writes:
> I wish to take exception to Andras Kornai's comment on the recent elections.
> He ventured "that anybody who can see Newt Gingrich as a part of a happy
> experience needs their head examined".

It was meant in jest, as the anachronistic "methinks" that introduced this
parenthetical remark clearly indicated. Or perhaps not so clearly, so let me
state explicitely that the literal reading "requires the services of a
psychiatrist" was not intended. The point of the remark (namely that
personally I find Gingrich an extremely unpleasant character) is quite
independent of my supposed "great degree of intolerance toward the political
conviction of others". Indeed I dislike Gingrich, and indeed I didn't like
the outcome of the elections. But of course many people who hold strong
Republican convictions also dislike Gingrich, and many people who hold
strong Democratic convictions dislike some rather prominent Democratic
politicians like Ted Kennedy. How you feel about a political system of
values and how you feel about politician X or Y are two different matters,
and I find your argument that turns a particular vote from a display of
political convictions to an endorsement of a particular political figure
rather disingenuous:

> the majority of the American citizens who cared to vote,chose
> a Republican candidate,knowing that they indirectly voted for the future
> Speaker of the House.
They also indirectly voted for the future head of the Ways and Means
committe, but this doesn't mean the all endorse that person. In Hungary, a
significant portion of the electorate voted for the Socialists in spite of
Gyula Horn, but if we were to accept your logic, the Hungarian electorate
endorsed padded coats and reckless driving out of political convictions.

> examplifies the condescending attitude of liberals who assume that anybody
> who does not agree with them requires the services of a psychiatrist.
These are rather broad conlusions on the basis of a small joke, don't you
think? First there is the jump from the joke to the literal meaning, next
there is the jump from me to liberals in general, and finally there is the
jump (petitio principii) to the status of "exemplifying" what is, according
to you, an already known fact, namely that liberals have a condescending
attitude. Shall I make the same series of logical errors and conclude that
Republicans have a chip on their shoulder and are fishing for insults
everywhere? No, I will limit myself to the more defensible statement that
*some* Republicans have *no* sense of irony.  If you wish to take exception
I guess noone can stop you. And if you can see Newt Gingrich as part of a
happy experience, hey, we should all learn from your powers of Positive
Thinking.

Andra1s Kornai

I don't know to which category I've been generously stuffed (see below)
but when my son was in hospital (Kaposvar '86) and my daughter (Siofok,
1987) I was told by family/friends to give money.
(The low income of doctors and medical staff was common knowledge.)
None of the staff in the hospitals accepted my money, in Kaposvar,
I was advised to take a bottle of brandy to the head of dept.
I was taking chocolate and small presents to the nurses, who were
extremely helpful before any show of such effluence.


>
> Sometimes I wish non-Hungarians would refrain from writing in this
> newsgroup. This health-care/hospital debate is one instance of the
> sometimes.
> You crypto-Commies out there:
> Yes, health care is nominally free in Hungary:
> but, if you want to be fed, you have to bribe the nurse.
> Sometimes, if you want a bed, and not lie on a gurney in the hallway, you
> have to bribe the administrators.
> if you want to eat home-cooked meals, your relatives have to bribe  the
> porter so he would let them in outside visiting hours.
> If you want the doctors to stop by your bed during rounds, you must give
> them tips.
> If you want painkillers at night, you must tip the night nurse.
> if you want to be washed, you must tip two nurses, one to turn you over,
> and the other to do the washing.
> Hospitals and other health care facilities are run on a feudal basis, the
> people with money are cared for by the chief physicians, patients with
> less money by the lesser lights, and poor people by the novices. Patient
> stealing is frowned upon. A case in point: a young man in the family was
> diagnosed with a cancerous tumor on his knee. His parents had money, so
> when his doctor went to Boston for 3 months to study, no one in the
> hospital would do anything for the 19 year old. By the time the doctor
> came back, of course the cancer had spread to his hips and everywhere.
> And this happened not in 1978, but 1993.
> Autopsy is mandatory for people who die in hospitals, but the stated
> cause of death is very general: heart failure, general toxaemia, etc.
> Yours,
> Tom Sulyok

Sounds like a cover-up, the same practice around here when an
overworked junior or an uncaring other makes a mistake.
My experience of hospitals here for similar treatment (Lancashire,
England 1988) are worse than what I've seen in Hungary. Perhaps
I just didn't go to the right hospitals...
Also if someone reports malpractice, he gets the sack (see
the rare reported case of Mr Pink) 

On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, Joe Pannon wrote:

> I just knew that Zoli would soon come with an opposing opinion! ;-)
>
> Zoli, what you forgot to mention was whether your dad or someone in your
> family was a Very Important Person.  That could make a difference, you
> know.

Well, Joe, I did not forget to mention that because my dad is only a Very
Important Person to me and my family but hardly to "the country".  He is
just an average engineer, never been member of the communist party.  He
went through his first open heart operation in 1972 and the second in
1984.  He has two plastic valves in his heart.  I think that we certainly
can credit doctors for such an operation, and for the fact that my dad is
still alive today in 1994.  Also, I would just like to remind you that it
never cost a cent for him to go through any of these procedures.  No
connections, no bribes.  Sorry if my situation is different from your
friends' or relatives experiences.

  Besides, I don't recall that any of us said that ALL hospitals
> were bad all the time.

No, but it was suggested several times that you can only get quality
service from a Hungarian doctor or nurse if you bribe them.  Well, I
think it is utterly untrue.

Zoli

In response to the Andras Kornai treatsy responding to my query on elation
and other sundry answers.

First of all, about elation, I do not recall Andras being elated about the
Hungarian election results, so I take his exception with grace. Some postings
on the group did indicate elation. As the old saying goes "Akinek nem inge ne
vegye magara" (If its not your shirt don't wear it). As far as I am concerned
the Hungarian government is as "pitianer" as many previous ones. They do not
seem to understand economics, geopolitics or management, other than that,
they are OK. One could not find a "statesman" among the leading politicians
of any of the parties in Hungary. I have not heard any of them state that "it
will get worse before it can get better" and we will try to do our best to
make the worse period as short as possible. A la "blood, sweat and tears".

In my opinion, in any nation, a certain amount of immigration is acceptable
without significantly changing the social fabric of the nation. That occurs
when the immigrant culture can be absorbed into the existing national
culture. generally with beneficial effects. However, when immigration occurs
in a manner that creates a separate culture, there are problems. The
resentment as demonstrated in California, is less because of a specific
economic stress being created, and more because of a societal stress from non
or slowly absorbed immigrants. Naturally, the seeming lack of control
aggregates the issue. If one could swim to the US from China, you could have
a million immigrants per year from China alone. Regardless of the source,
heavy immigration, from a different culture, does create stress in any host
country. I disagree, that strictly on an "equal opportunity" basis, a country
that strives toward equal opportunity is obligated to take everybody from
areas where such philosophy is not prime importance. While, it lately is
derided by some even in the US, a lot of energy, work, suffering and
willingness to die for a cause, did contribute to the existence of this
country and to the type of existence available to all its citizens who, by
the way, are also responsible for defending it.

The ultimate responsibility of a citizen is to answer the call to give his or
her life for the country. Such responsibility does not apply to illegal
aliens.

Regards,Jeliko
I do not know specifically the current Hungarian immigration level from
Transylvania or Bacska, but understand that it is significant. I also recall
that the largest number of "illegals" are turned back at the Romania-Hungary
border. The immigration of Hungarians from those areas naturally does not
stress the social fabric of Hungary. The non-integration of Gypsies is a
separate problem and if Hungary does not find an accelerated way to
accomplish it, the problem will fester for years to come. But what is again
shown is that a different culture is much more difficult to integrate than an
identical one. I am just reading the history of Serbian resettlement into the
Bacska area, where whole villages moved for economic and religious reasons
from Turkish occupied Serbia to Austrian occupied Hungary. The results are
well known to all. At some point what is the difference between a military
occupation of an area for economic reasons or an uncontrolled massive
immigration into an area?

I`m a norwegian student who maybe will study in Hungary in the future at the
Technical University of Budapest. Is there anyone outhere who has studied at
this university earlier who can give a foreign some advices ? I`m very chocked
about the costs of studying at the university. Or can some stipends decrease
the costs ? For a one year you must pay 7000 US $. Is that normally ?
Please help me ! Sorry about the english ! I`m a norwegian !!

Greets from norway :

Tomas Attila Paulsen Olaj

I would like to filter out the well meaning (e.g.) Scandinavians, who
believe everything that they've read in the papers. (free healthcare for
the masses!)
Tom SUlyok

I am loocking for the tel, Fax Nr Adress and E--mail of the Budapest Stock

Exchange..
(I would like to visit it next week...)
Could someone help me ?
Thanks
Sophie

On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Tom Sulyok wrote:

> I would like to filter out the well meaning (e.g.) Scandinavians, who
> believe everything that they've read in the papers. (free healthcare for
> the masses!)
> Tom SUlyok

..you are right Tom, people in this beautiful and great country, your
"beloved United States" don't belive what they read in the papers.  How
did the papers come here anyways?

Zoli

Stefan Gimeson objects to the word "bribery" in connection with medical care
in Hungary. Well, let's call it by its "official" name, "ha'lape'nz" (money
of gratitude). By the way, the Hungarian dictionary is bashful about the term
"ha1lape1nz", the editors left it out of the Hungarian vocabulary, but
believe me it does exist. In fact, it exists to such an extent that there had
been talks about forcing doctors to declare income derived from "ha1lape1nz"
and making it taxable. Horrifying thought, said one of my to-be-doctor
relatives. What an idea! Well, in some ways it exists because of the
extremely low salaries doctors make. About a month ago there was an article
in *168 ora* about those doctors who simply abandon their professions and
hire themselves out as salesmen for large, mostly foreign, drug companies.
One woman who didn't want her name to be disclosed said the following about
her decision to be a salesperson for an unnamed drug company. Her net monthly
pay was 14,000 Ft. She was supposed to look after eighty patients a day. As
she said it, it was more "to look at them" than "to look after them."
["la'tni" versus "ella'tni"]. Now she drives a company car and makes 100,000
Ft. a month.

And indeed, it is also true that the bigwigs in the hospitals try to lay
their hands on patients who look well off and therefore there is the
possibility of "ha'lape'nz." One classical story was told to me by a young
surgeon. In his hospital the head of the department always looked after those
patients who had their own pajamas because the assumption was that those guys
had money, while he, the youngest on the ward, always ended up with those who
wore the hospital-issued pajamas. One day came an older patient who didn't
have his own pajamas and my friend Peter was assigned to look after him.
Peter who is an extremely nice guy not only operated on him but after the
fellow was released from the hospital he kept visiting him at home to change
his bandages. At his last visit the fellow pushed a very handsome amount of
money into his hands. This was the first time he received any money and
didn't even know what to do or what to say. He stumbled out of the building.
His wife happened to be waiting for him on the street. They were young and
poor and Peter said to her: look what we got. And they began counting the
money under a street light. It turned out that the fellow without his own
pajamas was a "maszek" [someone who had his own business] and was actually
quite well off. As long as salaries are as low as they are today the
existence of "ha'lape'nz" is unavoidable.

The other serious problem is the lack of diagnostic equipment. My
to-be-doctor young cousin [fifth-year medical student] wrote me about half a
year ago: In Pe'cs we have only one CT machine, apparently we will have a
second one soon. In the whole of Transdanubia we have only one NMR machine.
Both these are modern and very useful machines but one must wait a very long
time for an exam while the patient's condition is worsening. The telephone
lines are overused: often one is not able to phone the hospital. There are
not enough ambulances and paramedics. It takes two hours to get the patient
to the CT machine. In case of stroke every hour means eternity. After six
hours one can use only conservative methods, i.e. rehabilitation. . . . The
salaries of doctors are very low (those of nurses, too), but the government
says they get "ha'lape'nz," anyway. . . . Doctors received a questionnaire
asking them how much money they receive as "ha'alape'nz." Instead they should
be paid decently and then we wouldn't have this impossible situation."

And as I said, the average life expectancy is very low and has been getting
lower year after year. Don't tell me that the standard of medical care has
nothing to do with this trend.

Eva Balogh

Joe:

I did not follow the net's discussion on the results of recent U.S. elections.
Please forgive me if I repeat already stated views.  A recent NPR (National
Public Radio) program discussed the budget cuts being considered by the new
Republican majority in Congress. The cuts would include the budgets of Public
Radio and Television, the National Endowment for the Arts, the National
Endowment for the Humanities, and U.S. aid to Eastern Europe and to the
successor states of the former Soviet Union.

Please note, these are the views of Republican politicians who are interested
in budgetary matters.  Senator Jesse Helms, who is the front runner for the
chairmanship of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, was not quoted in the
above NPR program.

Victor F. Marx

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------

In article >, Joe Pannon
> writes:
>The election results may have a closer connection to Hungary than we
>discussed so far.  Not just for Hungary, but Hungary's neighborhood
>as well.
>

>I wonder what do you think about the following:>There might be a connection to
between Clinton's decision to finally end
>that silly arms embargo against B-H and the election results.  Is he
>trying to ingratiate himself with a more hard-line Congress coming in?
>
>What about Hungary's NATO membership?  Could that also be speeded up by
>the new Congress?
>
>I am not sure myself about the answers to these questions.  What do YOU
>think is to be the likely course of the next Congress in foreign policy
>matters such as these?
>
>Joe

___MAGYAR ELEKTRONIKUS TOZSDE____________________________HU-ISSN_1216-0229
                                     copyright  1994. IV. evfolyam /volume
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Megjegyzesek:  (Note)
> P/E az Arfolyam/egy reszvenyre juto varhato eredmeny hanadosa
>Online teletext kozvetites az MTV 1 es MTV 2 musora alatt!
Kedvezoen ertekeljuk ezt a regen vart szolgaltatast. A tozsde
kezdeti idoszakaban meg egy C64 szamitogep elott ulve online
kozvetitettek a koteseket, majd az uj technikat bevezetve valahogy
megfeletkeztek errol a lenyeges szolgaltatsarol, ugy keso este
nagyjabol a begepeltek a koteseket....A megujjult elo kozvetitest
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1995 tol hivatalos a BET indexe <index2>
A honap leglikvidebb papirjai: Danubius, Globus, Pick, Primagaz,
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Jancs" P ter
vez rigazgat"

Tev kenys g: Textilipar
A t zsdei bevezet s  ve:1994
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A t rsas g t rzsr szv nyeinek sz ma:           db
                         -n v rt ke: 1000     eFt
Ad"zott eredm ny                mFt  oszt.:   %   eredm ny/r szv ny
           1993    151,000      mFt         0 %    65


mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

       M     M   EEEEE   TTTTTTT   1994. IV. volume /evfolyam.
       M M M M   E          T        HU ISSN  1216-0229
       M  M  M   EEEE       T      HUNGARIAN  ELECTRONIC EXCHANGE
       M     M   E          T           ELECTRONIC JOURNAL
       M     M   EEEEEE     T      BUDAPEST,Pf.311. H-1536.HUNGARY
       Kiado/Publisher: dr.Orczan, Zsolt L.    
       Foszerkeszto/ Editor  Orczan, Csaba S.  
            Megrendeles; lemondas  cimen
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