Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 922
Copyright (C) HIX
1997-02-22
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: magyar stilisztika es helyesiras (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: magyar stilisztika es helyesiras (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Canada's Stand on NATO (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: FW: Re: Balogh hivatkozasat a 'fatherland'-re en is (mind)  78 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Canada's Stand on NATO (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Canada's Stand on NATO (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: FW: Re: Balogh hivatkozasat a 'fatherland'-re en is (mind)  52 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: magyar stilisztika es helyesiras (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello!
If you are using Windows 3.1 then the operating system is DOS. One of the thing
s that is set up in DOS are the Code Pages. Most people have an english code pa
ge set up but there is a multilingual code page which handles the extended ASCI
I character set including most of the diacritical marks. If this is set up then
 there should be no problems.
I was referring to Eudora Light which even under Windows 95 can not handle diac
ritical marks. The same applies to Agent 1.1 newsreader.

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Aniko Dunford[SMTP:]
Sent:  Wednesday, 19 February 1997 22:19
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: magyar stilisztika es helyesiras

Hello Denes & welcome aboard!  I am sure you'll enjoy the group.
t 05:07 PM 19/02/97 +1100, you wrote:
>Kedves listatarsak!
>Most probaltam ki <[...]> snip}
 Of course if you use Eudora as your mail client all this does not work.
[...]
I beg to differ Denes.  I am using Eudora (Pro), and your message yesterday
came through without any probs.  I think that perhaps the operating system
might be the culprit.

Regards,
Aniko
+ - Re: magyar stilisztika es helyesiras (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello!
I have found the same problem with, in particular, Eudora Light, I have not use
d it to receive Hungarian language posts but found that it would not accept typ
ing with diacritical marks. I will write to Eudora and ask them about it. 
I find that reading Hungarian without diacritical marks is very tiring because 
one has to fit them in based on the context. I well remember the time when afte
r typing something on a typewriter one had to go through the text and put in th
e diacritical marks. Luckily my father had, and I still have, a typewriter, act
ually made in Chemnicz, which had them. I have not used it for several years bu
t it is still in working condition. 

Regards
Dénes 



----------
From:  Eva S. Balogh[SMTP:]
Sent:  Wednesday, 19 February 1997 22:10
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: magyar stilisztika es helyesiras

At 10:19 PM 2/18/97 -0400, Aniko wrote:
>Agnes:
>
>The copy you received indeed looks strange below.  And, it resembles
>nothing at all like what I received this am.  In fact, my receipt of the
>post was absolutely perfectly legible in Hungarian with accents and all....
> not to mention it's content!  Bravo Denes!

        My copy was perfect also. I think it does depend on the e-mail
program. Mine is Eudora and letters I receive in Hungarian are perfect. But
I can't figure out how I could access accented letters. Maybe someone could
help.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Canada's Stand on NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thanks Joe, for the posting on Canada's position on NATO expansion.

Slovakia is planning, I understand, to hold a referendum like the one
mentioned here in regard to Hungary as a bad idea: the three questions
would be: Are you in favor of Slovakia joining NATO?  Are you in favor
of the positioning of nuclear weapons on Slovakia's territory?  Are you
in favor of establishing NATO military bases on Slovakia's territory?

I am not at all sure, that questions worded that way would win a majority
of Slovak votes.

Also, the news on the radio as I drove to work today included a big story
(NPR) about what they presented as a rising tide of US _opposition_ to the
concept of NATO enlargement, starting with George Kennan, and running through
former ambassador to the USSR Jack Matlock, and Michael Mandelbaum of
Johns Hopkins Universities School of Advanced International Studies, all
of whom say its a bad thing, it's re-drawing a line across Europe, hardening
divisions, etc. etc.

I thought it was pretty much a done deal, at least for the three top
states, but...??

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

+ - Re: FW: Re: Balogh hivatkozasat a 'fatherland'-re en is (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi, Eva and Everybody!

At 18:27 18/02/97 -0500, Eva wrote:
>At 10:17 PM 2/18/97 +0100, Miklos wrote, quoting Lippai and Dominus:
>>
>>>Kedves Dominus,
>>>     Balogh hivatkozasat a 'fatherland'-re en is eszrevettem.  A nemetek
>>>hasznaljak a 'fatherland'-t hazajukkal kapcsolatban.
>>
>>Wenn schon, Vaterland, bitte.
>>>
>>>> Eva, Eva, Eva,...
>>>> In Hungarian it's motherland. -- Anyaorszag, anyafold.
>>
>>???
>>
>>Just for the record : patrista, patriotizmus are part of th Hungarian
>>vocabulary. Pro patria...is part of the history. Patriots should
>>know that.
>
>       Oh, Miklos, you don't understand. This is part of dumping on Eva
>Balogh who is not patriotic enough. And one of the signs of her lack of
>patriotism is that in English she was talking about "fatherland" and not
>"motherland." Because Dominus whose English is on the most primitive level
>tells us that "motherland" is a perfectly OK English word but I, naughty,
>naughty girl, who calls every Hungarian a Nazi, deliberately used the word
>"fatherland," just to drive it home again that Hungary is a fascist country.
>And it goes on and on and on!! Never mind that no one ever uses the word
>"motherland" in English. Yes, Dominus is right: the word is in the
>dictionary but in capital letters it also says: FATHERLAND. And that in
>Webster's dictionary means: Look there, you dummy!

>        Eva Balogh

The original exchange sort of passed me by, since I don't spend a lot of
time translating the Hungarian messages (takes too long). However, Eva,
without overreacting (and without making any comments about the mental
stability of any of the various contributors to this discussion) - in
various languages, as I am sure you are aware, the homeland is referred to
as *fatherland* or *motherland.* (But, this expression is not generally used
in the U.S. or Canada. I am not sure about Britain. Do the Brits refer to a
fatherland or a motherland? I don't think so.)

I can remember distinctly when I was a kid, reading that the Russians
pointed out very pointedly that their expression for the homeland was
*motherland*, vice the "warlike" Germans' use of the term *fatherland.* It
would appear that the question is whether you are translating a Hungarian
word or using an expression that might be used in Hungary, in which case
*motherland* would appear to be more correct if that is the commonly used
Hungarian expression.

Now, commentators who write about Russia and wish to give as accurate a
flavour of the meaning of the Russian word, translate it as *motherland.* In
the case we are dealing with, I don't think the criterion should be what is
more *common* in English, but rather what gives a more accurate flavour of
the word in the original language.

By the way, Miklos' comment was made above that the word *patrista*,
*patriotismus* and the expression *pro patria* are known in Hungarian.
However, those are terms which were imported from Latin, as they were into
English. The result is that even though the literal meaning in Latin carries
a connotation of *Father*, that has pretty well been lost in English. The
word Patriot is defined in my Webster's New World Dictionary as "a person
who loves and loyally or zealously supports his own country." No mention of
*Fatherland* there. And, for what it's worth, my Webster's lists
*fatherland* as "a person's native land or, sometimes, the land of his
ancestors." Then for *motherland,* we have "1. the country of one's birth.
2. the country of one's ancestors."  There is no indication there that one
expression is preferred over the other - and there are no capital letters
used for either term in my Webster's!

Tisztelettel,

Johanne


Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: Canada's Stand on NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:55 PM 2/21/97 EDT, Hugh Agnew wrote:

<snip>
>Also, the news on the radio as I drove to work today included a big story
>(NPR) about what they presented as a rising tide of US _opposition_ to the
>concept of NATO enlargement, starting with George Kennan, and running
>through former ambassador to the USSR Jack Matlock, and Michael Mandelbaum
>of Johns Hopkins Universities School of Advanced International Studies, all
>of whom say its a bad thing, it's re-drawing a line across Europe,
>hardening divisions, etc. etc.
>
>I thought it was pretty much a done deal, at least for the three top
>states, but...??

I think it would be prudent to go slowly and cautiously with NATO expansion.
On the one hand, it can be argued that it's not important that Russia is
opposed to expansion.  After all, what can they do about it?  They couldn't
even defeat a small, ill-equiped, rebel army in Chechna.  On the other hand,
if Russia feels threatened and humiliated, similar to what Germany felt
after World War I, then the consequences may not be pleasant at all.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Canada's Stand on NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi, Joe!

At 09:21 22/02/97 -0500, Joe wrote, in response to Hugh:
<snip Hugh's comment>
>I think it would be prudent to go slowly and cautiously with NATO expansion.
>On the one hand, it can be argued that it's not important that Russia is
>opposed to expansion.  After all, what can they do about it?  They couldn't
>even defeat a small, ill-equiped, rebel army in Chechna.  On the other hand,
>if Russia feels threatened and humiliated, similar to what Germany felt
>after World War I, then the consequences may not be pleasant at all.
>
>Joe Szalai

I tend to think NATO membership would provide Hungary more security against
possible future Russian expansionism (which, sooner or later, is a good
possiblity, I think we would all agree), than she would have any other way.
So, I believe it would be a Good Thing from that point of view. On the other
hand, what I have seen of Madeleine Albright's comments suggests that the
U.S. is saying, "Oh, we'll limit the size of the forces in each country to
such-and-such a level," and so on and so forth. Which looks to me like the
U.S. is acting like the 800-pound gorilla again. Which begs the question of
whether Hungary and the other countries of Central Europe will in fact be
better off being under the thumb of the larger (and richer) countries of the
West, or whether they wouldn't in fact be better off in some form of
Danubian Confederation, arranging their affairs more in light of their
common interests.

BTW, when they join the European Union, will they not tend to lose the
advantage that they now have of being able to produce goods at lower cost
than the countries of the West? Isn't that the prime incentive they can now
offer to businesses which are consideration setting up plants there? What
was the experience of Spain in that regard? Was joining the European Union a
positive move for Spain, or has she suffered? I have not traveled to Spain
since she joined the Union, but I know she and Greece were probably the most
backward countries of Western Europe, and I have heard that now there is
virtually no difference (at least in the cost to travel there) between Spain
and the other European countries. I am wondering if Spain's economic
development has also reached the level of the other Western European
countries, and Hungary's experience if she joins can be projected to
parallel Spain's.

U:vo:zlettel,

Johanne/Janka
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 
+ - Re: FW: Re: Balogh hivatkozasat a 'fatherland'-re en is (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 10:12 AM 2/22/97 -0400, Johanne wrote:

>I can remember distinctly when I was a kid, reading that the Russians
>pointed out very pointedly that their expression for the homeland was
>*motherland*, vice the "warlike" Germans' use of the term *fatherland.* It
>would appear that the question is whether you are translating a Hungarian
>word or using an expression that might be used in Hungary, in which case
>*motherland* would appear to be more correct if that is the commonly used
>Hungarian expression.

        Thank you for this bit of information and for your whole letter on
the question of motherland versus fatherland. Most likely you are right. The
problem is that I actually never use the word "motherland" in English. It
sounds foreign to me and not quite right. However, the word "fatherland" fit
in very well with my sarcastic tone at the time. Because, indeed, I was
sarcastic. I am getting  terribly fed up with the overheated nationalism I
hear day in and day out on the Internet. I find it out of step with the
times. I am also convinced that a highly nationalistic government (a la Mr.
Torgyan's Smallholders) if it managed to get into power at the next
elections would be a calamity and would do terrible damage to Hungary.

        I have been a great supporter of European union from the very moment
I learned something about it--after I left Hungary, of course. The very
vision of a United Europe had absolutely thrilled me from the very first day
of my being aware of it and my only sorrow was that most likely Hungary and
her neighbors would never be a part of it. Now there is a possibility that
Hungary will be part of the European Union and I will be lucky enough to
witness it. It thrills me. At the same time I hear all this asinine (sorry
the expression but there is no other word to describe them) comments full of
nationalitistic drivel (again, no other word exists for it) and I get very,
very angry. It reminds me of Avvakum of Russia or the ayatollahs of Iran.
Those of you who are not familiar with Russian history: Avvakum was a priest
who in reaction to the westernization attempts of Peter the Great began a
religious movement of dissent. I see a fairly strong resemblance between
Avvakum and the ayatollahs, on the one hand, and the outdated and revived
nationalism paraded around on the lists of the Internet, on the other.
Nineteenth-century poets are dragged out of their graves with moving lines
(the most famous being: "itt elned es halnod kell," meaning you must live
here and must die here) and turned against those who left the country during
the dictatorship. I must say that I was delighted to see that someone
reminded the super-patriots that there is another famous line in Hungarian
literature: "haza ott van, ahol jog is van..." (the homeland is where there
is the rule of law).

        It is late and I have to get up very early tomorrow, so I must
close. However, I am most willing to discuss the matter further next week
when I have a bit more time.

        Best, Eva

P.S. I see that Johanne also wrote a letter on the NATO expansion. Later I
will be responding to that one as well.

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