Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 146
Copyright (C) HIX
1994-11-26
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Medical care in Hungary (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Illegal Immigration (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Medical care in Hungary (mind)  49 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Import/export (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Medical care in Hungary (mind)  85 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Illegal Immigration (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Illegal Immigration (was) (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Illegal Immigration (was) (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
9 In my dream I was 2 Zolis and played each other ;-) (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
10 Chiroprators in Hungary (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
11 ONLINE ORSZAGHAZ (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Medical care in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> what is the average life expectancy in hungary and how does it compare to
> other european countries?
>
> d.a.

Someone hopefully will send you the data, it is dreadfully bad,
especially for males aged 40 -50. They were dropping like flies
in the village (1983-87), but medical care is not a fundamental
factor, my impression is:
1.  2+ jobs to gain the bare necessities of home/food.
    (Also consequence: no harmony/understanding in the family)
2.  Unhealthy diet (pork/porkfat - however nice it is)
3.  Smoking and drinking


+ - Re: Illegal Immigration (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>
> --Human rights are matters of law in this country.  All presidents
> talk a lot, but their words are not law.  I repeat, nothing in
> American law gives anyone the right to a living, only the opportunity.

My point was, that just becouse something is not spelt out in a
constitution, doesn't mean is not a human right.


> it does say that whatever the cause, the most likely place to find
> a helping hand is at the end of one's own arm.  America was seen
> by us immigrants as the land of oppotunity, not the land of success
> guaranteed by a benevolent and well-meaning government.
>

It gives the message to a large number of people, that it is their
own fault if they cannot get out the vicious circle of poverty/
bad health/unemployment/bad education.


> --I note with interest that Tony Blair seems to have become a moderate
> Republican and that the Labour party is slowly beginning to figure things
> out.  I have told my rowdy friends in Nottingham and Newcastle that I
> am almost persuaded that I would vote Labour next time, since they
> seem to have given up on that silly socialist nonsense that Michael
> Foot and his ilk used to preach.  I note that Blair's speeches are
> now being written by Miliband's sons.  See, there is a God.
>

What is the point in having 3 conservative parties? One is too much
as far as I'm concerned.

>
> I just hate to use those damned smileys.
>

I thought it was obligatory  to point out where to laugh
in writing as well as on TV overthere.  8-(

+ - Re: Medical care in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

You said,

> > what is the average life expectancy in hungary and how does it compare to
> > other european countries?
> >
> > d.a.
>
> Someone hopefully will send you the data, it is dreadfully bad,
> especially for males aged 40 -50. They were dropping like flies
> in the village (1983-87), but medical care is not a fundamental
> factor, my impression is:
> 1.  2+ jobs to gain the bare necessities of home/food.
>     (Also consequence: no harmony/understanding in the family)
> 2.  Unhealthy diet (pork/porkfat - however nice it is)
> 3.  Smoking and drinking
>

To add specific data to this :
Life expectancy at birth in years

Year    Men     Women
1960    65.9      70.1
1970    66.3      72.1
1980    65.5      72.7
1985    65.1      73.1
1987    65.7      73.7
1989    65.4      73.8
1991    65.0      73.8
1992    64.6      73.7

Source: Table 2.35, Statistical Yearbook 1992 (1993)
KSH, Budapest.

Compared to other European countries this is very low.
For example and according to Eurostat, for men in EU12 in
1990 it was 72.7 and for women 79.3.
More specifically (for 1990):

                              Male    Female
Denmark               72.0       77.7
Germany               72.6       79.0
UK                         72.9       78.5
France                   72.8       81.0

If you wish to pursue this further I would refer to Eurostat or
United nations statistical series.
Hope this is helpful.

Tony Maltby
+ - Re: Import/export (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Take care - there are thousands of businesses in Hungary now
dealing with second hand cloths from the West - and seems often better
quality second hand cloths than here, I tell you!
I have suspicions that some of it is from charity donations.
I will forward your message.
As for antiques - lots of new money about, more possibility
I think.




>
> Hi, I have an idea about importing & exporting items. I would like to
> contact "regular people" just looking to supplement their income. My idea
> entails secondhand items that I would obtain here in the States & trade &
> sell to small businessman and/or expatriates in Hungary/eastern europe.  Any
> ideas on how to reach interested parties??  I own a small second-hand and
> antique store.  I frequent fleamarkets and auctions, etc.  I think this
> could be a viable enterprise, but I am not sure where to start.
> Any help would be appreciated
>                 Joseph  
+ - Re: Medical care in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>>
>> what is the average life expectancy in hungary and how does it compare to
>> other european countries?
>>
>> d.a.
>
Eva Durant replied on 25 November:

>Someone hopefully will send you the data, it is dreadfully bad,
>especially for males aged 40 -50. They were dropping like flies
>in the village (1983-87), but medical care is not a fundamental
>factor, my impression is:
>1.  2+ jobs to gain the bare necessities of home/food.
>    (Also consequence: no harmony/understanding in the family)
>2.  Unhealthy diet (pork/porkfat - however nice it is)
>3.  Smoking and drinking
>
--The last figures I have are for 1993, except for the U. S. for which
the figure below is from 1991.  We seem to be behind in our counting
of most vital statistics by about two years.

Country          Death       Life
                 rate      Expectancy

Austria          10.4       76.4
Belgium          10.3       76.7
Bulgaria         11.5       72.8
Czech Republic   11.4       72.6
Denmark          11.4       75.5
Finland           9.9       75.7
France            9.3       78.0
Germany          11.0       76.1
Greece            9.4       77.5
HUNGARY          13.0       70.9
Italy             9.7       77.4
Netherlands       8.5       77.6
Poland            9.6       72.2
Romania          10.2       71.3
Russia           11.3       68.7
Slovakia          9.5       72.4
Spain             8.8       77.5
Sweden           11.0       78.1
Switzerland       9.2       78.0
Ukraine          12.5       69.9
United Kingdom   10.9       76.5

And just for comparative purposes:

Australia         7.4       77.4
Canada            7.4       78.0
Japan             7.2       79.2
U.S.              8.5       75.7

Hungary's death rates from ischemic heart disease is 240 per
100,000, second highest in Europe (exceeded only by Finland
at 243.2).  As one would epect, the death rate from strokes
is high, too, but not the highest.  Hungary has the highest
death rates from lung cancer among those European countries
for which I have figures.  It also has a high death rate from
cancers of the stomach, although the death rate from breast
cancer is on a par with Germany, Australia, and the U.S.
Death rates from bronchiitis, emphysema, and chronic liver
disease are the highest in Europe.  The suicide rate is
38.2, which appears to be the highest in Europe outside the
former Soviet Union.  More people commit suicide in Hungary
in a given year than die of heart disease in Japan (37.9).
These are all 1991 figures.

Eva Durant is right in the main.  Death rates and life expectancy
are affected more by heredity, life style, and environmental factors
than by the level of medical care.  The level of public health
(clean water, safe sewage systems, mass innoculations, pure food
supply, etc.) is a very large environmental factor.  Life style and
environmental factors are, of course, related in large part to the
general economic conditions in the country and region.

Health care expenditures are highest in the U.S. at 13.4% of
Gross Domestic Product (GDR).  Canada spends 10%, France 9.1%,
and Finland 8.9%.  The lowest in Europe (of those countries for
which I have numbers) is the U.K. at 6.6%.  Sorry, I don't have
it for Hungary.  These are 1991 figures.  Belgium, Canada, Finland,
and Norway spend the largest portion of the health care "dollar"
on public health.

>Charles
+ - Re: Illegal Immigration (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 25 Nov 1994 09:15:09 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>>
>My point was, that just becouse something is not spelt out in a
>constitution, doesn't mean is not a human right.
>
--You may argue that there is a moral right, but not that there
is a legal right.  The original post (not yours) argued that citizenship
conferred a legal right.  It does not.  Not here.  It may do elsewhere.

>It gives the message to a large number of people, that it is their
>own fault if they cannot get out the vicious circle of poverty/
>bad health/unemployment/bad education.
>
--I am familiar with Ryan's book on "blaming the victim."  And I
stipulated that structural economic factors were important.  I
didn't use the word "fault" at any point.  What I was driving at,
whatever the cause of poverty, bad health, unemployment and bad
education, people themselves have to act in their own interests
rather than expect much from government as an automatic benevolent
force.  Both the civil rights movement and the feminist movement
came about because government wasn't doing a benevolent job and
had to be forced into change.  Government tends to exist primarily
to perpetuate itself.

>What is the point in having 3 conservative parties? One is too much
>as far as I'm concerned.

--You should meet my good friend Robert Page at Nottingham University.
He's a friend of Bill Lomax's, by the way.  Page would agree with
you absolutely.  He thinks that Labour has sold out its principles
simply to get votes.  I'm waiting for Lady Thatcher to get up on
her hind legs and raise the question of whether or not a tiger
could really change its stripes.  My own favorite for head of the
Labour Party was Margaret Beckett, but I didn't get a vote.  I saw
her ask John Major three questions during Question Time, and by
the time she was done, he was sweating and spluttering.  When she
was campaigning for Leader, she said that one advantage she had over
her two opponents was that she would give the Tories the opportunity
to shout, "Maggie, out!" for a change.  I liked that.
>
>I thought it was obligatory  to point out where to laugh
>in writing as well as on TV overthere.

--Your superior British chauvinistic attitude will be overlooked.  Some
of us over here understand irony and satire without an instruction book.
Artemis Ward, the 19th century American humorist, found that his readers
didn't always know when he was saying something for effect and when he
was serious.  He used to insert the word (goak) when appropriate.  I've
thought of doing something like, but I won't use smileys.

Charles
+ - Re: Illegal Immigration (was) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> >
> --You may argue that there is a moral right, but not that there
> is a legal right.  The original post (not yours) argued that citizenship
> conferred a legal right.  It does not.  Not here.  It may do elsewhere.
>

I don't think legal rights were mentioned, and I - been a Hungarian
don't take legal/burocratic things that seriously


> rather than expect much from government as an automatic benevolent
> force.  Both the civil rights movement and the feminist movement
> came about because government wasn't doing a benevolent job and
> had to be forced into change.  Government tends to exist primarily
> to perpetuate itself.

So you ARE waiting for revolution. Good.

>
> could really change its stripes.  My own favorite for head of the
> Labour Party was Margaret Beckett, but I didn't get a vote.  I saw

Doesn't matter which creep it is - they don't have any idea except
perhaps their pay-packets to be enthusiastic about.

>
> --Your superior British chauvinistic attitude will be overlooked.

Yes I suppose, but British?? My hero is Bill Hicks. He was American
and he new his people to be challenged in the sarcasm/irony area...

+ - Re: Illegal Immigration (was) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 25 Nov 1994 16:37:28 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>>
>
>I don't think legal rights were mentioned, and I - been a Hungarian
>don't take legal/burocratic things that seriously
>
--You didn't mention legal rights, but the original poster argued that
the right to have a living was conferred by citizenship.  The only
rights that matter a damn are those that are enforceable somehow, not
the ones that are simply declared.  We in American often confuse legal
rights with privileges or wants.
>
>So you ARE waiting for revolution. Good.
>
--Not as I understand you to mean it.  I have no faith in revolution.
Look what it produced in Russia in 1917 and Hungary in 1918.  Generally, a
different bunch of thugs takes control.  I do believe in political
processes, though, and these involve changing attitudes as well as
behavior.  I am guilty also in believing in enlightened self-interest
as the basis of the state, but I'm not very hot on ideology.

>Doesn't matter which creep it is - they don't have any idea except
>perhaps their pay-packets to be enthusiastic about.
>
--Sure glad that you're not a bitter person.

>> --Your superior British chauvinistic attitude will be overlooked.
>
>Yes I suppose, but British?? My hero is Bill Hicks. He was American
>and he new his people to be challenged in the sarcasm/irony area...

--Who is Bill Hicks?  And I love your new PC term:  the ironically
challenged.

Charles
+ - In my dream I was 2 Zolis and played each other ;-) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Jeliko misattributes (Wed Nov 23 12:43:51 EST 1994 HUNGARY #144):

> Zoli Fekete quotes and writes:

 As a point of fact: I do neither ;-(.

-- Zoli , keeper of hungarian-faq
        whose otherwise numerous adressess do *not* include 
+ - Chiroprators in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

My daugther lives with a family in southern Hungary - the three kids
suffer from Scoliosis (curvature of the spine) - the son who is 16 is
about to undergo an operation to put a rod alongside his spine to halt
the curvature - if the younger kids (14 & 9) don't get assistance in the
future, they may end up with the same operation - it takes approximately
6-12 months to recover from the operation and is extremely painful -
anyway, I have been consulting a chiroprator in the US about possibly
bringing the kids here for several months to get treatment to help
straigthen the spine and strengthen the muscles as well - have seen posts
here about hospitals in Hungary - didn't know if there are any certified
Chiropractors in Hungary that could either treat the kids instead or
treat them after they have been here to the States - does anyone know of
good Chiroprators in Hungary that can treat scoliosis and if so, how do I
contact them for this family. I look forward to any suggestions. Thanks,
Ted Stearns, 
+ - ONLINE ORSZAGHAZ (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

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