------------------------------------------ -- EZ A SZÁM CSAK TEXT FORMÁBAN LÉTEZIK -- ------------------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 91 22:12:37 CDT Date: Sun Jun 30 22:48:12 EDT 1991 Subject: *** FORUM *** #269 Tartalomjegyzek: ---------------- Felado : bodorgeza@wugcrc.wustl.edu Temakor: Electronic life ( 278 sor ) Felado : hollosi%helios.ucsc.edu@ucscc.ucsc.edu Temakor: temakor nelkul ( 2 sor ) Felado : hollosi%helios.ucsc.edu@ucscc.ucsc.edu Temakor: ha valaki meg eljut eddig az olvasasban: kie ( 29 sor ) Felado : grg@graphics.cornell.edu Temakor: Habsburg Otto velemenye szamos vitatott kerdesunkrol 1 ( 80 sor ) Felado : grg@graphics.cornell.edu Temakor: Habsburg Otto velemenye szamos vitatott kerdesunkrol 2 ( 55 sor ) Felado : Anonymous Temakor: Re: Silicon-Life ( 18 sor ) Felado : andi@purccvm.bitnet Temakor: Bucsu ( 16 sor ) =============================================== Felado : bodorgeza@wugcrc.wustl.edu Temakor: Electronic life ( 278 sor ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Torocsik Jozsi levele jutatta eszembe, hogy orzok valahol egy X-NEWS uzenetet ami az electronikus "elet" es "evolucio" temaba vag. Az elet es evolucio szavakat azert tettem idezojelbe, mert definicio szerint azok nem lennenek alkalmazhatok az itt kovetkezo allapotkra. Lehet, hogy mint mar annyiszor, valtoztanunk kell a definiciokon ? A kovetkezo iras teljes egeszeben lett ide masolva a comp.theory.cell-automata news groupbol. ----------------- idezet kezdete ----------------------------- Subj: Cellular automata X-NEWS: wums2 comp.theory.cell-automata: 315 ^LFrom: ray@chopin.udel.edu (Thomas Ray) > A couple of days ago I was listening to a talk by Richard Dawkins about > modeling evolutionary processes on a computer. He mentioned an experiment > by Thomas Ray in which small (40 instructions long) autoreproducing programs > where allowed to spread freely in a certain amount of memory. Then, by > randomly mutating some of the programs you could see mutant programs > become better adapted for reproduction. ... > Has anyone heard about this experiment? If so please answer by e-mail. The work Peter describes is in press, and should be available in May: Ray, T. S. In Press. An approach to the synthesis of life. In: Artificial Life II, Santa Fe Institute Studies in the Sciences of Complexity, vol. XI, (Farmer, J. D., C. Langton, S. Rasmussen, & C. Taylor, eds). Redwood City, CA: Addison-Wesley, 1991. Although I don't have a paper in it, you might be interested in the following book which is available now: Langton, Christopher G. [ed.]. 1989. Artificial life: proceedings of an interdisciplinary workshop on the synthesis and simulation of living systems. Vol. VI in the series: Santa Fe Institute studies in the sciences of complexity. Addison-Wesley. Also, I will present the work in a seminar at Princeton (biology) on April 5, 1991. If anyone can't wait till May, I could email them a LaTeX version of the manuscript. Below I attach an abstract, and then a summary of the current activities of my research group. This is a slightly expanded version of an abstract describing this work, which was submitted to: European Society for Evolutionary Biology, Third Congress. Debrecen, Hungary September 2 - 6. Contact: Dr. Liz Pasztor - Department of Genetics - Eotvos University 1088 Budapest - Muzeum krt. 4/a. - Hungary. -------------------------begin abstract----------------------------------- Synthetic Life: co-evolution in digital organisms. THOMAS S. RAY. University of Delaware, Newark, DE, 19716, USA, ray@brahms.udel.edu. 302-451-2753 Ideally, the science of biology should embrace all forms of life. However in practice, it has been restricted to the study of a single instance of life, life on earth. Because our science of biology is based on a sample size of one, we can not know what features of life are peculiar to earth, and what features are general, characteristic of all life. A practical alternative to a truly comparative inter-planetary biology, is to create synthetic life. Evolution in a bottle provides a valuable tool for the experimental study of evolution and ecology. Synthetic organisms have been created based on a computer metaphor of organic life in which CPU time is the ``energy'' resource and memory is the ``material'' resource. Memory is organized into informational patterns that exploit CPU time for self-replication. Mutation generates new forms, and evolution proceeds by natural selection as different genotypes compete for CPU time and memory space. The creatures are self-replicating computer programs, however, they can not escape because they run exclusively on a virtual computer in its unique machine language. ^LThe virtual computer is effectively a containment facility. A single rudimentary ancestral ``creature'' has been designed; it is 80 machine instructions long and contains only the code for self-replication. This creature examines itself, determines its size and location in the memory ``soup'', and then copies itself, one instruction at a time, to another location in the soup. The ancestral creature does not interact directly with other individuals, although there is scrambling competition for access to memory space. A reaper kills creatures, assuring that there is always free space into which creatures can reproduce. When creatures are born, they enter the bottom of the reaper queue, and the reaper always kills off the top, which is usually the oldest creature. However, mutant creatures often generate errors, which cause them to rise in the reaper queue and be killed. From a single rudimentary ancestral ``creature'' there have evolved tens of thousands of self-replicating genotypes of many hundreds of genome size classes. Bit flipping mutations cause changes in the sequence of instructions in the genome, but they do not cause changes in the size of the genome. However, mutant genotypes make errors in their self-examination and replication, resulting in different sized genomes. As genetic change generates new genotypes, variants appear which are able to replicate more rapidly that their ancestors, and those variants increase in frequency in the soup. Very quickly there evolve parasites, which are not able to replicate in isolation because they lack a large portion of the genome. However, these parasites search for the missing information, and if they locate it in a nearby creature, they parasitize the information from the neighboring genome, thereby effecting their own replication. This informational parasitism is a commensal relationship, as it is not directly detrimental to the host. However, the parasites do compete with the hosts for space, and may be superior competitors because they can more rapidly replicate their smaller genome. However, their advantage is frequency dependent. As the parasites increase in frequency, the hosts decline, and many parasites fail to locate hosts. In ecological runs, without genetic change, hosts and parasites demonstrate Lotka-Volterra cycles. In some runs, hosts evolve immunity to attack by parasites. One immune mechanism that has been worked out is based on the fact that the creatures only examine themselves once, and rely on retaining the information on their size and location for all subsequent replications. Immune hosts cause their parasites to loose their sense of self by failing to retain the information on size and location. Immune hosts function with this forgetful code by re-examining themselves before each repliction, thus there is a metabolic cost to the immunity. When immune hosts appear, they often increase in frequency, devastating the parasite populations. In some runs where the community comes to be dominated by immune hosts, parasites evolve that are resistant to immunity. The above mentioned immune mechanism can by circumvented by parasites which also re-examine themselves before each replication. Hosts sometimes evolve a response to parasites that goes beyond immunity to actual hyper-parasitism. Hyper-parasites allow themselves to be parasitized, letting the parasite use their code for a single replication. After the first replication, the hyper-parasite deceives the parasite by replacing the parasite's record of its size and location with the size and location of the hyper-parasite genome. Thereafter, the parasite will devote its energetic resources to replication of the hyper-parastie genome. This is a highly deleterious interaction, which drives the parasites to extinction. The hyper-parasites are facultative, getting an energy boost when the parasites ^Lare present, but not requiring them for replication. Evolving in the absence of parasites, hyper-parasites completely dominate the community, resulting in a relatively uniform community characterize by a high degree of relationship between individuals. Under these circumstances, sociality evolves, in the sense that the creatures evolve into forms which can not replicate in isolation, but which can only replicate in aggregations. These colonial creatures cooperate in the control of the flow of execution of their algorithms. The cooperative behavior of the social hyper-parasites makes them vulnerable to a new class of parasites. These cheaters, hyper-hyper-parasites, insert themselves between cooperating social individuals, and momentarily seize control of execution of the algroithm, just long enough to deceive the social creatures about their size and location, causing the social creatures to replicate the genomes of the cheaters. In a separate experiment, two versions of the ancestral creature were made, each with a different portion of the genome deleted. Neither of these genomes were able to replicate in isolation. However, when cultured together, they each parasitize the missing code from the other, forming an ecologically stable obligate symbiotic relationship. When genetic change is allowed in the system, a very complex series of changes follows, ultimately resulting in the merging of the two genomes into a single self-replicating genome. The only kind of genetic change that the simulator imposes on the system is random bit flips in the machine code of the creatures. However, it turns out that parasites are very sloppy replicators. They cause significant recombination and rearrangement of the genomes. This spontaneous sexuality is a powerful force for evolutionary change in the system. A series of experiments were conducted on the effects of mutation rates on the rates of evolution. The parameter used to compare rates of evolution was the rate at which self-replicating genomes decreased in size, indicating an optimization, in an environment favoring smaller sizes. The optimal mutation rate was found to be a mutation affecting one in four individuals per generation. At higher rates the community sometimes died out, as genomes melted under the mutational heat. At lower rates, optimization was slower. Fully self-replicating (non-parasitic) genomes reduced from 80 instructions to 22 instructions overnight (more than 1500 generations, of populations ranging from 300 to 1000 individuals). The ancestor of size 80 requires 839 CPU cycles to replicate. The creature of size 22 requires 146 CPU cycles to replicate, a 5.75-fold difference in efficiency. One of the most interesting aspects of this second instance of life is that the bulk of the evolution is based on adaptation to the biotic environment rather than the physical environment. It is co-evolution that drives the system. It is possible to extract information on any aspect of the system without disturbing it, from phylogeny or community structure through time to the ``genetic makeup'' and ``metabolic processes'' of individuals. Synthetic Life demonstrates the power of the computational approach to science as a complement to the traditional approaches of experiment and theory based on analysis through calculus and differential equations. I will make an oral presentation. I will need an overhead projector, and two three-pronged power outlets nearby to plug in the computer and LCD panel. ---------------------------end abstract---------------------------------- This message was distributed internally to the University of Delaware Synthetic Life group. I thought that other AL fans might be interested ^Lto know what we are up to: We haven't met as a group for some time, so I thought I would send out this progress report. TECHNOLOGY REVIEW ARTICLE - The next issue of Technology Review (April/May), due out in March, will include an article on Artificial Life. They will describe (among other things) the work of our group, and will include a series of four color photos of the ALmond Monitor of Tierra that Marc Cygnus has developed. ALMOND TALKS - Marc Cygnus has got the ALmond monitor program talking to the Tierra simulator using network communications. We can now have multiple simulators running on multiple machines, and monitor them from multiple monitors on multiple machines. The monitors can attach to and detach from the simulators without disturbing them. AL AND GA - Chris Bryden has completed his term paper discussing the relationships between synthetic life and genetic algorithms. THE MATRIX OF LIFE - John Billon has completed his independent study by exploring the possibility of implementing a synthetic life system in a matrix based environment. THE GENETIC LANGUAGE - Dan Pirone has designed a much more powerful version of the Tierran language, and has the bulk of the new instruction set coded. The syntax is much more complex than the original Tierran. We are hoping that it will be as evolvable. OPTIMIZATION OF TIERRA - Tom Uffner has tackled the task of optimizing the tierra simulator code. He is starting with the genebank manager which works, but is very inefficient. His proposals for optimization sound very promising. DIVERSITY AND TURNOVER - Eric Andrews and Jim Timmons are developing code to monitor diversity and turnover rates of size classes and genotypes in the soups. They are already generating the diversity indices, and are working on the turnover rates. AUTECOLOGY - Over winter session I automated the analysis of ecological interactions between creatures. Now when genotypes are saved to disk, the code that is actually executed is marked, to distinguish it from "junk" (unexecuted) code. Also, the basic classes of ecological interactions have been identified, and the interactions engaged in by a genotype are marked in a bit field that is saved with each genotype. EVOLUTIONARY OPTIMIZATION OF MACHINE CODES - I completed a study of the effect of mutation rate on the rate of evolution. As an index of the rate of evolution, I used the rate at which self-replicating machine code programs reduce their size. The optimal mutation rate was one that hit about one in four programs per generation. At higher rates, the communities sometimes died out, as genomes melted under the mutational heat. The programs reduced themselves from 80 machine instructions to 22 machine instructions overnight (over 1500 generations, of populations ranging from 300 to 1000 individuals). There was a 5.75-fold decrease in the number of CPU cycles required for replication. IRISVILLE OPENS - The two Silicon Graphics machines and the Sun in 114 Wolf are up and running and on the net. life.slhs.udel.edu is a 4D25TG Personal Iris with 32MB of memory and a 1.2 GB disk. tierra.slhs.udel.edu is a 4D258 (Iris) Data Station Server with 32MB of memory and a 1.2 GB disk. genie.slhs.udel.edu is a Sun 3/60 with 8MB of memory, about 300 MB of disk, and a color monitor. The Irises are rated at 16 MIPS each, and the Sun at about 4 MIPS. These machines are for the exclusive use of the School of ^LLife and Health Sciences (SLHS), which so far has meant just for the alife group. The two Irises have been running the Tierra simulator around the clock since they came up. Tom Ray University of Delaware School of Life & Health Sciences Newark, Delaware 19716 ray@brahms.udel.edu 302-451-2281 (FAX) 302-451-2753 =============================================== Felado : hollosi%helios.ucsc.edu@ucscc.ucsc.edu Temakor: temakor nelkul ( 2 sor ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Torocsik Jeno. Vagy Hollosi Jozsi. A levelet (ezt is, mert a Silicon Life-ot is) az utobbi irta. =============================================== Felado : hollosi%helios.ucsc.edu@ucscc.ucsc.edu Temakor: ha valaki meg eljut eddig az olvasasban: kie ( 29 sor ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kedves Gabor (Toth): > Ugyanakkor: software-t lopni nem szep dolog, de olyan keveset keresni sem > szep dolog, hogy az ember ne tudja megvenni a SZUKSEGES programot. Azt hiszem, magyar viszonyok kozott a kereset nem csak software-re keves, hanem pl. autora is. Hanyan foglalkozunk megis az autolopas gondolataval??? > Ha a > valasztas az, es CSAK az, hogy vagy nem veszem meg, vagy lemasolom, akkor > ettol a valasztastol a software szerzoi nem lesznek szegenyebbek vagy > gazdagabbak. Ez a "nem lesznek szegenyebbek" jol hangzik, de nem igaz. Pl. azt gondolhatnank, hogy egy repulogepet ures helyekkel elinditani rosszabb, mint az utolso pillanatban olcson kiarusitani a megmaradt helyeket, hiszen a gep ugyis elmegy. Hogy is van ez? > A lopas tovabbra is > erkolcsi vetseg marad, de esetleg jogos ezt osszehasonlitani azokkal az > elonyoket, ami a lopasbol ered (pl. hogy az ember felhasznalja a software-t > valami jo celra, amivel MASOKnak segit). A lopott autot is lehet jo celra hasznalni. Sot. Akkor most vegulis mi a kulonbseg az anyagi tulajdon es a szellemi tulajdon kozott? Szerintem leginkabb az, hogy az utobbi meg "nincs a verunkben". Jozsi. =============================================== Felado : grg@graphics.cornell.edu Temakor: Habsburg Otto velemenye szamos vitatott kerdesunkrol 1 ( 80 sor ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kedves Mindenki, ^LAz elmult hetekben/honapokban sok hozzaszolas hangzott el a FORUM hasabjain Magyarorszag eladosodasa, az EXPO, stb. teren, es a Pentagonale-val kapcsolatban Habsburg Otto neve is folmerult. Az IGEN cimu folyoirat Majus 10-i szamanak hatoldalan talaltam a kovetkezo beszamolot Habsburg Otto egy aprilis 20.-i eloadasarol es az azt koveto kerdesekrol/valaszokrol --- ezekbol sajnos nem tudhatjuk meg velemenyet a Pentagonale kerdeseben, de sok mas, vitainkban is gyakran felmerulo temaban tomoren osszefoglalja mondanivalojat. Kovetkezzek tehat a beszamolo. A cikket ket reszletben kuldom, mert a FORUM egybe visszadobta, mivel 100 sornal valamivel hosszabb :-( --------------------------------------------------------------- IGEN, 1991 majus 10, 32. oldal: Habsburg Otto IGEN-je Elso resz A 79. e've't taposo orokifju kiralyfi kulpolitikarol beszelt Me'nfo"csanakon, az MDF Keresztenydemokrata Korenek konferenciajan. Elsosorban. Rutinosan egy szellemes folutessel kezdte, azzal, hogy o eddig mint magyar, osztrak es nemet allampolgar, egyszerre volt a NATO tagja, semleges, es a Varsoi Szerzodeshez tartozo. Megitelese szerint a magyar kulpolitikai iranyitas jo, kivaloan mukodnek az europai kozosseghez valo csatlakozast elokeszito targyalasokon a magyarok. Nincs igazuk azoknak, akik a Kozos Piachoz valo csatlakozasunk idejet 10-15 evre teszik, szerinte mar ez ev vegen, de jovore mindenkeppen komolyan elore lehet lepni az elvi kerdesek tisztazasaban. A konkret kerdesek megoldasa joval kemenyebb dio. Az magyar poziciokat javitotta az Obol-haboru kimenetele. Ezzel kapcsolatban megallapitotta, hogy a haborut az amerikaiak tokeletesen vezettek, jol oldottak meg a katonai feladatokat, es a helyzet most sokkal rosszabb, mint volt... Dr. Habsburg szerint az orszagnak a kulugyeire kell koncentranlnia. Elsosorban azert, mert ket folbomlo allam szomszedsagaban elunk. Bomlik a Szovjetunio, nem lehet kiszamitani, hogy ennek mik lesznek a kovetkezmenyei. Ez a sors var Jugoszlaviara is, mint termeszetellenes kepzodmenyre. A regi szamlakat, a trianonit is, ki kell fizetni, de ki kell fozetni a cari imperializmus ket-haromszazeves szamlait is. Masodsorban: Kelet- es Kozep- Europa felszabadulasa meg nem fejezodott be. Nem szabadok a romanok, a bulgarok, a balti nepek, sot, fol kell szabaditani az oroszokat is. Nemzet- kozi szerzodesekkel kell rendezni az uj Europa kereteben a nemzetisegek sorsat, mert a nemzetisegi kerdes lesz a jovendo gyu'anyaga. Harmadsorban a kulke- reskedelmi es adossaghelyzetunk miatt. Ezzel kapcsolatban --- kerdesre valaszolva --- kifejtette, hogy Magyarorszag oriasi tekintelyt szerzett maganak azzal, hogy fizeti a kommunistak-csinalta adossagait. Az adossagelengedest nem szabad hivatalosan kerni (a lengyeleknek adossagaik reszleges torlese ota a japanok nem hiteleznek --- a szerk.) Mas kerdes, hogy a kulfoldi magyarok kozul sokan, es szemely szerint o is faradozik adossagaink egy reszenek elengedesen. Eppen az elozo napon --- aprilis 19.-en --- irta ala az euoropa- parlamenti bizottsaga altal keszitett es a magyar adossagcsokkentesre iranyulo eloterjesztest. A kulpolitikai kerdesekben ossze kell fogni. Nem lehet, hogy a vitatott, vitathato, es vitatando belso kerdesek a kulpolitikaban is megjelenjenek. Kifele az orszagnak teljes egyseget kell mutatnia. Ebben a partoknak szot kell erteniok, targyalniok kell, mindenkinek mindenkivel; ha magyar ugyrol van szo, mindenre kesznek kell lennunk. O meg egy alkalommal Horthy Miklossal is szobaallt. Az egyetlen ember, akivel nem volt hajlando leulni, Adolf Hitler volt. ^LA sajtoval is beszelni kell. Legyet ecettel meg senki sem fogott. Mezzel kell legyet fogni. A kozvelemeny-kutatasokkal kapcsolatban Strauss bajor miniszterelnokot idezte, aki az ilyesmoket olvasatlanul szokta a papirkosarba hajitani: ha en nem kepviselhetem a sajat eszmeimet, akkor nincs helyem a politikaban. Kitert meg a magyar pesszimizmusra: szerinte ennek semmi alapos oka. Vegre szabadok vagyunk, megnyiltak elottunk az europai csatlakozas kapui, gazdasagi helyzetunk osszehasonlithatatlanul jobb a kornyezo orszagokenal. Reszt kell vennunk a kozeletben. El kell mennunk szavazni is a valasztasokon, mert a tavolmaradassal a legkevesbe kivant jeloltet tamogatjuk. !!! folyt. kov. =============================================== Felado : grg@graphics.cornell.edu Temakor: Habsburg Otto velemenye szamos vitatott kerdesunkrol 2 ( 55 sor ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --------------------------------------------------------------- IGEN, 1991 majus 10, 32. oldal: Habsburg Otto IGEN-je Masodik resz A mintegy oras eloadas utan a termet zsufolasig megtolto kozonseg kerdeseket tett fol dr. Habsburg Ottonak. Ezek kozul valasztunk nehanyat. Kerdes: a horvat fegyverszallitasnak volt-e kedvezotlen kihatasa hazank nyugati megitelesere? Valasz: Nem volt. Europa eszre sem vette. Kerdes: A kommunistak kaeftekben es mas vallalatoknak maguknak privatizaljak a kozvagyont... Valasz: Ma ok a leggazdagabb emberek Europaban. A legdragabb strassbourgi szallodaba, a Krokodilba, a volt kommunistakon kivul mas szinte be sem teszi a labat. A Seychelle szigeteken uj bankok alapultak, a volt kelet-europai vezetok penzeinek kezelesere. Torvenyes eszkozokkel mindig nehez torveny- telenek ellen follepni. Jogallamot nem lehet ugy epiteni, hogy jogtalan jogtalan eszkozoket veszunk igenybe --- peldaul ilyen bunok megakadalyozasara. Nem szabad lesullyednunk hozzajuk. Kerdes: Bos-Nagymaros? Valasz: Sulyos veszelyt jelent az egesz Karpat-medencere. A legnagyobb rosszat az osztrak kormany tette, amikor kolcsonokkel tamogatta az epitkezest. Kerdes: Expo? Valasz: Szaz szazalekig hive. Megpedig Pozsony bevonasaval, ami bizonnyal javitana a szlovak-magyar viszonyt. Kerdes: Hogyan kepzeli a kozep-europai rendezest? Valasz: Csak europai rendezes lehetseges. A Kozos Piacnak egesz Europara ki kell terjednie. A balkani orszagokra is, elsosorban es egyelore Bulgariara, ahol a kommunizmus visszaszoritasa jol halad. Sajnos, ez nem mondhato el pillanatnyilag Romaniarol. Egy europai gazdasagi egyseg a politikai kulonbsegeket elmosna es hozzasegitene a nemzetisegi kerdes rendezesehez. Kerdes: Mit szolt a vilag ahhoz, hogy Antall Jozsef lelekben 15 millio magyar miniszterelnokenek vallotta magat? Valasz: Semmit. A vilag nem figyelt erre a kijelentesre. De Antall ur ^Lhelyesen beszelt. A nemet kancallar is felelos lelekben a vilag osszes nemetjeiert. Kerdes: A magyarsag iranti szeretetet, elkotelezettseget atulteti-e gyermekeibe, unokaiba? Valasz: Igen. - cz - (ugy hiszem, ez a "cz" Czako Gabort, az IGEN foszerkesztojet fedi --- Greschik Gyula) =============================================== Felado : Anonymous Temakor: Re: Silicon-Life ( 18 sor ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - "Artificial life"-al sokan foglalkoznak. Ugy tudom van egy kb. "alife" nevu mailing list, sot valoszinuleg nyomtatott folyoirat is. Ami viszont biztos, az az hogy van egy ftp-zheto alife archivum: artificial life archive: $ ftp iuvax.cs.indiana.edu % (or 129.79.254.192) login: anonymous password: ftp> cd pub/alife/papers ftp> binary ftp> get schrau90-dpe.ps.Z ftp> quit $ uncompress schrau90-dpe.ps.Z $ lpr schrau90-dpe.ps (ez csak egyike a cikkeknek, gondolom dir-el lehet tartalomjegyzeke szerezni) Ha valaki foglalkozik kicvsit ezzel, erdekelne, hogy mi jelenleg az elet definicioja. Udv, Foldiak Peter =============================================== Felado : andi@purccvm.bitnet Temakor: Bucsu ( 16 sor ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - T. Forum! Amikor elkezdtem jaratni a Forumot, akkor csak automatikusan bejelentkeztem. Most azonban, amikor felhagyok vele, el akarok koszonni Mindotoktol, mert a hozzaszolasaitok alapjan ugy erzem, mintha talalkoztunk volna szemelyesen egy rovid idore. Erdekes volt olvasni a velemenyeiteket - meg akkor is, ha nem ertettem egyet sokszor, vagy a stilus zavart idonkent. A vitak engem is motivaltak a sajat erveimet ujjhegyre szedni, es esetenkent izgalmas volt kiallni a velemenyemmel a porondra. Orulok, hogy nemelyikotoket egy kicsit jobban is megismerhettem a kapcsolodo magan leveleken keresztul. Kulon koszonetet mondok mindazoknak, akik a Forumot fenntartjak, elukon Hollosi Jozsival! Udvozlettel: Szilagyi Andrea