In article >, "Charles M.
Vamossy" > writes:

>There is, it seems to me, no corelation between the presence of unions
>and good education.  The wealth of the community and the value it
>places on education has high corelation.  High achiver parents tend to
>have high achiever kids who demand and get for them good education,
>wheather in Chapel Hill or Scarsdale.  They pay their teachers above
>average wages.
>
>

Charlie hits rather tangentially here on something I have noticed. The
quality of education offered from public school system to public school
system really seems to be culturally driven. If education is an important
culturative norm, then children within that culture will do fairly well in
school. If it's not an important part of the culture, well, there's always
plenty of tobacco to prime or shelf-stocking jobs at Wal-Mart. There are,
of course, always exceptions. One of my roommates at N.C. State University
back in the early 1980s was the son of a physician. Last time I saw him,
he was driving a beer delivery truck. Another roommate came from a large
farm family that scraped by from week to week because the father had died
years earlier. This roommate -- who seemed to live on a diet of noodles,
wore threadbare clothing and had never travelled much more than a day's
journey by interstate from the farm where he was born -- graduated with
honors in a very demanding engineering curriculum.

I have always considered Hungary to be a society and culture that honored
academic achievement, much more so than my own native North Carolina. (and
I come from a long, long line of teachers in the northeastern part of the
state) Do teachers, as a whole, find a little more honor and prestige in
their profession there than they do here?
Sam Stowe

"If this is paradise,
I wish I had a lawn mower..." -- (Nothing But) Flowers, Talking Heads

>
> No. But if a Westchester, NY school district puts out an ad for a vacant
> teacher's job, and there are several hundred applicants, than that means
> that the school board is in a position to fire all existing teachers and
> hire others at half the price. It means that the existing ones are overpaid.
>

That is an interesting argument.  The head of gasboard and the Queen
should be sacked, there are millions who would do those
jobs at a fraction of the cost... and probably not much worse
or even better...
Don't forget, teacher-unemployment is an artificial
fenomenon, here in the UK  is linked with growing class-sizes
and cuts in education budgets.
Eva Durant

I haven't seen the start to this thread, but I
am sure, that the teacher's union would ensure
better education, if it is efficient enough to
provide decent working conditions for teachers.
I'm sure in an atmosphere of free talk and ready
flow of information of new ideas, small groups and
good equipment, enough time for preparations, etc,
teaching is better, and such conditions more likely
in a unionised place.  However, if unions are powerless,
the school is a sad place, where everyone is terrified for
their jobs, petty jelousies are  allowed to dominate,
nobody voices criticism of bad practices,
the head of department/headteacher rules as a tyrant.

Eva Durant

>
> I have always considered Hungary to be a society and culture that honored
> academic achievement, much more so than my own native North Carolina. (and
> I come from a long, long line of teachers in the northeastern part of the
> state) Do teachers, as a whole, find a little more honor and prestige in
> their profession there than they do here?
> Sam Stowe
>
> "If this is paradise,
> I wish I had a lawn mower..." -- (Nothing But) Flowers, Talking Heads

They used to. Most parent's attitude was, that the teacher is
always right, in the 70s, and teachers were very respected
members of the community, even if their salaries were always
lower than comparable graduate jobs.  In the 80s the role
of intellectuals in general started to have lower status,
as it became evident, that more money can be made without
certificates.  However, as university places were so
restricted, the race to get to higher education and
some of the prestige.
I worked for a year as an unqualified "napkozi"
(afternoon care) teacher, the same time a young
nursery teacher started in the village (1983),
and the community treated us with real deference.
this behaviour could have been also the consequence
of knowledge of the reluctance in taking up teaching
jobs in small
far-away (isten hata mogotti) places, even with the
offer of accomodation and perks from the local coop...
I apologise - sorry! I had a good time...
What I hear now, the status of teachers - together
with their living standards - is sliding ever since,
and I've never heard a claim, that they'd been ever
overpaid.

Eva Durant

At 01:30 PM 7/2/96 +0100, Eva Durant wrote:
> The head of gasboard and the Queen
>should be sacked, there are millions who would do those
>jobs at a fraction of the cost... and probably not much worse
>or even better...

Go ahead, make my day.

>Don't forget, teacher-unemployment is an artificial
>fenomenon, here in the UK  is linked with growing class-sizes
>and cuts in education budgets.

There is no teacher-unemployment in the US (as far as I know).

Gabor D. Farkas

In article >, 
says...
>
>>Subj:  No Subject
>>Date:  96-06-27 19:42:07 EDT
>>From:  
>>Reply-to:       (MEgorov)
>>To:     (Ferenc Novak)
>>
>>Subject: Re: "Marshall Plan"
>>X-Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
>>References: >
>>In-Reply-To: >
>>
>>COUNTRY: Hungary
>>CULTURE: NON EUROPEAN ( MONGOLIC TURKS)
>>RACE:NON EUROPEAN (URAL MONGOLIC)
>>RELIGION: Imposed(CHRISTIAN)
>>HISTORY: Mercenaries( by the will of god or ROME)
>>ECONOMY:Depending on Austria & Germany
>>POLICY: Commanded by Austro -GERMS
>>FUTURE: DEFINITELY UNKNOWN ( BY past and SWW2 REASONS)
>>
>>Note: I do not understand why the Hungarians are not proud of their
>>heritage?
>
>I received not one but three of these weird messages today.  Has anyone
else?
> Does anyone know whose sick joke this might be?  I don't intend to
answer to
>the sender.
>
>Ferenc


Yes, Ferenc.  I have got it also - and ignored it.  This guy is nuts and
it is not the first time he tries to provoke us.  I believe if everybody
ignores it, he will stop.

Agnes

In article >,
 says...
>
>I wonder if the problem is with the Hungary server or with Netcom.
>Everything is very quiet, today I received two pieces of mail sent on
June
>27. I also received today  the following message about a posting I sent
in
>on Friday:
>
>Return-Path: >
>From: Mail Delivery System >
>To: >
>Date:    Mon, 1 Jul 96 1:32:37 MET-1
>Subject: Delivery failure notification
>
>With reference to your message with the subject:
>   "Re: Corporate Citizen of the Week Award"
>
>One or more addresses in your message have failed with the following
>responses from the mail transport system:
>
>   User > not known at this site.
>
>Should you need assistance, please mail .
>
>I keep getting this message for every posting to Hungary (which I send
to
). Is everyone else getting them?
>
>Gabor D. Farkas
Yes, Gabor.  I got back from 10 days vacation and had at least 4 of these
on my e-mail.

Agnes

In article >,  says...
>
>We decided to have our holidays in Hungary during august. We have got a
>holiday house in the Matra mountains at Galyateto. Can anyone give me
some
>more information about the surroundings of this place.
>Thanks for any reactions

Beautiful place for hiking enthusiasts.  I still recommend you spend some
time in Budapest and surroundings - if you have never been in Hungary.

Agnes

My brother is interested in writing an article for a midwestern newspaper
on the bloody Olympic waterpolo match that took place between Hungary and
Russia in the
aftermath.

Would anybody know of anything written on this subject--English preferred,
but French, German or Italian acceptable.

 --
Ted Perlmutter
Center for European Studies     Phone (212) 998-3838
New York University             FAX   (212) 995-4188
715 Broadway, 3rd Floor
New York, NY 10003

Home: 212-721-1813

Internet address:  or 

We are a group of Vietnamese who are willing to learn how your people
liberated your country from the dictators in 1989.
Please forward your experience and/or any documents which we could learn
from.
Thank You!

On 1989 you could consult
LAWFUL REVOLUTION IN HUNGARY, 1989-94. ed. Bela K. Kiraly. New York: Atlantic,
distributed by Columbia UP, 1995.

Peter I. Hidas, MOntreal

Dear Friends:
We are a group of Vietnamese living in the United States.
We would like to learn how your country was liberated from the Communist
Dictatorship in 1989.  Could you please share with us your experience
and/or tell us where to get the related documents.
We would like to have the detail stories of the followings:
- How, where and when things were started?
- What had made the people felt confident to stand-up against the regime?
- What were the good and bad things happened as lessons to other
countries?
- How has your country been after the chance?  Has it been better, worse
or nothing changed?
Please share with us as much as you could. If it is possible please
introduce to us your respected activists whom we could contact for more
discussions related to this remarkable chapter of history.
Thank You and Have A Nice Day!
Sincerely Yours,
A Group of Vietnamese Freedom Activists

PS.  Please direct your response to our email address: 

In article >,
 says...

>        I received eight and he dumped about 40 identical messages on
>soc.culture.magyar. I already wrote to . We should also ask
>Hugh to remove MEgorov from the list of contributors because he is
>obviously up to no good.

One doesn't have to be a subscriber to blh to post here. I'm not on
the list and post via the totally public Usenet gateway with free
software available (downloaded from an Internet ftp site); i.e., I don't
receive blh postings via e-mail, I currently use WinVN Usenet newsreader
(BTW excellent for small capacity PCs like my 4MB RAM 386 laptop) I'm
supposing most contributors receive and post to this list via e-mail...
is this right?

Perhaps our aol "friend" posted via Usenet. (I received one sample
of his e-mail which could also have been sent via a Usenet newsreader.)

George

--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy **** NW London Computer Club **** ICPUG

I am submitting the following mail that - very curiously! - came without
a way to reply to it.

See what you can read into it.  BTW, any other recipients of the same
trash out there?

Please read my footnote at the end!!!!
Martha

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:30:51 -0400 (EDT)
From:     (Sender of message unknown)
To: 
Subject: judgment before reason, how human of you

>
>                      RE: DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHAT THIS IS?
>
>   From: "S. Bihari" >
>   Reply to: "S. Bihari"
>   Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 23:22:29 -0400
>   Newsgroups:
>          bit.listserv.hungary
>   Reply to: newsgroup(s)
>
>Ferenc,
>
>The same message came to me 9 times.  I replied to the individual with a
>warning.
>
>Additionally, I have filed a complaint with AOL as well as with Hugh.
>
>The world seems to be full of weirdos, but it looks like HUNGARY is
>having an overabundance of them.  This is just one example of it.  Some
>people get their kicks in a very strange fashion, I guess.
>
>Martha



        Good for you Martha -- sue the bastards.  When
        all else fails, read directions.  What message
        went to you nine times.  Are you subscribing
        to several (perhaps as many as nine bulletin
        boards) -- that is, if a person sends the same
        message to multiple bulletin boards, you will
        get one from each as a subscriber?

        Those bloody Hungarians, though, I just don't know.

        J.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------

All 9 had a different heading; the message was all the same.  ALL were
addressed to ME, PERSONALLY.  The vendetta is on; only I have no idea
what I did to elicit it.  Oh well; they are not going to ruffle my
feathers!  :)))))

You wrote:
>
>At 01:30 PM 7/2/96 +0100, Eva Durant wrote:

>>Don't forget, teacher-unemployment is an artificial
>>fenomenon, here in the UK  is linked with growing class-sizes
>>and cuts in education budgets.
>
>There is no teacher-unemployment in the US (as far as I know).
>
>Gabor D. Farkas
>

There is unemployment to a certain degree in every field, which is
natural.

For a while, unless my memory misleads me, there was an oversupply of
teachers after the babyboomer's children passed through the school
system in the late 70's and 80's, calling for fewer teachers, while our
colleges were still turning out new teachers. (Here in Westchester
several elementary and middle schools were sold off during this period,
most of them converted to apartment buildings.) This of course caused
higher than normal unemployment among teachers, until they found other,
non-teaching jobs in an otherwise growing economy.

Market economy is not perfect.  The only thing guaranteed to be worse,
however, is a centrally planned economy.  Unless the planning is done
by Communists in Moscow, in which case its the pits.

best wishes for a great 4th of July Barbecue,


Charlie Vamossy

On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, S or G Farkas wrote:

> At 01:30 PM 7/2/96 +0100, Eva Durant wrote:

> >Don't forget, teacher-unemployment is an artificial
> >fenomenon, here in the UK  is linked with growing class-sizes
> >and cuts in education budgets.
>
> There is no teacher-unemployment in the US (as far as I know).
>
> Gabor D. Farkas
>

But there is, Gabor.  Trained teachers are doing menial jobs; or holding
other positions.  That is the reason the public doesn't realize that they
are "unemployed."  How about the dozens of applicants for the same
position in just about any field or level?  Does that tell us anything?

The saddest thing is that for a single decent college teaching post there
are sometimes 200 or more applicants.  Most are OVERqualified.  (read =
they would need to be paid more than the college is willing or able to pay)

Martha

At 11:48 PM 7/2/96 -0400, Martha  wrote:

>> There is no teacher-unemployment in the US (as far as I know).
>>
>> Gabor D. Farkas
>>
>
>But there is, Gabor.  Trained teachers are doing menial jobs; or holding
>other positions.  That is the reason the public doesn't realize that they
>are "unemployed."  How about the dozens of applicants for the same
>position in just about any field or level?  Does that tell us anything?
>
>The saddest thing is that for a single decent college teaching post there
>are sometimes 200 or more applicants.  Most are OVERqualified.  (read =
>they would need to be paid more than the college is willing or able to pay)

And Charlie Vamossy wrote:

>There is unemployment to a certain degree in every field, which is
>natural.

I stand corrected. I based my statement on news reports about lack of math
teachers and science teachers. I was also speaking only about school
teachers, not college teachers.

However, if there is teacher-unemployment, than the artificially high
salaries are even less justified. They just encourage more people to choose
a career with no safe future (if there is such an animal).

Gabor D. Farkas

Prices of energy and bread were increased by 50-60% yesterday in Romania.
One liter of unleaded gas is now 900 lei ($1~3,500 lei).

Gabor D. Farkas

Charlie,

Of course, your assessment is right, particularly when you point at the
failures of the central planning.  My aim was to show the true picture
about teachers going into different fields, due to lack of positions.

A happy 4th of July to you and everyone on this side of the pond!

Martha