Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 995
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-05-12
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: I'm Back!! (was Re: Mormons) (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Airraids was NYTimes on NATO (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
3 HL-Action: letter to AL GORE (mind)  97 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: church growth in Hungary (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: church growth in Hungary (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: church growth in Hungary (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: I'm Back!! (was Re: Mormons) (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
8 Conditions at Taszar (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: church growth in Hungary (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: HAL: Book of old Hungarian Empire (fwd) (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: I'm Back!! (was Re: Mormons) (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: church growth in Hungary (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
13 I'm Back!! (was Re: Mormons) (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: church growth in Hungary (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: I'm Back!! (was Re: Mormons) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I think religion is very important,
>yet I have never felt convinced enough about the truth of any one faith
to
>commit myself to join a denomination.
>
That reminds me of the little Hungarian summer camp my girls spent their
summers for many years.  The owner was a retired calvinist (reformatus)
school teacher.  Every Sunday he packed up all the kids and they went to
church at the nearby village.  I asked him, what kind of church he took
the children to (since this was in catholic Quebec).  He said, to the
United Church.  He explained it was called United, so everybody could go
there and worship.

My personal belief is that organized religion is sort of a crutch.
However, I agree with Janos Zsargo in that you more you study nature the
less you know about it.  And it doesn't matter how you call the Master of
the Universe or Mother Nature or The Force - it is there to keep order in
the unvierse.

Agnes
+ - Re: Airraids was NYTimes on NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sam Stowe writes:
>Jeliko, is there anything printed in English that details the American
>bombings of Hungary during World War II? I have an elderly friend who was
>a waist-gunner in a B-17 and flew several combat missions in eastern
>Europe. If I can show him specific dates, his memory is good enough that
>he can remember the details of the missions his crew participated in.

I have some 900 references on the subject. I am extracting some which may be
of interest to your friend.

General books on the subject:

 Carter, Kit C. _Mueller Robert: "The Army Air Force in World War II. Combat
Chronology 1941-1945" published by Albert F. Simpson Historical Research
Center Air University and Office of Air Force Headquarters USAF, Wash DC 1973.

 Rust, Kenn C " The Fifteenth Air Force Story in World War II, Historical
Aviation Album, temple City CA 1976

Specifics (hundreds) by mission dates for various groups:

There are numerous detail reports from the A F Simpson Historical Research
Center, such as 304, Bomb Wing General Mission Summary 3 Apr 1944., Bomb
Strike Asessment 304. Wing
Report., Mission Summary 454., 455., 456., 459. Bomb. Groups., Fighter
Groups Narrative Mission Report 3 Apr 1944., Intelligence Annex to
Operations Orders for 3 Apr 1944, dated 2 Apr 1944 23:00., etc., He would
have to contact their library for more detailed listings to specific
missions, there are reports for each individual mission by dates and bomber
and fighter wings.

Blake Steve "Ambush over Hungary, Fighter Pilots in Aerial Combat., Blake
Publishing, Dolorosa CA Fall 1984 Number 14.

Regards,Jeliko
+ - HL-Action: letter to AL GORE (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   normal

Background:
  Hungary's position in the Danube lawsuit at the International Court
of Justice in The Hague is very promising. However, even if the court
rules in favour for the environment it is possible that the Slovak
government does not accept the verdict.
  It is important that influential politicians of USA support our
position, since in this case Slovakia probably does not dare to reject
the decision of the court.

What to do:
  Please ask vice president Al Gore to make a statement in favour for
the environment of Szigetkoz. Feel free to use the attached NEW form
letter. Al Gore  will only take notice if he receives thousands of
letters.
      SEND SEVERAL LETTERS A DAY!!! PLEASE DO NOT ONLY SEND
      THEM BY E-MAIL!  Send them even by fax or "priority
      mail".  Below are the fax number, and the priority mail
      addresses you should use.
      In all cases, put the names of both the Vice President
      and one or another of his key aides on the top of the
      fax, or on the envelope address.
key aides:
Executive Assistant to the Vice President: Heather Marabeti
Deputy Chief of Staff:                        David Strauss
Director of Political Affairs:              Karen Elizabeth Skelton

address of key aides as well as of Al Gore:
Room 276, Old Executive Office Building
Washington, DC  20501
fax number: 202-456-7044

e-mail address of Al Gore:


*************************************************************

<date>

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
The White House
Washington, D.C. 20001
(e-mail: )


RE:  First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague


Dear Mr. Vice President,

On the 21st of August, 1993, you wrote to professor Bela Liptak about
your concern for the Danube ecosystem. Today, humankind is approaching
an important precedent: By the end of 1997 the International Court of
Justice will rule on the first international environmental lawsuit in
The Hague.

By this fall the ICJ will decide on this case involving the Danube and
the destruction of its ancient wetland region: the Szigetkoz. This
name, loosely translated, means: "The region of a thousand islands,"
yet today there are no islands left there because the water is gone.
Still, the implications of this case go beyond the future of just one
river or just the 400 endangered species of the only inland-sea delta
of Europe.

This lawsuit will set a precedent for the whole planet and will
answer a much more basic question:  Do national governments have the
right to destroy  the natural treasures of this planet, or does
humankind as a whole have the right to protect them?

Mr. Vice President, in 1995 nine international NGOs have submitted a
memorial to ICJ, which the Court accepted. A Compromise Plan was also
submitted to the Court, which would guarantee the restoration of the
ancient Szigetkoz wetlands, together with fulfilling the water-supply,
shipping, and energy needs of the region. For details of this plan,
information is available at the Web site:
http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm or from prof. Liptak.

Dear Mr. Gore. There is little question that in October the ICJ
will order Slovakia to return the Danube into its natural riverbed and
will also order the restoration of the Szigetkoz wetlands. But the ICJ
has no powers to enforce its rulings. It will, therefore, be up to the
international community to force the parties to obey the ruling. Since
this is the first international environmental lawsuit before the ICJ,
the outcome will establish an important precedent. All governments
must understand that there is a price to be paid for being admitted
into the European Community or into NATO. That price must include
respect for international law. A statement by you would guarantee that
the parties understand this. Please make that statement.

Respectfully yours,

<Your name, title and address>
+ - Re: church growth in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:32 AM 5/12/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:

>Janos Zsargo wrote:

<snip>
>Actually I had several classmate who were deeply
>> religious. Also my humble experience was the more you know about
>> this stuff the less confident and more cautious you become in the
>> 'god or no God' issue.
>>
>INDEED. And not only on that issue...However, this doesn4t make the
>exchange of opinions less interesting. It only makes you a bit more
>respecting them. And THIS is beautiful.

You're both believers.  Your comments on religion are therefore biased.
The fact that neither of you are religious fanatics doesn't diminish your
bias.  Mixing it up with what is beautiful, or what is respectful, is pure
obfuscation.  It's mysticism at work.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: church growth in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

So what point deems a god necessary? And which one?
Perhaps we should take this to private discussion,
though it is a universal topic...


>
> E.Durant wrote:
>
> >approximation to reality.  There are scientists who are capable
> >doing this in their field of research, but not in their ideological
> >beliefs, which I found - dishonest - even if it is in most cases
> >unintentional.
>
> Congratulation Eva, this is a very 'meresz' (brave) statement. If
> I were you I would think about an other possibility, i.e maybe
> they know something. What makes you so sure about your 'beliefs'
> and 'theories'? How much you know about the evolution theory and
> the Geological History of Earth. I myself had several course in
> Geology and one in Paleontology (oslenytan), and even had a
> 'szigorlat' in Geology ( a poor one though). I have to tell you
> however that although I think the evolution theory is a right
> approach to study the life on the Earth I was not convinced that
> there is no God. Actually I had several classmate who were deeply
> religious. Also my humble experience was the more you know about
> this stuff the less confident and more cautious you become in the
> 'god or no God' issue.
>
> J.Zs
>

+ - Re: church growth in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> > >approximation to reality.  There are scientists who are capable
> > >doing this in their field of research, but not in their ideological
> > >beliefs, which I found - dishonest - even if it is in most cases
> > >unintentional.
> >
> > Congratulation Eva, this is a very 'meresz' (brave)
> >statement.
>
> Well, that4s her faith...whether she likes it or not...
>

Faith is "blind" by definition. The above statement describes
a real inconsistancy, experienced by us all, it is a solid basis
for my statement. Show me evidence, and I change my
views. That is not what you call faith. Kikerem magamnak...!


>>. I have to tell you
> > however that although I think the evolution theory is a right
> > approach to study the life on the Earth I was not convinced that
> > there is no God.
>
> Coupling to utterly independent topica with an OR is one of the most
> common, most trivial - and unfortunately, one of the most dangerous -
> logical errors, errors of thinking.
>

Considering, that a lot of judo-christian religion is based on
the "words of god" - I can see a link in being somewhat skeptical
about said holy books, when they describe a few thousand years
old flat Earth etc, etc. They also describe some miracles etc etc.
Interesting, fascinating legends on par as evidence with ufo abduction stories.
Why am I allowed to smile about the later, but not the other?




+ - Re: I'm Back!! (was Re: Mormons) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:43 PM 5/12/97 +0200, Milos Hoffmann wrote:

>Having "enjoyed"
>religious education, you may ( I dare say, probably ) happily grow to
>a tolerant liberal. Else, you probably end up in bare, often aggressive,
>rejection. My humble statistics point in that direction...I do admit,
>you may end up as a bigot, as well...independently of the denomination,
>even as a convinced atheist.

I am a living example contesting your "humble statistics". My parents
brought me up without any religion whatsoever and so did my wife and myself
with our son. This does not make any of us an aggressive rejectionist or a
bigoted atheist. Maybe a little envious though:-)).

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Conditions at Taszar (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Colleagues,

Recently I received the following request from a USA Air Force officer in
Taszar:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Kedves Bela!

Mar egy honapja itt vagyok Taszaron az Operation Joint Guard szogesdrottal
korulvett tamaszpontjan, bezarva mint egy internalt sajat szulo hazamban.
Valami bornirt Army tabornok ugy dontott, hogy a magyar nep veszelyes rank
nezve es Force Protection nev alatt bezarnak minket.
Embertelen es teljesen folosleges ez az intezkedes, hiszen a magyar nep nem
csak baratsagos, hanem szeretne is ismerkedni az amerikai katonakkal.
Huszoneves fiatal fiuk es lanyok elnek honapok ota igy, amig a tabornok
elvezi a kenyelmet nemetorszagi lakosztalyaban.
Edesanyam 15 merfoldre el Taszartol, 83 evesen egyedul. Ugy kell kiszoknom,
mint egy rossz rabnak, hogyha latni akarom.
 ....
Bela, itt kellene a Hungarian Lobby-nak felemelni a hangjat

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
In response to the letter, I received some advice on how we might proceed,
which I would like to also share with you:
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX



     If you would like to gather some facts surrounding the U.S. military
leadership's policy concerning the Taszar base, I suggest you get in touch
with the following two individuals:

1.  Colonel Arpad Szurgyi, U.S. Military Attache at the American Embassy in
Budapest.  The telephone number is 36-1-267-4400.  I am sure COL Szurgyi has
had to handle this issue many times since the U.S. military presence in
Hungary.  I have never discussed it with him; my dealings with him and the
Science/Environmental Attache have been on environmental matters only.

2.  Congressman Tom Lantos.  I am almost sure he has been approached in the
past by his constituents on this issue, and his staff would be more than
happy to chat with you.  The telephone number is (202) 225-3531.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
 If you have any other ideas on how to help, please post it.

Best regards: Bela Liptak
+ - Re: church growth in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
> E.Durant wrote:
>
> >approximation to reality.  There are scientists who are capable
> >doing this in their field of research, but not in their ideological
> >beliefs, which I found - dishonest - even if it is in most cases
> >unintentional.
>
> Congratulation Eva, this is a very 'meresz' (brave)
>statement.

Well, that4s her faith...whether she likes it or not...

If
> I were you I would think about an other possibility, i.e maybe
> they know something. What makes you so sure about your 'beliefs'
> and 'theories'? How much you know about the evolution theory and
> the Geological History of Earth. I myself had several course in
> Geology and one in Paleontology (oslenytan), and even had a
> 'szigorlat' in Geology ( a poor one though). I have to tell you
> however that although I think the evolution theory is a right
> approach to study the life on the Earth I was not convinced that
> there is no God.

Coupling to utterly independent topica with an OR is one of the most
common, most trivial - and unfortunately, one of the most dangerous -
logical errors, errors of thinking.

Actually I had several classmate who were deeply
> religious. Also my humble experience was the more you know about
> this stuff the less confident and more cautious you become in the
> 'god or no God' issue.
>
INDEED. And not only on that issue...However, this doesn4t make the
exchange of opinions less interesting. It only makes you a bit more
respecting them. And THIS is beautiful.

MKH
+ - Re: HAL: Book of old Hungarian Empire (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thanks, but : see below


Peter A. Soltesz wrote:
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 17:47:30 -0700
> From: 
> Subject: Book of old Hungarian Empire

> You might want to visit the Library of Congress Site at the address
> below.
>
>
 gopher://marvel.loc.gov/00/research/reading.rooms/european/bibs.guides/guides/
0
 8
>  hungar.txt

When clicking, the answer is "......does not exist"

Regards
MKH
+ - Re: I'm Back!! (was Re: Mormons) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Johanne L. Tournier wrote:
>
> Hi, Agnes et al!
>
> At 10:28 PM 5/11/97 GMT, you wrote:

> BTW, I've been enjoying some of your comments and Eva Balogh's as well. It
> seems to me your situation is one of honest perplexity about what would
> have been best for your kids. Maybe the problem is aggravated because of
> the distinctiveness of the Jewish culture from Christian

Oooops? "Christian culture" as culivated by the church(es) over
2000 years ROOTS in Jewish culture, whether they (I mean both sides)
like it or not!

- which make it
> more difficult to find a middle ground? Anyway, I experienced the same sort
> of thing from the kid's end - father, working class and Catholic, mother,
> middle class and Methodist, and neither of them attended church - so I got
> sent to the Presbyterian, because it was the closest to my home
> geographically and because they had a lot of activities for children. But I
> think it would have been more valuable had I been able to share the
> experience with at least one of my parents. As it was, I stayed long enough
> to be confirmed and never went back. I think religion is very important,
> yet I have never felt convinced enough about the truth of any one faith to
> commit myself to join a denomination.

IMHO, your parents might have been not quite wrong. Having "enjoyed"
religious education, you may ( I dare say, probably ) happily grow to
a tolerant liberal. Else, you probably end up in bare, often aggressive,
rejection. My humble statistics point in that direction...I do admit,
you may end up as a bigot, as well...independently of the denomination,
even as a convinced atheist.
MKH

MKH
+ - Re: church growth in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 09:32 AM 5/12/97 +0200, Miklos Hoffmann wrote:
>
> >Janos Zsargo wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >Actually I had several classmate who were deeply
> >> religious. Also my humble experience was the more you know about
> >> this stuff the less confident and more cautious you become in the
> >> 'god or no God' issue.
> >>
> >INDEED. And not only on that issue...However, this doesn4t make the
> >exchange of opinions less interesting. It only makes you a bit more
> >respecting them. And THIS is beautiful.
>
> You're both believers.  Your comments on religion are therefore biased.
> The fact that neither of you are religious fanatics doesn't diminish your
> bias.  Mixing it up with what is beautiful, or what is respectful, is pure
> obfuscation.  It's mysticism at work.
>
> Joe Szalai

There is no point discussing this "contribution".
It is comforting, there is someone out there in the possession of THE
TRUTH and free from bias in the position of judging other people4s being
biased, Uncle Joe, the Wise.:-)))
MKH
+ - I'm Back!! (was Re: Mormons) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi, Agnes et al!

At 10:28 PM 5/11/97 GMT, you wrote:
<snip my stuff>
>Hi, Janka, I was just thought of you the other day, how you have
>disappeared fom the list.  Welcome back!
>
>Agnes

Thanks, Agnes! It's good to be back! Actually I have been lurking for quite
a while - but my disappearance from the List was actually caused by a major
disaster - my hard disk crashed and burned at the end of February. I lost
all the data on the disk - all of my previous correspondence - and it took
me over a month just to get the disk and the software replaced and get back
up and running.

BTW, I've been enjoying some of your comments and Eva Balogh's as well. It
seems to me your situation is one of honest perplexity about what would
have been best for your kids. Maybe the problem is aggravated because of
the distinctiveness of the Jewish culture from Christian - which make it
more difficult to find a middle ground? Anyway, I experienced the same sort
of thing from the kid's end - father, working class and Catholic, mother,
middle class and Methodist, and neither of them attended church - so I got
sent to the Presbyterian, because it was the closest to my home
geographically and because they had a lot of activities for children. But I
think it would have been more valuable had I been able to share the
experience with at least one of my parents. As it was, I stayed long enough
to be confirmed and never went back. I think religion is very important,
yet I have never felt convinced enough about the truth of any one faith to
commit myself to join a denomination.

U:dvo:zlettel,

Johanne/Janka

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: church growth in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

E.Durant wrote:

>approximation to reality.  There are scientists who are capable
>doing this in their field of research, but not in their ideological
>beliefs, which I found - dishonest - even if it is in most cases
>unintentional.

Congratulation Eva, this is a very 'meresz' (brave) statement. If
I were you I would think about an other possibility, i.e maybe
they know something. What makes you so sure about your 'beliefs'
and 'theories'? How much you know about the evolution theory and
the Geological History of Earth. I myself had several course in
Geology and one in Paleontology (oslenytan), and even had a
'szigorlat' in Geology ( a poor one though). I have to tell you
however that although I think the evolution theory is a right
approach to study the life on the Earth I was not convinced that
there is no God. Actually I had several classmate who were deeply
religious. Also my humble experience was the more you know about
this stuff the less confident and more cautious you become in the
'god or no God' issue.

J.Zs

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