Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 992
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-05-09
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Peddling Snake Oil (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
2 HL-Action: write President of ICJ (mind)  82 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Mormons (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Peddling Snake Oil (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: church growth in Hungary (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: church growth in Hungary (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: church growth in Hungary (mind)  77 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: missing posts (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Mormons (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: missing posts (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Airraids was NYTimes on NATO (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Mormons (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Mormons (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Peddling Snake Oil (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>IMHO, the question of identity is of overwhelming importance for the
>development of a personality. Whether secular or religious education,
>both can be tolerant or intolerant. There are tolerant atheists, catho-
>lics, jews, protestants and what you have. And they are the minority.
>And there are intolerant atheists, catholics, jews, protestants and what
>you have. The majority.
>
>And, of course, indeed, we can4t start all over...
>Take care
>Miklos

I fully agree.  But with us the problem was not the Canadian/Hungarian
identity, but the Jewish/non-Jewish identity.  And yes, the grandchildren
have no identity problems anywhere.

Agnes
+ - HL-Action: write President of ICJ (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   normal

Background:
  Hungary's position in the Danube lawsuit at the International Court
of Justice in The Hague is very promising. However, even if the court
rules in favour for the environment it is possible that the Slovak
government does not accept the verdict.
  It would be useful if the World Court threatens with UN sanctions in
case of non-compliance, since this would force Slovakia to respect the
decision of the court.

What to do:
  Please ask the president of the International Court of Justice, Mr.
Schwebel, to incude a recommendation for United Nations sanctions in
case of non-compliance. Feel free to use the attached form letter.
Note that Schwebel will only take notice if he receives numerous
letters.
  Unfortunately we do not have the e-mail address. Please
do not hesitate to send him a fax or a snail mail.  PLEASE
ACT!! ASK YOUR FRIENDS TO JOIN YOUR REQUEST!!
  Fax number:  ++31-70-3649-928

*************************************************************

<date>

The Honorable Stephen Schwebel
President of the International Court of Justice
Carnegieplein 2, 2517 KJ,
Den Haag
The Netherlands
(FAX:  011-31-70-3649-928)

RE:  First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Mr. President:

Congratulations on your well-deserved appointment as the new
President of the International Court of Justice.  During your tenure
you will set new precedents in many areas of international law,
including the much neglected area of international protection for the
environment.

This year, for the first time in history, your Court will decide on an
environmental lawsuit concerning the Danube. The precedent you set
will affect all humankind.  In ruling on the dispute between Hungary
and Slovakia, you and your fellow judges can establish that rivers,
forests, and oceans are not the sole properties of nations, and that
national governments do not have the right to destroy the planet's
unique ecosystems, even if these natural treasures are within their
borders..

Mr. President. Your Court has already set a precedent, when it
accepted the Memorial of the international NGOs. You have established
a second precedent by visiting the Danube wetlands during the first
week of April. You have seen that the ecosystem of the Szigetkoz is
dying due to the loss of groundwater, caused by the rerouting of the
Danube. This region used to supply the Danube with the oxygen needed
to digest the organic wastes. Now the "lung" of the river has been cut
out and the dammed up river has been turned into an open sewer.
Shipping has suffered because of flimsy construction and because the
dam can not handle ice. In addition, half of the populations of
Dobrohost, Vojka, and Bodiky have already fled because of their
isolation and because the physical danger they face.

Dear Mr. President. You are fully aware of the above and it is
certainly not our intention to belabor the obvious or to try to
influence your decision. What we are concerned about is not the
ruling you will make, but the enforcement of that ruling. If in the
fall you rule that the Danube must be returned into its natural
riverbed, that ruling might not be carried out, if not backed by
sanctions. Therefore, Mr. President, we would respectfully suggest
that you consider setting yet an other precedent by including in your
ruling a recommendation for United Nations sanctions in case of
non-compliance.

Respectfully,

<Your name, title and address>
+ - Re: Mormons (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:11 PM 5/9/97 GMT, Kristof wrote:

>Joe Szalai wrote:
>
>>Yea, sort of.  I guess you could also say it's like "circumcision before
>>castration".
>
>Which, if true, would make one wonder about the Utah birthrates.

In a world plagued by overpopulation, diminishing resources, and pollution,
I wouldn'd brag about a growing birthrate.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Peddling Snake Oil (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> According to them, the percentage of emmigrants with psychosomatic
> problems didn4t deviate significantly from the average. For their child-
> ren, the second generation, the deviation was significant. The third
> generation was average again in this respect. The hypothesis was that

I think the problems should be associated with the fact,
that new immigrants are usually belong to the poorest of
the land. Native people in the same social
status have the same mental stress and illness.


>
> IMHO, the question of identity is of overwhelming importance for the
> development of a personality. Whether secular or religious education,
> both can be tolerant or intolerant. There are tolerant atheists, catho-
> lics, jews, protestants and what you have. And they are the minority.
> And there are intolerant atheists, catholics, jews, protestants and what
> you have. The majority.
>

I think this is a myth. The problem is a general alienation
of people in societies that are more and more devoid of general human
values such as cooperation and care.  Belonging exclusively to a group -
whether on ethnic/religious/common interest ground, is a poor
substitute to belonging to society as a whole and a short-term comfort
for an individual that can lead into
further disintegration of humanity.

Eva D

> Take care
> Miklos
+ - Re: church growth in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> For me, setting the conditions for the possibility of the evolution
> by a Beeing - you may call him God. There were people who didn4t
> dare to use a name for it/her/him - would be a much greater miracle
> than just creating man from clay, independently of what "prophets",
> theologists, and other speculators ( in the narrow sense ) made of it.
>

I use the Occam razor - all is simpler without the nameless thingy.
Just imagine all the complications, if there are wastly different
life-forms on other planets.



>
> As far as truth is concerned, see wisdom, ages old, e.g. Socrates ( as
> reported by Plato ). And beware of people possessing The Truth! But I
> have no problem with somebody having a Faith.
>
> Miklos
>

Who'd deny that human society evolved through the intelligence
and imagination of countless millions of the past since homo-sapiens
emerged.
You don't make sense; those with Faith are adamant, that they
possess the one and only Truth.

Eva D
+ - Re: church growth in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Please, dear lady, don't misunderstand me.  I am not arguing that
> evolution is false, or that there is no evidence for it.  I am arguing
> that if you tell someone who has never heard of it that, in defiance of
> the law of entropy, life on earth began as one-celled muck and evolved
> into ostriches, he will try to have you restrained.  That is all.  By
> comparison, a God who performs miracles according to his will and pleasure
> does not sound any crazier.  It is, fortunately, not how plausible a thing
> sounds that determines its truth.  But that is a sword that cuts both
> ways.
>
> Kristof
>

Dear gentleman, I think, that the newcomer is more likely to accept
evidence than fairytales. No, our opinion definitely has no influence
on reality. However, reality leaves clues, luckily for some,
who are curious enough to find them, and lucky for the rest of us,
using the practical applications - very credible evidence, not just
plausable.

+ - Re: church growth in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

MDtoCEO wrote:
>
> Eva Durant writes:
> >> Having actually conversed with such people, I'll field this one.  Yes,
> it
> >> sounds nuts.  To everyone.  Lourdes sounds nuts.  The Virgin Mary
> >> appearing in the grass in Poland sounds nuts.  Heck, evolution sounds
> like
> >> the craziest thing anyone ever heard of.  Truth is nuts, lots of the
> time.
> >> Fiction is much more plausible.
> >>
>
> >Perhaps this thing I've heard about science education in the US
> >is true.     If you equate the physical evidence of evolution
> >with only urban-legend status of miracles and give consideration to
> >the idea of a few thousands years old Earth as per the Bible,
> >than there are serious problems, indeed.
>
> >If there is a lot of evidence for a theory, than it is accepted as
> >the best approximation of reality.  This method of thinking helped people
> to
> >put a lot of theory into practice, and allow us to take granted a lot
> >of what we've got and makes us optimistic to achieve more.


Lok at this :

> >Reality won't go away when you stop believing in it.
> >Keep your mind open by all means, but don't let your brain drop out.

and keep in mind.

> >Yes, people haven't been able to create anything as amazing as the
> >material world that they are trying to comprehend, with forever improving
> >grasp. And yes, it all exists and yes it has no bearing on  the
> >appearence of a self-conscious mass of molecules.
> >and above mentioned entities can be happy and moral without being
> >ruled by gods.
> >Sorry - but this point of view is not aired very often these days,
> >and our world is not better for it.
>
> 
>
> Please, dear lady, don't misunderstand me.  I am not arguing that
> evolution is false, or that there is no evidence for it.  I am arguing
> that if you tell someone who has never heard of it that, in defiance of
> the law of entropy,

Careful, careful MDtoCEO!!! Enthropy <> information was - and is -
frequently misunderstood, misinterpreted - even by scientist having
difficulties with + or - signs!!

life on earth began as one-celled muck and evolved
> into ostriches, he will try to have you restrained.  That is all.  By
> comparison, a God who performs miracles

For me, setting the conditions for the possibility of the evolution
by a Beeing - you may call him God. There were people who didn4t
dare to use a name for it/her/him - would be a much greater miracle
than just creating man from clay, independently of what "prophets",
theologists, and other speculators ( in the narrow sense ) made of it.

> according to his will and pleasure
> does not sound any crazier.  It is, fortunately, not how plausible a thing
> sounds that determines its truth.

As far as truth is concerned, see wisdom, ages old, e.g. Socrates ( as
reported by Plato ). And beware of people possessing The Truth! But I
have no problem with somebody having a Faith.

Miklos

>  But that is a sword that cuts both
> ways.
>
> Kristof
+ - Re: missing posts (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gabor Fencsik wrote:
>
> On Thu, 8 May 1997, MDtoCEO wrote:
>
> > Governor Lilburn Boggs had earlier instituted an extermination order which
> > waived the criminal offense for killing a Mormon.  My recollection is --
> > and this may not be accurate -- that that order is still on the books,
> > along with some laws making it illegal to have sex on the second floor of
> > a building, or some such nonsense.
>
> Having once taken an oath of allegiance to the state of Illinois, pledging
> to defend its Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic, I must
> take strong exception to calling the law banning second-floor sex "some
> such nonsense".  It is high time that something be done about second-floor
> sex and similar perverse practices.  You have to draw the line somewhere.
> If you let them get away with second floor sex, then there is no telling
> where they will stop.  I say it's time for someone to take a stand on
> this before it's too late.

HEAR! HEAR! HEAR! Ye! Ye! Ye!

>
> > In addition, when I call up the newsgroup list, it tells me I have so
> > many unread messages, but when I look at the messages, I invariably
> > find fewer listed than the list indicated.  What is up?
>
> Some newsreaders have a configuration option to set the maximum number
> of articles to be downloaded at a time.  If the number of unread articles
> is greater than this, then you will get a truncated view of the newsgroup.
> Your mission is to find this configuration parameter and change it.
>
> -----
> Gabor Fencsik
+ - Re: Mormons (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:10 PM 5/9/97 -0400, Uncle Joe wrote:
>At 03:11 PM 5/9/97 GMT, Kristof wrote:
<snip snip>
>>Which, if true, would make one wonder about the Utah birthrates.
>
>In a world plagued by overpopulation, diminishing resources, and pollution,
>I wouldn'd brag about a growing birthrate.
>
>Joe Szalai

Sounded like a wry comment to me, not a boast, Joe.

BTW, I have been enjoying the recent comments on these threads of the two
Gabors (Fencsik and Farkas, not Eva and Zsa Zsa) very much.

TTFN :-))

Johanne/Janka

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: missing posts (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
 (MDtoCEO) writes:

>Janos --
>
>The same thing is happening to me.  Using some posts, which are replies
to
>posts I haven't seen, I can sort of reconstruct.  But I'm definitely
>missing some messages.  How do we fix this?
>
>Kristof
>
>

Kristof, you and I are at the mercy of the AOL USEnet gateway. That means
periodically we don't get anything for a couple of days (usually no more
than three or four) followed by a day or two of the same posts we'd
already gotten before the interruption being repeated as many as three
times in succession. And even then, we still don't ever get the posts from
the period when nothing was coming through the gateway. I've written
complaints to the AOL Tech people about this, but all they do is send me
canned replies thanking me for my inquiry, but saying they regret to
inform me that they can't currently offer the particular feature I
requested.
Sam Stowe

"That boy, Frank -- he lives inside
his own heart. That's an awful big
place to live in..."
-- Karl Childers
+ - Re: Airraids was NYTimes on NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  (George
Szaszvari) writes:

>
>Sam
>
>Wouldn't USAF operational archives "over there" have all this? I'd
>be interested in learning some specifics about that too, since much
>of my childhood memory concerns non-stop and totally depressing
>recollections of *American bombings* and *Russian soldiers*.
>
>--
>George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
>Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * The Commodore64 Lives! www.cmdweb.com
>
>

Yeah, but I gotta figure out where to find them. A museum just opened in
Savannah, Georgia, dedicated to the air war in Europe. I wonder if they'd
have copies of the archival records.
Sam Stowe

"That boy, Frank -- he lives inside
his own heart. That's an awful big
place to live in..."
-- Karl Childers
+ - Re: Mormons (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Gabor-
As I think about it, I may have given you an incomplete answer.  You may
have noticed that we don't go to our temples on Sundays.  We have
meetinghouses to which everyone is invited whenever there are worship
services.  The temples, though, are reserved for the faithful, as I
described.  To use the Solomon's Temple analogy further, it would be the
difference between synagogues and the temple, the first being meant for
worship and instruction for all, the latter being for holy rites not meant
to be performed except for certain individuals.

Sorry if that was confusing.

Kristof
+ - Re: Mormons (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai wrote:

>Yea, sort of.  I guess you could also say it's like "circumcision before
>castration".

Which, if true, would make one wonder about the Utah birthrates.

Kristof

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