungarians is mounting so high today that any needless provocation can
severly backfire on mindless badmouthers of this small yet proud nation.

Those who "hear voices" and do not believe even my existence, are likely to
ignore my warning. Let me point out, therefore, that this opinion is not
at all mine alone. Readers of "Forum" will recall that an earlier wave
of antihungarian propaganda provoked such defense responses, that
provocators had to flee Forum into a "moderated" list (Szalon, cca
"Saloon"), to survive. This was more than three years ago.

Yet, yesterday (or the day before?) even in moderated "Szalon" the
tension is so high again against liberals who brought Hungary (the
country and the nation) to the brink of socio-economical catastrophy,
that one writer of "Szalon" openly suggests to use "castration knives"
against the (named) chief offenders. We in the USA know that public
opinion ebbed on liberals pretty bad when they were outsted from both
Houses of Congress a while ago. This happens in countries with 300
years of democracy.

In Hungary, however, some pale semblance of democracy has been toyed with
for a mere 5 years. She presently has a "democracy" with someone on top
who was an officer of an army hostile to Hungary, who fought *against*
Freedom Fighters in 56. His coalition partner-party is headed by a son
of a high-ranking AVO (KGB) officer. Finance Minister is a person who
not only subserves foreign (IMF) interests, but has already been *fined*
for financial wrongdoing and has come up with measures that Constitution
Court declared invalid *four times*! The country's debt has shot up
25% in a single year, and standard of living nosedived by 10% at
the very least. Every week, there are close to hundred thousand
demonstrators on Budapest's streets, peacefully so far, with
castration knives left at home for the time being, demanding still in
a democratic manner the immediate step down of the government, and
striking for at the least a stabilization of standards of living.

If some, from a safe distance from Hungary, would like to play with
fire, close to a fuse of a powder keg that is about to explode, all
one can say to such crazies: "go ahead".

But consider whom you hurt.

And if it obvious that you want to hurt Hungarian people, beware that
you will bear the brunt of severe consequences.
+ - Hungarian interests (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


>For Joe Szalai:

>Interesting that if racism toward blacks will crop up, you see the
>Hungarians as losers in the whole affair. Why? I lived in Pecs, and knew
>several African students who survived without the open harassment of
>skinheads and other groups. How do you see Hungarian interests losing
>with exposure to other races?

I do not see Hungarian interests losing with exposure to other races.  I see
just the opposite.  One gains with exposure to other races and cultures.

If American GIs (African American or otherwise) experience racism from a few
Hungarians, then Hungary and Hungarians could be losers.  I say this because
I believe that racism begets racism.  All Hungarians could be injured by the
actions of a few.  Mind you, if Americans start to die in Bosnia, then, that
will become the important issue of the day.

My original posting was mainly to express my disappointment at seeing the ga
ga attitude expressed by Joe Pannon and Eva Balogh at the thought of
American GIs in Pecs.  They can't seem to wait!  I'm not as eager to see the
Americans as the cops of the world.  The Americans could have backed up the
Europeans to bring peace to Bosnia.  But no.  The Americans want all the
glory.  Needless to say, the American will get all the blame if and when
things in the world don't turn out the way they're supposed to.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: More on Bardossy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva's concluding comments about Bardossy:

> If he was guilty of crimes against
>humanity he certainly deserved to be brought to justice. If, on the other
>hand, he himself was not responsible for the expulsions or the massacres, he
>certainly received an undeserved death sentence.

Thanks, Eva; that's all I was getting at and I agree with your

+ - Re: Hungarian interests (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I am getting tired of seeing my namesake misrepresenting what I wrote.
Joe szalai claims:
>My original posting was mainly to express my disappointment at seeing the ga
>ga attitude expressed by Joe Pannon and Eva Balogh at the thought of
>American GIs in Pecs.  They can't seem to wait!

First, I wrote "it will be interesting to see American GIs in Pecs", not
that I couldn't wait for it!  Second, I expressed my assesment of what I
know about Hungarian fascination with Americans when I wrote that they
would sure find a friendlier host there than at some other places.

It's fine with me, if Joe Szalai wants to use this as an occasion to
express his anti-Americanism, but don't do it at my expense, Joe, OK?

Joe Pannon