E.S. Balogh wrote:
>
>         Today's Gypsies are, at least in my eyes, hardly distinguishable
> from the rest of society, but I have been living in a country where one can
> find all shades of color. They no longer dress differently, and I at least
> couldn't pick them out of a crowd.

I am positively sure you could if you would see them, even if you
were just coming from, say Newark. I am not talking about those
integrated in the society, but maybe even than.
MKH

>A Hungary listan egy kukkot se lattam a bruno levelerol.


OK.  A magyar listan targyaltuk ki.  Nem mindegy?  Foleg, hogy
kitargyaltuk.  Azt hiszem, a magyarul tudok altalaban mindket listara
bekukkantanak.

Agnes

>Toronto, ON: Budapest Park.
>   1966, artist Victor To:lgyesi,  Brass plaque added in 1995.
>   A 3.5 meter tall modern monument on the shores of Lake Ontario in a

Barna, can you please tell me where this is?  We used to walk on the
board walk, and around Harbourfront - it is not there.  It is not in
Ontario place either.  Where on the lakeshore is it?  Thanks.
Agnes

aheringer wrote:
>
> >A Hungary listan egy kukkot se lattam a bruno levelerol.
>
> OK.  A magyar listan targyaltuk ki.  Nem mindegy?  Foleg, hogy
> kitargyaltuk.

Mikor volt az?

Kedves Agnes!
A Bruno levelerol tobbek hozzaszolasat olvastam a s.c.m-en de a levelet magat
 nem lattam. Igy tem tudok hozzaszolni.

Udvozlettel
Denes



----------
From:  aheringer[SMTP:]
Sent:  Sunday, 6 April 1997 7:56
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: a bruno 56-os levele

>A Hungary listan egy kukkot se lattam a bruno levelerol.


OK.  A magyar listan targyaltuk ki.  Nem mindegy?  Foleg, hogy
kitargyaltuk.  Azt hiszem, a magyarul tudok altalaban mindket listara
bekukkantanak.

Agnes

friend or foe, Koreh Ferenc passed away on April 1st in Engelwood NJ after a
loong physical and mental suffering...

we are one less... :(

janos



--

Re:  [United States]

>
>        There is certainly great prejudice against Gypsies and not only in
>Hungary but in the whole region............................

Eva,

Thanks for sharing your experiences with the list. Most prejudice is caused
by fear and superstition, passed on or otherwise. Luckily I have only had
positive experiences with Gypsies, or Roma as they prefer to be called.

In 1956 as we (my parents and myself) were arrested and in jail in Sopron,
after trying to cross the border hidden in a haywagon, we were lead by
Russian soldiers to the train station supposedly to take the train back to
Budapest or worse. The Roma who were in our jail cell were with us also and
once we were on the train they told us to follow them because they knew the
way to escape from the train station. With their help and direction we
finally made our way to Austria and the US.

When I was little in the early 1950's, a Roma woman come by our house in the
outer districts of Budapest regularly to beg for crusts of dry bread. We
obliged her with the old bread and sometimes with apple peels, etc. With
this she said she could help feed her family.

When I was in Transylvania in the early 1990's I was in a village called
Karacsonyfalva where I saw a traditionally dressed Roma family outside their
very colorful house. I asked them if I could take their photograph, they
agreed and then invited me into their modest house. Later after developing
the photos I sent them copies, never thinking that they would ever get them.
A few months later I received a lovely letter thanking me for the photos. I
still cherish it. I also met some Roma Holocaust survivors in Nagykanizsa,
they also invited me in and offered me food and cakes which I couldn't refuse.

I came back from Budapest recently, This time I didn't see many Roma
beggers, maybe three during the month I was there. There were none camping
out in the train stations either. I did wonder where they were though. Did
they ship them away or is the government actually helping them? I wonder.

There are several Roma families. The ones I met in Transylvania were Gabor
Ciganyok and they looked down on the beggers as do the horse traders,
tinkers, gold traders and others. I guess they too have their own prejudice!
I sugggest reading the book: Bury Me Standing (The Gypsies and their
Journey) by Isabel Fonseca. Knopf,1995.

Anna Mogyorosy

On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, AND Books wrote:

> friend or foe, Koreh Ferenc passed away on April 1st in Engelwood NJ after a
> loong physical and mental suffering...
>
Janos, please give us a short description of the life of Ferenc Koreh.

Barna Bozoki

On Sat, 5 Apr 1997, aheringer wrote:

> >Toronto, ON: Budapest Park.
> >   1966, artist Victor To:lgyesi,  Brass plaque added in 1995.
> >   A 3.5 meter tall modern monument on the shores of Lake Ontario in a
>
> Barna, can you please tell me where this is?  We used to walk on the
> board walk, and around Harbourfront - it is not there.  It is not in
> Ontario place either.  Where on the lakeshore is it?  Thanks.

Between the Sunnyside swimming pool and the Bouleward Club, at the
South end of Parkside Drive. (near the High Park)

Barna Bozoki

As promised, I've done a little searching on the topic of the role Hungarians
played in the settlement of the Old West. Here's one of the stories I came up
with, that of Janos Xantus:

Janos Xantus served in the revolutionary army during 1848. Following the
collapse of the Kossuth regime, he was impressed into service in the Imperial
army, from which he deserted in 1850. Xantus
made his way to Britain, then almost immediately to the United States. He
arrived in the U.S. with little more than $7 in his pocket and worked as a
ditch digger. He soon got a better job working as
a surveyor for the transcontinental railroad in the Midwest. When the company
abandoned its planned route because of competition from two other railroads,
Xantus made his way to New Orleans. Unable
to find work there, he headed back to St. Louis. The steamboat in which he was
travelling suffered a boiler explosion which sank the ship, leaving Xantus
stranded alone in the swampy wilderness.
Eventually rescued, he made his way back to New Orleans, where this time he was
able to secure an appointment as Professor of Latin, Greek and Spanish at the
University of New Orleans. Xantus
survived the yellow fever epidemic of 1853, being himself struck by the
disease. He resigned his post at the university to join the U.S. Survey
Expedition in its exploration of the Kansas Territory.
Xantus and his team of 29 men surveyed much of the Arkansas River basin, much
of it home to hostile Comanche and Kiowa tribesmen. Xantus collected a large
sample of minerals, fauna and flora,
including three hundred different snakes which were shipped in 26 parcels to
the Smithsonian Institution.

By 1857, Xantus's work as a naturalist had won him recognition in scientific
circles and an audience with President Buchanan, who questioned him about his
explorations of the West and his service to
Kossuth. Xantus was named a member of the Academy of Natural Sciences, the
American Philosophical Society of Philadelphia and the Boston Atheneum. The
U.S. Department of Interior appointed Xantus to
its United States Coast Survey in California. Xantus made the trip from the
East Coast via the Panamanian isthmus. After spending some time in San
Francisco, he headed into the vast inland desert of
southern California, surveying the Mojave Desert, the areas of the San
Bernardino Valley and the Sierra Nevada Mountains and the Camino del Diablo.
Once again, Xantus carefully collected geological,
flora and fauna specimens during his expeditions. The work produced one of his
two books, "Journey in the Southern Parts of California." Following the
completion of his work in southern California,
he visited Hungary briefly, then returned to take up an appointment as U.S.
consul in Manzanillo, Mexico. Unhappy there, Xantus requested permission to
join a government-sponsored scientific
expedition in the Far East.

By then, however, Xantus had begun to exhibit signs of psychological
instability. He became fixated on the idea that he could make all men wealthy
because he had the power to turn solid rock into
gold. He talked about his plans to distribute gold to all the poor of the
earth. In his last months, he made his way back to Pest where he died in
obscurity.

Sources:
1)Americans from Hungary, by Emil Lengyel; Lippincott: Philadelphia and New
York, 1948.
2) The Hungarians in America, 1583-1974, a Chronology and Fact Book, edited by
Joseph Szeplaki; Oceana: Dobbs Ferry, N.Y.; 1975.

Sam Stowe

"As Bob is my witless..."
-- Angelica Pickles, "Rugrats"

At 04:19 PM 4/6/97 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote about Janos Xantus. I found it very
interesting because when I grew up in Kolozsvar/Cluj there was a well known
botanist named Janos Xantusz. He wrote many books and articles in the press
about the local flora. Also, he was the only entry in the local phone book
at the letter X.

Gabor D. Farkas

In article >, 
writes:

>As promised, I've done a little searching on the topic of the role Hungarians
>played in the settlement of the Old West.

Sam,

How wonderful of you!  (:-)))))
There is so much out there we know nothing about . . .

Thank you!
Marina

In article >, Anna Mogyorosy
> writes:

>I sugggest reading the book: Bury Me Standing (The Gypsies and their
>Journey) by Isabel Fonseca. Knopf,1995.

Hello All,

Recently I read Bury Me Standing and I recommend it whole heartedly.
It is a finely written book, it helped me learn more about the Roma's
history and of their struggles - which after reading the book - I could feel
in my bones.

Marina

At 03:46 PM 4/6/97 -0400, Gabor Farkas wrote:
>At 04:19 PM 4/6/97 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote about Janos Xantus. I found it very
>interesting because when I grew up in Kolozsvar/Cluj there was a well known
>botanist named Janos Xantusz. He wrote many books and articles in the press
>about the local flora. Also, he was the only entry in the local phone book
>at the letter X.

        I have the feeling that his would have been the only name starting
with an X in any telephone book, whether from Romania, Slovakia, Serbia, or
Hungary. There was only one Xantus family in Hungary and in the biographical
dictionary there is only one entry with X, Janos Xantus. Four with Y: three
Ybls, all belonging to the same family and a naturalized Englishman, Arthur
Yolland, professor of English at the University of Budapest from 1896.
Interestingly, Yolland became such a Hungarian patriot that he died in
Budapest on November 12, 1956! Interesting, isn't it! Eva

In "A vad nyugat", Sam Stowe mentions that Janos Xantus arrived in the
United States in the mid 1850's.  That's quite impressive.

When did the first Hungarians come to Canada or the United States?  And
what about Australia?  Does anyone know the first recorded dates that
Hungarians arrived in these new countries?

Joe Szalai

On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, Sam Stowe wrote this about Janos Xantus:

>In his last months, he made his way back to Pest where he died in
>obscurity.

This is not true, unless we consider 23 years as his "last months", and
having buried in the Kerepesi cemetery next to Ferenc Deak is "obscurity".
Below, I copied a description of Xantus's last 23 years in Hungary from a
book by Henry Miller Madden, entitled "Xantus Hungarian Naturalist in the
Pioneer West", Palo Alto, Books of the West, 1949. I did not copy the
footnote references.

Barna Bozoki

----- a quote from the book --

"In 1871 he returned to Hungary, having expended thirty-eight thousand
florins on the collections he had amassed. He accepted appointment, on March
1872, as keeper of the ethnographical section of the National Museum,
albeit with complaints about the niggardliness oi the salary of fourteen
hundred florins; in 1873 he was advanced to lose director of the
section.[8]

   Xantus married, in 1873, the actress Gabriella Doleschall, the
daughter of a physician residing in Miskolc. By her he had one son, Gabor,
born  in 1874, who became a teacher in the Catholic gymnasium in Miskolc.
The marriage was unhappy, and was dissolved after Xantus left the
Catholic Church to embrace Unitarianism. He took as his second wife Ilona
Steden. He remained as an official at the National Museum, although he
grieved at the neglect of his ethnographical collection, which remained
uncatalogued and confined to a corridor of the building. For twelve years
he directed the biological library of the museum, in addition to carrying
on his duties in the ethnographical section. Before learned societies
he delivered occasional lectures, and he wrote a few articles for the
scientific press.[9]

   Infrequent letters provided Xantus a few bridges back to his American
career. In 1874, ten years after he had parted from Spencer Baird, he wrote
to his old friend to thank him for some publications off the Smithsonian
Institution, to offer the exchange of ethnological specimens, and to
express his weariness of Europe and preference for `a life in the vast free
nature' of America.[10]

In the following year he related his pleasure at knowing that Dr. Hammond
was on the road to vindication.[11] Another letter, written in July 1875,
appears to be the last of the series which had been so conscientiously and
fruitfully carried on between Baird in Washington and his wide-ranging
collector. A letter to the Academy of Natural Sciences of Philadelphia,
dated 24 February 1883, requesting some copies of its Proceedings, harked
back a quarter of a century to activity which must, to the petty
officeholder, have seemed far more important. 'I hope the Academy also
recollects my labors in field, with which I supported for many years her
collections, and the labors of her old members as f.i. Leidy, Hallowell,
I. Lea, Cassin, Leconte, Lawrence etc, to whom I furnished so many
novelties for description and investigation.'[12]

  Xantus was visited by the enterprising 'lady correspondent' of the San
Francisco Daily Alta California, Olive Harper, in 1873. She described him
as 'one of the most remarkable men of Hungary,' and favored her readers
with a rather garbled account of his attainments. In one detail she hit
upon a revelation of his method of collection in Asia which may stand as
representative of the provenance of some of his American specimens. `He had
a particularly fine little Hindoo god, and I asked him how he had managed
to get that. "Oh!" he said, "nothing easier; I hired a man to Steal
it."[13]

  In the middle eighteen-eighties Xantus lost his energy and courage, and
declined mentally. He was kept in a private asylum oblivious of the
activities of the capital. To recuperate from an attack of pneumonia he was
taken by his wife in April 1894 to Volosca on the Adriatic, whence he
returned to his home in the Damjanich Utca in Budapest in July. His
condition became worse, and on 13 December 1894 he died at his home. He was
buried in a plot provided by the municipality of Budapest as a mark of
honor in the Kerepesi Cemetery, opposite the mausoleum of Ferenc Deak.[14]"

------ end of quote  ---

On Sun, 6 Apr 1997, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> When did the first Hungarians come to Canada or the United States?  And
> what about Australia?  Does anyone know the first recorded dates that
> Hungarians arrived in these new countries?
>
To answer Joe's question here is a quote from an article "Hungarians in
Ontario" written by Susan M. Papp (Better known as Mrs Aykler in Toronto).
It was published in a special double issue of Polypony in 1979-80. Polypony
is a publication of the Multicultural History Society of Ontario.

Barna Bozoki

  "One of the first Hungarians to travel in North America was Stephen
Parmenius of Buda, chief chronicler and historian for the expedition of Sir
Humphrey Gilbert. Parmenius landed on the shores of Newfoundland in 1583.
The young Hungarian humanist then wrote one of the earliest and most
detailed accounts of the land that would become Canada."

>Megertem hogy Te ugy erzed hogy a tema ki van targyalva.
>Viszont remelem hogy Te is megerted hogy sok  tizezrek
>haltak meg, lettek elhurcolva, kitelepitve a kommunizmus alatt.
>Nehez lenne elvarni a tuleloktol hogy ne beszeljenek
>a bunosokrol es a rendszerrol ami azt okozta. Nem?
>
>       Udv.
>
>           Mark

Ebben teljesen egyetertek.  Bruno abban az idoben gyerek volt, tehat
minden ertesulese masodkezbol valo - szamomra teljesen erthetetlen
ertesulesbol.  Mint annak idejen irtam, a Marosan emlekiratai voltak
ebben a hangnemben - nem is birtam a konyvet vegigolvasni, kivagtam a
szemetbe.  Velemenyem szerint azonban, ha mindenfele gorombasagot vagunk
a pasas fejehez, azzal nem fogjuk meggyozni arrol, hogy hulyesegeket
beszel.
Agnes

In article >,
 says...
>
>On Sat, 5 Apr 1997, aheringer wrote:
>
>> >Toronto, ON: Budapest Park.
>> >   1966, artist Victor To:lgyesi,  Brass plaque added in 1995.
>> >   A 3.5 meter tall modern monument on the shores of Lake Ontario in
a
>>
>> Barna, can you please tell me where this is?  We used to walk on the
>> board walk, and around Harbourfront - it is not there.  It is not in
>> Ontario place either.  Where on the lakeshore is it?  Thanks.
>
>Between the Sunnyside swimming pool and the Bouleward Club, at the
>South end of Parkside Drive. (near the High Park)
>
>Barna Bozoki

Thanks.  Agnes

From the Press Police section of the Romanian satirical weekly Academia
Catavencu:

Publication incriminated: the daily Adevarul (The Truth)  of Tuesday, March 25

The article says: "To be able to read the bilingual signs, Romanians in over
1300 towns and villages will have to learn Hungarian".

The crime: The extreme pro-Hungarianism of the editors of this daily is
leading to an unprecedented ridicule of  the Romanians, sustaining that they
will have to learn Hungarian, because they cannot read the Romanian part of
the signs.

Penalty: the authors are invited for education in a re-education school of
bilingualism, where they will learn to decipher inscriptions like str.
Scolii/Iskola utca and other inscriptions like Chebab/Kebab, Fast Food, Hai
s-o facem lata/Let's make things better and last but not least str.
Ceausescu utca and Pravda/Adevarul.

Translated by

Gabor D. Farkas