Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 802
Copyright (C) HIX
1996-09-27
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Sophistry (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
2 Bela Bartok the "chauvinist (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Bela Bartok the "chauvinist (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Bela Bartok the "chauvinist (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Roasted peppers (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Sophistry (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Bela Bartok the "chauvinist (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
8 Bela Bartok (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Bela Bartok the "chauvinist (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: The 1700s (mind)  70 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Roasted peppers (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: *** HUNGARY *** #801 (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Buying Hungarian books (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Roasted peppers (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Bela Bartok the "chauvinist (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Buying Hungarian books (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
<snip>..
>I think the problem is one of "consciousness".  You either have it, or you
>don't.  And it has nothing to do with Stalin, your education level, or your
>grandmother.  Blaming Stalin, or anyone else for that matter, lets people
>off the hook too easily.  People are the way they are because they choose
>to be that way.  I think it's that simple.
<snip>..

Hmmm...for some people in some matters, perhaps. This gets back to the
old question of whether environmental or hereditary factors determine
an individual's psychology (concerning interpersonal social relationships).
People are pretty impressionable, especially when young (e.g., are most
criminals born as such?). The thing is that repressive societies hardly
encourage people to *grow*, even if there are glowing examples of
supposedly natural rebels (artists, writers, prophets, etc) who use
the very fact of difficult conditions to express themselves and soar
above the mediocre.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy ** Commodore=64...ICPUG ** NW London CC
+ - Bela Bartok the "chauvinist (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Judit Frigyes and Peter Laki wrote:

 > Bela Bartok was a Nationalist -> chauvinist -> antisemite


I want opinions from:

        Eva, Sam Stowe, Peter I. Hidas, Joe Szalai, Aniko, Jeliko,eorge
Szaszvari of Milky Way and all others.


Albert Albu
+ - Re: Bela Bartok the "chauvinist (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 wrote:
>Judit Frigyes and Peter Laki wrote:
>
> > Bela Bartok was a Nationalist -> chauvinist -> antisemite
>
>
>I want opinions from:
>
>       Eva, Sam Stowe, Peter I. Hidas, Joe Szalai, Aniko, Jeliko,eorge
>Szaszvari of Milky Way and all others.
>
>
>Albert Albu

Chauvanist, eh?.... Hmm... How about the Romanian Folk Dances (Roman nipi
tancok), Dance Suite (Tancszvit), Romanian Dance (Roman tanc), and the
countless pieces with Romanian, Ukranian, Slovakian, Bulgarian, Turkish
and Arabic-inspired themes?

Judging by the names of the Bartsk haters, they must be Magyar in name
only...

Regards

Peter Chong
+ - Re: Bela Bartok the "chauvinist (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:07 PM 9/25/96 -0500, Albert Albu wrote:
>Judit Frigyes and Peter Laki wrote:
>
> > Bela Bartok was a Nationalist -> chauvinist -> antisemite
>
>
>I want opinions from:
>
>        Eva, Sam Stowe, Peter I. Hidas, Joe Szalai, Aniko, Jeliko,eorge
>Szaszvari of Milky Way and all others.

        I can't. I read only one biography of Bartok and I have never done
any research on his life and believes. The only thing I read recently was
the following: Until recently his emigration to the United States was
portrayed as a statement against growing Nazism in Germany, in Hungary, and
in Europe. However, newer research suggests that his decision to leave
Hungary was personal and had nothing to do with politics.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Roasted peppers (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

S or G Farkas ) wrote:
: They had some interesting pepper roasting machines where they were
roasting
: up to four bushels of chili peppers at once ($10/bushel). It reminded me how
: my mother used to do it one at a time on the gas burner in the kitchen.

Very interesting. My wife and I went to Hungary last October on vacation.
While there we went to markets and bought varieties of beautiful sweet
red peppers from which I saved seed. Also went to a seed supplier in
Budapest and bought seed. Now I have a pepper garden here in Atlanta with
about twenty different varieties producing among a couple of small spaces
around the house. (We live in the mid-central old section of town.)

Varieties we have going include Pritamin, Kalosci, Karmen, Edes, Eros,
Mackskapiros and many others. We almost nightly roast a batch on the
cooktop or slice and quasi-burn them in a cast-iron skillet. There is
simply nothing better. It is a real luxury to whip up a pasta or rice
dish with six or seven different varieties all together.

Anybody know how to pronounce any of these names or have more information
on the pepper and paprika topic from Hungary.

Also, I was in San Francisco last week and went to a Saturday morn market
where a guy was using a home-built, hand-turned machine--much like one of
those things they use to mix up ballots or tickets for a drawing--to
roast beautiful large peppers.

If you can describe the roasters you saw last week I would like to hear
it. Gas fired?

Steve Tischer

fax:404-874-4169
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, 
(Andrew Rszsa) writes:

>I love you, man!
>
>Bandi

Attaboy! There's the spirit!
Sam Stowe

"Baby, will you eat snack crackers wearin'
that, uh, special outfit you bought?"
-- Southern Culture on the Skids, "Camel Walk"
+ - Re: Bela Bartok the "chauvinist (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Albert Albu - At 11:07 PM 9/25/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Judit Frigyes and Peter Laki wrote:
>
> > Bela Bartok was a Nationalist -> chauvinist -> antisemite
>
>I want opinions from:
>
>        Eva, Sam Stowe, Peter I. Hidas, Joe Szalai, Aniko, Jeliko,eorge
>Szaszvari of Milky Way and all others.
>
It is my understanding also, that Bart'ok moved to the US in 1940, to flee
the Nazi expansion.  If my memory serves correctly, he died in 1945.  I
adore his work - especially the Solo Sonata for Violin and Concerto No.2 for
Violin and Orchestra (this one I just recently received as a gift).  And,
since I have never had the pleasure of getting to know the gentleman, I am
afraid that I have no opinions to share with regards to his beliefs
personal, political or otherwise.  But thanks for the vote of confidence
Albert!  Btw - don't you find the above statement by Frigyes and Laki rather
on the subjective side?
Regards,
Aniko

>Albert Albu
>
>
+ - Bela Bartok (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Bela Bartok was one of the signatories to a protest letter of Hungarian
writers, artists and scientists who rejected the First Anti-Jewish Bill of
1938 and asked the churches, the members of parliament and various chambers
to vote against the Bill. (5 May 1938). The Bill passed.  In1939 a
Hungarian Nazi organizations, the Turul Veteran Association, declared Bela
Bartok a philo-Semite and condemned him as un-Hungarian.

Source: Laszlo Karsai, Ed. BEFOGADOK. IRASOK AN ANTISZEMITIZMUS ELLEN
1882-1993 [Accepters; Writings against Anti-Semitism]. Budapest, Aura,
1993.


Peter I. Hidas
Montreal
+ - Re: Bela Bartok the "chauvinist (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Not only Bela Bartok used and attributed his use of Slovak (as well as
other non-Magyar) folk songs, but also deliberately, conscientiously, and
carefully collected melodies and words from numerous regions.  He is
considered therefore one of the very first musical ethnologists of
European level, and he showed his common sense and sensitivity by
offering to publish his Slovak work at the Matica slovenska in Martin.
There had
been plenty of collectors in the 19th c. (Kollar, Plicka, etc), but Bartok's
work was more scientifically based and "modern" in keeping with his
dates and doubtless also his objective and tolerant mind/personality.

  THis was especially noticeable since he was working only a decade or two
after the millenial exhibitions and others at the turn of the century
(women's handiwork in Paris, etc) at which anything from the kingdom of
Hungary was presented as Magyar.  For this reason Slovak women collected
embroideries, dolls, other folk crafts, etc and exhibited in the Czech
pavilions where they were presented as from Slovakia (yes, and sometimes
as "Czechoslovak" but that was at least half a name of their own).

Doubtless it's important that Bartok was born and lived twelve years in
current Rumania and attended high school in Bratislava (1894-99), but his
musical interests were very broad any way (north Africa and Turkey caught
his ear too).  About his reason for leaving Europe for America, one can
imagine many reasons.  The Slovak Encyclopedia (of 1986--draw what
conclusions you wish) says the antipathy toward his modernism by the Horthy
governing class was occasioned by his membership in the "Musical
Directorate of the Magyar Republic Council of 1919" (wrong translation for
the brief power of Bela Kun?) but it appeared primarily in a campaign
against his ethnomusical research.  Because he worked so much on Rumania
he was accused of "antivlastinectva"  =  anti-patriotism? anti-nationalism?

I hope the question and demand for a response from selected people on
the group wasn't intended to raise the old charges against a wonderful
musician and scientist!   (If it was, count me out of any flame -- I'm
English and Welsh myself, love his music, and appreciate him as a
European any nation should be proud of.)

Norma Rudinsky
+ - Re: The 1700s (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva S. Balogh wrote:
>
> At 08:25 AM 9/23/96 PDT, Jeliko wrote:
>
<snip>
>
> >I do not feel that Hungarian culture is superior to any other, but I do not
> >suffer from an inferiority complex either,
>
>         Neither do I. But I have no difficulty to comprehend that Hungary
> was way behind western Europe all through its history and I don't blame the
> Habsburgs for it either.
>
>         Eva Balogh



I will take time and contradict all of your misinformation's. For the time I
take
issue only with your last statement. Because I am an architect I will
contradict you
on the fact that outside Italy only the Hungarian renaissance Architecture was
"al
antiqua". In Hungary  the renaissance architecture appears immediately and is
truly
renaissance opposed to the West where appears later and is only a mime applied
to
the gothic masonry techniques. Here is an example:

        In Hungary as in  Italy a column or a frame is sculpted from few pieces
,
  base
body and capitel, in a shop by artists.

        Western and rest of Europe the masonry was built in the field, stone on
 top of
stone and only after that is was sculpted by a carved, up there on a
scaffolding in
less than ideal conditions in driving rains and wind.


        Other food for thought;

                Mary of Hungary who educated the taste of Charles V and started
 with Her
collection what we now today as the Prado. That collection is what she salvaged
when
she abandoned Buda. Just analyze that collection and see how many of that work
is
unatributed misatributed or called school of.

                Venetian Geromlamo DiRuta wrought the first organ concerto and 
i
 t is
dedicated to the Prince of Transylvania. (I wonder what was in his head, was
the
Doge, the Emperor or the French King not good enough)


                The 17 century goldsmith stile and technique called modo-transi
l
 vano is
net superior to anything else of the time. (1900 Paris Expo)


to be continued



Albert Albu
+ - Re: Roasted peppers (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Aren't some contributors confusing roasting with drying ?

I have never heard about roasting peppers in Hungary, but the long cylinders
or curtains of strung-up peppers drying under the eaves are evident in
the late summer and autumn in the South of the country.

Even though kiln-drying of peppers for paprika powder is increasingly
widespread, it is still only drying.  Roasted peppers are not suitable
for paprika-powder making.

George Antony
+ - Re: *** HUNGARY *** #801 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Are Americans dumb?

A few years ago Frost interviewed Gore Vidal. Vidal was aked the above
question. Vidal's answer:
No, Americans are no dumber than anybody else. They are uneducated.

Karoly
+ - Re: Buying Hungarian books (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

As a matter of fact TYPOTEK a publishser in Budapest has an overall
computerized index of Hungarian Books in Print.

I have no ide how can you acces it through the net.
The phone is (36) 1 3250085.
Ask for Zsuzsa Votisky she is the mover of the system

Csaba Pleh

Csaba Pleh
Center for Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences
202 Junipero Serra Blvd Stanford, Ca. 94305
T.: (415)321-2052, Fax: ...1192 Home: (415)947-9641
+ - Re: Roasted peppers (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In response to several questions:

My mother used to roast the peppers as follows (I do it rarely the same way
on the barbecue): put a pepper in the fire and practically burn it on the
outside. Then peel the burned peel (very unpleasant job). The remainder is
the roasted pepper (su2lt paprika). One can eat it as is or put it in a
mixture of salad dressing, similar to the one used in the cucumber salad
(water, vinegar, sugar).

Obviously this is not the process of obtaining the paprika powder.

The machines in Pueblo, Colorado looked like this: large (about 3-4ft in
diameter) drums with holes all over and a door where the peppers are put in
and taken out. The drums are turned by small motors. On the side, parallel
with the drum there is a long propane burner. Under the drum there is
slanted stainless steel piece, that is wide at the top and narrow enough at
the bottom to fit in a large plastic bag. The process is as follows:
-they put four bushels of peppers (of your choice) in the barrel
-start the barrel motor so it turns
-hose it down with water
-start the fire
-when done (and several times in between) hose it down again, this washes
away the peel
-stop the fire and the motor
-empty the roasted peppers onto the stainless steel piece from where it
slides into a plastic bag, held at the bottom.

Done. Very good, although some of it very hot.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Bela Bartok the "chauvinist (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 says...
>Albert Albu - At 11:07 PM 9/25/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>Judit Frigyes and Peter Laki wrote:
>> > Bela Bartok was a Nationalist -> chauvinist -> antisemite
>>I want opinions from:
>>        Eva, Sam Stowe, Peter I. Hidas, Joe Szalai, Aniko, Jeliko,eorge
>>Szaszvari of Milky Way and all others.

Nothing that I've ever heard or read supports the above alleged
defamation of Bartok; rather the contrary. Apparently, he had his
difficulties in life (like many others) and tended not to suffer
hypocrites or fools gladly. He lived to a very strict code of
personal morality (reflected somewhat in his music).

>It is my understanding also, that Bart'ok moved to the US in 1940, to flee
>the Nazi expansion.  If my memory serves correctly, he died in 1945.  I
>adore his work - especially the Solo Sonata for Violin and Concerto No.2
>for Violin and Orchestra (this one I just recently received as a gift).
>And, since I have never had the pleasure of getting to know the gentleman,
>I am afraid that I have no opinions to share with regards to his beliefs
>personal, political or otherwise.  But thanks for the vote of confidence
>Albert!  Btw - don't you find the above statement by Frigyes and Laki
>rather on the subjective side?

My favourites are the *Concerto for Orchestra* (especially the old
Kubelik interpretation, a case of love at first hearing) and the *Piano
Concerto Nr2* (of course, the famous Geza Anda and Ferenc Fricsay
rendering! I first heard this piece live at the Proms many moons ago,
played by Anda! A revelation!); I'm still discovering a lot of Bartok's
stuff.. (my foremost musical interest is JS Bach) ..need to get that
long promised CD player...

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy ** Commodore=64...ICPUG ** NW London CC
+ - Re: Buying Hungarian books (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

You should try to contact the Irok Boltja Book Store. This is one of the best
book shops in Budapest. I talked to one of the managers (Mr. Jozsef Markus),
and he said it is possible to negotiate a deal. It is a problem that no
overall lists exist on the books published in Hungary, but they can put
together an offer time to time.
The manager said the best way to contact them is to send a fax to the
following number:
+36(1)342-4311
The directorUs name is: Mr. Robert Herman

I hope this can help you.

Best regards

Bela Dajka
***********************************************
Posted via MH's First Class UUCP Gateway
***********************************************

AGYKONTROLL ALLAT AUTO AZSIA BUDAPEST CODER DOSZ FELVIDEK FILM FILOZOFIA FORUM GURU HANG HIPHOP HIRDETES HIRMONDO HIXDVD HUDOM HUNGARY JATEK KEP KONYHA KONYV KORNYESZ KUKKER KULTURA LINUX MAGELLAN MAHAL MOBIL MOKA MOZAIK NARANCS NARANCS1 NY NYELV OTTHON OTTHONKA PARA RANDI REJTVENY SCM SPORT SZABAD SZALON TANC TIPP TUDOMANY UK UTAZAS UTLEVEL VITA WEBMESTER WINDOWS