Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 388
Copyright (C) HIX
1995-08-05
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: 8/19 jubi.talalkozo (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
2 World Federation of Hungarians (MVSZ) (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
3 {Re:}^6 (mind)  62 sor     (cikkei)
4 {Re:}^6 - correction (mind)  4 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: teszt (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Cultural Genocide and Splendor (mind)  58 sor     (cikkei)
7 FHS (VII) : Uniatism in Transylvania (mind)  106 sor     (cikkei)
8 VIII : Sofronie (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Mihai Caragiu, 3rd! (mind)  116 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: 8/19 jubi.talalkozo (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Magyar posta
+ - World Federation of Hungarians (MVSZ) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Some readers may remember the letters posted on this list earlier this year
about the lack of information about the World Federation of Hungarians
(Magyarok Vilagszovetsege) in print or on the Internet. The MVSZ never
responded to these letters, but I have recently discovered that the
Hungary.com organization maintains a homepage for them. From the
Hungary.com site (http://www.hungary.com) one can access the complete text
of the latest issue of the Magyar Figyelo (Volume IV, No. 4). This is a
little known, very interesting and informative publication of the MVSZ. I
highly recommend it to everyone who can read Hungarian, and interested in
the MVSZ.

Barna Bozoki
+ - {Re:}^6 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Lorant Czaran > writes:

>> Instead, the only thing you drop here are your own feelings. That's
>> fine, but not an argument. One _cannot_ argue in this style, believe me.

>but I can find other tens of people
>that can argue like this, even if you would not accept!

This is, unfortunately true, tens of people `argue' like this, indeed.

>let's wait till the new Rector is elected, there are voices
>Mr. Marga is to liberal for that. If he remains, there is a hope, but if
>a person like Iustinian Petrescu is elected, whom I personally know and
>cannot respect, then you can forget all your ideas and statements about
>good will! That will be clearly the public declaration of the University
>staff's position!

Never heard of Dr. Iustinian Petrescu, so I cannot state _anything_ on this.
Indeed I heard about Dr. Ioan Marga, and I know he is one of the
few ones who is able to resist the provocations coming from _both_ sides, you
know :)

>And why not a Hungarian University, if
>you can agree that everybody is free to choose?

We can discuss hours in private on this. I just want to refer to a nice article
of David Wingrove which you can find at the WWW address

hhtp://www.halcyon.com.rompr/18david.html
under the heading "Whose Language? Whose Education ?"
I am too lazy to write it here :)
Eseentially there you can find resons for which
the Hungarian activist would do well to recognize that the future
is not to be bound within their narrow interests.

Of course I would be happy to see an Aromanian university (I am also a
a member of a minority, you know...). Fortunately, the truth is always
within you.



>By the way, if you say you worked in Cluj, I will find the name of that
>"angry" professor, with ERDELY, maybe you know him and will understand
>his "reaction"...this is not acceptable, anyway, especially when one
>deals with a foreign donation!

This is certainly not acceptable, although I don't know the full details.
However you might find more acceptable the threatening calls which an
 _outstanding_ romanian mathematician at BBU, which _never_ got involved
in politics, received when he was offered a leading position there.

All the best!
Have fun back home.

Mihai

         ==================================
        | Dr. Mihai Caragiu                |
        | Institute of Mathematics         |
        | Romanian Academy of Sciences     |
        | e-mail:  |
         ==================================
+ - {Re:}^6 - correction (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In the previous message one
should read Andrei Marga
instead of Ioan Marga as I
have written. Thanks.
+ - Re: teszt (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Teszt sikerult. Koszonom!  Deutsch Antal
+ - Re: Cultural Genocide and Splendor (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Wally Keeler wrote:

>> >To be as exact as possible the "Hungarians and Romanians" all of Romanian
>> >citizenship.

>> been imposed.  Ethnic/racial/family ties are the issue:  are you tied to
>> a Hungarian family and culture or a Rumanian family and culture.

>I am tied to neither, so it is certain that I have no ethnic bias in this
>tribal "dispute." You do.


You misunderstood.  In my statement I was not saying that specifically 'you'
are tied to a Hungarian family and culture or a Rumanian family and culture,
but rather that this is the issue in Erdely (Transylvania).

>> Rumanians are always looking for reason to spit on the Hungarians as the

>Who spits at who is childish, and history has proven that
>this sort of childishness has lethal consequences.

If this 'childishness has lethal consequences', it can hardly be called
childishness.  Throughout recent history it always seems to be the ones
who have the most to lose who try to downplay the justice of  righting
ancient wrongs.  It is easy for a thief and his supporters to argue that
it is not worth dragging out an unpleasant situation to determine justice
in a difficult conflict.  Hll say, "this conflict is silly.  Let's just
forget the whole thing, and be better neighbors in the future".  Ofcourse,
however, he gets to keep what he has stolen, so that we can put the
situation behind us and start over.  Well, the Isrealis didn't feel
obliged to forget about the Nazis after the war, and as a result they hunted
them for 50 years, and are still doing it today.  Who gets to decide which
justice is worth finding and which is better to surrender.  I'll be very happy
to agree that we should not bother finding justice when you have been wronged,
if that is what you want, but do not take it upon yourself to decide for
me whether I should seek justice when I have been wronged.  I am the only one
who can decide that.  You ofcourse do not have to help me if you chose not to.

>Just gotta score that point don't you. Just gotta set the record
>straight. Just gotta get those Romanians to understand the true facts.
>This is not important. What is important is the future, not the past. You

I'll be happy to forget that someone has stolen $20 from me, if you give
me $20 to make up for what I have lost.  Until then, I'll keep demanding
the return of my $20 from the thief.  If what I have lost is so very minor,
then you can offer to absorb the loss.  If you do not, then you have no
business telling me that I should forget about my loss.

Bill Cosby was right when he said about fights among siblings, that "parents
are not interested in justice.  They are interested in quiet".  The same
is true about the international community, and we can see it in the treaties
they backed in Bosnia.  The international community was happy to let the
Serbs have a full 50% of Bosnia in order to end the war.  Nevermind about
justice - let's just have some quiet.  Therefore, agreements approved by
the international community are meaningless, till they try to achieve
justice.

Paul Gelencser
+ - FHS (VII) : Uniatism in Transylvania (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

THE BEGINNINGS OF THE UNIATISM
                    =================================


                                 I


   As we get close to the end of the seventeenth century, the situation
in Transylvania becomes precarious. This is related to the fact that
Transylvania passed under direct Habsburg rule. Then, Calvinism speedily
found itself on to the defensive. Catholicism - now once more in the
ascendant in the Slovak districts of the Northern Hungary - set itself to
recover its lost ground in the land beyond the Forest. What more natural
than that the Jesuits, strong in the confidence of Leopold I and court circles
Vienna, should have turned their eyes to the Romanians as a useful instrument
of centralist and Catholicising tendencies ? They, like everyone else at that
period, regarded the masses as mere cannon-fodder in the spiritual war. They
therefore bent their efforts upon the hierarchy and clergy, to whom they had
many inducements to offer. Submission to the Holy See involved the acceptance
of
the four essential points - the papal supremacy, unleavened bread
(painea nedospita in liturghie), Purgatory and the Filioque* clause in the
Creed. Otherwise the existing liturgy and canon remained untouched, as also
the marriage of the clergy, the wearing of beards, the internal arrangements
of the churches, etc. What was really decisive, however, was that the
archpriests had lost their freedom of election to the metropolitan see under
Calvinist control, and welcomed the Union as a means of shacking off the
galling
Calvinist jurisdiction; that the union secured to the clergy who accepted it
equality of rights with the Roman clergy and therefore a vital rise in social
status, and exemption for them and their families from serfdom and feudal
dues. In the phrase of a witty Jesuit of that day, the Romanian
clergy was "not led by supernatural principles, but by temporary
necessities".
   In February 1697 the union was proposed to the Orthodox synod by the
Metropolitan Theophilus and unanimously accepted in principle, subject
for proper endowments and equality for the laymen of the new Church.


                                II


  The death of Theophilus during the summer of 1697 caused delay
and opened the door for disputes among the clergy, but his
successor Athanasius lost no time in resuming negotiations,
and the document of union was formally signed in October 1698.
  The final stage was reached at Alba Iulia, on 4 september 1700,
when no less than 54 archpriests and 1563 priests followed their
metropolitan's lead. The union was legalised by an imperial diploma
of Leopold I, issued on 16 February 1699, announcing that the
uniates were to enjoy the same Christian freedom "as the members
of the Latin rite". A further edict of 6 August was addressed
to the Romanians, assuring them that they were free to join any
recognised religion or to retain their existing status (the alleged
free choice was, however, a hollow farce, for the material
advantages of the Union were irresistible, human
nature being what it is, whereas the alternative of surrendering
to the Calvinists was not really an alternative at all).
That the Magyar outlook was by no means identical with the imperial is
shown by the grudging attitude of the Diet in its discussion on the
change of status due to union, and still more by the rescript issued
on 26 September 1699 by the Gubernium. This laid down that two
clergy should suffice for the largest Romanian communes, and one
for the smaller (an attempt to restrict to minimum the number of
persons exempted from serfdom). Also, that "as the Wallachs have
no good schools", their candidates for the priesthood are to be
instructed "in the school of that religion with which he wishes
to unite" and otherwise not be ordained (a last attempt to leave the
door open to Calvinist, as opposed to Roman, proselytism). Humiliating
as the methods employed to achieve it may have been, the Union proved to be
one of the most memorable events in the rise of Romanian nationality.


 ------------------------------------------
 Reference:  "A history of the Roumanians,
 from Roman times to the completion of unity"
 by R. W. Seton-Watson. Cambridge [Eng.], The University press, 1934.
 viii, 596 p. XVI pl.(port.,incl.front.)fold.map. 25 cm.


My footnote :

     APPENDIX - FILIOQUE
     ===================

*FILIOQUE is "the procession of the Holy Spirit from both the Father and the
Son".
This seems to be the subtlest doctrinary difference between Orthodox and
Roman Catholics. The original, Orthodox, formulation was that <the Holy Spirit
originates from the Father>. The main reason for which the Catholics
added the Filioque doctrine was to avoid the possibility of heretical
interpretation of the Creed (Father - essential, Son - secondary).
The Orthodox claim that this is a grave theological error, destroying the
paradoxical life (mystical unity) of the Trinity by introducing a "formal"
equality (which is a human, and not divine, category).


Mihai Caragiu


          ==================================
        | Dr. Mihai Caragiu                |
        | Institute of Mathematics         |
        | Romanian Academy of Sciences     |
        | e-mail:  |
         ==================================
+ - VIII : Sofronie (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

III.


While the effects of uniatism on the the rise of romanian nationality were
in general favorable, let's see what happened with the remaining romanians
residing in Transylvania. Seton-Watson describes some facts in his book...


=====

[...] Despite all handicaps the devotion of the common people to the ancient
faith
was truly touching: and the latent demand for an Orthodox bishop and freedom of
religion slowly became more vocal and was roused by the Uniate example. In
1759 a poor priest named Sofronie acquired a remarkable ascendancy
among the peasantry along the southwest frontier and brought many back to
Orthodoxy. When arrested by the authorities, he was forcibly released and then
guarded and kept in hiding by the peasantry employed in the royal mines in
Abrud. For a time they were in virtual revolt and openly declared that "the
power of the lords is at an end, it is we who are now the masters". Finally
General Buccow was sent to pacify them and win them over to enlistment, and
Sofronie was eventually captured by the aid of the soldiers. But it was
long ere the repugnance of the Orthodox peasantry could be overcome. In 1763
a petition was addressed in these terms from the district of Bistritz to
the Serbian bishop of Buda, Novakovic, whom the Government had allowed to make
a visit of enquiry -

"We are being ruined body and soul, we die without confession or
communion, like the beasts, and like sheep without a shepherd. If you will
not take pity on us and bring us aid an consolation, we shall not turn back
homewards, where arrest and punishment awaits us, but we shall go other lands,
where we can hold peacefully to our religion: for we are firmly resolved to
perish rather than accept the Union"



 ------------------------------------------
 Reference:  "A history of the Roumanians,
 from Roman times to the completion of unity"
 by R. W. Seton-Watson. Cambridge [Eng.], The University press, 1934.
 viii, 596 p. XVI pl.(port.,incl.front.)fold.map. 25 cm.
+ - Re: Mihai Caragiu, 3rd! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Lorant Czaran > writes:

> Sure, sure, here we go again :)

:-)

> I also know very well that University, you know... I _worked_ there,
> for some time and I managed to make a lot of friends there, both
> romanians and hungarians. You know, I even lived in Gheorgheni, Aleea
> Borsec. Trust me. Do you want more details :) ?

I am convinced! You see, I trust you, without concluding: "...just
personal feelings..."
It's good that you were there, and lived in Gheorgheni also, this only
mean that you must know something about coexistence, and I still think
you are very optimistic and trying to put your compatriots in a good
light, although only few of them, maybe 10-20% deserve that!
That's not enough!!!

> I gave just an example which doesn't fit your biased diagnosis, and
> I assure you that there are many others. In fact, _you_ are the one
> who is supposed to _prove_ the existence of discrimination regarding
> the hiring of hungarians at BBU. You know, like in a law court :)

We are not in a law court, and sorry I didn't registered all the
"details" during the last three years, for your "law court"! I must
repeat, maybe they are also feelings, but also experiences, not deniable!

> Instead, the only thing you drop here are your own feelings. That's
> fine, but not an argument. One _cannot_ argue in this style, believe me.

I'm not a mathematician (e.g. style); but I can find other tens of people
that can argue like this, even if you would not accept!

> HDUR's by any chance ?

I must disapoint you! No, I'm not HDUR's, and nor the other tens I spoke
about! You see, this is not our scope, we just want a University working
on the basis of personal values, not ethnic policies. And believe me,
there is one; let's wait till the new Rector is elected, there are voices
Mr. Marga is to liberal for that. If he remains, there is a hope, but if
a person like Iustinian Petrescu is elected, whom I personally know and
cannot respect, then you can forget all your ideas and statements about
good will! That will be clearly the public declaration of the University
staff's position!

> Do you want to suggest that the romanians _cannot_ be terminated by such
 orders

WHO will do that??? When???

> Or maybe that the fraction of `terminated  hungarians' is bigger ? Facts are
> _badly needed_ here...  You seem never wanting to provide them. Why ? Let's
> read:

Here we cannot provide facts, the groups are only existing the second
year, but let's see for how long? And why not a Hungarian University, if
you can agree that everybody is free to choose? OK, maybe they will be
not prepared for working in a Romanian environment or so, as many of you
are arguing, but that's their choice, isn't it? Let's give it to them!

> Understandable, very understandable. But this declared `fear'
> might also a good propagandistic technique, designed to :
> 1. To avoid to present facts which in fact are not available
> or
> 2. To put once again the romanians in a bad light (`they are hunting us')
> How do I know what the reality is ?

No, they are not hunting us yet! At least I hope so!!! AS about bad
light, everybody must decide how to judge this! You see, there are others
on this list arguing that assimilation is good. Well, maybe money and
living in a society without any responsabilities is the most important
for such persons. They will agree with you, maybe! THey will not consider
"the light as bad". I know some of them, who for example are keeping
secret their origin because of the eventual "reaction" of the society!
Their choice, but not mine!
As about reality, we will see how things are evolving, but you cannot
contradict my experiences, or my friends ones! And those are often
happening, regretfully!

> >YOU FORGOT THE NOSE UP HERE! :-)
> Why are you using here so intensively the caps-lock (or shift ?) keys :)
> You seem somewhat surprised. Why ?

Just a joke :-)

> How are the people thinking :) ?

That will be to much here, but maybe we can discuss about this sometime,
and you have also some experiences!

> I understand very well and, once again, I repeat, we are not
> adversaries. I am also a fan of the individual freedom, you know...
> And I am convinced that there is plenty of room for improvement in Romania.
> At least we agree in some respects, you see ?
> Jeez! I am even beginning to have fun discussing with you :)

I'm happy to read that! Maybe we will meet once and continue, because it
seems everybody has his own "strong" arguments, hardly to be "defeated",
so this can take hours, days, examples... like in the law court!
How much are you staying in the States?
By the way, if you say you worked in Cluj, I will find the name of that
"angry" professor, with ERDELY, maybe you know him and will understand
his "reaction"...this is not acceptable, anyway, especially when one
deals with a foreign donation! Can you explain why this attitude, in many
cases? Just because I'm curious to hear your version!
Best regards and have a nice stay there!

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Lorant Czaran            |       till August 1995:
                         |       Collegium Budapest
3400-Cluj, Romania       |       Szentharomsag u.2 sz.
                         |       1014-Budapest, Hungary
                         |       email: 
                         |       phone:+36-1-1561244; fax:+36-1-1759539
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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