Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 266
Copyright (C) HIX
1995-03-31
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Mig 29 (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
2 Washington, D.C. - Hungarian Reception (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Southern Slovakia in 1938-19 (mind)  77 sor     (cikkei)
4 The numbers are in / Re: Draft RFD : talk.politics.hung (mind)  57 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Southern Slovakia in 1938-19 (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: The numbers are in / Re: Draft RFD : talk.politics. (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Draft RFD : talk.politics.hungarian, (was Re: 2nd R (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Draft RFD : talk.politics.hungarian, (was Re: 2nd R (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: WANTED: info about media in Hungary!!! (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Southern Slovakia in 1938-19 (mind)  52 sor     (cikkei)
11 how can someone invest in Hungarian stocks (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Trianon (mind)  2 sor     (cikkei)
13 mistake (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Information, please (fwd) (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Summary (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Summary (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
17 An example for Hungary to follow (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Mig 29 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Can everybody read the sci.military who are interested
in the Mig-discussion ? If not, tell me and I xpost
the answers.

Tamas
+ - Washington, D.C. - Hungarian Reception (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The following Hungarian language text, contains an invitation for
Hungarian scientists to a reception at the Embassy of the
Republic of Hungary. Please, forward it to your Hungarian
colleagues.
Sincerely,
Gotthard

> =================================================================

Legyszives, hivjad fel a kornyezetedben dolgozo magyar barataid,
kollegaid figyelmet az alabbi informaciora. Amennyiben kiskoru gyermekeid
felugyeletet nem tudod megoldani, azt is jelezzed az alabbi
telefonszamon. Szukseg eseten a gyermekek reszere a nagykovetsegen, a
rendezveny ideje alatt kulon programot szerveznek.

R.S.V.P. (202)-966-7726  aprilis 7-ig



APRIL  11.  1995 , TUESDAY

* 18:00 PM  04/11/95                    RECEPTION
****************************************
18:00   Nagykoveti bevezeto es tajekoztato a magyar-amerikai
        politikai es gazdasagi kapcsolatokrol, a varhato fontosabb
        esemenyekrol.
        Kerdesek, valaszok
18:30   A magyar-amerikai tudomanyos es technologiai (TeT)
        egyuttmukodes helyzetenek es perspektivainak
        rovid  attekintese.
        Kerdesek, valaszok

19:00   Hozzaszolasok,eszrevetelek, javaslatok -
        kotetlen vitaforum
19:30   Koktel-party


 A Magyar Koztarsasag Nagykovetsege
 2950 Spring of Freedom Street, N.W.
 Washington, D.C.

 R.S.V.P. (202)-966-7726  aprilis 7-ig

> --------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard
email : 
mailing list : 
+ - Re: Southern Slovakia in 1938-19 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In message >, on 27 Mar 1995 16:16:47 GMT,
Mr. Tony Pace > wrote under subject
Re: Southern Slovakia in 1938-19 :

 writes:
>
>>I had a book edited in 1911 or 1913 in the USA where American Slovaks
>>exclaimed "we want Sopron, we want the northern side of the Balaton".
>
>Never been to Sopron have you? Many of the churches in that area were
>built by Slovaks, representatives of mainstream parties elected to
>Parliament from there (still happen to) have Slovak names, however
>the minority representatives still have NOT been allowed into Parliament.
>
>Same for the northeast part of Hungary, been to No1grad lately Roman?
>Dr. Bobrovsky Samu on page. 564 of the No1gra1d city history-book documented
>that the Nograd county authorities, on behalf of the Hungarian *minority*,
>turned to the Parliament in 1893 to eradicate Slovak as a spoken language.
>Been to No1grad lately Roman? Have you read No1gra1d Va1rmegye, page 564?
>
>>Fortunately, history went an another way - imagine the instabilites if
>>roughtly a half of the Slovakia's population was non-Slovak.
>
>Benedict Arnold could not have been any more eloquent.


To try to answer some of the kind questions of Mr. Tony Pace first, yes,
I know Sopron, yes, I was walking in the Nogradi Hegyek, and no, I have
NOT read the page 564.

Then, I would like to remark that the privilege to call me by my first
name is not automatically granted but remains reserved to friends and
other people whom I consider to be of the same rank, or to whom I think
some consideration and esteem are due, which happens not to be the case
for Mr. Tony Pace.

The same applies for the factual answer I don't feel any utility to
develop since the offending text does not seem to react to the precedent
one but to some introspective compel presumably caused by a trauma in the
childhood which cannot be healed. One-sided irrational aethernal lacrimae
raerum cannot be addressed by any logical argumentation.

Further, I have checked the story of Gen. Benedict Arnold of Connecticut,
the 200 year-old story of West Point. I had to ask myself whether I feel
offended by the allusion and had to constate this not to be an issue
because of aforementioned reasons.

Indeed, there are times when one cannot avoid to issue a personal comment
but it's upon everyone to stay within what he established himself as
limits of decency. It's these limits that show what everyone among us is
worth. It's like in science: one does not get a historian because of his
collection of a huge number of nice stories but because of the system and
the method how to work with facts and the scientific scepsis. I doubt
there is a word about epistemology on the page 564.

There is one more property that makes a scholar to be one: it's the
careful listening, even to someone whom he disagrees with, if the
person is presenting logical arguments. Other possible approach, the
one we constate to come back regularly with interventions of certain
contributors, is to constantly have a recourse to the page 564 and
crying about 1000-year oppression instead of thinking. And there are
even less civilized ways to disagree.

Sorry to impose to the readership of the list this painful reading that
should be sent via private mail, but in case of Mr. Tony Pace, experience
shows private mail is not granted to remain private. There is worse: we
still don't know who is hidden behind the mysterious acronyme Applications
Manager at a certain motor making company, known also on this list,  who
got specialized in usernames falsifications, obscene anonymous letters,
false E-mail messages and smear campaigns.

I respectfully request the members of the list to let me know if someone
gets a dirty letter allegedly coming from me in order to examine the
headers. I never use obscene words and not all letters that may look
like coming from my mailbox are authentical.

Roman Kanala
+ - The numbers are in / Re: Draft RFD : talk.politics.hung (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

For those who want to see someting semi-quantitative on how (little) read
s.c.magyar is, I'm including some annotated data in this post.

 First I have meta-announcements to make, though. Notice that I removed
the gatewayed bit.listserv.hungary from "Newsgroups:" and am using
"To: " instead. The reason for this is that our
news-provider NEARNET (and possibly others) is not only not carrying BLH,
but experiencing horrendous delays - up to six days transmitting from
Princeton to Boston - in propagating most articles crossposted with it,
too! Furthermore, barring unforeseen circumstances, I will not be posting
to that mailing list anything more concerning my renaming proposal, with
the exception of the upcoming Call for Votes on it. We've been all over
everything already for weeks, from before the RFD got posted, and some
subscribers expressed their view - which I share - that the Usenet
discussion does not belong there. I *am* going to address at length
Gotthard's proposal in a separate followup (to the groups only, not the
list) to be made in a few days - the idea of which, incedentally, I
support, insofar as it would be addressing the actual creation of a new
group and not just obstructing my proposal.

 Now on to the data! Let's have a look at the 'arbitron' readership
survey from January. (Note that the sampled sites over-represent
well-connected and largish sites, where the density of Hungarians abroad
most likely is concentrated.) On the 453 sites providing reports, a total of
203 readers of s.c.m was found. For comparision, this is surpassed by
readership of such groups as soc.culture.nepal (221) and
soc.culture.sri-lanka (325). Remarkably, both countries have a population of
about 15 million, which is roughly the same as the number of Hungarians
home and abroad taken together. Neither have particularly well-developed
Usenet infrastructure, nor a high incidence of their people living abroad
typically with good chances for getting online - unlike a great number of
Hungarians staying in the 'First World' are. The group alt.culture.hawaii,
which enjoys a mere 48% propagation, and is dedicated to the state of
islands with barely more than a million inhabitants (less than the
Hungarian diaspora) registered 221 readers in the sample.

 Draw your own conclusions. I want to emphasize that my feeling of
s.c.magyar does not hing on the sporadic measurements 'arbitron' can
offer. Logic tells that the irregularity of a non-English named
soc.culture.* must cause some people to miss it out. Over the years
hungarian-faq has been around, many individuals wrote me concerning this
problem, and from time to time one can see posts in vaguely related
groups also manifesting it. And during the RFD debate an additional
number of people also testified to this effect (although at least they
got lucky to have found us by now, obviously ;-(). The latent number of
persons not finding the group and not being heard of could reasonably be
assumed several times as many as of those we do find out about. The
qualitative assessment of the group being located only by happenstance,
making the audience arbitrarily narrowed, is supported by (but not based
on) the relative readership numbers as compared with other soc.culture.*
groups - *all* of which, not coincidentally, are designated by their
ordinary English name.

Zoli , finger  for the charter of s.c.h
# Wallace Sayre said, "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter
# form of politics, because the stakes are so low."  He didn't know
# Usenet: welcome to the next level.           (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)
+ - Re: Southern Slovakia in 1938-19 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 writes:

>The same applies for the factual answer I don't feel any utility to
>develop since the offending text does not seem to react to the precedent

As usual, no factual answers from Kanala, only ad hominem!

>one but to some introspective compel presumably caused by a trauma in the
>childhood which cannot be healed. One-sided irrational aethernal lacrimae
>raerum cannot be addressed by any logical argumentation.

< Lots of obfuscation and ad hominem deleted >

>Indeed, there are times when one cannot avoid to issue a personal comment
>but it's upon everyone to stay within what he established himself as
>limits of decency. It's these limits that show what everyone among us is

< more ad hominem deleted to focus in on the question
  to which Kanala has no answer, only further personal attacks >

>worth. It's like in science: one does not get a historian because of his
>collection of a huge number of nice stories but because of the system and
>the method how to work with facts and the scientific scepsis. I doubt
>there is a word about epistemology on the page 564.

Kanala's scepticism does not constitute proof, noone other than Kanala
mentioned epistemology, yet Kanala attributes that to another as well,
for the proof read the prior posting and page 564 of No1gra1d Va1rmegye.

Ps.
There is precedent in Kanala acknowledging his public accusations.
On Sun, 28 Aug 1994 11:09:26 +0000 (WET-DST) Kanala wrote:

>To: Tony Pace
>CC: George Frajkor
>
>Dear Sir,
>
>I am sorry for the dimensions our thread went into. I feel responsible
>for it because it was certainly possible to do things a different way.
>I was submitted to a tremendous work overload these days and was not
>realizing the trap we both are falling into by such a public accusations
>escalation...
+ - Re: The numbers are in / Re: Draft RFD : talk.politics. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq wrote:


: soc.culture.sri-lanka

soc.culture.ceylon

--Greg
+ - Re: Draft RFD : talk.politics.hungarian, (was Re: 2nd R (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article > Gotthard Saghi-Szabo,
 writes:
>Therefore, I am proposing to separate 'politics' from 'culture' , as it is
done
>in many other cases.
>This would shift the  heated debates from soc.culture.magyar therefore giving
>more room to culture, and,  in the meantime would resolve the artificial and
>controversial problem of not having a group with 'hungarian' in it in the
>'Big Seven'.

There may be moved the HIX-FORUM and HIX-SZALON xposts as well.
Zoli and his followers shall go away to his soc.culture.hungarian group
where he even may live out his desire of moderation. They may take the
HIX-HUNGARY with, if they take away those stupid people as well who
feel sick when they are not posting such threads as:

"I shame of beeing Hungarian"
"Dissapointment"
"Antisemitism in Hungary"

>Therefore I am asking the proponent for a 3rd round of discussion, in wich
>the following topics should be called for to be discussed :

>1, Do you want to rename soc.culture.magyar to soc.culture.hungarian ?

No, definitely not. It is an outrageous idea.. However if such thing will
happens I immidiately will
start a discussion on creating soc.culture.magyar.

>2, Do you want to create a talk.politics.hungarian group ?

I don't mind it. Actually a group called talk.politics.transylvanian
would fit better for that purpose  :) :) :)   but I like t.p.h. as well.

Tamas
+ - Re: Draft RFD : talk.politics.hungarian, (was Re: 2nd R (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Just for the record: I have no "desire of moderation".

Zoli , finger  for the charter of s.c.h
# Wallace Sayre said, "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter
# form of politics, because the stakes are so low."  He didn't know
# Usenet: welcome to the next level.           (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)
+ - Re: WANTED: info about media in Hungary!!! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mar 29,  2:17pm, ginevro marit wrote:
> Subject: WANTED: info about media in Hungary!!!
> I am a student at the Free University of Brussels in Belgium and I am
> working on a paper about media policy in Hungary. I am not familiar with
> this subject so I hope that some of you could help me in some way by
> sending me some Internet information, newsgroup or e-mail adresses about
> Hungary and Eastern Eurpoe and especially about their media policy. It is
> very urgent! Deadline: May 3th.
>     THANK YOU!
>        My e-mail adress is:
>        
>


I wrote a paper on this subject last year. I'll try to scan in my
bibliography this weekend and send it to you.

Heather Olsen

+ - Re: Southern Slovakia in 1938-19 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In >, on Thu, 30 Mar 1995
14:55:00 EST, Mr. Tony Pace > wrote
under subject Re: Southern Slovakia in 1938-19  :

>There is precedent in Kanala acknowledging his public accusations.

As far as I remember, I was not accusing anybody. Mr. Tony Pace simply got
psychically destabilized a little bit more than usual when I said I know who
is the mysterious Applications Manager at Ford Motor Company and that it's not
me. It was after Mr. Tony Pace publicly accused me to be the Applications
Manager because, yes, I speak well French while he only pretended to speak
that language, too.

Readers of this list still remember the carreer of the mysterious
Applications Manager (signed Apponyi) last year and the ideas he spread.
Readers also know my positions.

>On Sun, 28 Aug 1994 11:09:26 +0000 (WET-DST) Kanala wrote:
>
>>To: Tony Pace
>>CC: George Frajkor
>>
>>Dear Sir,

And the quoted message was a piece of private mail I sent to Mr. Tony Pace
to calm the him down. It did not help. Mr. Tony Pace wanted to savour what
he believed to be his victory and continued the thread.

Since we are about to publish pieces of private mail, how about this one
that a mysterious anonymous user sent out, wonder, immediately after I
brought a proof to the Slovak-L list that the psychotic Applications
Manager at Ford Motor Company > does his
opus from the Ford Motor Company Internet domain. The letter has been
received by several of my colleagues at the University on 30 August 1994
from >:

~Roman Kanala es un AIDS patient
~
~  Universite de Geneve
~    Economie Commerciale et Industrielle

There are people who indeed cannot speak French;-)
The above information is of course false and therefore it does not
constitute a delict of diffamation, but a calumny, which happens to
be a crime in most countries.

Being the victim the the act, it's on me to decide whether or not I file
a suit against the poor guy. So far, I said myself, I am too busy with
science to be busy with a psychopat, that, let's recall, we still don't
know the identity at this moment. However, I might change my mind.

Roman Kanala
+ - how can someone invest in Hungarian stocks (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello
How can an American go about purchasing the shares in Hungarian
stocks?
Regards
Neil Schier
+ - Re: Trianon (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh's short treatise on Trianon should be required reading for
everybody
+ - mistake (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Part of an old message inadvertently was sent out.  Please disregard
+ - Re: Information, please (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

If interested I can provide the address of the Hungarian Ministry of
Agriculture to follow up on your question.

However if you are looking for more in depth assistance, you might one to
look at one of the many small Hungarian American KFT.'s
( Limited partnerships) that are working on bringing Amewrican production,
products or investments into Hungary. I am involved with one that has done a
fair amount of research on agricultural products and regulations for a US
comp
+ - Re: Summary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>C. K. Zoltani wrote:
>
>>5. The leadership of the small country, also at the edge of bankruptcy,
>>decides to help out their former comrades of the powerful neighbor. They
>>are fully aware of the obsolescence, poor quality and lack of durability
>>of the equipment offerred as repayment. Having studied at prestigious
>>school of the powerful neighbor, they also know that since 1950, in all
>>wars in which the equipment of the powerful neighbor was used against
>
>I think something is misunderstood here. The MIGs were bought not by the
>Horn government but by the Antall government. Antall and his ministers
>were not comrades of the soviets and they have never studied in the USSR.
>
>Andras Nemeth
>

Andras,

   Csaba also seems to neglect the simple fact that nobody is
willing to sell planes to Hungary, but Russia. But some folks
are  just so  biased  against the  present,  constitutionally
elected, government that they are willing to blame it for all
ills of  the country.  Buying  what is  available is  neither
compromising the country's defense, nor is it sacrificing the
"best" of the country's youth.  Although both  of these sound
very good as propaganda.
   This government may not be the best one Hungary could have
but people should always remember that this is the government
the Hungarians  in Hungary  elected.  I haven't read  on this
list anything from anybody  that would suggest  the slightest
possible solution to  any of the problems.  Calling the gov't
"incompetent", "unprofessional" and some other names will not
help anybody, won't solve any problems.
   One more thing, Andras. Facts only get in  the way of some
propaganda, so why bother with them.
   Have a great day folks,
                           Amos
+ - Re: Summary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Amos Danube wrote:

: Calling the gov't
: "incompetent", "unprofessional" and some other names will not
: help anybody, won't solve any problems.

By golly you're right:  better to pretend the Emperor isn't naked.


--Greg
+ - An example for Hungary to follow (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The Czechs are showing again how to break with the communist past and
start with a clean slate:

COMMUNIST SECRET POLICE AGENTS TO BE NAMED IN RELEASED FILES. The Czech
government on 29 March announced that citizens will be able to learn the
names of former communist secret police agents when a new law enabling
them to inspect files comes into effect next year, Czech media report.
Files of the StB security service are classified according to code names
given to agents and collaborators, but the cabinet decided that real
names will be disclosed. But Prime Minister Vaclav Klaus said the names
of some informants will be blacked out to distinguish between who was "a
chattering neighbor and who was an agent who worked purposely,
knowingly, and to order for the StB." A list of thousands of purported
StB agents, with real and code names, was published several years ago by
a Czechoslovak newspaper. The official files will be open for inspection
for five years from 1 January 1996. -- Steve Kettle, OMRI, Inc.
--------------

Why is it only them from the former East Bloc who can follow through
like that?

Joe Pannon

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